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CECE
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AD is WRONG

At least he writes so I go and read it again, and another time. But his beliefs are wrong. The entire idea of high end hi fi, IS to bring it home. His listening to clock radio amplifiers, with names that may make him think they have magic ckts? I am now listening at very low vol levels, with teh 4800 W amps, ya know the pre amp has a volume control (mine has bal control also, he needs to buy the good stuff ) Even 4800 W ability helps when listening at low levels, the amps control, the bass detail is STILL there at low levels, 6:30 AM levels. I can clearly hear teh bass patterns, with the snare drum snap riding on top, while Alvin Lee's guitar just sounds great on top of all that. I thinks maybe all these trained listeners, are lost in something, that doesn't make sense. And Ya can't get DETAIL, REALISIM at any level, without the drivers to do it. With any sense of realism clarity and detail, and liveness. What's humanity got to do with listening for realism, see, he is throwing in some terminology that means nothing, but to make soemthing seem so complicated and sureal. It's either REAL or it's not, 10 W ain;'t doing it, at any levels, with speakers that are basicly a midrange. Esssshhh. Myabe I'ved listened more than these trained listeners, and I know what live, real, slam, impact is, these guys only want some limited playback at home, with it's sheetrock and wood, what an excuse!!!!! I guess HDTV is a non issue, it's trying to bring you the ORIGINAL, REALISM, LIFELIKE, sure looks much better than teh ole' 32" CRT analog system 42" HDTV smokes analog CRT. But then who wants lifelike realistic clean, clear PICTURES at home, ya gotta go to the river, and to the jungles, sheetrock walls don't allow it. Watts make it happen, at all levels, so do drivers, AD is WRONG. And he don't like those super efficient horn speakers, yet that's what he needs to get any sound with a 10 watt clock radio amplifier. So the next writing from AD, and he claims that the music is so real, he gets chills, etc, so lifelike, I'll know, it ain't true, cus' he don't want that at home...Acoustimas AM-5 is for him. It's driverless, highly distorted, non lifelike, and won't play at realistic levels. How can ya be a writer for hi fi hi end, when ya don't want it live at home, why bother then? Rember teh Beatles first concert in Shea Stadium, i do, underpowered, no speakers, it did still make teh crowd go into a frenzy, but ya couldn't hear anything, no watts, no drivers....after that the live systems began to be created by people who realized, ya need drivers, and watts. Those damn pro sound people, how dare they make large speakers, and lotsa watts

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

AD is wrong?! Is that why he has had an ongoing column for 15 years and you have not?

You rant and rave about the exact same crap with every post. Your copy and post style has no new thought and is not provocative, merely insulting. AD is entertaining and provocative if for no other reason than you must think and absorb what he is saying and what he is thinking and challenging the reader to comprehend. AD forces the reader to move outside of their likely comfort zone not by cajoling, commanding, insulting and ignoring all opposing views but by presenting new ways to look an the object. That is unless the reader simply doesn't have the capacity to consider any view point other than their own narrowly conceived distortion.

You would think when all the world (on this forujm at least) says, "Enough, already! What you value is not relevant to the world I live in. What you value is ridiculous!", most folks would take the clue and rethink what they believe. If after some thought, you come away convinced you are "right", that's fine. Listeners believing they are as right as anyone else is exactly what brought small wattage amplifiers, thin cables and single drivers back into this hobby. Listeners who heard more than two qualities in reproduced music did these things. Those who closed their ears and closed their minds did not. You cannot come to the conclusion everyone else is wrong just because you wish to be "right". AD is swimming upstream against the tide of massively high powered amplifiers and monstrous speakers that ignore the music but he's not off in a small pond playing by himself and insisting all who don't join him in the mud are fools. AD invites criticism and that is his value to the hobby. His views evolve and offer an alternative to the mindless thumping and ranting of those who have no value for music but only for what reproduces the music. AD has more than two qualities he asks of a component system and is willing to accept more ideas as he hears more live and reproduced music. AD's greatest quality is his ability to accept new qualities with an open mind and fresh concepts. AD admits to hearing live music on a regular basis. I only see you, dup, telling us your system reproduces live music. You have no references, dup, while AD's references are real and place the music above the products.

dup, I saw the articles and, of course, immediately thought of you. I intend to copy and paste them in reply to your posts every time you go on a copy and paste rant about watts and slam and clock radios.

You are wrong, dup. And you just won't listen to anyone else to find out why. You are wrong because you are a zealot! You are wrong because you believe anyone who doesn't think as you think is wrong. You are wrong when you dismiss all things "audiophile" and further dismiss anyone who believes the things an audiophile believes, even just a bit.

Being wrong is a minor offense. Copy and pasting that you are right over and over and over just in an attempt to convince others you are right is far more of a crime against thought than being wrong could ever manage. You are far more guilty of no longer having the ablity to think, discuss and to accept the opinions of others than AD could ever be wrong about mono and LP's. The fact you started this thread - just another chance to rant and rave I suppose - is proof of what I'm saying.

Now, why did you start this thread? You're going to get slammed and how are you going to respond? By more copy and paste rants about watts and slam and radios? Blah, blah, blah!!! What purpose does that serve? If you want to discuss this, then you had better be ready to listen and present real commentary and not just more dupisms as you've aleady posted in your op. We've read them. We don't agree with them. And we don't need to read them again! Real commentary, dup, or shut up.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

TAS talks about similar item, when talking bout the Magneplanr speakers, large driver area, lotsa power, only way to create teh illusion of live music. The flat Magneplanrs are a large surface area, hmmmm, some years ago, they loved Magneplanrs here. Hi end is about hi fi, lifelike reproduction, why do reviewers keep trying to convince readers it's possible with no power, tiny clock radio speakers. Then Stereophile ain't about real hi fi hi end, only hi prices, not real lifelike reproduction. What then is high end all about? Maybe JGH is right? Hmmmmm

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

How open does a mind need to be, before it's considred empty? The experts, I've listened to, tell me it can't be done without size, I've had it both ways, size wins. Watts win. How do you take a full piano (see the size of it's sound board) and expect that to come out of 2 mini drivers, as sounding like the piano that was recorded? That's what I'm talking about, not just being negative, so far no one has the answer, do you? What 6" speaker sounds like a piano?

drtat
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Re: AD is WRONG

I dont know if i fully understand this topic, but isn't a super high quality headphone with small drivers,(true, the may be a different type of driver...) going to have a better sound
than many speakers with higher watts? I think it depends what
Your Listening to, How your listening to it, and what you want
from you experience.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

If you look at how headphones are applied, look at teh area it's filling, compared to speakers, they are within a inch of your ears, if not in ear types. Headphones also don't give teh full live event, since the body is not getting exposed to certain freqs, like a live event. Headphones do not make it real, they are good for hearing details, but don't make it real.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG


Quote:
TAS talks about similar item, when talking bout the Magneplanr speakers, large driver area, lotsa power, only way to create teh illusion of live music.

Sorry, dup, I think you'll have to supply me with the article where anyone at TAS suggested "large driver area, lotsa power" was the only way to create the live illusion. It is one way, dup, not the only way. That's what you keep missing. There is more than one way to accomplish the sense of live music in your home. But you will have to have more than two preferences for how you hear that music.

AD is exactly right about reproducing music. To suggest otherwise is simply ignoring any dissenting opinions. That's the problem you have, dup. Your way is not the only way. What you value is not what others value. That you've had it both ways and prefer the way you now listen is not a reference point, it is your preference. I prefer my way.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG


Quote:
The experts, I've listened to ...

There you have it; don't you? The very nature of the discussion. If you only listen to those who agree with you, you won't find much new information to move your opinions. That you believe AD is wrong because he doesn't agree with you is just another way of saying you aren't listening to what AD has to say.


Quote:
How do you take a full piano (see the size of it's sound board) and expect that to come out of 2 mini drivers, as sounding like the piano that was recorded? That's what I'm talking about, not just being negative, so far no one has the answer, do you? What 6" speaker sounds like a piano?

You just don't get it, do you? If you listen to a rock group, do you have to have a stage width that's 100' across to think you're hearing a rock group? Come on, dup, you're not that dumb! I heard what to me represented a piano playing in my room last night. I've heard a similar piano and I know what it takes to recreate that piano in my room. If you don't want to listen through the speakers I prefer, that's fine. But don't insist I listen through yours.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

This month's TAS review of the Magneplanar speaker, talking bout' how it's a large driver surface, makes for more relaistic lifelike instuments.
But TAS is as goofy in the same things as Stereophile. This month they have a $27K CD only player, made out of some clear plastic, top load teh Cd then put a top on it, and of course it's this month's marvel, but at least they compared it to something else, and it was an EMMLABS single unit player. And of course it was better, and of course it has tubes, same senario, same mountain of nonsense. Different authors, $27K for a single disc CD only player....uh huh, hi end, no just hi price I suspect TAS and Stereophile will merge, just like Audio and Stereo Review did, they have teh same audiences, trying to sell teh same sometimes really insane products, that cannot be taken for real, as far as hi fi, hi end reproduction, mostly just stuff to put on display as art work, not sound reproduction. They offer no technical expertise from what i get out of em. ..they too need blind tests, to really give an accurate test of the things they perceive as differences in sound, they also make it seem like it's so plainly audible, bet if they didn't know which unit was playing, they'd be stumped. Like blind beer taste tests.....just on VOOM HD Treasure channel, the guy couldn't do any right in different types of beer. Matter of fact, we did one years ago, and out of 10 people, Mickey Beer under $3 six pack was everyones favorite, over some pricey highly marketed types, over there knowing the CD only player costs, $27K, I'm sure made it sound better, than a "cheap" yeah, rioiight EMMLABS CDSA player, they also have a full page ad for a CHEAP Zanden with it's non oversampling and, no modern up to date ckts, a mere $2,500. they actually are making it seem better it has no oversampling, no digital filters, uses some obsolete Philips chip...pretty slick, what's old is new again, teh original Japanese CD players where analog filters, non over sampling Philips created teh better system with digital filter, oversampling, then all the Japanese units adopted it and gave it their own names for marketing. 21st century, now a company is selling obsolete concepts as more "musical". What won't an audiophile not beleive?

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

What?! You've already run out of semi-intelligent comments and you're back to blah, blah, blah so soon? Copy - paste. Copy - paste. Copy - paste. Same old crap from dup. That you drink $3 a six pack beer says more than any other argument you could have made, dup.

Dudley is dead on correct.

Quote:
"The next time someone tells me that they know that the realistic reproduction of music in the home requires

1) 24big/192khz (or whatever)
2) perfectly flat frequency response
3) bass down to 20hz
4) 5.1 channels - or even 2.0 channels
5) High power (I was listening with a 15W Shindo amp) or
6) or any other single thing,

I will do my best to smile, to be humble,

And this month's column goes further to refute your two personal preferences, dup. Face it, dup, there are things a six watt amplifier and a single driver speaker can do to reproduce music that you will never appreciate. One terrific channel is better than a dozen crappy ones. SACD's are, unfortunately, dead while LP's are alive and kicking. You've burned out your hearing and you've burned out your brain. If only you could smile and be humble at least we could pat your head and say what once was - wasn't all that interesting.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

Can't reproduce a piano soundboard with a midrange driver, being used as full range, neither can it do it with clock radio amplfieirs. You may be an audio samlesman, but you can't sell me on the fact that what you wanna beleive is impossible. I have neitehr burned out, or lost my hearing, it only gets better. You might think those pianos at Toys R US are full size? those kids pianos are not Steiinways...there toys. Don't think that is what a piano should soun like. Nor the Les Paul ain't that plastic Chinese you can playa too toy. Can't get Less coming out of a midrange only speaker, and have it sounding liek a guitar, that I've heard many times at live shows....impossible, can't sell me, I have to walk out of your store of fairy tale beleifs. Why are standup bass's so large, cus they have to be, otherwise, they could use a violin to reproduce teh bass notes, hmmmm, why are speakers any different? Why are teh pipes on a pipe organ so large, cus they have to be, not just to look cool. Why are teh physics of sound different in your store, or your world of speakers? Under powered, under sized, is not hi fi, it's a clock radio.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

AW geez, dup, you cannot carry on a discussion past two posts!

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

"The next time someone tells me that they know that the realistic reproduction of music in the home requires

1) 24big/192khz (or whatever)
2) perfectly flat frequency response
3) bass down to 20hz
4) 5.1 channels - or even 2.0 channels
5) High power (I was listening with a 15W Shindo amp) or
6) or any other single thing,

I will do my best to smile, to be humble,

dup, if you're not burned out, it's because your pilot never got lit.

Start a new thread about how cables are rip off, dup, there's nothing left here.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

You are not an experienced listener, you sold teh stuff, but so what? Just last week as a matter o' fact talking with my piano playing acquantance, we got to talk about watts, speakers etc. He uses some older speakers, he doesn't understand how some tiny speaker can possibly reproduce teh sound of his Steinway, you might have a magic room. cus' midrange only ain't teh full piano spectrum. At levels that a piano does. Even a single instrument like a guitar is usually done with a cabinet of 4X12, for some room filling sound. And I'm not talking bout' loud levels, just a full body soudn of teh guitar, you may not get it, maybe you spent too many years listening to what you stuff did in teh store, you need live music. You are not getting it are you?

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

What am I not getting? That you talk in circles and have no logic behind what you post? Oh, believe me, dup, I got that along time ago.

So, you were talking to someone else who agrees with you. Your "piano playing acquanitance"? Why not talk to someone who doesn't agree with you? Or read what someone says when they opinions differ from yours? Oh, yeah, I know the answer to that. Closed mind! Can ... not ... process ... new ............ information. ARRRRRRRGH!


Quote:
Even a single instrument like a guitar is usually done with a cabinet of 4X12, for some room filling sound.

You are kidding me; right? What world do you live in, dup? You've obviously never heard a single violin fill the space of a 5,000 seat symphony hall. And, therefore, you have no reference for anything real. Until you do you are just another ninnyhammer with a loud hifi and bad taste.

Why can't you get it through your skull you don't know what you're talking about when you make stupid statements such as, "Why are standup bass's so large, cus they have to be, otherwise, they could use a violin to reproduce teh bass notes, hmmmm, why are speakers any different? Why are teh pipes on a pipe organ so large, cus they have to be, not just to look cool. Why are teh physics of sound different in your store, or your world of speakers?"

Look, dup, answer this one - and I can't wait for the BS you crank out. How many sources of sound are there in that upright bass? Ask your piano playing acquaintance how many locations of sound there are on a piano. Should you have an 88 way speaker to make a piano sound like a piano? How many drivers does it require to reproduce a human voice that comes from one location? I doubt you've ever heard a non-amplified guitar, but let's assume you know they exist. How many guitars are there when it makes sound? Is it a two way? Three way? Four way guitar? How many capacitors does it have in it to make it a four way guitar? Now, what does a single driver have to do with all of these instruments? Think, dup. No BS. No blah, blah, blah. Do this without attacking me or my system. Just try to answer the questions with some logic. Because I'm not going to play this game for long. Either you start discussing this like a real person might or you can forget me going along for your amusment.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

there is no one driver that can do all freqs at all vol levels , been a fact of hi fi since day one. A good well designed hall useing the room to magnify the sound, so it is heard off the stage. What single drive mfg makes one that can do the entire spectrum of sound? If you got it, better patent it, it's been worked on for decades, still can't be done. MAtter o fact I routinly hear LIVE acoustic guitar, live electric guitars. Drums mic'd and not mic'd. Bass guitar on different systems..There is no one driver that is gonna reproduce teh effects of an entire band, with different insturments, at any levels, low or high, yeah, ya hear sound out of a clock radio, but that is all it is, sound, like a car radio, it sure ain't what ya get live. I've heard live violin, live this or that, it's not happening at home on a single driver speaker, nope. you may be making your brain think this is a violin, but I've even heard amplified violin, what a great concept. Electric violin, makes hearing them even better. Curved Air used them all the time. They came up with electric insturment so they could be HEARD, over other insturments in live venues, cus acoustics usually don't help in different enviomrents, like some special built hall, they are not a prevelant as the poor enviorments where lots live music is done, we all don't have opera houses to attend, but House of Blues sure look like one, but they also mic it, and electrify, done right, ya hear everything, subtle nuances, with no boom, glare, or shrill....stacks of flying speakers, no single driver, it's impossible. Jeeez, they even added coaxial tweeters to car radio speakers to make em batter, cus the single cone can't do it all.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG


Quote:
Now, what does a single driver have to do with all of these instruments? Think, dup. No BS. No blah, blah, blah.

So, you can't answer that question, eh?

bertdw
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Re: AD is WRONG

Here's a thought. Perhaps a speaker's driver surface area would have to be the size of the piano's sounding board for perfect reproduction, if you were sitting right in front of the piano. But picture the piano on stage in a concert hall, fifty feet or so away from your seat. Now picture a six or eight inch speaker ten feet in front of you. Would it not appear to completely obstruct your view of the piano? See what I'm getting at?

Let's talk about wave launch. Yes, the piano emits a very large wave front in all directions. But only a small portion, a narrow angle, reaches the listener. Isn't this fraction the only part of the sound wave the speaker must reproduce?

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

If you are only hearing that tiny part of the "wave", it gonna sound like that kids piano, clnk clink clink, how do you shrink the surface area of several instruments and think now since it's coming out of one undersized speaker, this somethow is what the original stuff sounds like. Honey I shrunk the sound.......how do you transfer the acoustic energy into a few mini watts of electrical energy, then convert it back to acoustic energy, from something with a surface area nothing like the original? It cannot possible be sounding like the original!!! Unless you are deaf, drunk, or never heard live music! that's just a piano, now add some 3 guitars, drums, maybe an organ, and a harmonica, yupper, that will all come out of a mini undersized driver, with no watts behind it, and it's gonna sound like the original performance, you gotta be not thinking here!

bertdw
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Re: AD is WRONG

No, think again. You're only hearing part of the wave in the concert hall, and it doesn't sound like a toy piano. All the speaker has to do is recreate the vibrations of air that reached your ears in the hall, from a few feet away.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

Good Lord, dup! How do you come up with this crap? Your speakers aren't the size of the entire band so give this one up.

And don't get side tracked here, dup. You started this thread. That means you cannot ignore questions just by letting them get pushed back in the queue.

The question was, "What does a single driver have to do with all of these instruments?"

Answer please without any copy/paste blah, blah, blah.

rvance
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Re: AD is WRONG

One of the most important pieces of equipment in any system is the listener's brain. The music you hear is filtered through a lifetime of experience and what meaning and emotions those experiences evoke. Lacking said brain, you can try to compensate with bigger speakers and bigger watts, but all you will hear is highly amplified noise. To see what that noise looks like, read DUP's posts.

DUP, it's guys like you that give self-important, ignorant, belligerent blowhards a bad name.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

Not true!

Self-important, ignorant, belligerent blowhards look pretty good alongside dup.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

Another day has passed, AD is STILL WRONG. When the physics of it all changes, then that will be the day any of you are correct. But till then, a several piece band, or a grand piano, ain't coming out of a 6" speaker, driven by 35 watss of lifeless distoreted tube watts, and gonna convince me, yeah, that's the piaano I recall at the live event. Honey I shrunk the piano.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is WRONG

Another day has passed and you still haven't answered my question, just more copy/paste blah, blah, blah.

Honey, I shrunk my brain. I've fallen down and I can't answer a simple question.

LOL, dup, LOL.

CECE
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Re: AD is WRONG

Who can ever fathom a question, from your babling? What question, you answer my question, how do you get a 8 foot piano coming out of a 6" midrange, and you convince yourself, that's a piano, and it sounds like the live one. Then add drums, some guitars, a bass, vocals, yupper, all that coming out of a 6" driver, man that's LIVE, are you goofy? Even a midget with tiny ears could tell it's not, and a 6" speaker to a midget might be like a 10" to a full sized person...Even a midget won't beleive it's a real band or piano.....Are you smaller than a midget?

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AD is right. So is everyone else.

The sound of an unamplified several piece band or a grand piano is not going to come out of any speaker, regardless of size, type or amplification used.

Accordingly it comes down to what characteristics of reproduced sound is important to you.

Pick your poison and enjoy.

However, merely because you have made your choice does not make the choice of others wrong. Others may value characteristics of sound which you happen to find unimportant.

CECE
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Re: AD is right. So is everyone else.

Actually yes it will, you just ain't heard it yet.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is RIGHT


Quote:
Who can ever fathom a question, from your babling? What question ...

Bad form, dup, ignoring something that is in plain sight and has been repeated twice. Is this thread getting too tough for you?


Quote:
... how do you get a 8 foot piano coming out of a 6" midrange, and you convince yourself, that's a piano, and it sounds like the live one.

Good grief, dup, the inverse of the way you capture the sound of a 8" piano when you record it with a single 3/4" diaphragm microphone.

OK, your turn. Answer my question.

CECE
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Re: AD is RIGHT

I knew that absurd statement was coming. So listen back on a 3/4" speaker, sounds real, don't it? They also have different mics for different insturments, same story, one mic can't possibly cover the entire spectrum. And you said it, inverse, the 3/4" mic is not trying to move a room full of air. Just micing a drum set to sound good needs a few different mics, otherwise it's just a blur. Cus no one mic does the entire range. If you want to hear all teh subtle nuances, but if playback is just on a 6" speaker, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how it's done.

Jan Vigne
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Re: AD is RIGHT

You know something, dup, you are just too stupid to live. You know nothing of the history of this art and hobby. You only hear what you want to hear and ignore the rest that would pose a problem to your "theories". You can't even answer the simplest question.

"The next time someone tells me that they know that the realistic reproduction of music in the home requires

1) 24big/192khz (or whatever)
2) perfectly flat frequency response
3) bass down to 20hz
4) 5.1 channels - or even 2.0 channels
5) High power (I was listening with a 15W Shindo amp) or
6) or any other single thing,

I will do my best to smile, to be humble."

Sorry, it's impossible to be humble when in the presence of such overwhelming ignorance.

smejias
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Re: AD is WRONG

Okay, despite our best efforts, this thread has become useless and ugly, I think.

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