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John Atkinson
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9/11 Remembered

On this ninth anniversary, I would like to think that Congress will finally vote to help those New Yorkers suffering from poor health as a result of their willingness to help others on that terrible day: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/470/.

"Je me souviens..." as our neighbors to the North say.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

jazzfan
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
On this ninth anniversary, I would like to think that Congress will finally vote to help those New Yorkers suffering from poor health as a result of their willingness to help others on that terrible day: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/470/.

"Je me souviens..." as our neighbors to the North say.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

No they will not since that would mean adding to the deficit. Remember that the only thing the deficit hawks will allow that will add to the deficit is a tax cut for the wealthy. I just love political logic.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

I am afraid they will not because it could/will turn out to be like agent orange, or worse, asbestos law and anyone within 100 miles of NYC on 911 with a health problem will apply for relief.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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I am afraid they will not because it could/will turn out to be like agent orange, or worse, asbestos law and anyone within 100 miles of NYC on 911 with a health problem will apply for relief.

You raise a terrific point.

I have two buddies I go shooting with and then out to dinner each week, and they both skew way to the right.

I, obviously, skew left.

The three of us agree on many many topics, and when a situation like JIMV mentions comes up, it points out one point of left/right divergence I have noticed:

If I gave you an example of a fully healthy firefighter who tried to rescue people in the building and was exposed to smoke, ash, and whatever else was in the air at Ground Zero, then told you how the government was refusing him care for myriad health problems he has suffered since...I'd like to think we'd all agree he should be given coverage. I bet all of us would vote on the side of compassion and the Golden Rule when we were given specifics.

But then, we have to start considering the issue from a broader point of view, like JIMV points out. Which made think of the liberal/conservative difference...

Liberals tend to make their errors on the side of the system potentially being taken advantage of, as JIMV points out. Their concern is not that someone may "get away" with something, but that as many people as possible have protection.

Conservatives tend to make their errors on the side of not enough people getting coverage, and then liberals point out examples of why that point of view fails to protect those who are deserving.

It's a fine line, with each side racing to examples of inappropriate benefit or inappropriate denial of benefit when general arguing starts, but I bet the group of us would do a fine job together deciding over 99.9% of the cases.

I hope that was not inflammatory, and no flames at anyone, especially today.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

On this horrific day, if you do not think that what all those people went through deserves something from each and every one of us....then think twice about dialing 911.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
On this ninth anniversary, I would like to think that Congress will finally vote to help those New Yorkers suffering from poor health as a result of their willingness to help others on that terrible day: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/470/.

"Je me souviens..." as our neighbors to the North say.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Thank you John for posting this. We should be proud of the volunteers that gave up their time and money to help in all relief efforts.

This especially hit home for me, for I am a retired firefighter of 21 years. 363 Firefighters lost their lives. And yes, many relief workers sacrificed their health to work amongst the rubble, dust, and ash to search and rescue trapped people and search for victims that died in this horrendous act of terror.

Mark Evans

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
I have two buddies I go shooting with

HOLD THE PHONE

you shoot? for fun? well dont that just beat all! your cool points just tripled. we need to get together and put some ammo downrange!

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
I have two buddies I go shooting with

HOLD THE PHONE

you shoot? for fun? well dont that just beat all! your cool points just tripled. we need to get together and put some ammo downrange!

I take my kids and wife, too.

Pisses me off that "liberals" are supposed to hate guns.

Sorry for the thread drift.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
On this ninth anniversary, I would like to think that Congress will finally vote to help those New Yorkers suffering from poor health as a result of their willingness to help others on that terrible day: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/470/.

"Je me souviens..." as our neighbors to the North say.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Thank you John for posting this. We should be proud of the volunteers that gave up their time and money to help in all relief efforts...

Not only Americans are proud of what the policemen and firefighters did. Not only Americans cried on that day. Not only Americans felt a tremendous loss on that very sad day. I myself still think of that horrific act, and wonder how hatred can grow to such a point. I still don't understand.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

This is what happens when you have supposedly "religious" people who are only self-annoited and self-appointed create a spirituality based on lies and mistatements. The followers of Jim Jones found out the hard way as well. We have many of these same people now in America as well. They manage to get ample TV time.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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This is what happens when you have supposedly "religious" people who are only self-annoited and self-appointed create a spirituality based on lies and mistatements. The followers of Jim Jones found out the hard way as well. We have many of these same people now in America as well. They manage to get ample TV time.

Wow!!! Very well stated and unfortunately all too true.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
On this ninth anniversary, I would like to think that Congress will finally vote to help those New Yorkers suffering from poor health as a result of their willingness to help others on that terrible day: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/470/.

No they will not since that would mean adding to the deficit.

Adding to the deficit does increase the danger of inflation, but with interest rates about as low as they can go and both consumer purchases and industrial production close to stalling, the possibility of inflation is low.


Quote:
Remember that the only thing the deficit hawks will allow that will add to the deficit is a tax cut for the wealthy. I just love political logic.

Well, it's an election year, and the "Horatio Alger" myth runs rampant - "If the rich get tax cuts, so will I when _I_ become rich" - except that, as a recent article in The Economist pointed out, social mobility is lower in the US than people might think.

John Atkinson
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Jim Tavegia
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Once a country stops making things it will put its citizens in great peril. There will always be a large percentage of the population that is not driven by education, but requires blue-collar employment regardless...unless you want the government to take care of them. For want of a cheap VCR we have done it to ourselves. I deal with those who "won't" every day in school.

Now we have hundreds of thousands of college educated teachers out of work putting more and more people into a labor pool already overflowing. We graduate throusands more every June with little or no prospects of employment.

We bail out car companies full of supposedly educated people who have no marketing sense to build cars that people need and want, and yet people at the top of those companies take home millions each year in compensation, and continue to do so as the government keeps them on "life-support". They repay loans with more loans and we do it because we really don't know what to do and do not want put thousands more blue-collar workers out of work in an election year. My grandfather was one of those people who just wanted to work with his hands and resisted company offers to go into the "office". He would be unenmployed if alive today. Luckily he was born in 1899 and working with your hands was what most people did.

We deflect attention from our real problems by forcing Govt. Health Care that has done absolutely nothing so far. My wife's involvement with our new free health clinic has done more in the last 6 months in caring for uninsured people than this government has to date. Her ability to coordinate all the volunteers has generated over 25 doctors and nurses to donate their time and talents to the cause for a free clinic that operates 2 days per week. There is such a need that they are booked until late December already.

We pay nearly $3.00 for gas becuase we are buyers not producers and spend way to much money just getting from place to place and need the latest and greatest cell phone for God only knows what. I often feel bad that I waste time worrying about whether 2496 is better than redbook, like it is really THAT important. I am guessing that all of this is really a defense mechanism to keep us from thinking about how bad things really are. I am sorry to think that I do see the glass less than half-full right now. The level of hate around our globe is staggering to think about.

We are leaving our children a mess. We should be ashamed.

Freako
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

I can't say that I disagree, and sadly the tendency is the same in most of the Western world.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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I can't say that I disagree.

Me neither. The ongoing impoverishment of the middle class is the biggest threat to our society's stability. The first Henry Ford, no socialist, justified his revolutionary $5/day wage on the grounds that if he paid his workers more, the more of them could afford to buy the products they made.

When you enrich the middle class, they spend that money on consumer goods which in turn increases demand and incentivizes companies to invest in plant and workforce to make more of those goods, which in turn increases demand for those goods. It's a classic positive feedback mechanism. The decades when this was operating most effectively - the 1950s, '60s, and '90s - were when the overall economy boomed.

By contrast, when you impoverish the middle class, as happened in the 1970s and in this past decade, the feedback now works against the health of the economy. People who have lost their jobs or who have negative equity sit on their checkbooks and companies have no incentive to increase production, even if they still manufactured their goods in the US.

Before you right-wingers jump on me, please note that this isn't a Left-Right matter - the Left historically had no use for the middle class, whom they disparaged as the "petit bourgeousie" any more than did the aristocracy, who dismissed the middle class as "being in trade."

It is argued that by reducing taxes etc on the wealthy - so-called Reaganomics - that will also lead to economic activity that will stimulate the overall economy. But there aren't enough of the rich to buy enough consumer goods to start the positive feedback mechanism.

This leads to price inflation. In the audio sector, for example, the effect is to force companies to focus on making small numbers of very expensive components to appeal to the shrinking but increasingly affluent customer base. They thus maintain their gross revenue but sustain it with lower production. The danger is that it becomes an upward death spiral as those companies increasingly become disconnected from their traditional middle-class customer base.

John Atkinson
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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Liberals tend to make their errors on the side of the system potentially being taken advantage of, as JIMV points out. Their concern is not that someone may "get away" with something, but that as many people as possible have protection.

Conservatives tend to make their errors on the side of not enough people getting coverage, and then liberals point out examples of why that point of view fails to protect those who are deserving.

Well said, Buddha. I am just saddened and angered when, in order to minimize the possibility of there being some who unfairly benefit, those who are deserving are denied help, particularly when the latter didn't themselves make such a cost/benefit analysis when going to the aid of the stricken. Who was it who said something about "to give but not to count the cost"?

John Atkinson
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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...Who was it who said something about "to give but not to count the cost"?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

A quick search reveals that it was Saint Ignatius of Loyola, taken from the prayer:


Quote:
Teach us, good Lord,
to serve you as you deserve,
to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labour and not to ask for any reward,
save that of knowing that we do your will.

Amen.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
...Who was it who said something about "to give but not to count the cost"?

A quick search reveals that it was Saint Ignatius of Loyola, ...

Thanks Jazzfan. Appreciate the clarification, though my question was really rhetorical.

John Atkinson
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(Survivor of many years of Catholic Sunday School)

jazzfan
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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Thanks Jazzfan. Appreciate the clarification, though my question was really rhetorical.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
(Survivor of many years of Catholic Sunday School)

I realized that the question was rhetorical but the quote was so fitting that I felt that further clarification was warranted.

I've been enjoying this thread since many statements which might under different circumstances incite an flame war have been posted with nary a whimper of protest. If only our leaders and many of their followers would learn the art of listening then perhaps our public discourse would become something other the mess it has become.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

We should also give a tip of the hat to the hundreds of Ironworkers and others in the construction trades, who at great personal risk, crawled down in that hole and enabled the rescue workers to do their jobs.

As a former Ironworker, I know how and why they did what they did.

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
I can't say that I disagree.

When you enrich the middle class, they spend that money on consumer goods which in turn increases demand and incentivizes companies to invest in plant and workforce to make more of those goods, which in turn increases demand for those goods. It's a classic positive feedback mechanism. The decades when this was operating most effectively - the 1950s, '60s, and '90s - were when the overall economy boomed.

I agree 100% John. Unfortunately the Obama administration doesn't.

Question is, who is determining who "the rich" are and who is determining who "the poor" are?

Who gave government bureacrats the power to determine who is poor and who is rich?

When government got into the business of dividing its citizens into classes, the result created class warfare/division amongst the people. This tool of class warfare has empowered the government tremendously, and created a class system by the which they have used to get elected. FDR was a prime example of this for he started the entitlement system that has forced a continuous rise in taxation for the citizens of the U.S. Actually, you can go back further to Woodrow Wilson. Both parties Republican and Democrat are guilty. More so, the Democrats.

The sad thing is the Obama administration, who has currently defined "the rich" as anyone making $250,000/year or more will get thier taxes raised at the first of the year if they let the Bush tax cuts expire. Obama made it clear that people earning $250,000 per year will get a tax increase under his proposal.

In context, a small business owner who GROSSES $250,000/year will have their taxes raised. The problem is... considering overhead, imbedded taxes, business costs, salaries, liability insurance, regulatory fees, etc;. Said business owner will not bring home $250,000/yr. but much less. On top of that, the small business owner has his own personal bills, home mortagage, insurances, grocery bills, and the rest of his families needs to take care of.

After the Obama administration raises his taxes because the business owner is considered "the rich" because he GROSSED $250,000 he will have no alternative but to let some of his oe her employees go, or worst case scenario..he or she will have to sell his business or just completely go out of business altogether.

Small businesses are the engine of the U.S. economy and the largest sector of the free market. Taxing small business owners making(grossing)$250,000/yr IS destructive to small businesses and the workers they employ.

Which is confusing... Obama talks about "helping small businesses." What?
Obama talks of a tax cut for the middle class...What he fails to realize is that small business owners ARE the middle class. So at best, he speaks in oxymoronic terms.

It shouldn't come as a shock really, if you consider the fact Obama has never ran a small business, nor had to make a payroll or been responsible for employess as a business owner. The only logical answer is: Obama is ideologically driven in terms of wealth redistribution no matter the cost to the American small business owner or his/her employees.

This is about government expansion and government empowerment plain and simple. Just look at the legislation that has transpired in the last 20 months while the Democrats have controlled the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives and it is overtly obvious.

Great thread,
Mark Evans

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

First my deepest apologies to JA for helping to turn what should have been a short and non-political thread into a lengthy and highly politicized one. However I cannot just sit by as more completely unfounded nonsense gets repeated by my fellow forum members. You see one of the many differences between this forum and Fox News is that here there are individuals who do not take the drivel that is spouted on that "news" channel at face value and know how to find out what is really going on. So here goes:


Quote:
In context, a small business owner who GROSSES $250,000/year will have their taxes raised. The problem is... considering overhead, imbedded taxes, business costs, salaries, liability insurance, regulatory fees, etc;. Said business owner will not bring home $250,000/yr. but much less. On top of that, the small business owner has his own personal bills, home mortagage, insurances, grocery bills, and the rest of his families needs to take care of.

After the Obama administration raises his taxes because the business owner is considered "the rich" because he GROSSED $250,000 he will have no alternative but to let some of his oe her employees go, or worst case scenario..he or she will have to sell his business or just completely go out of business altogether.

Small businesses are the engine of the U.S. economy and the largest sector of the free market. Taxing small business owners making(grossing)$250,000/yr IS destructive to small businesses and the workers they employ.

Which is confusing... Obama talks about "helping small businesses." What?
Obama talks of a tax cut for the middle class...What he fails to realize is that small business owners ARE the middle class. So at best, he speaks in oxymoronic terms.

Not true: The true story part 1


Quote:
It shouldn't come as a shock really, if you consider the fact Obama has never ran a small business, nor had to make a payroll or been responsible for employess as a business owner. The only logical answer is: Obama is ideologically driven in terms of wealth redistribution no matter the cost to the American small business owner or his/her employees.

This is about government expansion and government empowerment plain and simple. Just look at the legislation that has transpired in the last 20 months while the Democrats have controlled the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives and it is overtly obvious.

Great thread,
Mark Evans

Again not true: The true story part 2

Hopefully the voting public will learn to seek out the truth rather than have ridiculous falsehoods spoon fed to them by so called "news" stations.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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First my deepest apologies to JA for helping to turn what should have been a short and non-political thread into a lengthy and highly politicized one.

No problem, Jazzfan.


Quote:

Quote:
After the Obama administration raises his taxes because the business owner is considered "the rich" because he GROSSED $250,000 he will have no alternative but to let some of his oe her employees go, or worst case scenario..he or she will have to sell his business or just completely go out of business altogether.

Not true: The true story part 1

From that analysis: "Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, estimates that the tax hit would not be too high for most small businesses. For one, the marginal tax increase impacts earnings, not revenue. A business would need to be clearing more than $250,000 a year after salaries and other costs in order to see a tax hit. And then, it would likely be small.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Buddha, I just read your first post, and it was quite thought provoking and insightful. The left (well, those who are truly concerned about people) worries about the uncovered while the right (well, those who are truly concerned about people) worry about fraud and the horror of government dependency.

For me, what makes this more clear cut, is that the people affected by the illness are truly bona fide victims. They are indeed innocent. And to me, that makes a huge difference.

Thanks for the post pal.

Trey

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
You see one of the many differences between this forum and Fox News is that here there are individuals who do not take the drivel that is spouted on that "news" channel at face value and know how to find out what is really going on.

Hopefully the voting public will learn to seek out the truth rather than have ridiculous falsehoods spoon fed to them by so called "news" stations.

John,
Thank you for your input, interesting points. Appreciate it. Sorry that my quote directly to your response prior was derailed by another forum member.

Jazzfan:
I checked your source written by Annie Lowrey of the Minnesota Independent....

...Hopefully the voting public will learn to seek out the truth rather than have ridiculous White House talking points spoon fed to them by so-called " mainstream newspapers and media outlets."

Mark Evans

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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Buddha, I just read your first post, and it was quite thought provoking and insightful. The left (well, those who are truly concerned about people) worries about the uncovered while the right (well, those who are truly concerned about people) worry about fraud and the horror of government dependency.

For me, what makes this more clear cut, is that the people affected by the illness are truly bona fide victims. They are indeed innocent. And to me, that makes a huge difference.

Thanks for the post pal.

Trey

Trey,

Pardon me but I'm a bit confused. Exactly which side are you on regarding the issue in question, the left or the right?

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Jazzfan, I hope there is not a left/right issue on doing the right thing, and helping these innocent folks is the right thing.

But I am a rightwingnut. I am so right wing I left the Republican party. How about you pal? Leftie or righte? Or centrist, that is a legit answer as far as I am concerned.

Trey

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Kind of back to the OT, this 9-11 hit me hard. I was sadder than I have been for years about the attack, the deaths, the destruction. It was a downer day for me and my mind was on the events and the events since then as much as the day the attack unfolded. The friction between cultures and religions seems to be growing and growing and it leaves me sad and concerned about our future. And I thought a lot of the people who lost friends and wives and husbands and lovers and children. It was a very sad day. God bless and keep the people who died and the people who were injured and the people who love them.

Trey

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
Jazzfan, I hope there is not a left/right issue on doing the right thing, and helping these innocent folks is the right thing.

But I am a rightwingnut. I am so right wing I left the Republican party. How about you pal? Leftie or righte? Or centrist, that is a legit answer as far as I am concerned.

Trey

I quite agree that isue should most definitely not be a left versus right one but I think sadly it is becoming one. Here are few examples:

jimv wrote in one of the first posts on this thread:


Quote:
I am afraid they will not because it could/will turn out to be like agent orange, or worse, asbestos law and anyone within 100 miles of NYC on 911 with a health problem will apply for relief.

Why Republicans suck 1

Why Republicans suck 2

Why Republicans suck 3

Why Republicans suck 4

And finally

Why Republicans suck 5

To answer your question regarding my political leaning, as if it isn't already quite clear, I'm so far to the left that Obama and the rest of the do nothing, corporate loving Democrats seem like die hard far right Republicans to me. But they are still light years better than even the most left-leaning Republican.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
Kind of back to the OT, this 9-11 hit me hard. I was sadder than I have been for years about the attack, the deaths, the destruction. It was a downer day for me and my mind was on the events and the events since then as much as the day the attack unfolded. The friction between cultures and religions seems to be growing and growing and it leaves me sad and concerned about our future. And I thought a lot of the people who lost friends and wives and husbands and lovers and children. It was a very sad day. God bless and keep the people who died and the people who were injured and the people who love them.

Trey

I agree about this 9/11 being a tougher one.

Perhaps the anger about it has faded into melancholy.

I thought there were some very low class media opportunists trying to turn this sad day into a press event. Self promotion subtracted class from the equation and added crass.

Anyway, the memorial seems beautifully done, kind of like the Vietnam memorial in D.C. - very quiet and thoughtful.

I kind of get a feeling that the angry mood we see in the country is almost a validation for what the 9/11 perpetrators were hoping to accomplish.

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:
Jazzfan, I hope there is not a left/right issue on doing the right thing, and helping these innocent folks is the right thing.

But I am a rightwingnut. I am so right wing I left the Republican party. How about you pal? Leftie or righte? Or centrist, that is a legit answer as far as I am concerned.

Trey

I had to move away from the Republican establishment in 2004. The Libertarian Party was more in line with Founders.

I am a registered Libertarian now. Member# M-000712772.

BTW: Very well stated.

Mark

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:

Trey

I'm so far to the left that Obama and the rest of the do nothing, corporate loving Democrats seem like die hard far right Republicans to me.

jazzfan:

I find this amazing in itself. You mean you are from New Jersey and for the past 4 years John Corzine, Liberal Democrat governor of New Jersey, with the compliance of the democrat state legislators drove that state into virtual bankruptcy. Small Businesses were closing all over. And your more left than those?

...truly amazing.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

I like that new governor there.

I saw the video clip of him answering the teacher who was asking pissed off questions.

Anybody up for an "Off Topic Forum" sharing of positions?

Make a new list of issues and see where people land?

All this right/left stuff has been absolutely ruined in the past 30 years.

When I was a kid, Nevada was Goldwater country and we were told we were a conservative state - only now Barry I would be vilified as a liberal, as Barry II is being!

We had legalized prostitution, abortion, gambling, 24 hour alcohol sales, instant marriage and speedy divorce....and most amazing of all....before being able to take posession of a gun, a person had to be cleared through the Sheriff's office and had to have an up to date "hunter's saftey" certification.

There didn't seem to be any big Second Ammendment threat or rallies about any of that stuff - back then, political conservatism came with a big helping of "you mind your business, I'll mind mine."

Now, both righties and lefties are sticking their noses in everybody's business! It's bipartisan stupidity.

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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I like that new governor there.

I saw the video clip of him answering the teacher who was asking pissed off questions.

Anybody up for an "Off Topic Forum" sharing of positions?

Make a new list of issues and see where people land?

All this right/left stuff has been absolutely ruined in the past 30 years.

When I was a kid, Nevada was Goldwater country and we were told we were a conservative state - only now Barry I would be vilified as a liberal, as Barry II is being!

We had legalized prostitution, abortion, gambling, 24 hour alcohol sales, instant marriage and speedy divorce....and most amazing of all....before being able to take posession of a gun, a person had to be cleared through the Sheriff's office and had to have an up to date "hunter's saftey" certification.

There didn't seem to be any big Second Ammendment threat or rallies about any of that stuff - back then, political conservatism came with a big helping of "you mind your business, I'll mind mine."

Now, both righties and lefties are sticking their noses in everybody's business! It's bipartisan stupidity.

Oh absolutely!

Chris Christie is awesome as the new governor. New Jersey could not take any more of the socialist Corzine. Chrisie speaks his mind very clearly, and doesn't worry about all the political correctness garbage.

Mark

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
I like that new governor there.

I saw the video clip of him answering the teacher who was asking pissed off questions.

Anybody up for an "Off Topic Forum" sharing of positions?

Make a new list of issues and see where people land?

All this right/left stuff has been absolutely ruined in the past 30 years.

When I was a kid, Nevada was Goldwater country and we were told we were a conservative state - only now Barry I would be vilified as a liberal, as Barry II is being!

We had legalized prostitution, abortion, gambling, 24 hour alcohol sales, instant marriage and speedy divorce....and most amazing of all....before being able to take posession of a gun, a person had to be cleared through the Sheriff's office and had to have an up to date "hunter's saftey" certification.

There didn't seem to be any big Second Ammendment threat or rallies about any of that stuff - back then, political conservatism came with a big helping of "you mind your business, I'll mind mine."

Now, both righties and lefties are sticking their noses in everybody's business! It's bipartisan stupidity.

Oh absolutely!

Chris Christie is awesome as the new governor. New Jersey could not take any more of Corzine using it as a test-bed for socialistic experiments so the voters gave him the boot on election day.

Christie speaks his mind very clearly, and doesn't worry about all the political correctness garbage.

Mark

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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Chris Christie is awesome as the new governor. New Jersey could not take any more of the socialist Corzine. Chrisie speaks his mind very clearly, and doesn't worry about all the political correctness garbage.

Mark

My older daughter, after four years of college and a degree in elementary education and certification in two states (NY & NJ) cannot get a job after three plus years of looking. So please tell me just what the she did/is doing to bankrupt the state of NJ? Does she have a union contract which guarantees her a small raise? Does she have a pension plan? Does she get too much paid time off?

The Republicans along with their Fox News cronies only know how to blame the working people, especially unionized working people, for the problems cause by their bad policies and the mistakes of management. According to them it was the auto workers who caused the failure of GM and Chrysler, not the mismanagement and poor planning of the corporate officers.

Funny thing is after the economic meltdown of late 2008 and the $700 bailout of Wall Street my stock portfolio is still way down, so I ask where did that money go? Oh I know, those god damn teachers took it!!

Governor Christe is cut from the same cloth that gave us George W. Bush and like Bush he will end up running NJ straight into the ground. And by the way, it was Former Governor Whitman and not Corzine nor the teachers who bankrupted the teacher's pension fund by borrowing against it and not paying back the money in a timely fashion.

Another really amazing thing is how all the Republicans talk about what a great job NYC mayor Bloomberg has done with the NYC Board of Education and his draconian anti-teacher policies but not one of them would dare send their own children to a NYC public school. They all seem to feel that the smaller class sizes and personal attention given to their little darlings in a swank private school, like the Dalton Academy is much better than the large class sizes and over worked teachers in a typical public school. With the Republicans it is always "Do as I say but not as I do".

So I warn you before you lock horns with me: I am not some moron who swallows all the BS that the mass media puts out. I know how to do research and dig to the bottom and truth of a story. So bear in mind that all of your standard "truths" will be challenged and most will be clearly and plainly debunked for the nonsense they really are by yours truly. Go ahead, give it try, if you dare - all I ask is that you play fair and concede when you're proven wrong and I will do the same.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Jazzfan,

Here is a link to the interview:

It is a Christie Q&A session video where he addresses several "teacher issues."

He seems factual and honest in his reply. I would love to see your critique of his answer.

Christie addresses some teacher issues

The employment issue you raise....what is the proper answer to give regarding your daughter?

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:

Go ahead, give it try, if you dare - all I ask is that you play fair and concede when you're proven wrong and I will do the same.

I respectfully decline. Obamazombies are not capable of reason. and I have to work for a living even after retirement to survive all this "hope and change" were experiencing

Seriously, political discussions 99 9/10th's percent of the time erupt into a "my Party is better than your Party" free for all.Those aruments are never won and I just choose not to participate in that type of discourse.

I'm just here to learn and make friends thats all.

Good news is...
We do have one thing in common.. the love of Jazz. Let's keep it that way. deal?

Mark

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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Kind of back to the OT, this 9-11 hit me hard. I was sadder than I have been for years about the attack, the deaths, the destruction. It was a downer day for me and my mind was on the events and the events since then as much as the day the attack unfolded. The friction between cultures and religions seems to be growing and growing and it leaves me sad and concerned about our future. And I thought a lot of the people who lost friends and wives and husbands and lovers and children. It was a very sad day. God bless and keep the people who died and the people who were injured and the people who love them.

Trey

Hear hear!

Drtrey3
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

So we are audiophile mirror image pairs!

I could have looked up your comments in the thread to ascertain your political leanings, but you were kind enough to ask me, and I wanted to return the favor. Wonderful answer by the way. Listen on bro.

Trey

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Buddha wrote: "I kind of get a feeling that the angry mood we see in the country is almost a validation for what the 9/11 perpetrators were hoping to accomplish."

I see your point, but I hope you are mistaken. The political unrest in the country seems to me to be a real grass roots movement to take the country back from the political elite. The tea party folks (I am one) are upset with Washington becoming intrusive, corrupt, and out of touch. So we are touching them. 8)

The religious conflict certainly is escalating in the world, and that is certainly part of the plan of our enemies. They are looking to bring on the end times. Christian and Muslim theology have a similar but different view of the end of days. Same basic story, but opposite heros. I am not at all convinced that they are ineffective.

Trey

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
First my deepest apologies to JA for helping to turn what should have been a short and non-political thread into a lengthy and highly politicized one.

No problem, Jazzfan.


Quote:

Quote:
After the Obama administration raises his taxes because the business owner is considered "the rich" because he GROSSED $250,000 he will have no alternative but to let some of his oe her employees go, or worst case scenario..he or she will have to sell his business or just completely go out of business altogether.

Not true: The true story part 1

From that analysis: "Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, estimates that the tax hit would not be too high for most small businesses. For one, the marginal tax increase impacts earnings, not revenue. A business would need to be clearing more than $250,000 a year after salaries and other costs in order to see a tax hit. And then, it would likely be small.

Arkasha
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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This shows one thing that is usually missing from the whole stupid debate. It isn't gross income, it's net income, taxable income, that exceeds $250,000, that will be taxed at a higher rate.

You're 100% correct. So why hasn't the person who made these claims acknowledged his error? Instead we get more frothy stuff -- "socialist," and things like that.

This is what I hate about political topics. There's always extremism that makes demonstrably wrong claims, and when called on it just jumpts to another demonstrably wrong claim. This isn't a discussion, it's like arguing with a tape recording.

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:
This shows one thing that is usually missing from the whole stupid debate. It isn't gross income, it's net income, taxable income, that exceeds $250,000, that will be taxed at a higher rate.

You're 100% correct. So why hasn't the person who made these claims acknowledged his error? Instead we get more frothy stuff -- "socialist," and things like that.

This is what I hate about political topics. There's always extremism that makes demonstrably wrong claims, and when called on it just jumpts to another demonstrably wrong claim. This isn't a discussion, it's like arguing with a tape recording.

Dean Baker of the policy institute is one man that has opinions on the Obama tax increase.

I suggest you do your own research.

Further more, does it interest you that Obama has not defined/and re-emphasized what Dean Baker is saying?? No he hasn't because he doesn't know anything about economics nor the details of his tax increase.

Proof of this was the health care bill. Nobody read it, and Nancy Pelosi said they would find out the details of the health care bill AFTER they pass it. key word is: AFTER.

You will find there are varying opinions on who and just how much taxes are going to be paid. Right now, Im going on exactly what Obama and his spokesmouth Gibbs are saying. $250,000 or above is considered "the rich" and thier taxes are going to increase.

But the most important question of this whole discussion is:

WHO is defining who the "rich" are. And WHO is defining who the "poor" are??

Mark

JoeE SP9
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

$250,000 a year is definitely richer than I.

Buddha
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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Dean Baker of the policy institute is one man that has opinions on the Obama tax increase.

If you look at the signature on the coming tax increase, it belongs to Bush.

Obama never put an expiration on the tax cut - Bush left a land mine behind.

Cold hard fact.

You can call it the Obama tax increase, I suppose, because Bush set it up to expire now...but that would be like blaming Bush for 9/11 because it happened to occur while he was in office.

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Re: 9/11 Remembered

" it belongs to Bush."

I thought that pesky Congress, specifically The House was responsible for economic matters.

But if it was bad Bush, then certainly good Obama will fix it. Otherwise, he is raising the lowest tax bracket by 50%.

Trey

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Re: 9/11 Remembered


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" it belongs to Bush."

I thought that pesky Congress, specifically The House was responsible for economic matters.

But if it was bad Bush, then certainly good Obama will fix it. Otherwise, he is raising the lowest tax bracket by 50%.

Trey

Check the signature, amigo.

Hell, if you want to blame Congress - what party was in charge when the expiration landmine was so cynically put on this baby?

mark evans
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:

If you look at the signature on the coming tax increase, it belongs to Bush.

Obama never put an expiration on the tax cut - Bush left a land mine behind.

Cold hard fact.

You can call it the Obama tax increase, I suppose, because Bush set it up to expire now...but that would be like blaming Bush for 9/11 because it happened to occur while he was in office.

Great point Buddah. Thats true.
The Obama administration needs to extend the Bush tax cuts, which is what the debate is in Congress now. The Democrats and the Obama administration do not want to extend them.

I am of the opinion that they will be extended even though the Democrats control congress. The reason I say this is because the Democrats see the political winds changing in the country, and they are not looking forward to November.

Nancy Pelosi was asked this question the other day, and one of the Sunday morning political talk shows covered it. She led me to believe that the extention of said cuts were not completely off the table.

Mark

Drtrey3
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Re: 9/11 Remembered

Buddha, I am so sorry. I have had my coffee, I slept well last night, I am looking forward to a good day at work and a great weekend, and I do not know what you are referring to when you say "Check out the signature."

I am sorry, could you please dumb it bown for the Southerner. 8)

Trey

Buddha
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Re: 9/11 Remembered


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you look at the signature on the coming tax increase, it belongs to Bush.

Obama never put an expiration on the tax cut - Bush left a land mine behind.

Cold hard fact.

You can call it the Obama tax increase, I suppose, because Bush set it up to expire now...but that would be like blaming Bush for 9/11 because it happened to occur while he was in office.

Great point Buddah. Thats true.
The Obama administration needs to extend the Bush tax cuts, which is what the debate is in Congress now. The Democrats and the Obama administration do not want to extend them.

I am of the opinion that they will be extended even though the Democrats control congress. The reason I say this is because the Democrats see the political winds changing in the country, and they are not looking forward to November.

Nancy Pelosi was asked this question the other day, and one of the Sunday morning political talk shows covered it. She led me to believe that the extention of said cuts were not completely off the table.

Mark

I think you are right - with Pelosi's trying out the "Let's call this the Obama Tax Cut in order to mask the expiration of the Bush tax cut" seeming to not dent public opinion, I think we will see the blue party discover some form of new love for the Bush plan and extend it...until next year, a non-election year.

That would still be great incentive for people to "vote red" this year, IMHO.

I'm with you, I think the cuts live.Timing is so important, I can't believe the Democrats are acting so suicidally! They magically become 'fiscally responsible' when it comes to tax rates while simultaneously competing to see who can throw money down the toilet the fastest!

Same with Reid's DREAM Act - yikes! Bad timing for this discussion....unless he is so cynical he thinks he may suck up enough Hispanic votes to offset the suicidal nature of trying to put his name on a very controversial immigration bill and attaching it to a defense bill!

(I am somewhat left on immigration - I think we need to openly discuss how we want things to work....and get these people who are here anyway paying taxes and buying auto insurance [because they don't seem to be able to master driving where I live] - but Harry is acting as crazy as Sharon Angle. And that's saying alot!)

Dr. Trey: I meant it was George II's signature on the bottom of the page regarding the expiration of the tax cuts. (I am also mostly goofing off when I call the the Bush tax hike. I hope I did not offend thee!)

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