Watts, there is no substitute!!!! http://prosoundnews.com/articles/article_4321.shtml
For aproximately the same weight,you could allways get a Sun Audio sv-2a3 at 3.5 wpc
Hey DUP if you believe this I've got a bridge that I'd be willing to let go real cheap in Brooklyn or San Francisco real reasonable. I bet I could get them up to about 8,000 watts with some upgraded power cords.
If I beleive what? ElectroVoice is a pro products mfg. they don't sell nonsense. You note it also requires a 30A line!!! Fortunatly there are no 30a wiring devices in Audio grade. But if you notice it has a pretty high distortion spec etc. WILL it be noticable? If used in a smaller operation? this thing is meant to fill a BIG space with clean sound. that kind of power is incredible you feel how hot a 100W incandessant lamp is? that's a lot of energy. stacks and stacks of LARGE speakers to absord that kind of power and produce incredible dB levels. some SLS ribbons with this kind of power, wow. If this is run in mono, can it be? With an AVA phase inerter!!! how much power then? Will a 15W tube amp sound better?
Yes. A 3w or so 2A3 amp also might sound better. Coupled with the right gear it would almost certainly sound better. Flea powered tube amps driving +102db/W/meter efficient horns would be loud enough even for you. It isn't always about eardrum breaking volume or enough power to illuminate the Chrysler building.
I suppose you could get someone to cryogenically treat these for you. Personally, I would consider anything hospital grade as audiophile quality. Of course, your mileage may vary. Hubble 30A
Not ear drum breaking, just REALISTIC levels and feel. When the snare drum snaps, it's gotta sound REAL..while keeping the cymbals clean, undistorted, 3W ain't gonna do itm, I don't care how efficeint your speakers are, impossible. One simple bass note takes the complete energy availabe in some tiny useless 3 watt amp, then it's all distortion, nothing else. Don't you think in all these years, if this was possibile, live sound systems WOULD be doing just that? think of the money they could save in insatllations....Not having to have a stack and racks and racks of monster amps totaling say 32kW as in teh case of Starland in Sayerville, they could have a few mini watts, driving thee efficeient speakers, Many pro speakers ARE very efficient anyway...SLS, EAW, JBL, and many others..WATTS, is the only thing making it REAL. Driving good speakers of course, fed by good music and mics etc. Best musicans in teh world playing to a live crowd, with a 3 w miniwatt, ain't gonna make it enjoyable, impossible
Hubbell, P&S, Eagle, Leviton, all make fine stuff, none of which is "audio grade"..since NEMA or NEC or IEC, or VDE etc etc recognize that denotation in wiring devices. Only marketeers and hucksters created it. Heard some great music last nite in Asbury Park, LIVE Matt Oree, Sonny Kenn Matt has many non audio grade extension cords, so does Sonny Kenn. Man it sounded GREAT!!! Fuchs,Komet, Marshall,Gibson, Fender, Gretsch...a few things that make it sound GREAT. And the "MAGIC" fingers playing them instruments of course, now that's TRUE MAGIC!!!!
I am so glad you are helping us define "Huckerster". Some have seen it and heard it. And it continues, ad nauseam.
I would suggest you go to a Klipsch or Avant Garde dealer and give their horns a listen while using flea powered tube amps, of course.
DUP, have you heard these babies, or is there no need since they piss watts like used beer?
Hey, the "no need to hear them" camp is a fine place to visit, but I don't wanna live there.
I guess if it makes the House of Blues, Chicago manage to fill an amphitheater with 125 dB of loudness, it must be good.
I do admit, those will be ahead of AVA on my auditon list...more watts, must be better.
Buy 'em and give us a review vs. your AVA's.
As I have stated in the past the method of rating wattage is NOT STANDARDIZED. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) offers some guidelines but leaves plenty of loop holes.
They have NOT standardized the frequency range over which the amplifier is tested or the amount of distortion that is allowable during a test. The only thing that is required is that these variables be disclosed to the public. Arcam did an interesting test on a product manufactured by their completion. Check this out: http://www.audiophilesystems.com/arcam/AVR300PowerRatings.pdf
Pro gear actually has less regulations than consumer gear check this out:
See the FTC regulations for consumer gear yourself at :
[Code of Federal Regulations][Title 16, Volume 1][Revised as of January 1, 2003]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[CITE: 16CFR432.1]
TITLE 16--COMMERCIAL PRACTICES
CHAPTER I--FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
PART 432--POWER OUTPUT CLAIMS FOR AMPLIFIERS UTILIZED IN HOME ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS--Table of Contents
Sec. 432.1 Scope.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, this part shall apply whenever any power output (in watts or otherwise), power band or power frequency response, or distortion capability or characteristic is represented, either expressly or by implication, in connection with the advertising, sale, or offering for sale, in commerce as ``commerce'' is defined in the Federal Trade Commission Act, of sound power amplification equipment manufactured or sold for home entertainment purposes, such as for example, radios, record and tape players, radio-phonograph and/or tape combinations, component audio amplifiers, self-powered speakers for computers, multimedia systems and sound systems, and the like. (b) Representations shall be exempt from this part if all representations of performance characteristics referred to in paragraph (a) of this section clearly and conspicuously disclose a manufacturer's rated power output and that rated output does not exceed two (2) watts (per channel or total). (c) It is an unfair method of competition and an unfair or deceptive act or practice within the meaning of section 5(a)(1) of the Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. 45(a)(1)) to violate any applicable provision of this part.
[39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974, as amended at 63 FR 37235, July 9, 1998]
[Code of Federal Regulations][Title 16, Volume 1][Revised as of January 1, 2003]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[CITE: 16CFR432.2]
Sec. 432.2 Required disclosures.
(a) Whenever any direct or indirect representation is made of the power output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion characteristics of sound power amplification equipment, the following disclosure shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than any other representations or disclosures permitted under this part: The manufacturer's rated minimum sine wave continuous average power output, in watts, per channel (if the equipment is designed to amplify two or more channels simultaneously) at an impedance of 8 ohms, or, if the amplifier is not designed for an 8-ohm impedance, at the impedance for which the amplifier is primarily designed, measured with all associated channels fully driven to rated per channel power. Provided, however, when measuring maximum per channel output of self-powered combination speaker systems that employ two or more amplifiers dedicated to different portions of the audio frequency spectrum, such as those incorporated into combination subwoofer-satellite speaker systems, only those channels dedicated to the same audio frequency spectrum should be considered associated channels that need be fully driven simultaneously to rated per channel power. (b) In addition, whenever any direct or indirect representation is made of the power output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion characteristics of sound power amplification equipment in any product brochure or manufacturer specification sheet, the following disclosures also shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than any other
representations or disclosures permitted under this part: (1) The manufacturer's rated power band or power frequency response, in Hertz (Hz), for the rated power output required to be disclosed in paragraph (a) of this section; and (2) The manufacturer's rated percentage of maximum total harmonic distortion at any power level from 250 mW to the rated power output, and its corresponding rated power band or power frequency response.
[65 FR 81239, Dec. 22, 2000]
Code of Federal Regulations][Title 16, Volume 1][Revised as of January 1, 2003]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[CITE: 16CFR432.3]
Sec. 432.3 Standard test conditions.
For purposes of performing the tests necessary to make the disclosures required under Sec. 432.2 of this part: (a) The power line voltage shall be 120 volts AC (230 volts when the equipment is made for foreign sale or use, unless a different nameplate rating is permanently affixed to the product by the manufacturer in which event the latter figure would control), RMS, using a sinusoidal wave containing less than 2 percent total harmonic content. In the case of equipment designed for battery operation only, tests shall be made with the battery power supply for which the particular equipment is designed and such test voltage must be disclosed under the required disclosures of Sec. 432.2 of this part. If capable of both AC and DC battery operation, testing shall be with AC line operation; (b) The AC power line frequency for domestic equipment shall be 60 Hz and 50 Hz for equipment made for foreign sale or use; (c) The amplifier shall be preconditioned by simultaneously operating all channels at one-eighth of rated power output for one hour using a sinusoidal wave at a frequency of 1,000 Hz; provided, however, that for amplifiers utilized as a component in a self-powered subwoofer system, the sinusoidal wave used as a preconditioning signal may be any frequency within the amplifier's intended operating bandwidth that will allow the amplifier to be driven to one-eighth of rated power for one hour; (d) The preconditioning and testing shall be in still air and an ambient temperature of at least 77 deg.F (25 deg.C); (e) Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes at the amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input. (f) At all times during warm-up and testing, tone loudness-contour and other controls shall be preset for the flattest response.
[39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974, as amended at 65 FR 81240, Dec. 22, 2000]
[Code of Federal Regulations][Title 16, Volume 1][Revised as of January 1, 2003]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[CITE: 16CFR432.4]
Sec. 432.4 Optional disclosures.
Other operating characteristics and technical specifications not required in Sec. 432.2 of this part may be disclosed: Provided: (a) That any other power output is rated by the manufacturer, is expressed in minimum watts per channel, and such power output representation(s) complies with the provisions of Sec. 432.2 of this part; except that if a peak or other instantaneous power rating, such as music power or peak power, is represented under this section, the maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion (see Sec. 432.2(d) of this part) may be disclosed only at such rated output: And provided further, (b) That all disclosures or representations made under this section are less conspicuously, and prominently made than the disclosures required in Sec. 432.2 of this part; and (c) The rating and testing methods or standards used in determining such representations are disclosed, and well known and generally recognized by the industry at the time the representations or disclosures are made, are neither intended nor likely to deceive or confuse the consumers and are not otherwise likely to frustrate the purpose of this part.
Note 1: For the purpose of paragraph (b) of this section, optional disclosures will not be considered less prominent if they are either bold faced or are more than two-thirds the height of the disclosures required by Sec. 432.2.
Note 2: Use of the asterisk in effecting any of the disclosures required by Sec. 432.2 and permitted by Sec. 432.4 shall not be deemed conspicuous disclosure.
[39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974; 39 FR 17838, May 21, 1974]
[Code of Federal Regulations][Title 16, Volume 1][Revised as of January 1, 2003]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[CITE: 16CFR432.5]
Sec. 432.5 Prohibited disclosures.
No performance characteristics to which this part applies shall be represented or disclosed if they are not obtainable as represented or disclosed when the equipment is operated by the consumer in the usual and normal manner without the use of extraneous aids.
[Code of Federal Regulations][Title 16, Volume 1][Revised as of January 1, 2003]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[CITE: 16CFR432.6]
Sec. 432.6 Liability for violation.
If the manufacturer or, in the case of foreign made products, the importer or domestic sales representative of a foreign manufacturer, of any product covered by this part furnishes the information required or permitted under this part, then any other seller of the product shall not be deemed to be in violation of Sec. 432.5 of this part due to his reliance upon or transmittal of the written representations of the manufacturer or importer if such seller has been furnished by the manufacturer, importer, or sales representative a written certification attesting to the accuracy of the representations to which this part applies: And provided further, That such seller is without actual knowledge of the violation contained in said written certification.
Before the FTC rules there was nothing used to use the same procedure, standardized. 1/3 pre conditioning didn't exist. Now which extremely expensive model didn't meet even this procedure? No response yet from mfg on this foible. Before FTC rules there was something like IHF nonsense, which used peak power, dynamic power, music power, this power or that power, depending on what was mae up for the product. RMS which is the only way to measure watts became necessary after FTC stepped in. hopefully one day they will step in on wire BS. Make the claims be proved, and not just some imaginary things being transformed. Just seen the latest AQ in Absolute Sound....hmmm, now the RCA connector gets a new shape, and a new name, doesn't mention voltage of the "bias", that was last months science at AQ.
HOB was well done, natural, smooth, not anything near 125dB. You make assumptions. It just sounded GREAT!!!!! Clear, resolved, with slam and IMPACT. No boom, no mush, no shrill, matter o' fact almost sounded as good as my house stuff. And this was in a crowd of well over 1000, great place, highly recomended. HOB AC is also similar. HOB has been purchased by a differetn company, hopefully they maintain the same high standards. Nothing could be finer than two giant vertical stacks of prime speakers from floor to ceiling, making REAL MAGIC. Superb clarity, slam and natural sound. Place is a reference for all others to follow, then after I see the article in a pro sound installation publication, it proved to myself, my ears know what they is doing. It starts with lotsa great clean, fast WATTS into great speakers, setup properly. Fed input from incredible musicans. Now that's what it's all about. AND the lighting was superb also, bright, clear, no glare, really well done compared to many other places I've been, that kinda suck.