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obonillaf
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The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

It's not that we are stupid and I suppose in every hobby there are people selling "snake oil" but sometimes the "snake oil scams" for audiophiles are so in-your-face that it can certainly help to the wrong perception that all audiophiles are fools. I periodically receive the ACOUSTIC SOUNDS catalog and yesterday while I was reading it, I got shocked at this GUTWIRE power cord (5ft at $99) that they were advertising. This is what they say: "Did you know that the tightness of the jacket materials could change the sound. Gutwire jacket materials are designed to be loose. After numerous experiments, the tightness of the jacket materials does affect the sound significantly. IF THE JACKET MATERIALS FITTED THE CABLE VERY TIGHTLY, the sound of music WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY CONSTRAINT and the "vividness" of music would have disappeared".

Have you any recent better example of "snake oil"?? I guess the next step in all this cables scam is going to be specific cables for specific music. They will demonstrate backed up by some scientific studies, that cables are prone to the type of music (more highs, more bass) and so you should switch cables for the specific musical genre you are hearing. They will even have the "signature" cables and sell at $1000,oo per ft the "David Gilmour" signature cable for progressive rock, the "Bob Marley" signature cable for reggae and of course, the "Jay Z" approved signature cable for HIP HOP...

judicata
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...


Quote:
I guess the next step in all this cables scam is going to be specific cables for specific music. They will demonstrate backed up by some scientific studies, that cables are prone to the type of music (more highs, more bass) and so you should switch cables for the specific musical genre you are hearing. They will even have the "signature" cables and sell at $1000,oo per ft the "David Gilmour" signature cable for progressive rock, the "Bob Marley" signature cable for reggae and of course, the "Jay Z" approved signature cable for HIP HOP...

Brilliant! I'm in - let's find some investors.

obonillaf
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

Guess what. Let's hire one or two "professors" at a University and pay them to demonstrate by "proper" documentation that in fact cables are prone to the type of music. Let's hire a very fancy publicity agency to make ads for our "product". The ad should be very refined (like luxury cars ads) but also it will be essential to pay the rights to have musical icons pictures like the ones mentioned before. It will be essential also to locate an "assistant" sound engineer (even tough he only made coffee) of a major record) and start paying big buck front page ad in audiophile magazines. I SWEAR people will buy this cable, there will be discussions in forums about it and we will start seeing people swearing the sound is "warmer", "lush" and "more open and free" with the signature "Miles Davis" jazz cable and that suddenly they are hearing sounds that never knew existed before.

Buddha
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

"Did you know that the tightness of the jacket materials could change the sound. Gutwire jacket materials are designed to be loose. After numerous experiments, the tightness of the jacket materials does affect the sound significantly. IF THE JACKET MATERIALS FITTED THE CABLE VERY TIGHTLY, the sound of music WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY CONSTRAINT and the "vividness" of music would have disappeared".

Hey! Be nice! That's how I shop for pants!

Your idea is genius, but I think it stops short.

I think the future lies in specific cables for specific recordings.

I dream of a day when I can spend 10 minutes changing from my "Smoke on the Water" cable over to my "Kind of Blue" cable before I dare listen to Miles.

I'm thinking a set of "Rocky Mountain Way" cables will have to cost less than "Way Out West" cables.

Heck, let's kick it up a notch and go with "Kind of Blue on CD" vs. "Kind of Blue on LP" speaker cables.

Hmmmm....

No.

"Kind of Blue, 50th Anniversay Pressing" cables vs. "KInd of Blue, 200gm Classics Re-issue" cables.

Yes!

Now we are talking!

Maybe we can have some cheaper lines for "Mastered by Bob Ludwig" recordings, etc.

Let's think big!

Jan Vigne
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...
obonillaf
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

Yes of course. That's why these cables are pure SNAKE OIL if not an in-your-face scam:

"At audio frequencies, even the worst dielectrics (ie. Polyvinyl Chloride, aka. PVC / plastic) used in cheap and many exotic speaker cables maintain shunt resistive impedances in the mega ohms or more. When dealing with a low termination impedance of a loudspeakers (usually in the order of several ohms) the dielectric shunt resistance is on the order of 10^6 greater, thus the parallel impedance remains virtually unaffected and we see no losses due to the dielectric at audio frequencies...Thus the dielectric losses at audio frequencies where the cable is terminated into a low impedance load such as a loudpeaker are insignificant.".

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/dielectric-absorption-in-cables-debunked

bertdw
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

It's not the losses that cause problems, but the time smearing.

From " The Development of the Continuously Loaded Conductor" by George Cardas:

"Signals travel at light speed on open wire but slow considerably in cables as faster propagating conductors are forced to charge dielectric material. The energy stored and transferred at different time constants in cable conductors and dielectrics fuels a complex kinetic resonator."

An interesting read. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue31/cardas_conductor.htm

obonillaf
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

George Cardas? As in CEO of Cardas Audio? Yes, I always like reading "objective" "studies"...

Jan Vigne
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

And you feel Audioholics is objective?

See, now, that's why I provided you with an entire page of search results for the topic "dielectric absorption". I just knew you would be drawn to the one that agrees with your already established opinion and ignore the numerous other entries that disagree with your already established opinion. An opinion I would guess that has nothing to do with anything more than what you wish to believe. You obviously had not heard of "dielectric absorption" before I gave you all the answers.

You ignored the entry that begins, "It is well known that dielectric absorption plays a critical role ... ", and the one that states, "Dielectric absorption can cause subtle errors in analog applications ... ". You also forgot to read and quote the one that says, "A capacitor which has been charged for a long time and then been completely discharged, has a small voltage on its terminal wires again, within seconds or minutes. This effect is known as dielectric absorption."

Lord, haven't we been down this path enough times already? I don't give a crap what or who you wish to believe but argue from a point of knowledge and not just making shit up. If you care to beleive this guy that I find full of it, then you should indulge me to the extent you allow me to believe the dissenting opinion that I can find quotes to support. And I can find the quotes to support my opinion without having to rely on the opposing side to supply them to me.

Tell you what, why don't we debate whether Jesus actually had a straight Anglo nose and fine, light blond hair and light skin? That would be sooooo much more interesting than this. And you could sight paintings of Jesus created by the 17th century masters - who knew about as much about how Jesus looked as you know about dielectric absorption - to prove your point. I'll even give you links to those too if you like - or need.

And to answer your original question, "Have you any recent better example of "snake oil"??", yes, I have, it was from someone who just didn't even think about what might be true.

Now, go ahead and get indignant because you've been challenged. It's what everybody who doesn't have a leg to stand on or an idea of their own to support does when they are challenged on this forum. Don't bother trying to discuss this topic, that would be too grown up. Just go ahead and wail about what an ignorant fool I am and how smart you are. Go ahead. It doesn't matter, I stopped listening when you only looked for one answer among the many I provided to you.

Buddha
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

Just for the record, I was making a pants joke, and then a joke about marketing.

I apologize if I slandered cables. I like cables.

obonillaf
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...


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And you feel Audioholics is objective?

Don't bother trying to discuss this topic, that would be too grown up. Just go ahead and wail about what an ignorant fool I am and how smart you are. Go ahead. It doesn't matter, I stopped listening when you only looked for one answer among the many I provided to you.

No, I won't waste time "discussing" with someone like you. People like you is always needed, if not, the black legend of audiophiles fool's gold would cease to exist and even those bad things are necessary. Is part of the hobby. I just feel sad for people like you who spend in snake oil like this instead of investing in lps, cds, sacds, etc. Oh and don't even tell me your collection is vast enough and that you don't know what to do with all your money so you like buying these power cords and start hearing all the "hidden sounds" that were to be discovered in your favorite album.

ncdrawl
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

@ Jan

Jesus Links, please

Buddha
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...


Quote:

Quote:
And you feel Audioholics is objective?

Don't bother trying to discuss this topic, that would be too grown up. Just go ahead and wail about what an ignorant fool I am and how smart you are. Go ahead. It doesn't matter, I stopped listening when you only looked for one answer among the many I provided to you.

No, I won't waste time "discussing" with someone like you. People like you is always needed, if not, the black legend of audiophiles fool's gold would cease to exist and even those bad things are necessary. Is part of the hobby. I just feel sad for people like you who spend in snake oil like this instead of investing in lps, cds, sacds, etc. Oh and don't even tell me your collection is vast enough and that you don't know what to do with all your money so you like buying these power cords and start hearing all the "hidden sounds" there were to be discovered in your favorite album.

So, if Jan says he can hear differences between cables, he is lying?

Did you know that Jan is an avid cable builder and has shared very affordable recipes for building cables, using Radio Shack parts?

Jan builds them, and then can discuss characteristics and what he hears.

Jan and I argue about some stuff, but I admire the heck out of some of the stuff he does!

Did Jan just promote ultra cheap snake oil if his cables cost less than yours?

obonillaf
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Did Jan just promote ultra cheap snake oil if his cables cost less than yours?

No but he is certainly defending the Gutwire power cord I was attacking.

Buddha, could you please answer me this simple question: Would you buy this Gutwire power cord I was attacking?

Buddha
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

Hi, not to speak for Jan, I think he was defending the fact that the power cord could, in his opinion, have an effect on the sound and is not 'snake oil.'

As for myself and that specific cord, I'd be happy to let someone put it in my system and see if I heard a difference. Can't tell you any more than that about buying it.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...


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No but he is certainly defending the Gutwire power cord I was attacking.

You forgot the word "senselessly" before "attacking". And you don't have a clue what I was doing.

Answer me this, did you have any idea dielectric absorption was considered an issue in cables - and capacitors - before I supplied the links?

Have you ever tried a cable without a dielectric?

Do you know what a dielectric is?

And don't feel sad for me, I'm perfectly happy with what I know. However, in less than 20 posts and between this and the "off center" thread, you would appear to unhappy with lots of things. If you'll calm down and discuss things rather than throwing a hissy fit whenever someone suggests something, there is room on this forum for you. We can all learn something other than how disagreeable the other person can get.

mrlowry
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

Jan-

I had no idea that you were into building cables. I'd like to know more about that.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

Not that much to say. The thread was recently unearthed and discussed again. Something about "cable discussion" if you want to look through the last few weeks of threads. I researched and built what sounded good and stopped there.

KBK
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Re: The solution of "tightness" of sound by a "wonder" cable...

The bigger problems are that some people, hell the vast majority of people -are foolish and dumb enough to think that the limits of the world revolve around the limits and reach of their own minds, psychology, intelligence and beliefs.

I have one point to mention in that direction:

Grow Up.

And that's about as nice as I can say it.

I tend to notice it as I have to temper and edit every single conversation and communication I have in this life.

And let me tell you, it gets old.....real fast.

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