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CECE
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record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

You don't need no stinkin' clamp...Furutech it...flatten your world. http://www.furutech.com/produ_2.asp?ProdNo=263

Buddha
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

Well, I don't know how you could improve on DUP's typically helpful advice, but there may be a few other clamps worth seeking out.

The SOTA clamp is my favorite, and can be easily had at retail.

Another very very nice clamp was made by Merrill, and shows up here and there. I couldn't find one on Ebay or Audiogon right now, but it's worth looking around for. Be sure to look for the old reflex clamp...it's better than their current clamp.

Best wishes.

CECE
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

Are there really SOUND differences in different clamps.....My VPI Mk III has a plastic clamp, it holds down the record...how does the extremely pricey "upgrade" clamps VPI tries to sell as an improvemtn, how how how, once teh record is clamped, what is different, they all screw down and hold teh record...$175 or so for a thing, come on....the plastic standard piece pulls down teh record.....how come VPI doesn't publish specs on the measureable differences betweeen teh "cheap" plastic one supplied with teh TT originally, over some metal thing they sell?

Buddha
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?


Quote:
Are there really SOUND differences in different clamps.....My VPI Mk III has a plastic clamp, it holds down the record...how does the extremely pricey "upgrade" clamps VPI tries to sell as an improvemtn, how how how, once teh record is clamped, what is different, they all screw down and hold teh record...$175 or so for a thing, come on....the plastic standard piece pulls down teh record.....how come VPI doesn't publish specs on the measureable differences betweeen teh "cheap" plastic one supplied with teh TT originally, over some metal thing they sell?

Of course your plastic clamp is as good as it gets...your turntable is basically a shelf you store CD's on.

A clamp can make a great deal of difference, and it should be something that is well matched to the platter. If a clamp is not used properly, it can actually end up doing the opposite of what it is intended for.

So, you hate vinyl, but own a VPI turntable with which you use a clamp, but any benefit beyond your stock plastic clamp is unfathomable to you.

Yup, sounds like DUP.

Tell me, why do you use a clamp at all?

smejias
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

I'm sorry if moving this exchange caused any confusion, but I didn't like seeing it in the Entry Level. Buddha's comments to the original poster were thoughtful and helpful, but DUP's comments were not. At the same time, I don't want to stop you guys from continuing this discussion.

Jan Vigne
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

There are certainly sound improvements to be had with a better clamp - if you have more than two "personal preferences" for what your hifi does. Going from the old style HW19 with its plastic clamp to the Scout with a far better clamp is similar to changing pre amps. Among the other improvements the new table brings to my system LP's are flatter and have a quieter background with the Scout. The first is obviously the benefit of the clamp while the latter is a combination of things and twenty years of development at VPI. The Scout has a better platter and bearing than the HW19 also. Together the clamp and platter along with the inverted bearing make for a table that is head and shoulders better than the HW19 if you wish to play LP's. If you wish to set a curio on it, they're about the same.

CECE
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

You changed TT's. I ask, between clamps, not changing TT's. VPI offers different clamps for the same tables VPI standard plastic one with the Tt, or the more pricey metal clamp sold as an "upgrade". Once the record is tightened down to the platterm how does the clamp change anything, once the record is clamped. I understand the idea of clamping the record, rather than just having it float sometimes above the platter, with a slight bow in it. How does a metal $150 clamp do anything different than the plastic one they gave with the table? VPI offers zero tech specs, just claims of something improving, it's dubious. think about it, once the LP is tight to the platter, why does it matter, what clamps it down? hmmmmm?

Jan Vigne
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

I changed tables and I acknowledged that. I'm not comparing clamps to clamps. But without the better table the sonic difference in clamps is less noticeable. And just to be clear, I only changed the table. I moved my arm and cartridge over to the Scout, so the improvements I'm hearing are all related to the table and it's clamp.

I have no idea how VPI prices their products. I suspect if someone feels everything is overpriced, they can't justify the price of anything.

I can tell you I have several discs with enough warp the HW19's two piece plastic, screw down clamp couldn't flatten the disc to the platter. The woofers would always pump somewhat no matter how I tried to pressure the plastic clamp. The Scout uses the same principle for the one piece metal clamp included with the table; a rubber washer under the disc and a screw down clamp that pushes the disc around the washer. The Scout's clamp appears to have finer threads and cover slightly more area than the plastic clamp from the 19. It's also much thinner and the larger amount of surface area on the integrated nut is easier to tighten to the correct pressure. And I imagine the different platter material of the Scout also makes an improvement. VPI makes a big deal of their platter materials also.

I would assume the Scout clamp is doing a better job of removing the vinyl resonance from the LP and transferring less bearing noise to the disc. The Scout is far quieter than the HW19. I don't know for sure, dup. I listen to the music and don't worry about whether I spent too much money or whether the cheaper stuff would do just as well. VPI changed the clamps. I imagine they feel there is an improvement to be made otherwise they would have just kept the lower performing clamp that you own.

Why don't you call VPI and ask them. Or, ask MF since you two are such good buds.

CECE
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

I figured you woulda' known, since you say, there are benefits to the better clamp, but I guess you really don't. you just pontificating. Once teh record is held to teh platter, the threads on teh spindle mean nothing, if teh record is now flat to teh platter, how is teh influence of the clamp, doing anything, once it did what it is supposed to, hold the record flat to teh platter. You keep bringing up teh better Scout table versus teh MKIII you are obviously not hearing a difference in teh clamps, as you claimed on a previous post, that a better CLAMP will have sonic benefits!! You say the SCOUT is a better TT, cus of the better bearings, blah blah blah. But is it really, or is it just redone, similar product? The Delrin machined clamp, versus the metal clamp, what do you possibly think it costs to mfg that metal clamp? That is is so much more than the plastic one? Do you ever question WHY? Does soemthing come priced the way it does? It usually gets ya more for your money, cus' my bank has limited funds, maybe your's don't. Why do you say sonic benefits with a better clamp, but you don't understand or know why? Anyone know, how one clamp SOUNDS better, over another, "sonic benefits"...just a sales line? Probably.

Jan Vigne
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

I never claimed just the clamp was responsible for the improved sound quality. I said the Scout's clamp does a better job at flattening the LP on the better platter. If getting the woofers to stand still is not an improvement, I don't know what is. I don't require a spec sheet to tell me whether what I'm hearing is better or worse. No, I don't know how much it costs to manufacture the metal clamp vs. the plastic clamp. It's not important to me. I can't buy the Scout without the better clamp so why bother thinking about this crap.

Just don't worry, dup, I'm pretty certain a different clamp would not change your system's sound quality. You have all teh SLAM and then MORE SLAM that you can handel. With all teh 14,000 watts you got, you shouldn't wory about clamps.

dbowker
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

I would think it'd be obvious how a different clamp could be better or worse. You've got a substantial piece of material contacting the record that can now: 1) hold down the record, as you say, 2) resonate or hopefully not resonate any other stray vibrations present on the player, 3) ideally either diffuse said resonances or absorb them and 4) if heavy enough add mass to the assembly adding to platter stability by applying positive inertia.

Plus, different plastics are more or less resonant free/absorptive, and then metals are a whole other matter. I upgraded my Well-Tempered turntable's clamp and aside from it covering more of the LP, I felt it did tighten up some noticeable frequencies, mostly in the bottom end. I liked what I heard so I feel the cost was worth it, although I also feel it was over-priced! I admit many upgrades are in fact over priced, but to upgrade a major piece of equipment would be many times more, so I go with the incremental, usually.

CECE
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Re: record clamp, to buy or not to buy?

Maybe if enough people interested in quality audio, complained about teh insane prices of stuff, mfgs would wise up and stop fleecing the few people who buy some of teh grossly overpriced stuff. Soem of teh stuff may indeed work, and some stuff is very good. But when you look at it financially, logically, and as a consumer, many times teh pricing is absurd. could high end mfgs be greedy, and take advantage of the hobbyist? Soem of VPI's "upgrades" are really a turn off....a machined piece of plastic for a few hundreds of dollars.....don't like paying so much more than it feels is reality based on some products,

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