You are here

Log in or register to post comments
BigBuck
BigBuck's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: May 26 2011 - 9:13pm
An Obvious Trend Toward Religious Doctrine and Dogma

Last month we had Sam Tellig hearing things magical from boxes empty, this month we have an editorial espousing absolute trust in subjectivism absent any trace of objective evidence, and a "review" of power line improvement devices by Mr. Fremer.  In this piece, Fremer parrots the manufacturer's (absurd, from a scientific view) theories of how the most expensive power conditioners work, and a religious affirmation that they do so.   (Just trust Mikey's ears!)

On reading Fremer's piece, one finds a link to the manufacturer's website.  Upon following the link, the reader finds (surprise!) A COPY OF FREMER'S REVIEW (which is just now published in Stereophile)!

I think it's prima facie evidence of corrupt practices, myself.  You can think what you like.

John Atkinson
John Atkinson's picture
Online
Last seen: 11 min 45 sec ago
Joined: Nov 7 2010 - 3:31pm
Shunyata

BigBuck wrote:

On reading Fremer's piece, one finds a link to the manufacturer's website.  Upon following the link, the reader finds (surprise!) A COPY OF FREMER'S REVIEW (which is just now published in Stereophile)!

To clarify, the link on Shunyata' s website is to a similar piece published on the AudioBeat website, not in Stereophile.

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

Michael Fremer
Michael Fremer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 1 week ago
Joined: Jun 26 2006 - 9:49am
Big Buck can't read

Dear "Big Buck". You obviously don't read with comprehension. The story I wrote was the opposite of a religious experience. You were expecting such a story so wrote a response based upon your expectations.

The point of the story was to demonstrate that differences that can be heard among power cords and conditioners can be measured.

It's hardly sufficient to say the scientific claims made based upon measurements are "absurd." So put up or shut up. Better yet, just shut up. 

MarkBryston
MarkBryston's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Mar 23 2009 - 2:22pm
and now the next step

I brought this subject up a while back in another thread and no sooner had I posted it I discovered Mikeys review on this. I commented on the manufacturers claim of having discovered a "scientific measurable" set of criteria on the reasons why differences can be heard with power cables. I then suggested/asked Stereophile to review and independently verify these claims since this could be the biggest new discovery since jitter.

Well just based on how editorial timelines go this was already started before I posted( for which I am a bit surprised either JA or Mikey dint mention it). So I for one feel Stereophile has done the right thing in reviewing and covering the claim! And I am glad they did and think that is true journalistic integrity. That being said I think it behooves...and even requires...that to maintain that integrity that Stereophile( most notably JA) should now proceed to independently confirm or dispute the findings. Of course this is just my opinion but I do seem to remember JA among others of course leading the charge to investigate the findings and effects of Jitter.

As for trusting Mikeys ears ( or even JA for that matter) I for do. Over the last 20-25 years of reading Stereophile I have found that Mikey and I have only disagreed on one product and JA and I two....(FYI the Sota Cosmos and the Cosmos v. Linn Sondek). So if they say they hear a difference I for one believe that they really do hear a difference. Where we possibly may differ is the reason why..just because they hear a difference doesn't mean it is because of these new measurement findings...yet. So now we have a "scientific" finding and just like any other claim in the scientific world it is not peer accepted until it is verified by an independent test. I suggest and respectively ask Stereophile to take this up. And yes I do know this could and will takes months and months of proper and legitimate work. But I think its worth it. So that being said why not publish at least a blurb...even right here that you are proceeding with a full "follow up" on these new measurement criteria for future publication in an upcoming issue?????

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 4 days ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm
BigBuck....

I do not disagree about the quasi mysticism of some audio claims and have myself noted that the price of such devices is almost always way, way in excess of its cost. That said, I would be interested in JA's measurements of those power devices and his opinion about the effect of such measurments...I thought Mr. Fremers review was informative.

Put another way, while I discount the magic box's as the audio equivalent of the 19th century's embrace of spiritualism, I lust after the power gear...

music or sound
music or sound's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: May 26 2011 - 2:02pm
objective reporting

The reason for Stereophile being the only audio magazine I am subscribing to is that there are more objective articles mostly enhanced through JA measurements. MF's "Analog Corner" only reflects the sale verbiage of Shunyata.  Newly invented acronyms like DTCD are not explaining the measurement technique (and more obsuring them - one feels stupid not knowing what that is). As far as I can figure out these measurements are not made with AC like a power cord or conditioner would use but by discharging large capacitors (1/e functions and not sinewaves). I consider these measurements as presented missleading (also published in Stereophile as Shunyate Ads).  The graphs show no difference up to 15A or 20A - anything beyond will trigger the circuit breakers! Time differences are in µsec but pulse width of conventional rectified power supplies are in several msec (would 0.1% matter?). Are power cords and conditioner not affecting the sound quality of switching power supplies?

I am expecting sufficient technical expertise in reporting - that's why I respect JA but not MF. I want critical reviews and not reiterations of sales literature - it's now very easy to find it for most companies on line (URL suffices). I am fully aware that technical data are not sufficient to explain the sonic qualities but how can I trust the perceptive objectivity of the reviewer? The review of a single component makes me wonder if the reviewer uses this item to supplement his (no her yet) system. In this issue is also a follow up of audience adept response but I have no idea how these 2 different power conditioners are comparing - the reason I want to read about equipment is that I have an idea what to test (it's anyhow difficult to find a dealer).

john abramson
john abramson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: Jan 30 2011 - 10:23am
it appears that "Mikey" and

it appears that "Mikey" and "Big Buck" haven entered into  useless "pissing contest". my strong suggestion for dispute resolution would be via  two out of three  10 point games of one on one half court game b-ball.

junior high school school yard dispute resolution did have functional moments; players got to expend some testosterone with a clear undisputable outcome. ! at least they were more functional and entertaining the endless junior high school sarcase generated by email.

now, you two only have to decide who will bring the ball and on which coast to play. that should not be too hard.

 

john

 

Caelin Gabriel
Caelin Gabriel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 7 months ago
Joined: Dec 21 2011 - 10:12am
Objective and thoughtful responses are appreciated

Hello John,

Thank you for the questions that seem to be reasonable.  I see that you desire and appreciate a rational and technically compelling approach to the articles that you read.  But, let's put Mr. Fremer's article into perspective.  He was doing a subjective review of the Triton power conditioner and he included technical information about how the conditioner was designed.  Obviously Michael obtained that information from Shunyata Research, portions of which he decided to include in the article.  The article is not, nor was it intended to be, a technical treatise on DTCD Analysis.  At the end of the article is a link to our website, where you could find a more complete explanation of DTCD, including a block diagram of the DTCD Analyser and a complete and very technical explanation of how and why we created the testing methodology.

Since you excpect a certain level of due diligence from the reviewers at Stereophile, I would have thought you would have practiced that same careful approach before making poorly informed responses about the DTCD Analysis. 

Let's start with what we are claiming - this from our FAQs on DTCD:

What kind of claims are you making regarding DTCD?
We are simply saying that:
There are audible and visual performance differences between power cords (and other AC power products).

Some of these differences can be directly attributable to Dynamic Transient Current Delivery.

We have developed a device and methodology to measure power products using the DTCD Analyzer.

============================

And to be very clear we also say that DTCD is NOT the only or even the most technically relevant difference.  It is only one that can be measured and would seem to be highly relevant since it has to do with current delivery.  Relevant because a power cord's singular purpose is to deliver current to the device to which it is connected.

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-faq.html#_2

============================

You came up with some very reasonable questions that any intelligent person might ask about a testing methodology that seems to be new and different.

The graphs show no difference up to 15A or 20A - anything beyond will trigger the circuit breakers! Time differences are in µsec but pulse width of conventional rectified power supplies are in several msec (would 0.1% matter?).

These questions and many more like them have already been posted on our website for many months.  I would respectfully ask you to take a look at them.  Your questions and others like the following are presented:

Why did Shunyata Research create DTCD and the DTCD Analyzer?

What equipment was used for the testing?

Why is the amperage in the graphs so high?

Microseconds seems like an unreasonably short period of time to measure current. Why is that?

If the standard power cord slows current delivery, doesn't it just take a bit longer to fill the storage capacitors?

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-whitepaper.html

============================

We are more than happy to engage in reasonable debate with reasonable and respectful people.  

I consider these measurements as presented missleading (also published in Stereophile as Shunyate Ads). 

So, John, I really don't feel that this comment was called for since we have published technical explanations, charts, graphs and commonly asked questions regarding DTCD.  If you dispute the technical reasoning or information then please take the time to inform yourself first.

Caelin Gabriel

Shunyata Research

 

 

Caelin Gabriel
Caelin Gabriel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 7 months ago
Joined: Dec 21 2011 - 10:12am
apologies to John A - the

apologies to John A - the above response should have been to the ubiquitous, ever present and cloaked anonymous person, in this case  "music or sound"

Michael Fremer
Michael Fremer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 1 week ago
Joined: Jun 26 2006 - 9:49am
And just what is a review about then?

As a reviewer, my job is to provide background on products and give the manufacturer's rationale for a product. When presenting the claims, they are presented as claims not as facts. That is why I am careful to say "it is claimed," (etc.) in reviews that I write.

 

I strongly resent being called a shill in so many words for repeating the manufacturer's claims. If a manufacturer's claims are deemed ridiculous, the reader can draw the right conclusion. 

This happens in reviews of every kind of product from amplifiers to speakers but somehow the same process kicks up a s....tstorm when it's applied to power conditioners and cables. 

In this case, the claims are backed up with a lot of research and factual backup. 

Yet the reactive "religion" accusation comes anyway!

john abramson
john abramson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: Jan 30 2011 - 10:23am
apology

no sweat.  i remain convinced that one on one half court, double possession, is the way out of the perpetual push, tug and vitriol of the above emails ( your email was purely civilized).

john

BigBuck
BigBuck's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: May 26 2011 - 9:13pm
A nerve has obviously been struck in this operation.

I don't doubt that Shunyata's products can make a useful difference in audio system performance when the AC supply quality is not what it should be. Apart from that, I'll keep my opinions to myself. 

Happy Holidays to all our Stereophile readers, editors, publishers and contributors!  

returnstackerror
returnstackerror's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 3 days ago
Joined: May 17 2007 - 8:32pm
BigBuck doesnt suck

I have to say, there is a lot of truth in what Buck says about the review.

I would guess that 95% of the printed space used does parrot either material from the manufacturers web site or the designer himself, with only the last paragraph attempting to do any critical listening.

And the opening paragraph  for example (which doesnt appear to be "tongue in cheek") states that DTCD finally provides a way to prove power products work. But the proof of such a statement isnt via independant verifcation but just acceptance of the manufacturers marketing material.

Given that power products have always been controversial and given (I think) that Mickey lives in NY where power delivery is surely affected by population density, he could have stretched his legs a bit, gone to some audiophile friends places where he knew they had persistent or periodic good AND bad periods of power delivery and done some testing in challenging situations.  

Just the same as you would test say a speaker with different types of music and amplifiers. And especially for a product that he says finally has no downside given he described in several places that prior products had both an upside and a downside.

Summary: setting aside any complaints about the potential shrilling, the part of the review that can clearly be seen as an actual product test was in my opinion poorly executed.

 

jgossman
jgossman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 17 hours ago
Joined: Aug 18 2011 - 6:21am
With respect?

I wasn't aware power conditioning was particularly controversial?  I use a Quantam Octave (Now a Nordost product) and it's really great.  I've never met an audiophile who says there is no improvement when using a good power conditioner.  On back to using a heavier wiring all the way back to the box.  It all matters.  Remember, an amplifier is essentially a DC modulator.  And a power supply is just an AC purifier/rectifier.  So, crap in - crap out.  And the better your AC, the better your Amp.  It goes to reason that if your amp is pulling a lot of current, that the faster a cable can deliver that current, the better.

tom collins
tom collins's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 10 months ago
Joined: Apr 3 2007 - 11:54am
i don't know jg

my experience with power conditioners has been mixed.  most of the ones i have heard take something away in return for a little quieter background.  the something taken away is usually the "life".  except for the running springs dmitri, i have always found them to be detrimental.  i did not use the dmitri for a long enough time to make an absolute conclusion, but it was the best i had heard.  i have heard some of the passive nordost labeled products that sounded promising at the dealer, but had not heard in my system.

best,

tom

soulful.terrain
soulful.terrain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 22 2010 - 12:15pm
Religious doctrine?

What religious doctrine are you speaking of?

5 point Calvinism? Dispensationalism? Roman Catechism? Buddhism's 7 pillars?

..only joking. ;-)

Glotz
Glotz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
Joined: Nov 20 2008 - 9:30am
GD it all, what luck...

I was thrilled to see MF's response in this month's letters section regarding the cost of cartridges, and I'm afraid that the deluge of bullshit from the usual suspects and other brainless entities will turn him off again, given the assinine comments about his column last month (and I'm sure every month).

Error will continue to pretend he is the assistant editor for Stereophile, and I hope all of us will make him feel like he is jobless.  Same goes for the rest of the assholes that try to rationalize their hatred this way. 

returnstackerror wrote:

Summary: setting aside any complaints about the potential shrilling, the part of the review that can clearly be seen as an actual product test was in my opinion poorly executed.

It's a column not a review, and you don't work for the magazine.  STFU.

The same applies to Buck... piss off- No one is going to convince you of anything.  You dont add a damn thing and character assasinations are worthless.

Don't read the magazine if you think they are all lying to you.

NOTHING is added to audio discussion by this monthly bullshit , and it reflects by the lack of substantive input in the audio forums.  Look at February- One response?!?

PS- I would like more reviews of the more affordable Soundsmith cartridges in the future from Mikey.  I need a great backup cart. 

BigBuck
BigBuck's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: May 26 2011 - 9:13pm
Reply to "Glotz"

Your insults are wasted on me.  

I don't care a whit what you think, but on behalf of the other readers of this site, let me suggest that you restrain your vitriol.  It's immature and, really, impotent.

  • X
    Enter your Stereophile.com username.
    Enter the password that accompanies your username.
    Loading