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Buddha
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Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal takes or experiences?

Aloha,

In your travels through the Hi Fi hobby, have you ever come to a line in the sand, across which you have seen products that fail to establish their worth in terms of value regarding their performance?

Failed sonically? In terms of expected reliability? In terms of product support from the manufacturer?

Do you think it is fair of anyone to set this line in the sand? Is it fair to discuss it, or are all products "worth what they can get away with charging?"

Are there products that, knowing what goes into them, you could never feel comfortable with based on their market price....no matter the sound?

How do you determine where your borders in the realm of value lie?

jazzfan
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Re: Hi FI products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

Are we talking snake oil here or just "normal" but over priced products?

For example, high end network and USB cables - pure and utter BS.

On the other hand, although widely debated, after market power cords can often yield a noticeable improvement but many people have a price point beyond which no power cord will be deemed worthwhile.

So exactly what do you have in mind?

Buddha
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Re: Hi FI products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Are we talking snake oil here or just "normal" but over priced products?

How about actual audio products - part of the electronic chain OK? Electrical source to speaker, say.

For example, high end network and USB cables - pure and utter BS.

On the other hand, although widely debated, after market power cords can often yield a noticeable improvement but many people have a price point beyond which no power cord will be deemed worthwhile.

Any price point that would automatically fail the "value test" for you? Cords that have failed to perform?

So exactly what do you have in mind?

Just interested on where people have encountered a "failure of value" and what their personal experiences have been and how it may have colored their experience in the hobby. Looking for points after which no product could offer sufficient value for somebody....or if such a point exists....and if it is valid to criticize a product for having failed a person's "value" considerations.

heck, we could even talk about how we define the term "value" in Hi Fi!

michaelavorgna
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

I use my larger scales.

If...it..weighs the same as a duck, it's not worth the asking price.

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
I use my larger scales.

If...it..weighs the same as a duck, it's not worth the asking price.

Donald, Howard, Mallard Fillmore, Daffy, Daisy, Huey, Dewey, Louie, Ludwig Von Drake, or other?

I asked for specifics, dammit.

Oh, wait....did you mean Scrooge McDuck?

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

Canard

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

This is like porn. It's hard to describe, but I know it when I hear it!

Cables immediately come to mind. I know they make a difference and in some instances, a big difference. But, the prices of most of these audio goodies is offensively absurd to my sensibilities. NASA wouldn't even spend this sort of stupid money on toilet seats for the space shuttle.

My bullshit meter is pretty sensitive and I know when a company is charging a ridiculous price on some of their gear just because they can and they want to attain a certain status or level of elitism in their offerings. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy their lower priced stuff, but the jump to the "very best" isn't meant to be a value offering, it's meant to be a status symbol for both the buyer and the builder.

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Canard
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
I know they make a difference and in some instances, a big difference.

aye?


Quote:
My bullshit meter is pretty sensitive

WOW!

ncdrawl
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

I think anything over say.. 5.5 grand.

Monty
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

My bullshit meter is indicating you think I'm full of bullshit. See, I told you it was uncanny!

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Aloha,
In your travels through the Hi Fi hobby, have you ever come to a line in the sand, across which you have seen products that fail to establish their worth in terms of value regarding their performance?


All so called full range single driver dynamic speakers and many single ended amps using 300B tubes & many expensive moving coil cartridges aren't worth the asking price to my ears. CD's & SACS's are often absurdly expensive. I also draw a line in the sand if I think far too much of the asking price relates to unnecessary cosmetics, especially when the end result is ostentatious and often just plain ugly.

Quote:
Failed sonically? In terms of expected reliability? In terms of product support from the manufacturer?

All Sony products I've owned came with appalling back up service. Four months to have a spare part shipped from Japan and no extension on the warrantee? That's criminal.

Quote:
Do you think it is fair of anyone to set this line in the sand? Is it fair to discuss it, or are all products "worth what they can get away with charging?"

The line in the sand as regards reliability is seldom set by audioporn magazines as their readers want reviews of new gear, not gear that's been around long enough to measure reliability. However, that shouldn't prevent the audioporn magazines from giving honest assessments of particular brands reliability as experience over time must tell them something.

Quote:
Are there products that, knowing what goes into them, you could never feel comfortable with based on their market price....no matter the sound?

Yes, overpriced boutique interconnects and cables. Having made my own interconnects and cables and finding them better than many that sell for insane prices I suggest this is one of the most common hi-fi rip-offs.

Quote:
How do you determine where your borders in the realm of value lie?

Hard to set any objective standard for this kind of thing as the person handing over the hard-earned cash is the only one who gets to set a value on their own possessions. That's a different scale though than the relationship between manufacturing, advertising & research costs as a portion of the retail price.

JIMV
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

The original direct drive Technics turntables

Carvers original 'Sonic Holigraphy' devices

Sony's original PCM F1 Digital recorder

Any record costing over $50 or any CD for more than $20..

Power conditioners that cost in the thousands (simply plugging in a dedicated line does more for far less)

Any item with a cost over $50K...

Any cable costing more than $1K

Any RAP recording in any format

High Def recordings of unknown music by unknown performers costing more than $5

(this is fun)

Cardis caps when one can get the same thing for 1/3 the price from other makers.

jazzfan
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Any RAP recording in any format

High Def recordings of unknown music by unknown performers costing more than $5

I second on both!

I would also add any recording by anyone who has ever been on American Idol costing more than 0.000000000000000000000000001 cents!

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

You guys have obviously never heard...

"Everything's Gonna Be Alright" by Naughty By Nature.

Biz Markie's "Just a Friend."

MC 900 Foot Jesus' "If I Only Had a Brain."

Dre's and Tupac's "California Love."

Dre's and Snoop's "Nuthin' But A G Thang" or "Gin and Juice."

Everlast's "What It's Like."

Lou Reed's "Walk On The Wild Side."

The Nails "88 Lines About 44 Women."

Etc....

Hip Hop can be killer great!

JIMV
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

If you say so...I can see it now...

(sorry about the giant photo...fixed I think)

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Hip Hop can be killer great!

Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

Spoken word along with music had been around long before hip-hop/rap ever came along. The main difference between most spoken word with music versus rap is that most spoken word with music at least tries to have some meaningful prose. Rap, at least in its present form, is all about boasting with some, but very very rare, clever rhymes and lots and lots of very foul language.

During the early years of hip-hop/rap there were many attempts to combine rap with other musical forms such as rock and jazz but since rap is such a musical dead end these efforts have long since ceased. Add in the fact that many rap stars eventually turn to other, more advanced musical forms, such as R&B or soul, in order to further their careers and expand their range. Rap has become a niche genre similar to death metal and smooth jazz - good for a quick buck but completely devoid of any musical merit.

However with all that said the worst rap is still way better than the best of American Idol!

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Spoken word along with music had been around long before hip-hop/rap ever came along. The main difference between most spoken word with music versus rap is that most spoken word with music at least tries to have some meaningful prose. Rap, at least in its present form, is all about boasting with some, but very very rare, clever rhymes and lots and lots of very foul language.

I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

jazzfan
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

You're 100% right when it comes to present day rap but spoken word with music can and often is a pleasant experience. For example much of the work of the beat poets done in the 1950s. Hip and cool with bop not hop.

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

I think of rap about how I do Beat Poetry.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

Quote:
I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

You're 100% right when it comes to present day rap but spoken word with music can and often is a pleasant experience. For example much of the work of the beat poets done in the 1950s. Hip and cool with bop not hop.

Also almost entirely done with acoustic instruments, not overamped, distorted electronic ones.

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

Dudes, don't make me get Ariel.


Quote:

I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

Jazzfan, how often do you hear that sort of "amusical" complaint about free jazz?

"Atonal crap that I can't tap my foot to with no decent lyrics, that stuff sounds how a de Kooning looks!"

If it's bad poetry that offends you, you just eliminated 95% + of popular music.

"Lay lady, lay. Lay upon my big ol' brass bed."

"Why don't we do it in the road? Why don't we do it in the road? Why don't we do do it the road? No one will be watching us. Why don't we do it in the road?"

Steve Allen used to make a killing with this "bad poetry."

I'd accept "not to my taste," but criticism based on what someone puts forth as anything more objective risks being "hoisted" by the petard of his own tastes!

I hate lyrics cut and paste, but here's verse 2 of "Everything's Gonna Be Alright" by Naught By Nature...

"A ghetto bastard, born next to the projects
Livin' in the slums with bums, I SAID NOW WHY TREACH
Why do I have to be like this? momma said I'm priceless
So I am all worthless, starved, THATS JUST WHAT BEING NICE GETS
Sometimes I wish I could afford a pistol then, though
TO stop THE hell, I would've ended things a while ago
I ain't have jack but a black hat and napsack
Four squad stolen in cars in a blackjack
Drop that, and now you want me to rap and give?
Say somethin' positive? Well positive ain't where I lived
I lived right around a corner from west hell
Two blocks from south shit, it was in a jail cell
The sun never shone on my side of the street, see
And only once or twice a week i would speak
I walked alone, my state of mind was USUALLY home
I couldn't keep a girl, they wanted kids for cause of chrome
Some life, iF you ain't wear gold your style was old
And you got more juice than dope for every bottle sold
Hell no, I say there's gotta be a better way
But hey, never gamble IN THAT game that you can't play
I'm slowin' and flowin' and goin' in on and knowin' not now
How will I do it, how will I make it? I won't, that's how
Why me, huh?"

I'm not saying it's James Joyce, but they pack more non-repetitive lyrics into that song than an entire album by the Moody Blues or whatever codger rock many of us call music.

NO FLAMES HERE, JUST TAKING PART IN THE THREAD DRIFT WHILE WE WAIT TO SEE IF ANY OF THE PRICE IS NO OBJECT TYPES CAN COME UP WITH ANY BAD VALUE EXAMPLES.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

No, they're both a subset of frontal lobotomy.

JIMV
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

This...


Quote:
Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal takes or experiences?

is the topic. I contend the content of the music we are trying to reproduce is also subject to that 'value test' and RAP fails, loudly.

In Fact it is little more than a misspelling...They left off the first 'C'...

They DID ask for a 'personal take'.

j_j
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
This...


Quote:
Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal takes or experiences?

is the topic. I contend the content of the music we are trying to reproduce is also subject to that 'value test' and RAP fails, loudly.

In Fact it is little more than a misspelling...They left off the first 'C'...

They DID ask for a 'personal take'.

Well, occasionally you get it right, I have to admit.

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

Man, what a heaping hen house of hip hop haters!

Not really, just went for a little alliteration.

It's not like I was trying to defend Wagner!

OK, back to it....

Lousy value:

Please forgive me....

After I sought out the Audio Note AN-E speakers I felt like they offered poor value.

It seemed an example of a speaker that must break you in rather than the other way around. I did not see 12,000 dollars worth of effort being put forth.

Not that they shouldn't be allowed to exist, just that they did not live up to expectation.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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Dudes, don't make me get Ariel.

Best. Comment. Ever.

jazzfan
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
OK, back to it....

Lousy value:

Okay, but you knew this was coming. Any silver audio disc player costing more than $3,000 and any CD transport regardless of price. I say this because, especially the CD transport part, because for a mere $300 one can get a Squeezebox Touch, which is equal to, if not better than, just about any mega-buck CD transport.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

Quote:
OK, back to it....

Lousy value:

Okay, but you knew this was coming. Any silver audio disc player costing more than $3,000 and any CD transport regardless of price. I say this because, especially the CD transport part, because for a mere $300 one can get a Squeezebox Touch, which is equal to, if not better than, just about any mega-buck CD transport.

While that's a comforting thought, I suspect it might be rather difficult to prove in practice. If you've evalauted the Squeezebox Touch against "just about" all megabuck transports I will retract my comment without prejudice.

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

MC 900 Foot Jesus?

That's my friend Mark. He was a music student for awhile at UNT. He still lives in Dallas

He is a very nice guy, super laid back and very smart.
Adept at classical and jazz.
There are other musical hip/hoppers out there.
Check out Ojos de Brujo for some very sophisticated flamenco hiphop. Complex rythms with melodic counterpoint.

You skeptics out there, don't dismiss rap, hiphop based on the commercial junk you hear on the radio. There is some very good stuff out there.

smejias
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?


I've wondered about that, too. But I think of them as two separate, independent things that sometimes come together. They come together nicely, I think, in a song like this:
Theophilus London, featuring Dev Hynes and Solange Knowles: "Flying Overseas."


Quote:
Rap, at least in its present form, is all about boasting with some, but very very rare, clever rhymes and lots and lots of very foul language.


Not all about boasting and foul language, though that is a part of it. But a lot of music -- from Delta blues to Detroit rock to Philly soul to NYC salsa -- employs boasting and foul language.


Quote:
During the early years of hip-hop/rap there were many attempts to combine rap with other musical forms such as rock and jazz but since rap is such a musical dead end these efforts have long since ceased.


I've lost track of rap. For awhile, it was my favorite type of music, and my favorite artists were: A Tribe Called Quest, Leaders of the New School, De La Soul, Digable Planets, The Pharcyde, Pete Rock & CL Smooth, Gangstarr, Black Sheep, Del the Funky Homosapien...

These guys made great music, and I do know they continue to inspire lots of other artists. Rap, I think, is like anything else: There's more than what we see/hear on the surface.

smejias
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

It was explained to me like this: Rap is the music of the hip-hop lifestyle. Similarly, graffiti is hip-hop's graphic art (or one of them).

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

MC 900 Foot Jesus?

That's my friend Mark. He was a music student for awhile at UNT. He still lives in Dallas

He is a very nice guy, super laid back and very smart.
Adept at classical and jazz.
There are other musical hip/hoppers out there.
Check out Ojos de Brujo for some very sophisticated flamenco hiphop. Complex rythms with melodic counterpoint.

You skeptics out there, don't dismiss rap, hiphop based on the commercial junk you hear on the radio. There is some very good stuff out there.

Wow! Small damn world!

Tell him hello and that I miss him!

You Dallas guys need to get your Monkeyhaus mojo working! I'd travel for that!

Ariel Bitran
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

to quote KRS-1: "Rap is something you do, but hip-hop is something you live.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

Quote:

MC 900 Foot Jesus?

That's my friend Mark. He was a music student for awhile at UNT. He still lives in Dallas

He is a very nice guy, super laid back and very smart.
Adept at classical and jazz.
There are other musical hip/hoppers out there.
Check out Ojos de Brujo for some very sophisticated flamenco hiphop. Complex rythms with melodic counterpoint.

You skeptics out there, don't dismiss rap, hiphop based on the commercial junk you hear on the radio. There is some very good stuff out there.

Wow! Small damn world!

Tell him hello and that I miss him!

You Dallas guys need to get your Monkeyhaus mojo working! I'd travel for that!

I used to see Mark all the time back in the State Bar days.
The owner of the bar was a big supporter of MC.

Haven't seen Mark recently but I bet I will the next time I get to Lee Harvey's (we have some great bars here)

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

Quote:
Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

It was explained to me like this: Rap is the music of the hip-hop lifestyle. Similarly, graffiti is hip-hop's graphic art (or one of them).

And Graffiti is to art what Rap is to music...

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:
next time I get to Lee Harvey's (we have some great bars here)

Creative Contraption Event tonight. Should be a hoot!

Ariel Bitran
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

its so easy to hate on something that one does not know about. the history of graffiti is rich and inspiring. It is a deep act of personal expression and making yourself known out of the masses. The best rise to the top.

Please continue the hip-hop discussion on why hip-hop sucks thread in our music section.

Buddha, in this thread, essentially are you asking if we've ever bought a component that after we took it home (or spending an extensive period of time with it), it simply wasn't good enough?

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

Buddha, in this thread, essentially are you asking if we've ever bought a component that after we took it home (or spending an extensive period of time with it), it simply wasn't good enough?

Yea and no.

Could also be via audition or shopping when one did not buy a piece of gear, could be something like looking at a 100,000 kilodollar piece of kit and having a part fall off into your hand....etc...

I was thinking of times you've experienced gear and either sonically or for other reasons, you just thought, "No way, man."

My experience with the Audio Note speakers was based on repeated exposures to the product in different environments and saying to myself, "Twelve big for this is a ridiculous thing."

The question could also be regarding gear that performed well, but not well enough TO YOU to justify the price tag.

Perhaps a disc player that cost 6 grand and beat out a 45 dollar Phillips player, but not by enough to make you think there was 6 thousand dollars worth of superiority.

As you saw in the other thread, it's easy to bang on one person for "failing" to get the value of something like the LARS amp, so I thought I'd see if anyone else had any similar "experiences" of the hobby's machinery.

SPOILER ALERT: Only Ariel can keep reading....

I have a secret purpose as well....and predicted that none of the "it's worth any price they can get for it" crowd could come up with any examples of poor value in high end Hi Fi.

Buddha
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take

More thread drift....

I also like good graffiti....

Some examples

Keith Haring's chalk graffiti really made the world a better place....to me.

I also like "people graffiti" alot....

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


Quote:

its so easy to hate on something that one does not know about. the history of graffiti is rich and inspiring. It is a deep act of personal expression and making yourself known out of the masses. The best rise to the top.

Please continue the hip-hop discussion on why hip-hop sucks thread in our music section.

Buddha, in this thread, essentially are you asking if we've ever bought a component that after we took it home (or spending an extensive period of time with it), it simply wasn't good enough?

Alas, it is both vandalism and artistically crap. If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc, not simply paint over accompanied by considerable profanity.

Art might be in the eye of the beholder but is it art when 99% of its recipients immediately try to remove the gift from their property.

If I woke up tomorrow and found this:

on my front porch, I would not spend the rest of the day trying to remove it from my property, accompanied by profanity in 3 languages and profound question as to the intellectual merit of the dolts who graced my property with their 'art'.

Again, if it is art, folk would buy it, not try to remove it as fast as possible. This is simply particularly nasty and hard to remove trash.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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More thread drift....

I also like good graffiti....

Some examples

Keith Haring's chalk graffiti really made the world a better place....to me.

I also like "people graffiti" alot....

Body painting is only graffiti when the body being painted is best left well covered...

smejias
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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc.


They do. Have you heard of Bansky? David Choe? Basquiat?

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Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.


Finally some sensible analysis of this form and from a practicing musician. For me it's not just the monotonous A-B-A-B rhyme scheme that's dull as dishwater and mismatched to the lyrics, the music's so often boring as well with a dreary tum de da de tum de da de format that's so damned predictable and worse than uninteresting that it's often just damned irritating.
Small things amuse small minds ?

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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Quote:
Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.


Finally some sensible analysis of this form and from a practicing musician. For me it's not just the monotonous A-B-A-B rhyme scheme that's dull as dishwater and mismatched to the lyrics, the music's so often boring as well with a dreary tum de da de tum de da de format that's so damned predictable and worse than uninteresting that it's often just damned irritating.
Small things amuse small minds ?

Well, it ain't church music and probably wasn't intended for middle aged white guys (or older) to sit and critique.

It's kind of going out, partying music, with the beats per minute set at a multiple of the typical pulse rate rather than a fraction of it.

What, you want that everything should sound like Lon Cheney tickling the ivories?

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc, not simply paint over accompanied by considerable profanity.

after the initial public shock to graffiti which came about in the late 1970s in NYC, graffiti made its way into the art world as hip-hop culture turned into the ultimate for of underground art culture. many graffiti artists profited during this time as their work was traded (many were also taken advantage of -- while their work was of intense cultural value, they were often taken advantage of by art buyers and dealers).


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Art might be in the eye of the beholder but is it art when 99% of its recipients immediately try to remove the gift from their property.

I will agree that its unfortunate that most graffiti are simple tags that are mostly sloppy line drawings, but even the best tags not only deserve respect but should be appreciated for their 'style'. Graffiti came about as a way for the many nameless bronx teens to make a voice for themself by creating an identity which they could make everpresent through 'tagging'. Style and bravery were highly regarded in this action.


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If I woke up tomorrow and found this:

on my front porch, I would not spend the rest of the day trying to remove it from my property, accompanied by profanity in 3 languages and profound question as to the intellectual merit of the dolts who graced my property with their 'art'.

really? if someone painted that on the front of your house you wouldn't say "wtf is this? well this sure is nice, but its coming down right away."?

while graffiti may appear to you as 'non-art' i can guarantee that for kids in art class 10 years from now, it will be up there with printmaking or collage as just another form of art -- this time street art.

the question of whether something is art is all about perspective. so, yes, you are welcome to call graffiti a non-art. i have some gripes with photography that i could share another time. but what i think you cannot deny is that like many other artistic movements, graffiti is based on personal expression and defying the societal norms and rules, like many other previous artistic movements. In addition, the most talented graffiti artists hold the same level of talent as your most talented painters. Thus in the history books, graffiti will be art.


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Again, if it is art, folk would buy it, not try to remove it as fast as possible. This is simply particularly nasty and hard to remove trash.

so if it were the same thing on a canvas, would it be art?

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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Quote:
Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.


Finally some sensible analysis of this form and from a practicing musician. For me it's not just the monotonous A-B-A-B rhyme scheme that's dull as dishwater and mismatched to the lyrics, the music's so often boring as well with a dreary tum de da de tum de da de format that's so damned predictable and worse than uninteresting that it's often just damned irritating.
Small things amuse small minds ?


Well, I'm not saying that all rap follows a simple, tedious rhyme scheme. I'm just saying that some of it does, and, when it does, I find it to be foolish and weak.

The music, however, is some of the most consistently exciting and innovative stuff I think we're likely to hear on pop radio. Rap and hip-hop producers are amazing! In our October 2010 "Recording of the Month," we hear Nick Cave discuss the current state of experimentation in music: "What was considered noise [my italics; he means "noise" in a good sense] maybe 30 years ago is now meat and potatoes of your typical hip-hop track

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc.


They do. Have you heard of Bansky? David Choe? Basquiat?

So the vandalism of a very few is deemed by some of the art challenged to have value...and the other 99.999999% that is simply the destruction of private property? I also must note that the selling price of property suffering the blight of graffiti seldom goes up (as in never).

If one sold a home with a Monet, or a Vermeer, or Sargent included, the price would go up, not down...and one never seems to hear the terms 'blighted', 'ghetto or 'slum' used when real art is an issue.

Do many look for graffiti when looking to buy a home or start a business?

Not on my planet

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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I will agree that its unfortunate that most graffiti are simple tags that are mostly sloppy line drawings, but even the best tags not only deserve respect but should be appreciated for their 'style'. Graffiti came about as a way for the many nameless bronx teens to make a voice for themself by creating an identity which they could make everpresent through 'tagging'. Style and bravery were highly regarded in this action.

Oh for heavens sake...If I was to show up at your home or business, pee on the grass and then spray painted screed on your walls, I suspect you would be less forgiving of my "Style and bravery."

You elevate a temper tantrum coupled with an alarming amount of license with 'art'. If these were well to do white folk going to the hood and vandalizing the private property of poor folk, the art would become what it is in all cases...vandalism.

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Re: Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal take


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but what i think you cannot deny is that like many other artistic movements, graffiti is based on personal expression and defying the societal norms and rules, like many other previous artistic movements.

Art outlasts the fad...if 100 years from now business trashed with the mess are national landmarks, I will concede it was perhaps art, but I expect it to be as long lived as the dutch tulip fad, and other silly ideas embraced by the intelligentsia of the time and now scoffed at as lunacy..

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