I still worry Stew is buying speakers he may put into the same room his current speakers live in, and he will not be well served.

Any way for him to get some home auditions?

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This is a really tough decision. The Duos are better in every respect except for bass. The Focus' bass is much deeper and much more articulate. However, the mids and highs exhibit the kind of delicacy on the Duos that the Focus can't touch at $2-3k more.

Hi AlexO. I've been silently following your quest for speakers. Though my time with high-end equipment has been limited, the trade-off you're talking about here seems to be one of the most prevalent ones in audio. Delicacy/Subtlety/Defintion vs. Impact/Articulate Bass/Fire. For the amount of disposable income that you have to spend, you will have to trade off one of the two. Only unless the buyer has tens of thousands of dollars can he truly find the component that makes up for the trade-offs found in less expensive components. Regardless, as you have described, both are amazing loudspeakers.

This is an investment you plan on sticking with for a while, si? And as you stated in "the saga continues" you enjoy both Bach and Rock. How did the Avantgarde's handle your reference Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here? If they did a good job, I would lean toward the Avantgarde's simply because they do great with your reference and then provide even more. The Bass/slam/impact of that first synthesizer note on the album creates a very different emotional impact than the contact David Gilmour makes against his stratocaster fretboard on those vicious 1 1/2 step bends he's so good at. What moves you more? And if both move you the same, then what type of benefit do you think would inspire you most in future listening?

I believe that the enjoyment of articulate and impactful bass is pretty consistent with all recordings and will give you the same sort of satisfaction. But the nuance and delicacy held within a rock recording or string quartet will provide you with two very separate yet equally enthralling listening experiences.

Time for a bad analogy: its like a pizza. The Focus's always have tons of cheese and sauce and is always delicious and even loaded with every type of meat! Freaking great. But, the Duos are a more tasteful and savory pie. More specific in the topping choice, but with less fatty pepperoni and perfectly sliced tomatoes and fresh black olives. There may not be as much cheese, but each slice (recording) tastes so individually amazing.

Good points, Ariel - very thoughtful.

I would happily sacrifice bass slam for delicacy and subtlety.

Additionally, the Duos' high efficiency allows an unlimited amplification possibilities - now and later.

Very good Ariel, but if the more "tasteful and savory" pizza has anchovies (metallic ring in the midrange) and you don't like anchovies, can you live with it??? Some faults and compromises just can't be lived with over the long haul.

This isn't inconsistant with what your saying, "chose what floats your boat the highest" but you have to be careful when getting a couple of things that you really like a lot, not to accept one compromise that might annoy the hell out of you over the next few years.

If our man Alex also loves female vocals (I don't recall if he does) then that metallic ring will just eat him up. It'll ruin much of his listening.

Realizing that we'll ultimately accept a compromise or two, I find it useful to prioritize my priorities. For me it's:

Accurate midrange above all (female vocal and trumpet must sound right)
Great dynamic range (you can't "get" Mahler's 6th with limited dynamic range)
Imaging is next (I like it wide and deep)
Natural bass is next (it can't be bloated or artificially inflated)
Finally, bass extension is least important, even though I love it, I know it's expensive and put it off to last.

Dave

I cannot recall that sound from the Avantgardes.

The pair you auditioned are the pair you'd have to buy, right? Any chance of listening with your own ancillaries?

My curioisty is piqued.

Anyway, as you and others have mentioned, you can't upgrade the Legacy in terms of top end, but you may be able to enhance the Duo's bottom end down the road after your war chest has been replenished.

Still, I can't put my finger on that metallic sound.

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Still, I can't put my finger on that metallic sound.

Nor I, but Alex strikes me as having a pretty good set of ears so I am certain he has heard something.

Perhaps it is the other equipment, as you suggest.

Cheap electronics? Noooo, VanAlstine is mortally priced, well designed, super reliable. Latest Exicon MOSFETS on the amplifiers, guess where they are used besides AVA...you'd be amazed. 1% mettal film, all kinds of superstable components which is why AVA doesn't require all that audiophile burn it, bake in, and all that other hocum, 01% THD 800V/uS slew rates....I bet the recordings I did on the mortally priced $990 shipped MR-1000 KORG will run circles around MF's $100K TT....it just knowing which mortally priced devices do what they should. AVA has done that for almost 40 years. Hybrid with like 6 regulated power supplies , I bet some $10K pre amps don't have that, each tube is indiviudally powered,they will drive anything, anyway, not influenced by things that make those expensive amps go all twisty and change sound. Stabel, reliable, sonic bliss, not cheap, just wll made, well designed, no 1/2" plates that ain't needed...if you check out teh ground planes on teh pre amp ckt board, double sided board, etc, hardly cheap, open one up, quality in every detail, not magic, just good design, based on solid electical and electronics. And yes the remote is motor controlled, pot, no relays, resistor ladder bridge, as in the Conrad Johnson, that has relays in the vol ckt...not cool, they ain't cheap, just fancy cases.....AVA not cheap, priced for mortals....

Not cheap in any aspect...just priced in reality, for mortals. All top quality parts and ckt design http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/preamplifier/ultra_ec.htm

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We heard Whispers at DUP's place and they were absolutely stellar being driven by cheap electronics. We auditioned them at a dealer and they were comparable to what he has now, that being driven by his electronics. So, I doubt that Whispers will sound any worse than what he has now. They may sound as good or better for a lot less money.

This is another rare occasion where I'm with DUP-- I wouldn't knock Van Alstine so easily. He's more than occasionally obnoxious, (ever read his Audio Basics newsletters? he sometimes makes Peter Aczel seem mellow by comparison), he holds grudges forever,* he does a lot of things that "traditional" audiophiles find anathema (uses opamps in preamps, doesn't believe in cables or magic parts much), and he doesn't charge nearly what the market could bear for his designs (probably because he started out as a kit modder and repairperson and is still not much more than a mom and pop operation), but his stuff is often astonishingly good for the money. I haven't heard any recent designs of his, but as recently as 1992 or so, I would have put his MOSFET power amps up there with almost anything class AB solid state that was out there at the time-- Bryston, Krell, you name it. His solid state preamps were almost as good. Can't speak to his tube stuff, or his recent stuff, because I haven't heard it.

* I recently bought Audio Amateur's 1970s collection CD and have been having a blast reading it. Walt Jung gave Van Alstine a good-but-not-great review for a Dynaco 400 mod in about 1978. Van Alstine was still taking potshots at Jung in Audio Basics (downloadable at Van Alstine's website) well into the '90s.

I think the Dyna PAT-5 BiFET ckt and Dyna 416 with the outboard capacitor bank C-100 and more output transistors was a VanAlstine design, from what i understand he was never compensated properly for the stuff. His current Ultra hybrid stuff is superb, sonically and super reliable, his Hafler rebuilds make sonic miracles and BEASTS of power clean, musical, unflappable AVA WATTS, it is superb. Pass advertises his "first" tiny watts matter,with AVA it all matters, and it works without the BS quotient priced into the products. Combined with Legacy it's sonic bliss

My own personal opinion of Van Alstine amplifiers and preamplifiers is that they are slightly colored. I have given DUP a lot of static about opting for this gear because, well, he is DUP, and I am not. A few of you out there enjoy the abuse he rountinely offers members of this forum -- I do not. Every preamp, amplifier, and preamp/amplifier combination I have heard by Van Alstine has a tipped-up upper midrange. Given the laid-back voicing of the Whispers, the Van Alstine's colorations are complementary. In terms of reliability and overall build quality, the Van Alstine gear is definitely high-fidelity. I just can't stand that upper midrange "splash," and the electronic sheen it adds to otherwise neutral components. I have never heard this amplification with the Avante Garde speakers, but I would predict a disaster.

I also wanted to respond to Alex O's descriptions of his speaker auditions with his friend. My comment/question would be, did you bring a good representation of your friend's software to the listening sessions? This is an absolute must. Before you invest mega-bucks in a system upgrade, you had damned well better know how these upgrades can handle the complete range of your recordings. Too often, shoppers bring only their best sounding software to the auditions. By definition (i.e., "best"), you are limiting yourselves to, what, 10%? 20%? of your collections of the music you love. You must know how the upgrades handle the less-than-perfect recordings of the music you will be listening to. Or it is all for nought. Trust me on this. I have been there many times.

This site always highlights the best recordings by the best artists, and that is certainly just. But (again, by definition), the "best" does not represent the variety that resides in your collection. Upgrades are tricky. I know. I have been through dozens of them. There is nothing more disappointing than spending 10-20 large on a vision of perfection, only to discover later that it will play less than half of your collection of the music you love.

You gotta hear the warts, too...

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I bet the recordings I did on the mortally priced $990 shipped MR-1000 KORG will run circles around MF's $100K TT....

Not with the stock ADCs. Unfortunately.

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I bet the recordings I did on the mortally priced $990 shipped MR-1000 KORG will run circles around MF's $100K TT....

Not with the stock ADCs. Unfortunately.

I own the Korg and agree with Elk. Oh man, I'd love to have a Korg with upgraded I/O and a high quality digital out that I could run through the DSD DAC in my Playback Designs MPS-5. Now that would be an incredible rig. Maybe... one day.

Dave

"His current Ultra hybrid stuff is superb, sonically and super reliable, his Hafler rebuilds make sonic miracles and BEASTS of power clean, musical, unflappable AVA WATTS, it is superb. Pass advertises his "first" tiny watts matter,with AVA it all matters, and it works without the BS quotient priced into the products. Combined with Legacy it's sonic bliss "

Hi DUP,

Well he is what Chris H sent me.

"Hello Steve,

I'm pleasantly surprised by how much I like this preamp. As it stands now the 10A has better synergy in my system, so I'll probably sell the Manley Shrimp. The Manley recently bettered the Van Alstine Ultra Hybrid Tube.
My hat's off to you sir, for building such a transparent and musical sounding preamp."

So it looks like the hybrid is at least a couple behind the norm. Maybe you should stop playing salesman?

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I own the Korg and agree with Elk. Oh man, I'd love to have a Korg with upgraded I/O and a high quality digital out that I could run through the DSD DAC in my Playback Designs MPS-5. Now that would be an incredible rig. Maybe... one day.

Given the Korg's popularity I bet there will be upgraded ADC/DAC options before long.

Then it will be killer.

(Nice job Steve! I like Manley gear and to better it is an accomplishment.)

Thanks Elk. I checked out Manley and I like some of their philosophies, especially using no remote. Their components also look nice as well.

I also see that Eastern Electric has introduced an amp that uses the Chinese EL-156 (octal socket version). First company to use the tube in audio, to my knowledge, although I have been thinking about it for some time. The tube is amazingly rugged. They run the tube in pentode mode so I suspect they use feedback.

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Thanks Elk. I checked out Manley and I like some of their philosophies,

And the names are cute, even their pro equipment and Eva is absolutely NUTS.

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They run the tube in pentode mode so I suspect they use feedback.

I suspect ultralinear, yes?

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I bet the recordings I did on the mortally priced $990 shipped MR-1000 KORG will run circles around MF's $100K TT....

Not with the stock ADCs. Unfortunately.

I own the Korg and agree with Elk. Oh man, I'd love to have a Korg with upgraded I/O and a high quality digital out that I could run through the DSD DAC in my Playback Designs MPS-5. Now that would be an incredible rig. Maybe... one day.

Dave

Got any photos of it's interior? I'm curious. I'd mod one up for someone, just for the fun of it. It's always fun to make frankentronics that blow people's minds.

OK. I just went and took a look. PCM4202 is the device in question.

Implementation of chips..by a given 'finished product' manufacturer, be it pioneer all the way to sears, Korg, Yamaha, etc.. all will use a chip EXACTLY as stated in the tech manual for the given chip. They almost NEVER experiment, at all, in my experience.

This means that the implementation and ancillary components that surround and support the ADC and DAC..and every other chip of any kind in the unit can be examined and modified to improve in their 'fidelity', with respects to serving the signal. Not all the difficult if one spends the time. HOWEVER..working on such boards is not for wussies, as I've met few folks who will do it, or go through the effort to work with such complex looking and oh so tiny messes as surface mounted multi-layered boards and circuits.

In conclusion..99.99% of the time, in any given piece of "surface mounted-digital" (and some analog) gear... the exact tech manual implementation is used. I don't care who made it. Even $20k digital units (pro audio) are built the same way. All the same. There are far better ways of doing things. So few pursue it. I think it is a fear that failure rates will go through the roof, and thus prevent the manufacturer from blaming the chip makers..if things go awry.

What I'm saying, is that I can go in there and modify a $1k pro unit to sound beyond that which is available from $20K pro units. And easily, as I've been doing that exact thing for years.

Go for it guys!

I know an ex-Wadia engineer that does amazing mods. He can easily talk through what he would do and why just from a quick look at the insides. Often there really isn't all that much involved.

Got a Korg, ElK? Feelin' brave? I'll hack it up for you. Heh heh.

Hey, I'm in. Tell him he'll have two sales for the price of one. I want upgraded analog in and out and hopefully a hi rez out, suitable for going direct to a high end DAC (AES/EBU preferably, given the limits of my "high end DAC").

I'll take what I can get.

Dave

I don't know if he has played with or even seen the Korg, but give him a call. His name is Steve Huntley (just bought a Porsche at the end of last year so you can talk cars - Steve, Matt Cramer from Bel Canto (heavily modified Evo 8) and I did a great three car run in celebration of his new Porsche last fall).

Steve's business: Great Northern Sound

Send some pics to KBK as well. I bet he will have some suggestions. It's worth checking as the Korg could be killer with a few improvements.

I'm not sure that I'm glad that you told me the Porsche part, now I'm wondering if I can afford his prices.

Dave

"And the names are cute, even their pro equipment and Eva is absolutely NUTS."

Sigh. I once had a German girlfriend named Eva Maria. She was right up there with Ashley Judd.

"They run the tube in pentode mode so I suspect they use feedback."
I suspect ultralinear, yes?"

I think you are right. I see the word pentode but that is used to describe the tube type. Thanks for the correction Elk.

No remote, it's the 21st century, time to even get.......HD, or touch tone phone? no nono, wait.....a ..cell phone. AVA uses a motorized poteniometer, for no ill effects like some times of remote volume control is supposed to do. Yeah, it really sucks when ya can mute it when ya need to.....it's better sounding to get up and tuuuuurn the knob. Especially when you are playing those RECORDS and every 22 minutes or less ya goota flip it, when it comes to the end of teh LP, muting is nice before ya get over and flip it....those nasty remotes..just an easy way to put in less and make more money, REMOTES what a concept...

A remote control is a perfect example of an unnecessary tool.

It rewards sloth and is a perfect fit with the ADD way too many audiophiles pretend to listen to music.

Funny to see people opine and bloviate about LP's only "lasting" twenty minutes per side when they probably never even sit still and listen for that long.

I can sit for longer than 22 minutes at a clip......my medication works fine.

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I'm not sure that I'm glad that you told me the Porsche part, now I'm wondering if I can afford his prices.

Does it help that it is used and he traded it for some audio equipment?

Yes, I like barter.

Dave

Amuse friends. Devastate enemies. Stroke Ego. Etc.

Just like one EX-friend..whom I now call 'joe' in order to forget his real name. He got into the inside of our little local group of like minded audio nuts.

Then proceeded to empty all our resource points for things like...tubes and old gear.....and sell them all on Ebay and Audiogon. Sh*tb** Mo****F****r that he was..

Yes! But I have edited my post. As I am wont to do. Call me anal. Like most 'philes.

Oh yes. A less expensive way. hhm.. Ah! Snort coke and rant. Less expensive. For a while. You know. A 'legend in your own mind', kinda thing.