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iosiP
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Pop quiz
geoffkait wrote:

Pop quiz - Would you accept a placebo if it improved the sound

Now you're walking on thin ice! Some psychologists posit the placebo effect is just a creation of our mind while other state that the effects are real, insomuch as the subject can really feel them. Now it depends on which camp you're in, and since psychology is far from being my strong point I won't try to take the quiz.
However I will state that while offering free tweaks based on the placebo effect is just fine, while charging good money for them is a scam!
Now you may ask me why, as part of the placebo effect is "the more it costs, the better it works"? Well, just because (1) this diverts funds from buying tweaks that really work, and (2) because the gullible buyer might have his beliefs overturned anytime, and just be left with less money and a smart looking "thingy" of no use. Well, it might not be a fraud - legally speaking - but I find it to be highly immoral!

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The Rules of engagement
iosiP wrote:

And actually this was the purpose of my OP.

Now let me clarify my thought process. In order to be effective, a tweak must meet two conditions:
1. Just work, as in doing what it's supposed to do... well, just be functional, if you prefer.
2. Influence our perception of the music, either by modifying the soundwaves or our perception of them.

Obviously there is no point in asking the first question for simple tweaks: there is nothing susceptible to work or not work in writing a string on your mirror and using a flashlight on it, so only the second condition must be met (how doing this can modify our perception of music). However, some science-based tweaks must pass both tests: I'll take on your example of the Stein Music Harmonizer - first of all, it must be proven that it accelerates the air molecules, and then to prove such an acceleration bring any benefit to the listening experience. I will give you a list of the tweaks you mentioned and how I think these pass (or not) the "composite test".

Cheers,
Costin

P.S. I would appreciate if you would just answer to questions, i.e. without "smart quotes" and irrelevant analogies. Just think this will avoid any frustration on both sides.

I actually do not think it's relevant or necessary to PROVE that a tweak works as advertised, as to HOW it works. Do you demand to know how your TV works or your amplifier? So for the example of the Harmonizer I do not agree that the fact air molecules are or are not accelerated by the device is the subject of the debate, same for any tweak. Anyway, I certainly am not prepared to test for air molecule acceleration, are you? I move we shall say a tweak "works" if it improves the sound. Period. Even that is difficult enough to Prove since some folks might hear it while others might not. So how do you figure out who's right? Systems not revealing, you can't hear, it's a placebo effect, etc. See what I mean? So, in fact we are not on a witch hunt based on how a tweak appears, or how it is advertised to work or whether it seems to disobey laws of physics.

I also object right off the bat to segregating science vs non science tweaks. The reason I object is that I actually think any tweak that improves the sound does so scientifically. In other words, the effect is real so it must have some real mechanism of operation. Be it biological, physics, neurological, etc. Now, we might not know what the mechanism is or we may have a bias due to the name of the tweak, how preposterous it seems, etc. That's a different story!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Take two placebos and see me in the morning
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Pop quiz - Would you accept a placebo if it improved the sound

Now you're walking on thin ice! Some psychologists posit the placebo effect is just a creation of our mind while other state that the effects are real, insomuch as the subject can really feel them. Now it depends on which camp you're in, and since psychology is far from being my strong point I won't try to take the quiz.
However I will state that while offering free tweaks based on the placebo effect is just fine, while charging good money for them is a scam!
Now you may ask me why, as part of the placebo effect is "the more it costs, the better it works"? Well, just because (1) this diverts funds from buying tweaks that really work, and (2) because the gullible buyer might have his beliefs overturned anytime, and just be left with less money and a smart looking "thingy" of no use. Well, it might not be a fraud - legally speaking - but I find it to be highly immoral!

I'm not sure I like the tone of your voice. You know there's such a thing as being overly suspicious. You actually avoided answering the question it's only fair to point out.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Back to listening

So we are back to listening, who would have thunk!

Personal listening as one wishes. Personal listening with variable tuning. Personal listening with tweaks. Personal listening with acoustic products. Personal listening with tone controls ...

Whole lotta personal listening going on. Good!

Listening to scientists - not good
Listening to the marketing of oversold products - not good
Listening to wild ass theories - not good
Listening to A/B comparisons - not good

One of the remaining questions is what allows the most flexible personal listening environment to enjoy music, all music.

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I knew it!

Toledo wrote,

"One of the remaining questions is what allows the most flexible personal listening environment to enjoy music, all music."

I knew you'd figure a way to get this thread back on track.

:-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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right on brother

Back to listening for sure! Don't know what that hobby was, but it wasn't one I belong to. Was doing some cool guitar stuff today but think tonights going to be a "YES" night.

michael green
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Geoff,

Geoff,

who ... lil ole me?

Lets be serious, though, this tweaks debate can never end as most everyone is aware. In many ways, it has moved to a believer/non believer realm.

Are there some caveat emptor issues presented here, yes.
All I can say, at this point, is "People, do your research and acquire what works for you."

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Geoff, a placebo does not improve the sound

By definition, it only improves how someone perceives the sound.
PLACEBO: 2. Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or reassure another.
So how can I answer your question?

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We turn around in circles
geoffkait wrote:

The reason I object is that I actually think any tweak that improves the sound does so scientifically. In other words, the effect is real so it must have some real mechanism of operation.

See what I mean? You start by stating that it works because you hear it work, and you conclude that since it works it's only logical to hear it work. And what if it does not work but it just a placebo effect that makes you think it works, and which reinforces your opinion that it really works?

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don't worry.......be happy...
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Pop quiz - Would you accept a placebo if it improved the sound

Now you're walking on thin ice! Some psychologists posit the placebo effect is just a creation of our mind while other state that the effects are real, insomuch as the subject can really feel them. Now it depends on which camp you're in, and since psychology is far from being my strong point I won't try to take the quiz.
However I will state that while offering free tweaks based on the placebo effect is just fine, while charging good money for them is a scam!
Now you may ask me why, as part of the placebo effect is "the more it costs, the better it works"? Well, just because (1) this diverts funds from buying tweaks that really work, and (2) because the gullible buyer might have his beliefs overturned anytime, and just be left with less money and a smart looking "thingy" of no use. Well, it might not be a fraud - legally speaking - but I find it to be highly immoral!

Hi, Costin.

With all due respect to your opinion, why do you offer so much concerned over someone who finds value in something which you do not?

If someone buys a tweak, tries it & for whatever reason, whether it be due to placebo effect, expectation bias, unknown cause or scientifically proven substance, & they find value in it, so what?

If that same person buys a tweak (product) & finds no value, (or worse, it does harm), for all or any of the above reasons, the first thing they do is complain & warn everyone they can about their experience.

Regarding the ‘morality’ issue…..
....there are varying views of what is and is not moral.
I think we can all agree that vending false effect is not moral.
But for those who may realize benefit, for whatever reason, there is no conflict.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

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Hi Bill, maybe you're right after all

I presume my opinion on what is ethical or not is slightly on the conservative side, so I'll better mind my own business.
Nice to have known you, folks!

Costin

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Wow

I didn't find his arguments to be all that convincing but if you could bottle his angst you could make a fortune.

Geoff Kait
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maybe you're right after all.....

My intent was not offer a view or right or wrong...

Only one from a different perspective, and not necessarily one I personally proffer or proselytize.

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back to music

mg walks in the room and starts looking around to find no music. In time he could feel the tension building and when he got further into the some what clouded space he could see the walls were too high and the doors and windows were closed tightly, so mg made his way back to the door he came in and slipped out of the darkness, back into the music room. Within seconds he could see, feel and hear what was missing at the phile.

you can always tell when the music is turn back on :)

michael green
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Audio debates
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

who ... lil ole me?

Lets be serious, though, this tweaks debate can never end as most everyone is aware. In many ways, it has moved to a believer/non believer realm.

Are there some caveat emptor issues presented here, yes.
All I can say, at this point, is "People, do your research and acquire what works for you."

It is my considered opinion that there actually isn't very much in the audio hobby that ISN'T debatable. And the believer vs non believer mentality certainly applies to at least a few subjects, even to variable tuning unless I miss my guess. In fact, now that I think about it, the unconventional tweak fracas appears more like a Superstition vs Science debate than a religious debate, as you characterized it. Tweaks, unconventional tweaks, take a lot of heat, that's true and I can certainly understand why a lot of folks react to them - at least on a surface level - so emotionally, a gut reaction, but without real knowledge, kind of like a Boy Scout tenderfoot who just got his first peek at a Playboy centerfold - at the same time don't you find that audiophiles get all riled up about cables, digital vs analog, tubes vs solid state, too? Have you visited a tubes forum recently? Lol. .geez, you would practically have to be living in a cave not to notice how contentious audiophiles are about a host of subjects. It just seems like an odd way to deal with a very debatable topic, to pretend it doesn't exist or that the subject is just too controversial for everyone to handle and sweep it under the carpet.

Are we not men? We are devo. Devo

A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke

What we have here is ...failure ...to communicate. Cool Hand Luke

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff,

Geoff,

The only way to even closely resolving a debate like this would be to acquire all these products, put them to use, review them and then post ones findings.

Where would that lead. Debating the review findings, ad infinitum.

I would say this would eventually boil down to believers and non believers.

This does happen in others areas, that is why listening is so important. Long term listening to all types of music and not short term comparisons or yes I did hear a change which later is found to be not as great as initially thought.

But, in the end, it is you and your system making the call.

Each industry has this issue. Take photography, my other money pit of a hobby. You have your equipment debaters and you have your photographers. Check out some photography forums and the endless debates. Not too many photographs but lots of jabbering.

Don't you find it ironic, that we are debating the debate. Makes you go hmmmm.

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Michael,

Michael,

You're right. Where is the light switch. It's all about the music, or so we thought.

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Tweaks, love em or hate em
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

The only way to even closely resolving a debate like this would be to acquire all these products, put them to use, review them and then post ones findings.

Where would that lead. Debating the review findings, ad infinitum.

I would say this would eventually boil down to believers and non believers.

This does happen in others areas, that is why listening is so important. Long term listening to all types of music and not short term comparisons or yes I did hear a change which later is found to be not as great as initially thought.

But, in the end, it is you and your system making the call.

Each industry has this issue. Take photography, my other money pit of a hobby. You have your equipment debaters and you have your photographers. Check out some photography forums and the endless debates. Not too many photographs but lots of jabbering.

Don't you find it ironic, that we are debating the debate. Makes you go hmmmm.

What's ironic is that even listening tests are inconclusive for the most part. That's the beauty of the hobby. Not only can you NOT have a debate about the operating mechanism of a tweak or device or about the technology involved, but you can't even have a debate about the sound of the tweak or device because everyone's results are all over the place, for everything, some hear them, some don't hear them, for some it hurts the sound. Someone says the soundstage got bigger, someone says the soundstage got narrower, someone says the bass went away, another says the bass isn't as boomy, one says the treble is less harsh, another says the treble got rolled off. That's what makes the hobby so interesting, no? But even more ironic perhaps is the idea how many audiophiles are suspicious of tweaks with weird names or of any kind of tweak, for that matter.

Next topic: the 4 reasons audiophiles sometimes can't hear certain tweaks.

Cheers,
Geoff Kait,
Machinadynamica.com

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Lets vote on it

Lets vote on the next topic

"The 4 reasons audiophiles sometimes can't hear certain tweaks."

or

"My system, my music, my rules"

You can vote by texting "schoolsoutforsummer" to ...

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Stovepiping definition of
toledo wrote:

Lets vote on the next topic

"The 4 reasons audiophiles sometimes can't hear certain tweaks."

or

"My system, my music, my rules"

You can vote by texting "schoolsoutforsummer" to ...

"My system, my music, my rules."

Ah, the very definition of Stovepiping. What we have here is...failure...to communicate.

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machinadynamica.com

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Yawn, I am tuckered after

Yawn, I am tuckered after reading all the 'communicating' on this thread.

I think I'll grab a quick nap, while the votes are tallied.

You're on your own there, Boss.

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Geoff, give me a call.......

Here is a 'deal'!
A tweak based on 'science of materials' & real physics.
Makes a $79 phone call, whether placebo based or not, seem downright rational.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/digital-crystal-cable-the-absolute-drea...

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I assume you mean collect
wkhanna wrote:

Here is a 'deal'!
A tweak based on 'science of materials' & real physics.
Makes a $79 phone call, whether placebo based or not, seem downright rational.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/digital-crystal-cable-the-absolute-drea...

Not sure I understand your concern. The ad does say Mint Condition. :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Conceits

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listening is what we do

"What's ironic is that even listening tests are inconclusive for the most part."

Geoff, maybe in your world, but

If listening is inconclusive than what are we doing? Listening and the momment of listening, is the only conclusive part to this hobby.

I have never worked on a system not to listen to it, or did a concert or recording to look on a screen or to paint pictures of theory about it. I'm here to listen to it. All this other stuff is man made jibber jabber feeding the male ego, or female (sorry ladies), or for the ones who haven't become fully competent in the skill and art of listening yet. The people who I see talking tech talk are the same ones I find out side the rooms while the rest of us are standing in a line waiting for our turn to get in or are already in. You can't say a concert is good or bad untill your sitting in the room listening, and you can't say the same concert played in a different city was anything more than the same song list, cause the concert itself was absolutely different.

This is a doing hobby and every chance we get to do the more we become the expert. The master of our system and music collection. I of course disagree with the types of statements where this one came from because I am doing, and am a practicing listener who believes in sharpening the tools of listening and refining the art. This is the difference between a guy walking in with a bunch of tweaks showing people a difference and someone walking and delivering a new outlook on a recording or even the whole hobby.

michael green
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Irony?

Listening = inconclusive? Unless one is neurologically non-musical or extremely deaf, what else is there?

Mind you, even the deaf listen, enjoy and produce music...

http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie_shows_how_to_listen#t-36961

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the difference

Hi Chris

What you have just done by posting this is described the difference between my view of the industry and how I designed vs the "fixed" audiophile/engineer world. Thanks! There is so much to the signal that the end user is not getting because they are only viewing the sound from one particular piece or part, one touch and locking it in, when music is much more than this.

Our rooms should be concert halls set free to play the music and be variable to tune to a recording. And our systems should be also able to vibrate and play the signal all the way open to all the way closed and variably anywhere along the way. BTW I'm one of the acousticians who do designs for the deaf. No I'm not talking the audiophile deaf, LOL. A great video and one that we as people in this hobby should take the time to explore.

I wish this industry could see they are hanging on to the stick too tightly and because of this not hearing, and feeling the action of the recording!

as I said great video

michael green
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Hearing it all!

Hi Michael,
Then a person with "auditory challenges", such as Evelyn Glennie, should be able to "hear" the whole dynamic range of a piece of music in one of your rooms/halls! Cool!
Have you thought of working with her?

It makes sense then that anyone who makes instruments, plays an instrument, or produces music in any way, shape, or form will recognize instantly what you do...

Back to iosiP's "Original Post", I see as two fairly simple groupings of items or processes-
1) Those one might call "tweaks" that make a difference that one can hear, but then one has to decide if it's worth the time or effort to invest in,
2) Those one might call "snake oil" that one can't hear a difference or has already decided it was not worth the time or effort in invest in.

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The personal touch
michael green wrote:

"What's ironic is that even listening tests are inconclusive for the most part."

Geoff, maybe in your world, but

If listening is inconclusive than what are we doing? Listening and the momment of listening, is the only conclusive part to this hobby.

I have never worked on a system not to listen to it, or did a concert or recording to look on a screen or to paint pictures of theory about it. I'm here to listen to it. All this other stuff is man made jibber jabber feeding the male ego, or female (sorry ladies), or for the ones who haven't become fully competent in the skill and art of listening yet. The people who I see talking tech talk are the same ones I find out side the rooms while the rest of us are standing in a line waiting for our turn to get in or are already in. You can't say a concert is good or bad untill your sitting in the room listening, and you can't say the same concert played in a different city was anything more than the same song list, cause the concert itself was absolutely different.

This is a doing hobby and every chance we get to do the more we become the expert. The master of our system and music collection. I of course disagree with the types of statements where this one came from because I am doing, and am a practicing listener who believes in sharpening the tools of listening and refining the art. This is the difference between a guy walking in with a bunch of tweaks showing people a difference and someone walking and delivering a new outlook on a recording or even the whole hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Michael, strange you would take my comments to heart quite so much as so often. You'll pardon me for saying so but I'm becoming more and more convinced of your general lack or broad experience and technical expertise in this hobby as well as lack of professionalism. If there is going to be a meeting down by the river you are requested not to come down to the river on your tall horse. Keep the zingers coming, but try to make them more original as that would be more entertaining for me.

"Most everyone at the Geek Meet in the Desert cannot get above the noise floor." - Stereophile reviewer Shannon Dickson's comment on the sound of high end systems at CES

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff,

Geoff,

"You'll pardon me for saying so but I'm becoming more and more convinced of your general lack or broad experience and technical expertise in this hobby as well as lack of professionalism."

The elitist air of academia rears its ugly head while riding in on it's tall horse.

I am sticking my nose in here since you have used this tactic with me and I suspect with others.

Is this the only fall back position you have?

What exactly is your position?

Listening is out or is it in? Placebos are in but maybe out?
Everything is debatable but inconclusive and yet "there is a failure to communicate."
I'm getting dizzy.

Next topic: intellect versus wisdom

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Intellect versus wisdom?

Nope, "Geoff vs. dialogue" would be more appropriate!

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He's baaack!
iosiP wrote:

Nope, "Geoff vs. dialogue" would be more appropriate!

Well, look who's back. The name caller who couldn't stand the heat.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

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Geoff, if one person says you're drunk...

...don't pay attention. If two persons say you're drunk, take care. And if three or more persons say you're drunk, you better go home and have a rest.

Costin

P.S. Yep, there was no use to hang around here to try and discuss serious things, but it is fun to get in once in a wile just to poke fun at over-the-phone tuners and amoeba-energy photo-freezers advocates. Mock you soon...

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lots to tune

"Hi Michael,
Then a person with "auditory challenges", such as Evelyn Glennie, should be able to "hear" the whole dynamic range of a piece of music in one of your rooms/halls! Cool!
Have you thought of working with her?

It makes sense then that anyone who makes instruments, plays an instrument, or produces music in any way, shape, or form will recognize instantly what you do..."

Hi Chris

It's true, for those who have more of the open (free) minds in music, the tune comes very natural. I try to take advantage of as many of these fun opportunities as I can. I usually find that I end up in places or with people who have projects they want me to explore with them with a certain like mindedness. I don't really go looking for them, it's more of a meant to be thing. I've done a few healing centers, which I thought was interesting, private studios that were out of this world, and even things like putting recording studios in Yale for exploration. I like doing the products but the real fun comes in when I do the Tunable Rooms from the ground up. Second place would be the tunable speakers which are a kick, along with their PZC counterparts. Voicing in these systems are pretty amazing cause as she is talkig about the music goes from hearing with the ears to the whole body.

Again thanks for putting this video up. I think on one hand it may make "fixed thinkers" mad as you can see, but on the other it opens up the minds of those who are more sensitive to the art form of how this all works.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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The only audiophile in Romania
iosiP wrote:

...don't pay attention. If two persons say you're drunk, take care. And if three or more persons say you're drunk, you better go home and have a rest.

Costin

P.S. Yep, there was no use to hang around here to try and discuss serious things, but it is fun to get in once in a wile just to poke fun at over-the-phone tuners and amoeba-energy photo-freezers advocates. Mock you soon...

As least you're trying to come up with something somewhat entertaining, unlike some other people I won't mention. Give my condolences to your liver.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Bored much
Quote:

As least you're trying to come up with something somewhat entertaining, unlike some other people I won't mention. Give my condolences to your liver.

So ... we are here to entertain you, Geoff? Is that the deal?

Ah ... the life of the retired ... lets go up on the audio boards for some fun.

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Tuning In...

Hi Michael,
Have you been asked to tune someone's existing stereo components and room, rather than starting from scratch? How successful are you?

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Other's Systems

Hi Chris

"Hi Michael,
Have you been asked to tune someone's existing stereo components and room, rather than starting from scratch? How successful are you?"

Almost every listener I tune starts with their own system. I was told by our marketing dept back in the late 90's that there were over 80,000 people who have bought the products. I have no idea how many there really are, but I know I've done up in the thousands myself, and out of those there's a pattern usually. Most of them have some of the tools and do their tuning to the place that takes them to another level of listening for them. A much better stage and tonal balance. This would be the level that I take reviewers to and do at the shows.

The next level are the guys who take this to a place that is more than stock components. Meaning they may take off a cover, remove feet, do some hard wiring and have my acoustical goodies along with racks and enough of the toys to make this a method.

Then there are those who decide to go past high end audio altogether and make their rooms and systems into something that is really more about the tools than the components. Those listeners go super simple and if you looked at their setups the components are really not even components any more but more a signal pathway, with more of a mini concert hall look and feel to their rooms. Nothing extra is in these rooms and many of them don't even have the equipment in there, or the equipment is low profile and out of the acoustical staging space.

So I don't know how accurate this would be but I'm guessing 85% with my products and their stock stuff, 12% with a mix of still hiend and the tuning tools, and 3% extreme tunable systems.

Lately though since I'm not pushing like I did at one time, most of the people who come to me end up being a mix of theirs and the tuning tools, and up to the extreme. A lot of guys start with theirs then get to a place where they hear that the simple stuff goes further so they will sell off the old and go all the way tuning and simple.

Doesn't matter to me where someone goes, except that I know what happens when they go all "tune". That is a level that is something you can only do to understand and appreciate. The weird part is the extreme level (shy of my designer rooms) is the least expensive way to go, because their not paying the big bucks on electronics and speakers. for example: Even if someone went full blown tuning using their own room with us tuning and they went with our speakers and the whole nine with my recommended components and all the trimming they may end up spending 5K to 15K on the whole system. That's electronics, cable, furniture, acoustics, speakers, accessories and your own tuning thread where I and others guide a person through. All the client has to do is point to the room they want to convert.

I think in this next chapter of the industry your going to see this type of approach. Lets call it the linn approach. Instead of all this mixing and messing up, and the never ending story, I think High End is going to be about methods, mine of course being a tunable system. One where the client picks the room and the tune comes in and installs a system that the client can make sound any way they want. Mid fi will be the Bose and Sonos types. Expensive will be the B&O types and High End Audio as it is now I'm not even sure will be called High End Audio. There will be some big changes in the next 5 years that are happening now that will reshape the hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Relax, Geoff

There are many more audiophiles in Romania than you'll ever guess. Some of them have dedicated rooms and systems in the 6-digit price bracket. Strange enough, none of them ever gave you a call to have their system tuned by amoeba teleportation, while I know quite a few who use some of Michael's tweaks (too bad the local distributor is an incapable SOB).

Costin

P.S. As for my liver, it's still way better than your logic.

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Tune In Next Time...

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the reply! Up to now, I've been happy with the sound of my system, but now I realize there could be way more! I'm extremely limited in terms of placement of my equipment and cannot make any modifications to the room. I have what I consider an entry-level Linn system- LP 12, Genki cd player, McIntosh tuner, Wakonda pre-amp, three LK100's actively driving Keilidh speakers with mostly Linn cables and interconnects. The only "tweaks" I've added are hard rubber pucks of some unknown "proprietary" material and composition underneath most of the electronics, as well as a puck that has a hole drilled in the middle to use as a record clamp, and WireWorld Aurora power cords for all the Linn electronics. I believe I have the "Linn sound" ie. toe-tapping, but when I compare the sound to other systems, I know the dynamics are a bit constrained. Linn is not known for soundstaging either. So what I'm thinking for myself is somehow to apply some of your tuning methods and/or products to open the sound up more.

In the general approach to tuning, as I understand your methods I really appreciate the simplicity of the materials that you use and how you work with them. As I've mentioned, your methods makes sense in terms of all aspects of music production. I can see that, if it's not being done already, someone else will use the one-button approach- set up the equipment in a room, push a button and the tuning/EQing is done for you. I like the personal investment and involvement of your approach.

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A tuned system

Hi Chris

That's interesting that you mentioned Linn because for the "Linn" listener, they have their act together. I like the earlier linn years better, but have done a few of their setups. The key to making Linn magical is having the right type of walls in the room I have found. The wrong walls and the image goes right out the window, but the right walls and you can do some pretty cool stuff with their goodies. As you said, linn is more of a tonal animal than a stage one but there are tricks to that tale.

I've decided after reading here a bit that I'm going to start pages on TuneLand that walk through the different systems and how they work and what to do to start to tune them. A friend of mine in the biz said I should take some time to show things that folks are doing that might be hurting the sound some but don't know why, or don't want to ask because of all the distractions that can happen here. So with this in mind I've got started, and depending on how it goes will try to get around to as many setups as I can.

I think he and some of the other manufacturers that have approached me with this before, and are now are right. People should not have to be in this hobby without a guide and since I have done more rooms from a system view, it's kinda on me to help, if I can. I'm starting with a basic thread but then will move on to more specific. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t245-setup-basics-for-stereophile#4390 . The simple approach by far is my favorite but I don't want people to feel they are excluded, cause even with some simple things a system can come to life.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Getting Tuned

Thanks, Michael! I'll have a look.

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Hi Michael, just a piece of advice

I've read your tuning basics on tuneland, and I do fully agree that the tuning process should start with the electrical cabling and distribution box. However, I don't think this is the better marketing approach: just think you are talking to people that are new to your concept, and I hardly believe any of them (me included) would ever start with gutting their walls just to achieve a promised - but not yet proved - audio improvement.
BTW, you almost lost me when you asked that the first thing I ought to do is dismantle my gear.

So just start by recommending reversible and rather effortless tweaks, to give people a taste of your medicine, and then go further with the gutting/disassembling/ax wielding thing.
And BTW, find another local distributor, the one you have now just, well, sucks!

Regards,
Costin

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3 dB behind the power curve

Act-u-ally, I'm a huge fan of treating and modding the circuit breaker box as well as wall outlets of audio gear, treating wall outlets of non audio gear and even wall outlet covers for non audio gear,even unused wall outlets. I am also, in case you hadn't picked up on it already, a real big fan of cryogenics, including but not limited to, wall outlets, all cabling, and everything else that will fit into the cryo cooler. Getting back to the circuit breaker box, some but not all of the things I do to mine here include tighten the incoming circuit wire, Cream Electret on the breakers, WA Quantum Chip on the incoming circuit wire and one on the Breaker, Mpingo disc resting on the breakers, either placing 3M AB5100S (one full sheet) on the inside of the panel door or removing the (magnetic) door entirely if you can replace it properly with something that meets CODE. I also HIGHLY recommend cleaning and using contact enhancer on The FEMALE inlets of ALL wall outlets in the HOUSE - refrigerator, etc., taking care with proper gloves etc., turning OFF the power a priori, etc. when cleaning and treating outlets with a pipe cleaner, e.g.

If there were two audiophiles in Romania that would be two more than I would have guessed. No need to launch a nuclear strike on me, I'm only joking.

"A rich man has about as much chance of entering audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle." - old audiophile,expression

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remarks

Thanks Costin

I learn quite a bit from those who give helpful suggestions so thanks for yours. Some people have wanted me to go with a standard website but I have found that having a forum style to be more proactive. I've had the standard type before and it seemed always to come up short in the giving department. I have also started a couple of places on the forum that are specifically about the stereophile forum, including a pictorial showing people what is going on with some of the things they do and might want to explore. But the biggest thing I think is when someone gets to the place where they have their own thread. That's when you get to know someones unique path.

As far as distributors, we are a very personal and if someone needs us to help them with their products we are happy to work with them directly, or through their desired distributor.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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No problemos, Geoff
geoffkait wrote:

If there were two audiophiles in Romania that would be two more than I would have guessed. No need to launch a nuclear strike on me, I'm only joking.

I won't launch anything as I don't use nukes to get rid of pesky flies. It's just that your amoeba-inherited coordinate determination failed: just write "x-666-x" on your forehead and you're going to get a fix on the world you're living in. Or better call an erotic hotline, they're going to "tune" you over the phone in no time, proving that placebo works as intended.

"A snakeoil vendor erection can easily pass through the eye of a needle." - old Romanian expression.

Costin

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Let me count the ways
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

If there were two audiophiles in Romania that would be two more than I would have guessed. No need to launch a nuclear strike on me, I'm only joking.

I won't launch anything as I don't use nukes to get rid of pesky flies. It's just that your amoeba-inherited coordinate determination failed: just write "x-666-x" on your forehead and you're going to get a fix on the world you're living in. Or better call an erotic hotline, they're going to "tune" you over the phone in no time, proving that placebo works as intended.

"A snakeoil vendor erection can easily pass through the eye of a needle." - old Romanian expression.

Costin

Well, I think we're finding out how many times a Romanian can say the same thing over and over. The same closed minded, tweakaphobic thing, I might add. And can we try to cut down on the pee pee imagery? Especially my pee pee.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff: relax, don't do it!

But rather explain how your amoeba brain can determine x by just knowing y and z: by definition, any system of coordinates has independent and non-correlated "axis" (I'll spare you the Information Theory explanation).
So, you write 'x 26 x' on your mirror and your brain suddenly feels comfortable, 'cause it reminds you how you were crawling into your amoeba hole? And this brings you a better experience while listening to Miles Davis?
Just take your nucleus-less medication and get some rest, I'm sure you'll get wet dreams of the times you were just an amoeba floating at the bottom of the primordial ocean!

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Shoulda woulda coulda
iosiP wrote:

But rather explain how your amoeba brain can determine x by just knowing y and z: by definition, any system of coordinates has independent and non-correlated "axis" (I'll spare you the Information Theory explanation).
So, you write 'x 26 x' on your mirror and your brain suddenly feels comfortable, 'cause it reminds you how you were crawling into your amoeba hole? And this brings you a better experience while listening to Miles Davis?
Just take your nucleus-less medication and get some rest, I'm sure you'll get wet dreams of the times you were just an amoeba floating at the bottom of the primordial ocean!

While your writing style is becoming more entertaining as I had hoped, I still can't help wishing your "information theory" PhD had contained more theoretical physics and metaphysics. As things stand now, and I'm just judging from your overall closed minded attitude and lack of actual technical knowledge such as what constitutes an electromagnetic wave, I would like to make the suggestion, in terms of your PhD degree, that you ask for your money back.

"Education is what remains after you've forgotten everything you learned in school."

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Another way to avoid answering??

Well don't worry, I already know you have no answers! But then, just avoiding a real dialogue and poking fun to ones citizenship won't prove you right, but just a coward.
Can't stand the heat? Well, stay out of the kitchen and play with your holed-out atoms, I guarantee these will make you feel as comfortable as an amoeba - just freeze them and you're done!
And BTW, do not forget to paint your wife and dog white: seems it helps with the soundstage!

P.S. Not that you'll ever notice it while only listening to headphones!

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Ah, the knives come out!
iosiP wrote:

Well don't worry, I already know you have no answers! But then, just avoiding a real dialogue and poking fun to ones citizenship won't prove you right, but just a coward.
Can't stand the heat? Well, stay out of the kitchen and play with your holed-out atoms, I guarantee these will make you feel as comfortable as an amoeba - just freeze them and you're done!
And BTW, do not forget to paint your wife and dog white: seems it helps with the soundstage!

P.S. Not that you'll ever notice it while only listening to headphones!

If you can't behave like a normal person please leave (again). Do you really think you are the only name calling tweak hating hot head to even roam the internet? I run across punks like you almost everyday. Besides you're starting to use my lines and that's where you really cross the line. Do me a big favor and try to come with something original for a change. Your giving PhDs everywhere a bad name. That is if I believe you have a PhD which I actually don't.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Conceits

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