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Jan Vigne
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What else?

Can anyone point to anything positive one particular forum member has ever posted?

Jeff Wong
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Re: What else?

Does a post of yours count?

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

I wasn't referring to myself but if you think it benefical to read once again the brilliance of what I post ...

CECE
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Re: What else?

I like Legacy, VanAlstine, Rane...bunch of other stuff. AND the fact that J.A. does science, not fiction writing, like so many reviewrs do. The reviewers dream up verbage about these non existant things, while J.A. measures, listens and makes sense. He doesn't make up ramblings about a $45K Cd only player, like it changes the entire product of CD. It don't it's just a grossly overpriced poorly design MISWIRED toy. How come www.emmlabs.com can make what is supposed to be teh BEST player lists for only $10K and in one box CD-SA and it plays SACD, while a Zunder plays only Cd, is miswired, distorts and yet a reviewer thinks fiction writing changes that fact. JA is the only sensible one there. Measuremtns matter, but see ya got me going again. I like Tascam too, I like SoundKing WIRE, cus' it is made as long as I need to reach each end of the things i need to connect. Just like $15,000 wires, that aren't made long enough. Why does high end have to be also high nonsene. Just because it can? The guy who wrote about how his $150 player sounded like his $1500 one, no kidding!!! And you think a $45K one sounds that much "better" than $2,000 one or say a VanAlstine or BenchMark DAC? Betcha it doooooon't. Lexicon says they make teh best, then dCs says theirs is, then EMMLABS does, and each time it's reviewed by fiction writers, they excliam, this is it, changes everything, then teh measuremetns show, same as the last ones or worse, in teh case of Zunderhead. What does a $100K TT actually cost to make? $2K? If that, how many china parts are in this thing, or in teh ZunderHead? How many chips just like OPPO, no OPPO is actually 21st century, it plays SACD, Zunderhead uses OBSOLETE Philips chip, and only plays CD!!!...Benchmark was in SP, i own one of them too, I like it, so there.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

I have no idea what that has do to with the original post but considering the source that's not unusual. And I guess that really does have something to do with the original post. Can anyone think of anything dup has posted in the last six months that has been positive or reinforced any opinion held by anyone on this forum? There must be something.

mjalazard
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Re: What else?

I think that the posts asking about purchasing advice offers many positive replies. It seems that when we start comparison testimonials or certainly discussing tweaks, that the cream often sinks to the bottom.

bifcake
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Re: What else?


Quote:
I have no idea what that has do to with the original post but considering the source that's not unusual. And I guess that really does have something to do with the original post. Can anyone think of anything dup has posted in the last six months that has been positive or reinforced any opinion held by anyone on this forum? There must be something.

He posted a number of positive things concerning Legacy speakers, some amps and JA's ability to measure equipment. If you can get past a lot of noise, I find DUP's posts to be actually quite informative and well thought out. He lacks not in substance, but in presentation.

CECE
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Re: What else?

ohfourohnine
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Re: What else?


Quote:
... Can anyone think of anything dup has posted in the last six months that has been positive or reinforced any opinion held by anyone on this forum? There must be something.

Suppose, Jan, that your search leads to one of the possible results - nothing, something, or nothing much - then what? We're all free to be boring, pugnacious, rude, and incapable of displaying any mastery of spelling or punctuation. Many of us even display traits of that sort from time to time.

Should there be trials, even punishments for that sort of transgression?

Why not just resort to the "ignore" setting and leave the poor devil alone? Members of this forum obviously vary in their tastes as evidenced by the fact that some folks here even seem to enjoy crossing verbal swords with him.

Note: This post was edited because, in the original version, I used the word two when the word to was intended. Maybe I deserve criticism for being too picky about spelling errors.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

My quest to find something positive within dup's ramblings is my own personal attempt to find something of value within his many posts so I can say I understand why others find him defensible.

ohfourohnine
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Re: What else?

Best of Luck with your quest. Some things are, for each of us, beyond our abilities to understand.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What else?

Yeah, and here is another one. STFU, Ms. Vigne.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

Gee, LS, what part of "something positive" can you not understand? BIOYA, LS.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What else?

Boy, one post and you down to my level. You're not as sophisticated as you think you are. Hum. You opened up this can worms. Not me.


Quote:
"He's a snake in the grass, I tell ya guys.
He may look dumb but that's just a disguise,
He's a mastermind in the ways of espionage"

"Would you believe this man has gone as far
As tearing Wallace stickers off the bumpers of cars.
And he voted for George McGovern for President."

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

Then why'd you stick your hand in and grab a slimey bunch if you had nothing to contribute? What's your problem with me? I asked a question, anyone can answer but there isn't any need to drop to the gutter on your first post in the thread. What you posted was rude and uncalled for and about as juvenile as I can imagine. So, what was your reason?

jazzfan
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Re: What else?


Quote:
Can anyone point to anything positive one particular forum member has ever posted?

Jan,

Although this section, "General Rants'n'Raves", tends to get mostly "rants" that does not mean that the other sections of the forum follow the same trend. There are plenty of very positive posts in the other sections of the forum. I have personally posted positive comments about recordings and equipment. I believe that you need to explore some of these other sections.

Ralph aka Jazzfan

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

I'm looking for something positive to be pointed out to me. I am not claiming nothing has been positive about the forum but there is so much more negativity on this forum that mostly stems from one individual and a few supporters of his prose. If that prose is defensible, show it to me. What do you find positive about this forum? It's getting difficult for me to find. Most of the time spent here is either engaged in avoiding the negative comments of a few or trying not to present an opportunity for such behaviour. Apparently someone feels I've provided an opportunity for rude behaviour and they have jumped in with both feet. I think there are more than enough intelligent people on this forum to have positive comments abound but they are mired in the mass of muck within the whole.

bifcake
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Re: What else?


Quote:
I'm looking for something positive to be pointed out to me.

Ok, this is what I'd like you to do:

Sit in front of a mirror, look yourself right in the eye and say:

"I am good enough, I am smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."

These daily affirmations will help you see the positive things not just in these forums, but in life.

smejias
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Re: What else?

I think it's such a shame that we spend so much time discussing one particular member, DUP. We've done it over and over again, and it hasn't helped much. In fact, it's made things worse. I've even considered creating specific rules for the discussion of DUP, just as we have implemented specific rules for the discussion of DBT. I find this to be absurd.

This forum is a wonderful place - I'm very proud of it, I think we all can be proud of it - and, indeed, it can be so much better.

I can't defend DUP. I've made clear that his presence here often upsets me. However: I'm not going to ban him. Not entirely, at least. (We're looking into ways to limit his total number of posts; I've asked him to try to be more thoughtful of the content and frequency of his contributions.) There are members here who enjoy DUP's posts, there are members who enjoy the energy and enthusiasm that he offers. So, he will stay.

Just as no one person is responsible for making our forum great, I feel that no one person is responsible for making our forum lousy.

I've been wondering how things would evolve if we were all in a room together, in person. We've built and decorated this room ourselves, together. No alcohol at this particular event, so there will be less chance of getting into a fist fight. How would we behave?

If there's one particular member working to ruin this entire experience for you, please please please ignore him. My theory is that he'll find himself standing alone in a dark corner with no one to talk to.

smejias
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Re: What else?


Quote:
My theory is that he'll find himself standing alone in a dark corner with no one to talk to.

And that he'll then show himself to be the interesting and likeable person that he really can be, without having to conform to "the man," and without sacrificing his personal beliefs and without loss of passion or enthusiasm.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

Quite honestly, Stephen, I am disappointed. I am disappointed that this forum has devolved into a place where one member can tell another to "shut the fuck up". I am disappointed that this forum sees no shame in "little black kid" jokes being posted under its masthead. I am extremely disappointed when debate is limited to such a minimal amount of positive posting that few can direct me toward the lighter side of these threads.

That a single member can have this degree of influence suggests you are quite possibly wrong about the sway of one solitary member. A member who debates his lone view of audio by way of made up facts about his car. A member who holds "I know good club sound" as his reference beyond and above all others. A member who actively seeks out only those opinions which coincide with his block headed view of audio to the exclusion of all further debate or conversation. A member who actively mocks your unwillingness to rein him in. A member who makes you, Stephen, complicit in his offenses. You are supposed to be the adult here. That the adults have taken charge has never meant less than in the world at large for the past six years or at the Stereophile forum for the last six months.

I have been a long time reader and subscriber to Stereophile with a library of back issues dating to the early 1980's and have always found the cost and time involved to be worthwhile. On many ocassions I have seen references in the magazine to this forum suggesting this is where the reader can find further illumination of the subject being discussed. If Stereophile truly feels "little black kid" jokes and members stifling others with inpolite language is what they want readers to find when they arrive at Stereophile's officially sanctioned forums, then that is your choice, Stephen, and I assume, the choice of the editorial staff of the magazine. After all these years together, this is truly a disappointment and a surprise. Would you allow what has been posted on this forum into the magazine proper? If so, why? If not, why is it then allowed on the Stereophile forum? We should all recognize that our freedom to speak does have its limits in a polite society. I will defend anyone's right to speak their mind but I draw the line when the words are hurtful and disrespectful to others. I will try mightily to find in my heart and mind a desire to understand the other person's point of view. However, I will not allow anyone's intergity to be trampled and certainly not my own. That you will, Stephen, tells me all I need to know at this time about Stereophile. While protests have failed and the other side has obviously drawn blood, I shall continue to look forward to the day when Stereophile is once more something higher and better than it has recently become by way of this fast sinking forum.

I have laughed at those who demand in letters that their subscription be cancelled and also at those who stomp off forums. I shall do neither. But I will respectfully retreat from this forum at this time. What exists here is not why I ventured over here in the first place. I can find far too little positive discourse on this forum to bother with and apparently no one can prove me wrong on that count. Please take this as a reasoned retreat rather than as a ranting dismissal. The level of conversation and interchange of ideas here on the forum has, in my opinion, degenerated to the level of AM talk radio and the worst of that format to boot. The Michael Savage's of the Stereophile forums have won. I may return at a later date as I find there are a few thoughtful and intelligent members here. We'll see what develops.

Just to clarify why I feel so strongly about this subject, let me say placing dup on "ignore" is no longer an option I care to exercise. The difference between dup and Mr. Imus is not that Imus gets paid for his irascible remarks but that I can choose to avoid Imus by not frequenting the channels he occupies at the times he appears. On the Stereophile forums dup is currrently everywhere and ignoring him and his 70% content on this forum have become tiresome. The last two days have proven I have no place in what is fastly becoming a white guy's hangout where racism, profanity and mockery have replaced reason and discourse. Yes, absurdity abounds on the Stereophile forums.

Good night and good luck.

tandy
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Re: What else?

I agree with Jan. And it isn't just on this forum that this kind of behaviour is occuring. It is others as well. And other moderators also have trouble banning these sorts, so it isn't just Stephen. Frankly I do not understand why it is so difficult?

When a rude and disgusting member is banned, the members are relieved, and post so.

I can't for the life see how dup is just being enthusiastic as we have provided links to information, provided college text book titles but dup simply ignores the info provided. Then he continues to attack our opinions whose basis is provided by those text books. Is he being honest and genuine when he continually post info that any basic college textbook disagrees and he has been told so?

It certainly appears to me that his only motive is to dominate this, and other forums and serve his own agenda.

In away, I can see you letting him continue to post as any rational individual will see what a farse his "objectivist" view is. I think he hurts his agenda. However, when is enough enough?

We see the same "dup" tatics used on other forums, usually those with the same dup views, even to the point that the same topics are posted on different forums on the same day.

If you don't ban him, maybe at least ask dup to ignore us, same as we ignore him. However, I doubt if dup will respond positively.

Elk
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Re: What else?

Jan,

I hate to see you go and would really like to have you stick around. I understand your points however and they are good ones.

Jeff Wong
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Re: What else?

Ditto. I enjoy Jan's input and contributions and would like to see him/her continue posting here.

I do find myself gravitating towards other forums for music related posting. There seems to be a paucity of rich exchanges, gear or music related, taking place with regularity. I enjoy them when they occur. Is it because the forum is still young and people are shy, or because it's populated with a handful of regulars?

Buddha
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Re: What else?

I'm another person wishing Jan would opt to stay.

I look forward to reading his posts and have developed a fondness for his way of looking at things and expressing himself.

smejias
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Re: What else?

Hi Jan.
I've been considering all you've said, getting my thoughts together to form a response, but, first, I'd like to echo the comments above and say that I really wish you wouldn't leave.

RGibran
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Re: What else?


Quote:
I've been wondering how things would evolve if we were all in a room together, in person. We've built and decorated this room ourselves, together. No alcohol at this particular event, so there will be less chance of getting into a fist fight. How would we behave?

At my parties, folks seem to gravitate to other rooms to talk about the asshole in the other room. I have nothing against folks who have opinions that differ from mine, and I'm against censorship, but I do dislike assholes and I'm old enough to know one when I meet one. I'm not talking about smartasses...but assholes.
I politely let them know they are not welcome and request they leave. They "usually" fire off the last word and LEAVE as requested, and I most certainly never invite them back again.

After seeing the way some have conducted themselves here I've come to the conclusion there is nothing that could get one banned from this forum. I've wondered if perhaps the best thing that could happen to me is to be banned!

I hate to stoop to another

bifcake
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Re: What else?

What you guys tend to lose sight of is the fact that DUP actually makes legitimate points in his rants. Furthermore, the name of this particular section is "Rants 'n Raves". So, the guy rants in the rants forum. If you don't like what he has to say, then don't read his postings. They tend to be very long and tough to read, so that makes it all that much easier to skip them. I'm surprised that you guys would put so much effort and energy into deciphering his posts only to whine about them. I promise you that it's really not that difficult to skip DUP's posts. In fact, it's a lot easier than reading them. Really.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What else?


Quote:
What you guys tend to lose sight of is the fact that DUP actually makes legitimate points in his rants. Furthermore, the name of this particular section is "Rants 'n Raves". So, the guy rants in the rants forum. If you don't like what he has to say, then don't read his postings. They tend to be very long and tough to read, so that makes it all that much easier to skip them. I'm surprised that you guys would put so much effort and energy into deciphering his posts only to whine about them. I promise you that it's really not that difficult to skip DUP's posts. In fact, it's a lot easier than reading them. Really.

I agree 100%. DUPs BS actually has a, "riddle wrapped in a mystery!".

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What else?


Quote:
Then why'd you stick your hand in and grab a slimey bunch if you had nothing to contribute? What's your problem with me? I asked a question, anyone can answer but there isn't any need to drop to the gutter on your first post in the thread. What you posted was rude and uncalled for and about as juvenile as I can imagine. So, what was your reason?

Ah ha! You see, I did contribute. Look, no one wants you to leave. But the world isn't perfect and neither is this forum. As for my problem with you? I think you are a cry baby and I have responded to you as such thus far in this thread. You need to lighten up and knock off the PSY101 ego defense mechanisms. Grow up and stop throwing your little State of the Stereophile Union tantrum. "I don't like this make it stop, wah! wah! wah!". Christ in a sidecar, somebody call the wahmbulance!

Windzilla
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Re: What else?

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=1&vc=1

thats what this forum was about, and is. keep reading, look at page two (yep i chose a positive thread with admonishments thrown my own way)

I don't want you to take off Jan, give it another round for me, the kipper.

anyway, i had some questions about t-amps and kef Coda 9.2's that i thought someone like yourself might help me with.

I refuse to visit your usual haunt audio-review land, it scares me.

smejias
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Re: What else?

Thanks, Windzilla. That was a very good thread.

bifcake
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Re: What else?


Quote:

Quote:
Then why'd you stick your hand in and grab a slimey bunch if you had nothing to contribute? What's your problem with me? I asked a question, anyone can answer but there isn't any need to drop to the gutter on your first post in the thread. What you posted was rude and uncalled for and about as juvenile as I can imagine. So, what was your reason?

Ah ha! You see, I did contribute. Look, no one wants you to leave. But the world isn't perfect and neither is this forum. As for my problem with you? I think you are a cry baby and I have responded to you as such thus far in this thread. You need to lighten up and knock off the PSY101 ego defense mechanisms. Grow up and stop throwing your little State of the Stereophile Union tantrum. "I don't like this make it stop, wah! wah! wah!". Christ in a sidecar, somebody call the wahmbulance!

I don't know about you guys, but I find Lamont Sanford much more disagreeable than DUP.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What else?

I rather be disagreeable than an enabler

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What else?


Quote:
I refuse to visit your usual haunt audio-review land, it scares me.

Well, what we have here is a credibility statement by association. Thanks for throwing in that little bit of background. Doesn't surprise me. Seems Jan has a credibility problem. Jan demands the "company language" of this forum fit the mold of another forum that the curmudgeon has a preference.

jazzfan
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Re: What else?

Boy that was a mouthful. Perhaps if Jan had lightened up on the negative comments and instead posted something with a positive attitude on another thread things would be more like he wants them to be.

There are plenty of audio related subjects that this forum has yet to touch upon. Room interactions, proper system set up, digital room correction devices, etc. Plus many of these subjects could be discussed without reference to cables, DBTs and super expensive components (all hot button issues around here.)

I also spend time over at Head-Fi and find the differences between the two forums to be quite interesting. While Head-Fi is the older and much more established forum with thousands of members and is heavily moderated there still manages to be a handful of members who have their own agenda who chime in at almost every opportunity. For example someone starts a thread requesting information on a given headphone and one of these agenda driven members responds with a post about the superiority of a given headphone amp!! And pretty soon the thread request information on a given headphone turns into an amp war.

However, on the plus side Head-Fi is filled with many different types of members that while the agenda driven posts can be quite annoying there are enough members with positive things to say to overcome these annoyances.

The members on this forum need to simply ignore DUP and others agenda driven posts and proceed with their discussions in spite of these annoying posts. I should know all about that since over in the jazz section I have my own little agenda (The total destruction of all things JATPS related!!).

Elk
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Re: What else?


Quote:
... DUP actually makes legitimate points in his rants.

Occasionally this is true, but it is rare.

Unfortunately many of his posts include name calling, disparaging comments, and completely fictitious information.

For example, someone asks for equipment that would complement the writer's personal musical taste. DUP attacks, calling the person stupid, putting down the individual's choice of music and proclaiming that if it isn't electric guitars and played loud it is worthless. How is this "legitimate"?

I've tried engaging him a number of times in the hope that if he was taken seriously he would respond positively. It has not worked very well. This is sad. He may have benefiticial information and ideas to share. For example, if he really is invovled with sound reinforcement he could share a lot of how this works. John Meyer's SIM system, delayed flying arrays, all sorts of things used in sound reinforcement would fascinate this group.

I like that he has differing opinions. I wish only that he would express them respectfully. He purposely writes to insult and to quash the sharing of ideas. This is antithetical to a public form. Debate is good - yelling insults at the top of your lungs as others are trying to discuss something is bad.

Yes, those with experience on the forum can ignore him. But what about the new members? What about those coming to the Forum to look around? What do they see and experience? Would you want to join? Would you want to post?

There are plenty of places on the Internet where people pool their ignorance and then fight as to which one of them is right. Why allow this forum to become yet another example?

ohfourohnine
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Re: What else?

Your points are well made, Elk, and, taken together with Ralph's post just preceding yours, reminded me of a good example in support of your argument.

Early on, I decided to have some fun with Ralph (when I knew him only as Jazzfan) on the topic of Jazz at the Pawnshop - chide him a little to see how he'd react. It turned out to be fun for me and, I think for some of the others who joined in. It was a fairly spirited exchange, but decidedly civil, and led to other good ones. Beyond that, it revealed some of the preferences we share in terms of artists and musical styles. Whether he or I loves Louis Armstrong more is an open question, but between us we probably have heard every recording of his music in existance. Since then I've bought several recordings based solely on his recommendations - didn't click with all of them, but most of them. Still haven't bought in to the benefits of downloading he's so enthusiastic about, but I'm listening to his arguments.

Like it or not however, no examples of how to do it right (and there are many others from this forum) are likely to rid this forum or society generally from rampant bad manners. They're everywhere these days - government, politics, sports, you name it. Gotta ignore it, and wait until it runs its course and goes away I guess.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What else?

Stephen, please check your PM's.

Buddha
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Re: What else?

Never mind.

Lamont Sanford
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More raves about DUP


Quote:
A sound recording and reproduction device utilizing what were essentially disc records was described by DUP in 1877 but never built. In 1878, DUP independently built the first working phonograph, a tinfoil cylinder machine, intending to use it as a voice-recording medium, typically for office dictation. The phonograph cylinder dominated the recorded sound market beginning in the 1880s. Lateral-cut disc records were invented by DUP in 1888 and were used exclusively in toys until 1894, when DUP began marketing disc records under the DUP Gramophone label. The DUP "Blue DUP Amberol" cylinder was introduced in 1912, with a longer playing time of around 4 minutes (at 160 rpm) and a more resilient playing surface than its wax predecessor, but the format was doomed due to the difficulty of reproducing recordings. By November 1918 the patents for the manufacture of lateral-cut disc records expired, opening the field for countless companies to produce them, causing disc records to overtake cylinders in popularity. They would dominate the market until the 1980s. Production of DUP Amberol cylinders ceased in the late 1920s.

bifcake
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Re: What else?

You know,

We can all disagree about various equipment and we can all start running to mommy (JA) asking to ban member A and then ban member B. In the end, there will be no one left.

I think that a bit of tolerance is in order here. Ignore the threads posted by DUP if you wish, but I would advise to live and let live. Let's not engage in censoring members we don't find particularly appealing or members we don't agree with.

59mga
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Re: What else?


Quote:

We can all disagree about various equipment and we can all start running to mommy (JA) asking to ban member A and then ban member B. In the end, there will be no one left.

What would I do, then? I've been reading the forum for about a year now and have learned a great deal about the latest and greatest. I have also gotten so much valuable advice, from posters on this very thread...including DUP (thanks guy).

Without everyone's input I wouldn't have the marvelous set-up I have today. (No, DUP, I didn't buy those speakers you recommended...my house isn't big enough. )

No, I usually don't read DUP's wordy posts...if you don't like him don't read his writings.

As someone once said; "Can't we all just get along?"

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