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geoffkait
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And the answer is...

I have not felt the urge to do anything. Everything is fine. Is that wrong?

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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nope

Nope, nothing wrong, it's the level you are at as a listener.

So as people move beyond the level of listening to a Sony Walkman, there's nothing wrong with that either?

My point is this. I believe those who have reach certain levels of listening and wish to stay there shouldn't be advising those who have gone further on their journey. I mean what advice do you have for us who have been in the music biz? Very little, so why do you wish to put spins on threads that are perfectly healthy without you? Freedom of speech is cool and all, but distracting others with higher goals is not very productive as a whole. Your training at NASA, your designing of audio products, your leaving your in-room system and reference high end audio system behind for a Sony Walkman speaks fairly loud about your expertise. Joining in sure, but spins for those who are actively involved in a higher level of listening, is a bit down grading for this hobby.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Award
michael green wrote:

Nope, nothing wrong, it's the level you are at as a listener.

So as people move beyond the level of listening to a Sony Walkman, there's nothing wrong with that either?

My point is this. I believe those who have reach certain levels of listening and wish to stay there shouldn't be advising those who have gone further on their journey. I mean what advice do you have for us who have been in the music biz? Very little, so why do you wish to put spins on threads that are perfectly healthy without you? Freedom of speech is cool and all, but distracting others with higher goals is not very productive as a whole. Your training at NASA, your designing of audio products, your leaving your in-room system and reference high end audio system behind for a Sony Walkman speaks fairly loud about your expertise. Joining in sure, but spins for those who are actively involved in a higher level of listening, is a bit down grading for this hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael, your post wins the Laughing Goat award for most humorous post of the week. Thanks for the laughs!

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Geoff Kait
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A few things
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

Where I was driving at is it isn't the digital but the digital playback system. Where as there are lots of tape players that sound very nice, there are not as many CD players that have reached that level. But I don't want people to think that Digital is the same as saying Compact Disc. Where the compact disc may have had problems with players, digital is successful as a language. For example look at the DAT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Tape (for those not familar). The timing of digital tape and the compact disc over lapped and people choose the CD over the tape for home use, but where tapes and tables have had a long history in R&D the CD Player being a different animal never got the same attention. As you and I both pointed out the transformers were a big no no, and there were other things that I have found that didn't work so well with the over built players. Some of these same problems I have heard with over built tables and tape players, but that laser pickup and conversion some times works, and some Players can burn a hole right through the brain. I have my thoughts on why, but I don't think it is from a lack of info.

Anyway I'm glad you have confirmed that some players do indeed sound good.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

The issue with DAT wasn't an issue of quality per say. In fact it very well could have been and in a way was the precursor of modern HD storage. I say this because it would play several playback formats at several resolutions, including early mp3, unless I've confused it with MiniDisk. The issue was that the commercial recording standard, ATRAC, sucked. And you still had the storage an maintanance concerns of tape. Now mind you these were greatly overblown, but they were also well enough documented by proponents of LP and CD that they became fact in the mind of consumers.

In a perfect world, DAT would have survived and the physical format would have been made backward compatible as an analog also format for consumers who hadn't bought into digital and outboard dacs and digital cables, etc. But Sony had other plans, and with the exception of BetaMax, if Sony is out, the format dies.

My one contention is the R&D component of what you are saying. R&D for the CD was almost 20 years before it saw the light of day commercially. Optical audio technology goes back to 1940's film if you really want to get technical. CD is in fact one technology that was basically a mature set of technologies the day it came to market, unlike the vinyl LP, which has been a work in progress for over 50 years. Magnetic tape was never "perfected" the way, say modern LP playback has been. It was just kind of quit on.

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Yep

Hi jgossman

Yep I hear you, thanks. Maybe I should have said the R&D of the CDP. Whereas turntables are adjustable and tape decks are adjustable, CDP's should have been made adjustable as well.

Thanks for the correction and history. I enjoy your posts.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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thread bump

Hi readers

While reading geoff's comments on other threads here we should take a peek at his reference system, as displayed on the OP.

The Sony Walkman Portable Cassette Player.

michael green
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geoffkait
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Second portable system now on line
michael green wrote:

Hi readers

While reading geoff's comments on other threads here we should take a peek at his reference system, as displayed on the OP.

The Sony Walkman Portable Cassette Player.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hey, speaking of portable systems here's what my Sony Walkman CD player looks like, with matching Sony Walkman earphones. This little system baby tips the scales at just under 1/32 of a Slug, or 14 ounces for you non technical types. Tweaked to the max, naturally. Now, the question is, should this be a product? Hmmm....

 photo 40711e51ee648894a1a63b1035d127b5_zpse310b7c3.jpg

Inside the Sony:

 photo 54b5fdf7b42946b38f1ff91354180b09_zps1662b629.jpg

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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product?

This is a bit confussing geoff. On other threads your bashing digital "I think it best to consider digital a dead technology".

Could you explain why your wanting to make it a product now after the bashing?

michael green
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geoffkait
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Gotta play my CDs on something

You don't think I'm going to throw away all my CDs do you? Have to have something to listen to them on, no? The portable is actually quite entertaining.

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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bashing digital

So the bashing of digital wasn't quite as bad as you made it out to be? Now it's "quite entertaining".

You also mentioned that comparing your Tape cassette player vs the Digital was not comparable, why?

People compare different types of playback against each other all the time, just like they do same recordings on different formats.

michael green
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geoffkait
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Maybe, maybe not

Oh, I suppose one could read a lot of things into what I say. :-)

You asked,

"You also mentioned that comparing your Tape cassette player vs the Digital was not comparable, why?"

Really? Is that really what I said or are you giving it your usual twist? Is this another one of those Strawman arguments, you know, the ones where you claim I said something then I have to defend what I didn't say? LOL. I think digital tends to be bland and uninvolving while tape tends to get more of the music right. Digital sounds like it has less noise but also less information. Digital for some reason almost never sounds correct in the high frequencies, but tape usually does. Tape will frequently make you turn around or look over you shoulder while listening on headphones thinking someone is there, but digital does this rather infrequently if at all. That's all with tweaked players and tweaked CDs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, untweaked CDs and untweaked CD players are beyond hopeless. Does this help answer your question?

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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yep thanks

Yep thanks. Based on your description you've had limited experience with digital.

michael green
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geoffkait
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Yer right
michael green wrote:

Yep thanks. Based on your description you've had limited experience with digital.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Yer right. Only 30 years. But who's counting?

Interesting that you're apparently fond of digital. I guess you can used to anything.

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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I like it all

I like it all. I think tape, vinyl and CD's are a great start and I'm excited about the future too.

Lots of smart people out there pushing the storage envelope, and since figuring out what the signal is and how to tune it in, I don't run into the same problems you have described your getting.

michael green
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geoffkait
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Oh, I understand. Trust me.
michael green wrote:

I like it all. I think tape, vinyl and CD's are a great start and I'm excited about the future too.

Lots of smart people out there pushing the storage envelope, and since figuring out what the signal is and how to tune it in, I don't run into the same problems you have described your getting.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I can certainly appreciate why you wouldn't want to alienate any potential customers. ;-). Good luck with that whole storage bandwagon thing. ;-)

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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thanks

geoff said

"I can certainly appreciate why you wouldn't want to alienate any potential customers. ;-). Good luck with that whole storage bandwagon thing. ;-)"

Thanks geoff, yep I'm here to continue the "Tune" bandwagon for sure!!

I mean look at how easy your making it for me LOL. There are a few naysayers that come up here and say stuff and then you and May and Catch, but look at all the listeners that are reading then coming over to read Tuneland. Your over here talking about anything but music, and they're over at TuneLand talking only about music.

Incase you don't know what bandwagon means 1.increasingly popular movement: a cause or movement that is gaining popularity and support

michael green
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geoffkait
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Bandwagon
michael green wrote:

geoff said

"I can certainly appreciate why you wouldn't want to alienate any potential customers. ;-). Good luck with that whole storage bandwagon thing. ;-)"

Thanks geoff, yep I'm here to continue the "Tune" bandwagon for sure!!

I mean look at how easy your making it for me LOL. There are a few naysayers that come up here and say stuff and then you and May and Catch, but look at all the listeners that are reading then coming over to read Tuneland. Your over here talking about anything but music, and they're over at TuneLand talking only about music.

Incase you don't know what bandwagon means 1.increasingly popular movement: a cause or movement that is gaining popularity and support

michael green
MGA/TuneLand
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

>>>>>>>>>Some more definitions of the word bandwagon, perhaps more pertinent to my point. Sorry for the alliteration, totally unintentional.

n. noun
An elaborately decorated wagon used to transport musicians in a parade.
Young voters climbing aboard the party's bandwagon.
A current trend.

Yes, I can see how TuneLand fits those definitions. Lol

Interesting that you think this is some sort of popularity contest. Yeah, I can see that. Lol

Geoff Kait
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michael green wrote:
michael green wrote:

geoff said

"I can certainly appreciate why you wouldn't want to alienate any potential customers. ;-). Good luck with that whole storage bandwagon thing. ;-)"

Thanks geoff, yep I'm here to continue the "Tune" bandwagon for sure!!

I mean look at how easy your making it for me LOL. There are a few naysayers that come up here and say stuff and then you and May and Catch, but look at all the listeners that are reading then coming over to read Tuneland. Your over here talking about anything but music, and they're over at TuneLand talking only about music.

Incase you don't know what bandwagon means 1.increasingly popular movement: a cause or movement that is gaining popularity and support

michael green
MGA/TuneLand
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

++++++
You might want to fix your tuneland member counter then, because when I looked at your site back in July you had 145 members. Now you have 146. At that rate, you'll be able to field a basketball team sometime in 2018. Catch

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welcome to Tuneland's 259,065 registered users +

Welcome to TuneLand Catch22

Are you sure you counted right? www.tuneland.info + http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ "over a quarter million members", bigger than Stereophile.

At the time TuneLand grew so fast it got too big for me to handle and the Admin retired, so I started the Techno-zone. Most of the people who read the new format are from the now archived site. No need to registor twice, unless your going to post.

You really should look at the whole picture or ask before you put your foot in your mouth over and over.

As far as the newer TuneLand, I would guess it will start taking off similar to the old TuneLand at around the 300 member mark. If you look at other forums that's usually how it works. I'm not in any rush. Having over 250,000 members is okie dokie with me.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Catch22
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So, you've had 2 new members join in 5 months?

That's patience of Methuselah! So where are all these new converts that you claim Geoff is throwing your way going? I had just assumed that the site you keep linking to is your ongoing concern and business. From the looks of the two sites, your current site began in 2009 and now has 145 members...according to you, most from your old site.

If the counter is correct, it would appear that reaching 300 members, as you project for your take-off velocity, is a little optimistic. At least from the perspective that they will be coming from the readership of Stereophile and the audiophile community.

Comparing the two sites and their time frame existence gives a much better understanding of whats going on. Thanks for the clarification.

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TuneLand

Hi Catch

While your trying to make your spin, let me help you. Take a look at one another number. The number of people on the site reading. In august 2012 was the peak of number of readers on the site at the same time reading. On that day we had 145 people reading TuneLand at the same time.

You can't see the behind the scenes but if you know anything about phpBB's there's pages behind the pages we see that give the number of visitors and where they are reading from and where they are reading at on the forum.

There's a few more things you may not know, but now that your making it a point I'm happy to share. See the little tab up above that says messages? This is where + the contact email the people contact us for info or ask questions. There have been I would say about 75 of the Stereophile forum members that have sent me messages in that area since the beginning of the year. I'm only guessing bacause I have the messages set at 100 and those get filled up pretty quick then I empty them out and start again. I get about 40 a week in that message area from wherever. I would imagine since you are promoting me now too that number will go up. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . I try the best I can to encourage people to post cause it's hard to keep up on emails and messages, but I also understand that a lot of folks don't like posting on forums and I don't blame them really.

I'm not into the claiming game, never have been. For me that's for frauds, scammers, flamers and people like yourself who pick internet targets for whatever reason, and try to cause discord. I pretty much tell it like it is and let the people decide what they will.

The way I look at it is by you bringing points like this up maybe it will cause people to register and post instead of doing it in private, but that's their option. BTW if you think I'm making up the private message story go to tuneland and send me a guest message and I'll return an email back to your email address. That should do away with that part. The number part, I really don't care if you try to make TuneLand look smaller than it is, this only brings me more attention. It's a little classless on your behalf, but that's more of a reflection on you than me.

Thanks listeners for reading www.tuneland.info and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and thank you Catch22 for being bothered enough that you visited my sites for yourself. Maybe you'll actually read stuff there and give them a try for yourself.

Most of all though I hope you the very best with your sound and if you ever what to consider TuneLand as a friend we are more than happy to accept you as one. I'm sad that you have choosen the attitude path you have, but that's really on you as I have said before.

Oh, also any of you visiting the CES be sure to get your picture taken with one of the "Get Tuned!" girls.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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An innocent question regarding the Get Tuned! Girls

I would like to hear a little more about these Get Tuned! Girls you speak of. Maybe post some pics? Heheheh

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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the "Get Tuned" Girls

Sorry Geoff, that would be off topic wouldn't it!

to quote you

"I said it was going to be fun, didn't say for who"

:)

michael green
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At last!
michael green wrote:

Sorry Geoff, that would be off topic wouldn't it!

to quote you

"I said it was going to be fun, didn't say for who"

:)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Finally, a funny comeback. Good one!

Geoff Kait
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geoffkait
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Does tape have higher resolution than CD?

Something's been nagging me. I've been listening to a lot of cassettes and a lot of CDs lo these past several months. One thing, a rather general thing, an observation if you will, is that cassettes tend to sound more whole and complete, especially noticeable on transients and various sounds such as brass horns, water, rain, applause, raucous sounds, scraping sounds, and so forth. Is this because tape is inherently higher resolution than CD? Someone opined that that's the case. Does anyone have any links to comparisons?

Riddle me this, why can't you hear the tape hiss from the original tape recording on CD but you can on cassette?

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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this vs that

All about levels.

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Levels?

No, seriously. Why is information missing in action? Where did it all go? Did it get sucked into another dimension?

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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we listened

Hi Geoff

Because I'm writing on Stereophile forum I asked my friends who were visiting me if they would listened to several references for me so I had more than just me and my headphone buddy to backup my experiences.

First off, even though we go back and forth I'm very happy you've gone low mass cause I believe this is the way to go for the hobby to get the most. I also believe in personal taste and don't want to pick on your taste or anyones. You've been hearing me say there are millions of ways to listen and my goal is not to pick what someone wants to hear for them but instead to make it possible for anyone to go anywhere.

We brought over your sport walkman and a couple of pro Sony's. We also have been comparing a lot of things during this time so again please don't take offence. Our basic conclusion was that we feel you will find some other low mass products that will take you further than the route you are trying. The Walkmans didn't fare very well against the in-room systems, but neither did the high end stuff we brought over. There were also two Nakamichi decks and one Tascam. They were put on the in-room systems and the listener would wear the headphone then go to the in-room.

In all fairness there wasn't a lot of time spent on this after the first few guys did it, cause they wanted to move on, and the next few who followed laughed after the first quick listen and on it went till the portables were shelved.

I think the folks who stopped by had something different on their brains than listening to some of the stuff I had setup for comparisons. The Walkmans and the tuned system really were apples and oranges. I have no doubt when you say they are better than your high mass high end system, that makes perfect sense, and as you explore more low mass goodies it will be cool to check out but at least in this round at this level it was pretty much a blowout for the guys who listened.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Something's missing, all right
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

Because I'm writing on Stereophile forum I asked my friends who were visiting me if they would listened to several references for me so I had more than just me and my headphone buddy to backup my experiences.

First off, even though we go back and forth I'm very happy you've gone low mass cause I believe this is the way to go for the hobby to get the most. I also believe in personal taste and don't want to pick on your taste or anyones. You've been hearing me say there are millions of ways to listen and my goal is not to pick what someone wants to hear for them but instead to make it possible for anyone to go anywhere.

We brought over your sport walkman and a couple of pro Sony's. We also have been comparing a lot of things during this time so again please don't take offence. Our basic conclusion was that we feel you will find some other low mass products that will take you further than the route you are trying. The Walkmans didn't fare very well against the in-room systems, but neither did the high end stuff we brought over. There were also two Nakamichi decks and one Tascam. They were put on the in-room systems and the listener would wear the headphone then go to the in-room.

In all fairness there wasn't a lot of time spent on this after the first few guys did it, cause they wanted to move on, and the next few who followed laughed after the first quick listen and on it went till the portables were shelved.

I think the folks who stopped by had something different on their brains than listening to some of the stuff I had setup for comparisons. The Walkmans and the tuned system really were apples and oranges. I have no doubt when you say they are better than your high mass high end system, that makes perfect sense, and as you explore more low mass goodies it will be cool to check out but at least in this round at this level it was pretty much a blowout for the guys who listened.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

>>>>>Thanks for comparing (I think lol) but as you say it's like comparing apples to Brussels Sprouts. My Sony Walkman cassette and CD players are not stock players at all and are treated a number of different ways. Unless you guys are using MY players with MY earphones and using my techniques you're just pissing into the wind. That is why I use these techniques, to get the sound up to the level where it should be. What is the definition of a secret? It's something no one else knows about. Lol I never ever listen to stock off the shelf anything. Get real. I'm sure you don't either. What would be the point? So don't try to tell me you know what my portable systems sound like or try to tell me what my systems sound like by looking at a photo of them. Lol. Whatever example of a thing you want to give me in audio, a speaker, a cable a tweak, there will always be some guys somewhere who can't hear it. That much we already know. Besides I think we already knew you in particular, for whatever set of reasons, just don't have much luck with other folks' ideas or products. It's the old not invented here routine. I've already seen the movie. I'm also working on developing the theory that you and your buds are actually quite stone deaf. Thus, you get two choices, what's behind Door 1 and what's behind Door 2. Question: does your hair block your ears? Lol

Geoff Kait
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michael green
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OP

geoff's OP

"New project, the Sony Walkman, I obtained a S2 Sport Walkman in like new condition for $49 on eBay and accumulated about ten cassettes in great condition"

Yep the guys at the CES would be nuts to not hop on Ebay right now and buy these up, send them to you for your secret tweak, and stop the world from moving.

How much could I buy one of your tweaked portable cassette players for? I'd like to purchase one for the folks at Sony, Qualcomm and the others to use as their reference system.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Good one
michael green wrote:

geoff's OP

"New project, the Sony Walkman, I obtained a S2 Sport Walkman in like new condition for $49 on eBay and accumulated about ten cassettes in great condition"

Yep the guys at the CES would be nuts to not hop on Ebay right now and buy these up, send them to you for your secret tweak, and stop the world from moving.

How much could I buy one of your tweaked portable cassette players for? I'd like to purchase one for the folks at Sony, Qualcomm and the others to use as their reference system.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Sarcasm actually becomes you. Good one. Keep 'em coming.

Geoff Kait
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I'm serious!

Nope I'm serious, I'll buy one completely tweaked by you, one that totally meets your approval and have the same guys listen to it in the same or any other conditions you suggest.

I don't want to be unfair about any of this. If you believe that your tweaked Walkman can compete or your intelligent chip I think we should put them to the test and have a group of people be a part of the testing who can then give their reports.

I think if we do constructive explorations it's good for the industry and people who come up here to read. As members are saying "we're tired of the arguements" I think the best way to put this kind of stuff to bed is something I suggested a year ago, we reference the claims people make.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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"If we do constructive explorations"
michael green wrote:

Nope I'm serious, I'll buy one completely tweaked by you, one that totally meets your approval and have the same guys listen to it in the same or any other conditions you suggest.

I don't want to be unfair about any of this. If you believe that your tweaked Walkman can compete or your intelligent chip I think we should put them to the test and have a group of people be a part of the testing who can then give their reports.

I think if we do constructive explorations it's good for the industry and people who come up here to read. As members are saying "we're tired of the arguements" I think the best way to put this kind of stuff to bed is something I suggested a year ago, we reference the claims people make.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Assuming you're actually serious in wishing to obtain a Machina Dynamica Hot Rodded Portable Cassette Player or a Machina Dynamica Hot Rodded Portable CD Player or a Super Intelligent Chip, I respectfully decline your offer to test them as I've already seen the movie. I prefer not selling to any members of audio forums on which I post as it's a conflict of interest. I also don't engage in these peer review type evaluations such as you are suggesting. So there's no misunderstanding I will not sell ANY of my products to anyone associated with TuneLand. Furthermore, not to put too fine a point on it, I'm pretty sure after debating a wide range of topics here on Stereophile Forum lo these past six months that we have entirely different concepts of what you refer to as "constructive explorations."

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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That's smart, Geoffy-boy

I wonder hou you'll detect that Mr. John Doe from (say) Illinois is the same as cutebabe18 from this forum?
Hire the Pinkertons?

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iosiP wrote:
iosiP wrote:

I wonder hou you'll detect that Mr. John Doe from (say) Illinois is the same as cutebabe18 from this forum?
Hire the Pinkertons?

Gosh, you're a positive person!

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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CD's

when CD's first came out they sounded good to most people because most people owned playback gear that was crap,and the only advantage to digital is that when played back on inexpensive crap they sound pretty good. But anyone like me thirty years ago who owned expensive high-end gear on which we played LP's were immediately struck by how shitty digital sounded. It's the lowest common denominator phenomenon. CD's were successful for the same reason McDonalds was. No one who appreciated a good bone-in ribeye thought Mickey-Dees was all that great.

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the same was said

David, the same was said about every new source that has ever come out. First it was great and new, then the listening became more intune, then the designers figured out how to design systems to play it. Tapes had adjustments, Vinyl had adjustments, the CD was never taken to that same level, and at the same time CD's came out high end audio went discrete. That's a flawed method of designing of playback and nothing more.

There are tons of ultra high end systems out there that play CD's just fine, same with streaming systems. The problem is soley with the playback systems. This has been and is being demo-ed in many places around the world now and is becoming more documented than ever before.

Let me ask you the question "do you believe in a recorded code?".

Again I keep seeing you guys talk but your not answering the question that is the most important one in all these talks. You have a recorded code on one end of the chain, and a playback system on the other. With tape, and tables you have adjustments to help match the two ends. What do you have with CD's to do the same?

Your judging CD's without ever knowing how to play them.

Let me ask you another question David, how many components do you have in your system?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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"Tons of high end systems that play CDs just fine"
michael green wrote:

David, the same was said about every new source that has ever come out. First it was great and new, then the listening became more intune, then the designers figured out how to design systems to play it. Tapes had adjustments, Vinyl had adjustments, the CD was never taken to that same level, and at the same time CD's came out high end audio went discrete. That's a flawed method of designing of playback and nothing more.

There are tons of ultra high end systems out there that play CD's just fine, same with streaming systems. The problem is soley with the playback systems. This has been and is being demo-ed in many places around the world now and is becoming more documented than ever before.

Let me ask you the question "do you believe in a recorded code?".

Again I keep seeing you guys talk but your not answering the question that is the most important one in all these talks. You have a recorded code on one end of the chain, and a playback system on the other. With tape, and tables you have adjustments to help match the two ends. What do you have with CD's to do the same?

Your judging CD's without ever knowing how to play them.

Let me ask you another question David, how many components do you have in your system?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

You say there are tons of high end systems out there that play CDs just fine. But you actually haven't heard them all, you're just assuming. Going further, when you say they play system just fine, that's not what we're really talking about, we're talking about achieving a very high level of sound, not a sound that is just "fine." And one person's high level of sound is another person's crap sound. Everything is relative. There are NO ABSOLUTES. You assume there are tons of high end systems with high end sound, is that what you are trying to say? That's almost certainly not true and you would be unable to prove it even if it were true. I have already outlined what I think is wrong with ALL high end digital systems; if the systems do address my issues there's an excellent chance I would judge them as sounding like crap, that I would not judge them as high end sound by my definition. One can't help wondering how I would judge your system.....hmmmmm

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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post

Micheal I just spent a half an hour typing a really good, well thought out post and I accidently hit the wrong key on my computer and the entire thing disappeared. I'ts a testament to my self-control that I didn't throw this F***ing thing against the wall as hard as I could.
I guess I don't get how the fact that a component is large, expensive, and very well built leads you logically to the conclusion that it's not as good as a smaller, cheaper, lesser piece of gear. So, is a Dodge Dart or a Ford Focus superior to a BMW M3?

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post

Micheal I just spent a half an hour typing a really good, well thought out post and I accidently hit the wrong key on my computer and the entire thing disappeared. I'ts a testament to my self-control that I didn't throw this F***ing thing against the wall as hard as I could.
I guess I don't get how the fact that a component is large, expensive, and very well built leads you logically to the conclusion that it's not as good as a smaller, cheaper, lesser piece of gear. So, is a Dodge Dart or a Ford Focus superior to a BMW M3?

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disappearing posts

Hi David

There is nothing more painful than loosing a well thought out post!

you said

"I guess I don't get how the fact that a component is large, expensive, and very well built leads you logically to the conclusion that it's not as good as a smaller, cheaper, lesser piece of gear. So, is a Dodge Dart or a Ford Focus superior to a BMW M3?"

mg

Having owned both the M3 and M5, you won't mind me smiling at this! Any of these car companies, when they put their best foot forward are something to behold but I do love the BMW feel and response making them my favorite. The thing that makes these cars so special is how they know both ends of the game and how to get there. If you go to a great auto test sight, you will not only hear about the cars but about how in-touch these cars are to their environment and condtions and how they continue to make these cars "tunable" to adjust to the world around them. The amount of sensors and auto adjustments on these machines is outrageous. The days of cars that can only go fast in a straight line is over.

Audio is not about going only straight. As time moves forward in our world and hobby we are seeing that audio needs to be able to match the recorded code to the playback system. The reason why we have thousands of systems that all sound different is because we have spent the last 20 or so years building dragsters, instead of building BMW's. If you built a BMW with the same rigid format, what would happen as soon as that car met a corner?

This part of the industry, to it's credit, has made thousands if not millions of particular signatures of sound, but this is not how recordings work and that is the part that has been missed and needs to be learned before High End Audio will ever move to the next level. Just as cars have been developed to move forward as well as every direction, this is the next step for music systems concerning a higher level of performance.

I know it's hard to understand that there is a next step, especially since we have been in that "dragster" mentality for so long, with every month there being a different sound that is declared to best the last, but we have to stop sometime and see what we have built. We've got this program built in our brains from all the reviews and marketing that these discrete signatures are the answer but not one discrete system out there sounds the same, or can even play the same recordings good or bad. Discrete means: individually separate and distinct, which is the opposite from the way recording and music itself works. Recordings and music are variables. You capture it on one end and you tune it in on the other. On the playback end you do this with electrical, mechanical and acoustical adjustments.

part two coming up

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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part two

When, we started tuning in the early 80's I was deep into high end audio and that's pretty much what we experimented on for years, with few exceptions. Then, my listening room freakishly got hit with lightning and I had to do a rebuild. When the construction was done I setup the system in the mainroom again and quickly realized I had no mono blocks left to use. I was pretty bummed at the thought that I was going to have to use a Marantz MA700 as my reference amp till I recieved my several reference amps back. I had a Parasound CDX88 CD player and the 700's (they have volume controls). So I got started, and I think that was the day that my mind was able to let go of the High End Audio marketing program. Of course I'm mixing this in with a few other events and experiments that happened over a period of time, but one right after another this simple system would smash the sound of my extremely expensive, extremely well reviewed High End systems. Keep in mind that at this time RoomTune was a very hot item and I had tons and tons of equipment at my finger tips. I distributed about 25 sets of these amps to other listeners to get their response, and all came back the same. The MA700 mono block meant for video systems "tuned" was walking all over the big boys "tuned".

This is when I started investing in a wide range of products up and down the money and build scale. I didn't set out to discredit High End Audio products I just involved myself with designing tunable systems, and as time went on I found that the simply built components with less mass and better weight distribution beat up on the massively built products. Fast forward to 20 years later and hundreds and hundreds of components I no longer make my judgements on cost and press marketing.

My goal is this, to see audio, high, middle or low end, get closer to the audio signal and pickup on a missing chapter that got put on the shelf when High End went discrete without developing the mechanical and acoustical 3rds of the trio. The High End Audiophiles put too much faith and hope in components as being the be all end all, and the mechanics and acoustics can be treated as by-standers, and that's never going to work, especially when these systems are playing music with several millions of variable codes.

I think one misconception here (probably because of some members playing internet trolls) is that I'm down on High End Audio or the Audiophile. This could be no further from the truth. I am and have always been an audiophile and am a part of the High End Audio community. I want nothing more than to see music lovers enjoying music more than they have ever done and for the younger generations to have the same joy and love that has been handed down to us, but this comes with constantly discovering what makes audio the very best it can be, and playback systems to be able to play that music.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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just today

Hi David

This post just went up moments ago and I wanted to send over a link so you can see what people are doing and what they're finding as a result of loosing the mass.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t284-another-look-at-tuning

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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geoff's tweaks

geoff has mentioned that he has been doing tweaks on the Portable Cassette Players and so I'm hoping that we can share some tweak talk.

I've only seen the pictures that he has posted and on his website and based on these there are a few obvious tweaks to be done so I'm sure he has looked into these and can now share them with us.

My question though is geoff if you have done these wire tweaks why are you not showing them on your website sales page as well as on AudioGon? The earphones, wires and connector look stock to me. Or are you not redesigning the product only applying an additive tweak.

The ones I refer to are easy to see and widely used by headphone and earphone tweakers.

looking forward to a good discussion on modifying these

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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There you go again!
michael green wrote:

geoff has mentioned that he has been doing tweaks on the Portable Cassette Players and so I'm hoping that we can share some tweak talk.

I've only seen the pictures that he has posted and on his website and based on these there are a few obvious tweaks to be done so I'm sure he has looked into these and can now share them with us.

My question though is geoff if you have done these wire tweaks why are you not showing them on your website sales page as well as on AudioGon? The earphones, wires and connector look stock to me. Or are you not redesigning the product only applying an additive tweak.

The ones I refer to are easy to see and widely used by headphone and earphone tweakers.

looking forward to a good discussion on modifying these

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Questions, you have questions? If you had been paying attention lo these last six months you would realize that a lot of the tweaks and treatments we've been discussing, no not the springs, cones, stands, mu metal, cork, but the other ones, the ones that are INVISIBLE. The ones you can't sen in the photos of the room or the photos of the system. Hel-loo!! There have been a bunch of paradigm shifts in tweaks in the past twenty years, probably more like the past thirty years, that have gone under the radar. An example of a tweak that's invisible you can relate to is hot treatment of cables and players. Where are the tweaks? Hahahah. That's the beauty of invisible tweaks, no one even has to know you've done anything to the wires, and perhaps more importantly no one has to know what those treatments even are. Let me give you an example. The Clever Clock has something like 25 steps involved in assembly. Some of these steps are visible, like the holographic little thingie on the clock face, and the little square orange sticker on the clock face. But all of the other tweaks and modifications I do to the clock are not visible. Even of you open the clock up and take a look inside there is simply not much you will find. The reason is because a lot of the treatments I use in the clock are invisible. Inns immerses they are visible but you wouldn't think to look there. A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. You could assembly a group of engineers and physicists in a room with the Clever Little Clock and give them a week and they would be unable to figure out how the clock works. Now, THAT is advanced technology. So, with the portable player, everything is treated or modified - you just can't see the treatments or guess what they are, I mean, unless you had been paying attention on these discussions. Where are the modifications widely used by other headphone and earphone tweakers use that are easy to see? That's a good one!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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priceless lol

Sorry geoff your cracking me up more than ususal today.

geoff now says...."That's the beauty of invisible tweaks, no one even has to know you've done anything to the wires, and perhaps more importantly no one has to know what those treatments even are."

So now geoff's tweaks are invisible.

Ok, now follow me with this dude.

First he moves away from having an in-room system 8 years ago "and never looked back", but still sells acoustic tweaks. Then he claims he has the answer with his High End Headphone system, because of the way he is isolating it, and all of us need to do his formula of tweaks or we are not getting all the music. Next thing we read is geoff dumps his isolated "geoff tweaked" CD system for a portable Sony Walkman Cassette Player. Keep in mind he says CD's sound..."CDs frequently sound whimpy, congealed, compressed, hard, metallic, nasal, boring, bass shy, airless, soulless and threadbare" And now when asked to talk about his tweaks geoff says they're invisible.

Sorry geoff, your killen me today lol. This is being an audiophile to you lol.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Dunno why you Pro Audio guys

Dunno why you Pro Audio guys are SO behind the times. Maybe you can explain it to me. This is your big chance. Is cryogenics invisible? Well, yeah. Is baking CDs invisible? Uh, huh. Is Schumann frequency invisible. Yeppers. Is the Synergistic Research Tesla coil treatment invisible? Doh! What about George Tice's treatment for his clock and power line conditioners? Yup. Is Cream Electret invisible? Well, yeah! Is the Teleportation Tweak invisible? I know, that's a tough one. Neutralizing the static charge? Well, doh! Dark Matter? Three guesses, the first two don't count. The trouble with you tuning/pro audio dudes and one assumes dudettes is you lack imagination.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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LOL

LOL

Stated from the NASA guy who's Cd's sound like "CDs frequently sound whimpy, congealed, compressed, hard, metallic, nasal, boring, bass shy, airless, soulless and threadbare"

geoff, I don't see naming your list of invisible tweaks and ending up with "CDs frequently sound whimpy, congealed, compressed, hard, metallic, nasal, boring, bass shy, airless, soulless and threadbare" as being a good thing. With that sound I could see why you have to use your "imagination" lol.

Anyway, a shout out to George. He was one of the first guys to welcome me to the CES's. Him, George Cardas and a bunch of fun guys back in the late 80's early 90's. Remember those days guys? We had a blast! There for about 6 years were some great times with some great personalities. It was also High End Audio at it's most popular time, the shows were packed.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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You must be pulling my leg, right?

I am pretty sure you have some sort of reading comprehension issue. I am referring to CDs right out of the box when I say they sound BAD. Are you pretending to be dense again?

Cardas? Again with the name dropping. Boy, you're one insecure puppy dog. Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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a CD

A CD can only make sound when you play it, unless you have an invisible tweak for that as well :)

How could someone possibly call any source bad sounding before it is played geoff?

I didn't know saying hi to friends was name dropping or a sign of insecurity, so thanks for that advice. It's ok if I call my sister today right? I'd hate to be calling her out of my insecurities :)

Trust me geoff, after a year with you it's pretty sure I know your meaning and agenda.

But, my agenda is to simply use you at this point to promote tuning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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