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michael green
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hand & face

Geoff, when your in a group of guys who have some experience with certain topics, and you stick your face in front of a swinging hand your bound to get slapped.

I think people here appreciate input whether they are on the same page or not when topics are discussed with a fair amount of tact, taste and even grace. For example when almost everyone has a bathroom scale and can weigh things on their own, with and without springs your going to get in a little trouble if your saying things like the springs made the object lighter. I know that you like theories and you like painting pictures of "join me or get out", but in a hobby of doing, you can't go throwing things out there depending on someone not doing.

On a few threads you pounded on people when they said they used springs as transfer devices. "no your isolating" were your words. Fact is springs are used for a lot of different things and you need to give room for the uses that are outside of your own desire to create a theory of absolutes. If not again your going to have a lot of people who "do" and call you out on it.

You also need to realize that there are a lot of readers who are exploring the things I you and others recommend trying. If the pages are full of info and guides, experiments can be done and results can be given and these results can then be expound on. If a negative "well try this then", if a positive "here's the next step". This is how moving forward works. All the side track filler is what keeps the wheels from turning. This is also why I keep going back and give quotes on the things you say. It seems sometimes your saying them for other reasons than wanting the truth to be explored and experienced. The truth doesn't need you or me to draw lines in the sand. The truth is found by you making a path for others to follow in. If they find the same results that's part of the truth, but truth from that moment on moves forward and developes into even greater truths. Myth is what a truth could be according to what might have been in a pretend world, or a world based on soley theories. Truth is a corner stone to build on, not a thought pushed by only part of the story.

Two ways to look at exploring. You can look at the "wholes" or you can look at the "holes".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

jgossman
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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Your understanding of springs seems to be well kind of superficial.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I hate to beat the proverbial dead horse, but bullshit. Damping only, well, damps said resonances. And in the case of LP playback, we're talking microns of "anti-social" wiggling to make a difference. Since you don't know that I have indeed played with springs, and spring like materials and decided they basically stink to high heaven, don't assume I don't have a pretty good understanding of how springs work. Not to mention in studying gravity and balance in entry level physics in high school and or college, one of the tools use is, tadaaaa springs. Using springs for phonography isn't uncommon, it's just not the best. It's used because it's the cheapest easiest way toward macro movement damping. In fact, I find a mix of light weight, high stiffness shelves, and constrained layer damping with various feet, again tuned to everything from the voicing of the cartridge to the voicing of the speaker to work the best for making music.

There again - an understanding of the science is the start, making music is the end goal. Assailing people who call you out on face psuedo-science is a serious character flaw.

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
michael green wrote:

Geoff said "You are enamored of tuning variables."

Yep guilty. From the first time I heard my cousin (Doc Watson for you bluegrass guys) play his guitar I was hooked. Hearing the tones and structures send me to a place I don't think I can describe any better than needing to do music for a living, and for my hobby as well. My life so far has been one big concert.

I kinda laugh a little when some up here say "oh man I have to tune every recording". I think "well you don't have to I guess" lol. Followed by "why wouldn't you want to". Music is something to do casually sure, but when I think of the name audiophile I don't think of the guys trying to get out of work, but of the guys trying to get every last drop out of it. I think of guys thumbing through old and new collections anticipating the journey. I don't think of guys sitting there saying "man is that a bad recording", but of the guys who make that recording right and kick back for the ride, into the artist world. I'm not here for the guys that doubt, but for the guys who all their life have wanted to believe.

Yep, I'm enamored with it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

You apparently haven't gotten the point. Why spend all that EFFORT and EXPENSE tuning the room, which we would both probably agree is critical to success, MISSION CRITICAL as they say at NASA, you know, with all those room nodes, echoes, standing waves and what not, when it would be much easier and much more to the point to eliminate the room entirely?! If thine eye offends there, pluck it out!! I'm all in favor of making life easier and making the SOUND QUALITY better in most ways that matter by eliminating all that speaker cabling, the speakers, the crossovers. I'll give you soundstage, but headphones have many advantages over speaker systems such as tonality, pitch control, detail, dynamics, and coherence. Why should an audiophile subject subject himself to a life of frustration and fruitless expense when he can achieve audiophile status in a blink of an eye? The next time you're sitting there admiring your soundstage or just staring off into space imagine you could sitting there with your headphones on reading a good book by NASA or someone on the subject of isolation or whatever. As Groucho Marx once commented when one of his guests mentioned she had seven children, I like my cigar too but I take it out sometimes.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

What if you have friends?

michael green
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the room

When we look back on dicussions about the room, I think we have covered how I feel about the room and how you feel Geoff.

For you it was an unsucessful venture, for me it's the land of plenty. You see the room as chaos to get rid of, and I see it as the land of opportunity. You see it as something you gave up on 7 years ago, and I see it as something that has brought me even closer to music over the past 7 years. You see this hobby as limited to the ears, I see it as involving the entire body. You see the room as something you don't want to mess with, I see it as the greatest gift to listening.

Geoff, the other point to this is, somehow you keep forgetting that I am Mr. RoomTune. Tuning rooms is not on the "IF" list for me. I'm not like you trading your in-room setup for a high end headphone setup and then trading for a Sony Walkman. I'm not and never will be the guy who jumps, I'm the guy who grows. I'm growing in knowledge of my headphone systems, my in-room systems and my recording systems. Throwing any of these aside to chase a Sony Walkman isn't my idea of moving or moving the industry forward. The Sony Walkman is a step along the way as many simple designs are and as much as I appreciate them it's not my calling to sit back in my comfy chair "as you put it" and read a book about something else. That to me is called casual listening and I am an audio designer with a little more on my plate than that. Besides even in the casual mode I still prefer hearing my in-room system in the next room over my headphones. As I have said a few times feeling the music is bigger to me than just treating the ears. I like my headphones but personally need more. If you haven't found that "more" with your in-room setups I would suggest you look into that with a little more gusto, and not just trying to convert people to a world they may not enjoy as well.

If you have to listen to headphones to get the detail, I can tell you my friend you should not be selling acoustical treatments, cause you have not yet heard a room. You also shouldn't be talking book-talk about rooms cause you have without a doubt not learned the positives of this incredible natural amplifier.

I sometimes have to smile when someone like you and other audiophile designers are talking room talk. Reminds me of when Art Noxon came to RoomTune to offer me a job :). Kinda cute, but I grew up in the studios, the halls and the playback rooms. I'm not interested in killing the sound, or breaking it up in little pieces. The name is RoomTune, Mr. Geoff, not OMG I better start listening to headphones only cause I can't figure out my room.

Geoff, there's a reason why it is called RoomTune. It's not called trap, or diffuse, reflect, or dampen, or comb filter exorcist, or even wishful thinker. I tune rooms. I've tuned them since I was 15, it's what I do. It's not a cool name that I used to sell audiophile pillows. It's part of a method of listening that allows the listener to put "in-tune" their system. On the hall end, recording and playback. Packing this up and trading it for a Sony Walkman is not exactly what the doctor ordered for me.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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That's quite an attitude, sport
jgossman wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Your understanding of springs seems to be well kind of superficial.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I hate to beat the proverbial dead horse, but bullshit. Damping only, well, damps said resonances. And in the case of LP playback, we're talking microns of "anti-social" wiggling to make a difference. Since you don't know that I have indeed played with springs, and spring like materials and decided they basically stink to high heaven, don't assume I don't have a pretty good understanding of how springs work. Not to mention in studying gravity and balance in entry level physics in high school and or college, one of the tools use is, tadaaaa springs. Using springs for phonography isn't uncommon, it's just not the best. It's used because it's the cheapest easiest way toward macro movement damping. In fact, I find a mix of light weight, high stiffness shelves, and constrained layer damping with various feet, again tuned to everything from the voicing of the cartridge to the voicing of the speaker to work the best for making music.

There again - an understanding of the science is the start, making music is the end goal. Assailing people who call you out on face psuedo-science is a serious character flaw.

How do expect to learn anything with an attitude like that? I think I can say without fear of contradiction that I have more experience with isolation systems and springs of various types than you do. Furthermore, if springs behave as badly as you claim, what with all the slowing down of the music, how do you explain the great success of Vibraplane which has sold more than 5,000 units since they were introduced twenty years ago? Without even mentioning all the other brands and models of isolation devices that are available to audiophiles? Do you actually believe it's a scam? Or why the program to detect gravity waves, the program with the *most stringent requirements* for vibration control in history, orders of magnitude more stringent, employs mechanical springs in its isolation stack? I suspect what we have here is just an example of one person who, for whatever reason, was unsuccessful in implementing springs into his system. This happens all the time. This is why it's customary to take negative results of audio experiments and tests with a grain of salt. Negative results actually have little significance when you step back and look at the big picture.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
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Different drummers

Michael wrote,

"Geoff, the other point to this is, somehow you keep forgetting that I am Mr. RoomTune. Tuning rooms is not on the "IF" list for me. I'm not like you trading your in-room setup for a high end headphone setup and then trading for a Sony Walkman. I'm not and never will be the guy who jumps, I'm the guy who grows. I'm growing in knowledge of my headphone systems, my in-room systems and my recording systems. Throwing any of these aside to chase a Sony Walkman isn't my idea of moving or moving the industry forward. The Sony Walkman is a step along the way as many simple designs are and as much as I appreciate them it's not my calling to sit back in my comfy chair "as you put it" and read a book about something else. That to me is called casual listening and I am an audio designer with a little more on my plate than that. Besides even in the casual mode I still prefer hearing my in-room system in the next room over my headphones. As I have said a few times feeling the music is bigger to me than just treating the ears. I like my headphones but personally need more. If you haven't found that "more" with your in-room setups I would suggest you look into that with a little more gusto, and not just trying to convert people to a world they may not enjoy as well."

That's funny, I can almost hear the distain in your voice when you write Sony Walkman. Having owned a bunch of Room Tune stuff I can certainly understand how room tuning can become a sort of occupation unto itself. Thanks but no thanks.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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that's funny

That's funny, I've owned a bunch of RoomTune stuff too. So when you say a bunch which ones?

CornerTune
EchoTune
TuneStrip
RT Square
RT XLT
RT XXLT
Mini Corner Controller (PZC)
Mini Echo Controller
Ceiling Controller
PZC FS
DecoTune
DT Square
RTdeluxe
RTD2
RTD2 Square
AeroPlane FS
Sound Shutter

Or perhaps you had a The Tunable Room? And in that room PZC's, MGA BP/LTR Platforms with Music Play 60's sitting on top. Outside the room EQ LTR AP Platform, CD Player with Poplar Canopy (China POP Tuning rod), LTR Tuning Blocks, MGA T-Amp 25, Bare Essence & Picasso.

Nope I don't have disdain for the Sony Walkman, it's just in a little different class than what I call a reference. Sony happens to be a client of mine and uses my tunable studio as one of their references. So if Sony themselves say "most accurate recording reference we ever heard", maybe just maybe that might put my referencing maybe a tiny bit higher than the Sony Walkman.

Geoff I don't play the same games with people that you tend to do and it bugs me when you engage me as if we are comparing notes. We're not, your on a page that has a completely different agenda than myself. You say I have disdain for the Sony Walkman that you now say is your reference and I'm saying I'm not a fan of playback compression. Your Sony Walkman has an auto-limiter on it. So when you say "more dynamic" I have to question what were your setups before that a component using playback compression is more dynamic than?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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What I had

I had the Echo Tunes, the Corner Tunes, the long thingies that are placed at the vertical intersection of walls and the Michael Green Brass feet. That was about 25 years ago IIRC. I have to laugh when I see you continue to dismiss the humble and cheap little Sony Walkman cassette player. Don't you see you're behaving just like those that ridicule you? Hel-loo! I can appreciate your long years of tuning and you're have to excuse me for saying so, it's not the end all do all you present it as.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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doing

And here's your presention http://www.stereophile.com/content/may-geoffs-web-pages

8 pages on nothing. No method at all, and you wish to say that tuning is flawed. Never understanding tuning yourself according to you.

It's like this Geoff, when I am on a recording forum, or other designer forums I speak to them according to the questions they bring up. Like wise on here you bringing up a topic, I'm going to either answer or if it's been a while explore it again. This is the way I am. You have your own way of coming up with ideas and mine is by doing some listening, comparisons and research. You call this grabbing at straws but my peers call this being the most thorough designer in my camp. You and May, and maybe others (I don't know or care) paint a picture of this guy who doesn't look at all the angles, without even looking into what I do, who I do it with and why I do it. Did you ever stop to consider that these folks wouldn't give you the time of day and quite frankly don't know you guys even exist, or give a rats A**. Did you ever stop to think the only reason I deal with you is because I have to, cause you and May interupt every thread I do.

Sorry, but neither one of you would ever make it through the front door of the tech centers I work with, unless it was to take a tour. You guys are up here because you are allowed to be, and with that you make as much noise as you can, but I hope you realize there's another world out there that actually do tests. If you really cared to do your research you would see my associations and see that they are based on something more than 8 pages on Stereophile that were meant for you and May to show your stuff and you gave nothing but ramblings and pissy attitude. Your allowed to come up here, but what you have no idea of is there are organizations of people with a common purpose and having formal structures. Both of you bring up stuff and I roll my eyes. Further more the people I have mentioned your names to, either didn't know you or gave warning to stay away cause I wouldn't want to be associated with you. So, please forgive me when I see you saying me acting like those who ridicule me as a joke. The only people who ridicule me are the people who have not done or have their ego so far up their A** they haven't seen daylight in years.

I gave both you and May all the opportunity in the world to say something of use, and it's not on me if you couldn't do anything more than what you did on your own thread. It's also not on me when I begin topics and share, and you guys say totally stupid stuff like tuning is only one way. If you had any understanding you would know that tuning "IS" the science open to all ways. That's why it's tuning you imbecile. I mean really is there something wrong with your brain wiring? Have you even looked up what tuning means or is? You guys are like first graders for cryin out loud. My God, go look up tuning and quit acting like you lack in the ability to reason.

Sorry, but you and May are both acting like two old folks that are so stuck in their own spins that they have lost the ability to comprehend or learn. You talk about me as if I'm saying "being open to all the sounds" is a bad thing. What's worse is you treat tuning as if I'm sitting with one sound and claiming it to be the only sound. Are you guys deaf, tuning is the opposite. Tuning is about putting things in tune. The signal is variable, tuning is approaching the signal with a variable way to match up the codes.

I know that both of you have got to be smarter than you are acting but I also believe on this particular forum you have no desire to be apart of the community of study. Your nothing more than two old people stuck in their ways. I hate to talk like this to anyone, I really do, but you guys are on this particular forum doing more disservice to an industry and hobby than good.

Sorry but this all should be about organizing the sound, regardless of who's idea someone chooses to follow at any given time. We should be sharing avenues, based on our own skills and compare them, but you guys are so full of the need to distract vs exploring. It's not only sad to see but very very stupid.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
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Doing

>>> “If you had any understanding you would know that tuning "IS" the science open to all ways. That's why it's tuning you imbecile.” <<<

Michael, I had started my reply to you and when logging on to post my reply, I see that you have deleted your original “imbecile” comment !!! However, it DID show your basic attitude to others who might challenge you !!

If your definition of the word “Tuning” and believe that it IS the science open to all and that EVERY improvement in the sound which people can make comes under YOUR definition and use of the word ‘tuning’, then I would go along with you wholeheartedly.

But, Michael, that would mean that you would have to embrace the fact that people can make improvements by changing the colour of something, by changing the chemical mixture of something or by the use of certain chemicals, by the use of various crystals, by the use of such as the demagnetising technique and by introducing, into the listening environment, such as a device creating the Schumann Resonance.

If everything, every reported improvement in the sound could be explained by “vibrations, vibrations, vibrations and vibrations are everything and everywhere”, then there would be NO controversies in audio !!!!!!!! But, Michael, everything, every reported improvement in the sound cannot be explained by “it’s vibrations, stupid” – so, please, Michael, drop the “imbecile” name calling !!!!!

>>> “Your nothing more than two old people stuck in their ways. I hate to talk like this to anyone, I really do, but you guys are on this particular forum doing more disservice to an industry and hobby than good.” <<<

I would never describe you as ‘stuck in your ways”, Michael. In fact, I think you have discovered that everything affects everything else and everything in the listening environment affects the sound !! Yipee !!!!! Join the club.

Now, Michael, you have now to go on to attempt to explain WHY, HOW . You have to explain to Michael Fremer how demagnetising vinyl discs and CDs can give improvements in the sound, You have to explain to Greg Weaver how the UltraBit Platinum-Plus chemical can change the sound. You have to be able to explain to John Atkinson how introducing a device which creates the Schumann Resonance into the listening environment can improve the sound.

You have to be able to explain better than “it’s vibrations”.

What I DO know about the audio industry is that there are many experienced people with many questions on their shelves, awaiting answers.

Your reply to me, in an earlier response however, was that you had “Done the questions and got the answers” !!!! Really ???????????

You would not be challenged by me (nor I presume by Geoff) if you were not constantly stating that you have THE answer, or you have THE method.

Of course you can change the sound doing the things you would describe. No one is challenging your ability to change the sound – just challenging that you have THE answer and THE method.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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sorry

May

I've already answered this a couple of times on this forum and in more detail on TuneLand.

"But, Michael, that would mean that you would have to embrace the fact that people can make improvements by changing the colour of something, by changing the chemical mixture of something or by the use of certain chemicals, by the use of various crystals, by the use of such as the demagnetising technique and by introducing, into the listening environment, such as a device creating the Schumann Resonance."

I've asked you and Geoff to start threads that are specific so we can talk about stuff. But it's really a waste of my time and the readers time when you guys come up with the same questions on every thread I do. I feel like I'm baby sitting.

So if you choose to do a constructive forum interaction fine I'm all in but not this stuff.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Dead horse, bleating

Vibraplane uses air with a sophisticated pump leveling system. Their specific reasoning for not using metal or plastic springs is resonance. It must work, they use it for microscopes more than audio. The same reason magnetic levitation units also impart less of their own "sound" than metal springs on one end of the spectrum, or metal or carbon or carbon fiber cones at the other. For that matter, it's the reason Cadillac finally sat down and "perfected" the magnetic damping suspension for use on it's version of the Corvette, and licensed the unit to Mercedes.

Who's "trolling" who? You're just a jerk.

michael green
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simply amazing

Yep, Geoff is quite the character!

You know I don't really care how someone gets there or what level they are at on their own path. That's the cool thing about a hobby that is so versatile. You don't have to stop at one point of the learning curve, and every step forward is an adventure.

What I do mind though are spins, and the people that create them. This is a breed of people that do more damage than good. The sad part is for us who are involved in the "doing" of the hobby, is we know the only way anyone of us is ever going to know "is" by doing, and it is so easy to spot a person who is talking without practicing. I'm like "get out of my studio" when those people come around. Honestly it's like they're born without a heartbeat and certainly a half baked brain. And it's ok not to know something, no big deal, but listening to someone who is obviously not in the finding out game, is one of the most irritating things there can possibly be.

I'm hoping by a little calling out and me exposing more about myself as well will get these guys to chill, or at least think about doing things more orderly. Have no idea if it will work but at least I'm making the effort.

I read people talking about music who have never truly been involved in music and it makes my head hurt. If I hear one more person in this hobby claim he is a NASA scientist and therefore knows audio, I'm jumping out my window. Fortunately I only have a two story.

So strange, I've always tried to keep one foot out of this hobby because of all the non-musical weirdos. Every time I try to get closer I get this gueasy feeling and wonder what in the world am I doing here. But when I see that guy say "wow this works" it makes things worth it. I'm hoping with a little push we can turn high end audio back toward listening again.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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You say tomato
jgossman wrote:

Vibraplane uses air with a sophisticated pump leveling system. Their specific reasoning for not using metal or plastic springs is resonance. It must work, they use it for microscopes more than audio. The same reason magnetic levitation units also impart less of their own "sound" than metal springs on one end of the spectrum, or metal or carbon or carbon fiber cones at the other. For that matter, it's the reason Cadillac finally sat down and "perfected" the magnetic damping suspension for use on it's version of the Corvette, and licensed the unit to Mercedes.

Who's "trolling" who? You're just a jerk.

Cut back just a bit on the name calling, it makes you look like a thirteen year old. Air springs are, guess what, springs. Duh! They have the characteristics of springs, you know, spring rate, max load, lateral stability. Which is why the Vibraplane has a non pneumatic spring system for lateral stability and horizontal isolation. Go back and finish high school.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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all comes out in the end Geoff

Fact is Geoff, these guys who you and May keep trying to school have a little more smarts than your giving credit. I haven't seen any of them run out of gas and have to revert to posting insult pics like a first grader. I've seen several of these guys now walk all over your smarts, and are actually original in their doing it. You might be a lot louder, but the message you spin is sinking in volume with every battle you engage in.

Your now down to a Sony Walkman, and not able to list a soundstage as the requirement of great stereo listening. Where do you jump from here Geoff? More insults I would guess, cause based on your own personal listening we can all see where you are in that department.

You see Geoff, the problem with people like you is you back yourself into your own corner and have no way out as far as credibility goes. You try and succeed from time to time to bring people down to your level but that only last as long as it takes to realize we're not in the first grade with you. You've tried the pics, and the strawman, and higher ed route, but you fail to realize it's just a matter of time before you have nothing left to give but your spins, and with spins comes lies and deceit. All others have to do is use your own words to show your character at this point.

How do you wish to attack music lovers now Geoff? More pics making fun, Geoff theories that get debunked, or perhaps a spin away from the Sony Walkman. Or maybe you should tell us about how you separate other recording qualities from the soundstage. I would find that one especially very interesting from my personal experience in music.

As I said earlier, maybe people like you and May should look deeper into the people your schooling and ridiculing. You know finding out if someone is a phony or not is nothing harder than exploring what they have done or are doing. If you knew what you were doing there really wouldn't be the need for stupid pics and insult baiting would there?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Some advice

I've always suspected pro audio guys were not only pompous but can't hear. Now I'm sure of it. Here's some friendly advice, take some reading comprehension lessons, move back to Dayton where I have a sneaking suspiciont you dropped out of high school and get a freaking haircut.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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thanks

Better than your last little bit of advice.

"throw away your systems and get a Sony Walkman", "I got rid of my in-room system and blew away my high end headphone system with it"

That one sure made a dent, Geoff. Put you way up on the credibility list. We're waiting for Geoff to post his own original thread and what does he come up with "you want dynamics get a Sony Walkman, my new reference". Yep, your way up there with Wilson now boy :)

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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The truth can be a difficult cross to bear

Yes, that's true. And I gave plenty of reasons why the Earphone System outperformed. Either you're being dishonest, your friend with the cassette players is all thumbs or you're deaf. Take your pick.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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let's look at the truth

I'm glad you said again the above statement is true. I've heard you say the Sony Walkman was the reference, then wasn't and now is again, so I'm going with this from here on. Geoff's reference is the reference pictured on "you want dynamics". This is not putting words in your mouth but using your words. Your reference is a Sony Walkman cassette player wm222.

Geoff also said

"You know there is more to the music than soundstage, don't you? Besides, I already conceded soundstage superiority to speakers a long time ago, haven't you been paying attention? You're comparing the sport model to Pro model?"

Again Geoff saying in-room speakers give a "superior soundstage". This is in line with his statement on the headphone thread. I'm paying attention.

So to be stating the truth according to Geoff.

"the in-room system gave a better soundstage"

"gave up on in-room system"

"went to the high end audio CD system"

"the Sony Walkman became the reference over that setup"

The way I'm seeing it is no one has to be dishonest about anything. Your saying it's not about soundstage, your saying the Sony Walkman doesn't give a soundstage like in-room speakers do, and your saying you choose the Sony Walkman cassette player as your reference.

I don't see what the big deal is or why any of us need to go around in any more circles.

I and the other recording engineers throughout the world record in stereo to create a soundstage it's called stereo imaging. Within that soundstage is all the info on the recording. Your saying "it's not everything", and we're saying of course the recorded info is everything.

I think I can speak for the recording industry as a whole here with a great deal of "honesty". Stereo is about making a soundstage (stereo imaging). It's about creating or capturing sound for the sole purpose of recreating that recording as a soundstage picture. Your saying your not getting the whole soundstage and we're saying than your not hearing all the info on the recordings. Pretty simple math and doesn't make recording engineers as a whole "deaf" as you are also saying. This isn't us being pompous, or uneducated, deaf or dishonest.

This is an oldman coming up on an audio forum with guns blazing, thinking he can spin his way through a hobby that he doesn't know as much about as he is letting on. He's (as they all do) backed his way into his own corner and has no way out, but to act as a child posting insult pictures and attacking everyone around him using every tactic he has learned in the art of deception and tricks. Unfortunatly for him, his playground is also full of people who are not quite as dumb as he is trying to make them look, and as time rolls on, it's pretty clear that the oldman is like George Custer creating his own outcome.

You see Geoff, just because your the last one posting and the loudest on a given thread, doesn't mean that the reader is not going to take the time to go back through these threads to see if everything lines up. Your type of cutting and spins may work when talking to some one, but when you are on a forum such as this there's a paper trail and all anyone has to do after a while is repeat what you yourself have said.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Don't call names, PT 2
michael green wrote:

I'm glad you said again the above statement is true. I've heard you say the Sony Walkman was the reference, then wasn't and now is again, so I'm going with this from here on. Geoff's reference is the reference pictured on "you want dynamics". This is not putting words in your mouth but using your words. Your reference is a Sony Walkman cassette player wm222.

>>>>>>Well, actually what I really said was that the Sony Walkman cassette player had better tone, more air, and was more correct sounding than my Woo Audio and Sennheiser system. You can say it's my reference system all you want but I never said it. The Sony Walkman CD also is more correct sounding and more coherent sounding than my Woo Audio/Oppo/Sennheiser system. Using the cheap little Sony Sports Walkman Earphones. You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

Geoff also said

"You know there is more to the music than soundstage, don't you? Besides, I already conceded soundstage superiority to speakers a long time ago, haven't you been paying attention? You're comparing the sport model to Pro model?"

Again Geoff saying in-room speakers give a "superior soundstage". This is in line with his statement on the headphone thread. I'm paying attention.

>>>>>actually! you're conveniently forgetting what the whole point of my saying that was: that the headphones based system gave a purer sound, less distortion, more air, better pitch control and more coherent sound all the way around. And I also gave the reasons why this is so. You know, just in case you forgot again. Because there are no giant magnets such as in speakers to strangle the sound, there are no room anomalies to muddy the sound and distort the sound and no crossovers to distort the sound. If you have trouble with my audio terminology just ask, I'll be happen to define my terms.

So to be stating the truth according to Geoff.

"the in-room system gave a better soundstage"

"gave up on in-room system"

"went to the high end audio CD system"

"the Sony Walkman became the reference over that setup"

The way I'm seeing it is no one has to be dishonest about anything. Your saying it's not about soundstage, your saying the Sony Walkman doesn't give a soundstage like in-room speakers do, and your saying you choose the Sony Walkman cassette player as your reference.

>>>> Ooops, you're missing the whole point of what I was saying, for the umpteenth time. And that point is that headphones have MANY advantages over speaker systems. Not to mention I'm pretty sure those are NOT my actual statements. Can you provide the entire post so I see it in context. It's not that I mistrust you. Cough cough. I never use the word reference as I don't think there is any such thing. That's YOUR word, it's part of YOUR whole free-wheeling Tuning vocabulary thing.

I don't see what the big deal is or why any of us need to go around in any more circles.

>>>>>>>You are either being intentionally dense or have a lousy memory. And there you go again, speaking for everyone else.

I and the other recording engineers throughout the world record in stereo to create a soundstage it's called stereo imaging. Within that soundstage is all the info on the recording. Your saying "it's not everything", and we're saying of course the recorded info is everything.

>>>>>Yes, I am also saying the recorded information is everything. Maybe I wasn't clear, although I doubt it. I am saying the information is on the recording but audiophiles can't hear it because of all the problems I've mentioned. Things like static electrical charge and magnetic fields.

I think I can speak for the recording industry as a whole here with a great deal of "honesty". Stereo is about making a soundstage (stereo imaging). It's about creating or capturing sound for the sole purpose of recreating that recording as a soundstage picture. Your saying your not getting the whole soundstage and we're saying than your not hearing all the info on the recordings. Pretty simple math and doesn't make recording engineers as a whole "deaf" as you are also saying. This isn't us being pompous, or uneducated, deaf or dishonest.

>>>Ok, speak for everyone else, I don't care.

This is an oldman coming up on an audio forum with guns blazing, thinking he can spin his way through a hobby that he doesn't know as much about as he is letting on. He's (as they all do) backed his way into his own corner and has no way out, but to act as a child posting insult pictures and attacking everyone around him using every tactic he has learned in the art of deception and tricks. Unfortunatly for him, his playground is also full of people who are not quite as dumb as he is trying to make them look, and as time rolls on, it's pretty clear that the oldman is like George Custer creating his own outcome.

>>>>Oops, there goes Michael with the name calling again. Well, isn't that special? Michael on war path and take em scalp. Lol

You see Geoff, just because your the last one posting and the loudest on a given thread, doesn't mean that the reader is not going to take the time to go back through these threads to see if everything lines up. Your type of cutting and spins may work when talking to some one, but when you are on a forum such as this there's a paper trail and all anyone has to do after a while is repeat what you yourself have said.

>>>>Oh, I see alright. You are a hypocrite and have a convenient memory. It's actually you who's the spin doctor, not I.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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your words Geoff

Sorry Geoff

Don't need much of a memory to read. It's all right there on any of your threads as well as the threads you jump on. Also don't need to be much of a spin doctor to copy quotes.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Just as I suspected - those aren't my words

Unless you provide the context of what you quoted me as saying I assume what you quoted was YOUR recollection of what I said, not what I said. I suspect you had a memory fail again. I do not use the word REFERENCE, you do.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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