Geoff, when your in a group of guys who have some experience with certain topics, and you stick your face in front of a swinging hand your bound to get slapped.

I think people here appreciate input whether they are on the same page or not when topics are discussed with a fair amount of tact, taste and even grace. For example when almost everyone has a bathroom scale and can weigh things on their own, with and without springs your going to get in a little trouble if your saying things like the springs made the object lighter. I know that you like theories and you like painting pictures of "join me or get out", but in a hobby of doing, you can't go throwing things out there depending on someone not doing.

On a few threads you pounded on people when they said they used springs as transfer devices. "no your isolating" were your words. Fact is springs are used for a lot of different things and you need to give room for the uses that are outside of your own desire to create a theory of absolutes. If not again your going to have a lot of people who "do" and call you out on it.

You also need to realize that there are a lot of readers who are exploring the things I you and others recommend trying. If the pages are full of info and guides, experiments can be done and results can be given and these results can then be expound on. If a negative "well try this then", if a positive "here's the next step". This is how moving forward works. All the side track filler is what keeps the wheels from turning. This is also why I keep going back and give quotes on the things you say. It seems sometimes your saying them for other reasons than wanting the truth to be explored and experienced. The truth doesn't need you or me to draw lines in the sand. The truth is found by you making a path for others to follow in. If they find the same results that's part of the truth, but truth from that moment on moves forward and developes into even greater truths. Myth is what a truth could be according to what might have been in a pretend world, or a world based on soley theories. Truth is a corner stone to build on, not a thought pushed by only part of the story.

Two ways to look at exploring. You can look at the "wholes" or you can look at the "holes".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

When we look back on dicussions about the room, I think we have covered how I feel about the room and how you feel Geoff.

For you it was an unsucessful venture, for me it's the land of plenty. You see the room as chaos to get rid of, and I see it as the land of opportunity. You see it as something you gave up on 7 years ago, and I see it as something that has brought me even closer to music over the past 7 years. You see this hobby as limited to the ears, I see it as involving the entire body. You see the room as something you don't want to mess with, I see it as the greatest gift to listening.

Geoff, the other point to this is, somehow you keep forgetting that I am Mr. RoomTune. Tuning rooms is not on the "IF" list for me. I'm not like you trading your in-room setup for a high end headphone setup and then trading for a Sony Walkman. I'm not and never will be the guy who jumps, I'm the guy who grows. I'm growing in knowledge of my headphone systems, my in-room systems and my recording systems. Throwing any of these aside to chase a Sony Walkman isn't my idea of moving or moving the industry forward. The Sony Walkman is a step along the way as many simple designs are and as much as I appreciate them it's not my calling to sit back in my comfy chair "as you put it" and read a book about something else. That to me is called casual listening and I am an audio designer with a little more on my plate than that. Besides even in the casual mode I still prefer hearing my in-room system in the next room over my headphones. As I have said a few times feeling the music is bigger to me than just treating the ears. I like my headphones but personally need more. If you haven't found that "more" with your in-room setups I would suggest you look into that with a little more gusto, and not just trying to convert people to a world they may not enjoy as well.

If you have to listen to headphones to get the detail, I can tell you my friend you should not be selling acoustical treatments, cause you have not yet heard a room. You also shouldn't be talking book-talk about rooms cause you have without a doubt not learned the positives of this incredible natural amplifier.

I sometimes have to smile when someone like you and other audiophile designers are talking room talk. Reminds me of when Art Noxon came to RoomTune to offer me a job :). Kinda cute, but I grew up in the studios, the halls and the playback rooms. I'm not interested in killing the sound, or breaking it up in little pieces. The name is RoomTune, Mr. Geoff, not OMG I better start listening to headphones only cause I can't figure out my room.

Geoff, there's a reason why it is called RoomTune. It's not called trap, or diffuse, reflect, or dampen, or comb filter exorcist, or even wishful thinker. I tune rooms. I've tuned them since I was 15, it's what I do. It's not a cool name that I used to sell audiophile pillows. It's part of a method of listening that allows the listener to put "in-tune" their system. On the hall end, recording and playback. Packing this up and trading it for a Sony Walkman is not exactly what the doctor ordered for me.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

That's funny, I've owned a bunch of RoomTune stuff too. So when you say a bunch which ones?

CornerTune
EchoTune
TuneStrip
RT Square
RT XLT
RT XXLT
Mini Corner Controller (PZC)
Mini Echo Controller
Ceiling Controller
PZC FS
DecoTune
DT Square
RTdeluxe
RTD2
RTD2 Square
AeroPlane FS
Sound Shutter

Or perhaps you had a The Tunable Room? And in that room PZC's, MGA BP/LTR Platforms with Music Play 60's sitting on top. Outside the room EQ LTR AP Platform, CD Player with Poplar Canopy (China POP Tuning rod), LTR Tuning Blocks, MGA T-Amp 25, Bare Essence & Picasso.

Nope I don't have disdain for the Sony Walkman, it's just in a little different class than what I call a reference. Sony happens to be a client of mine and uses my tunable studio as one of their references. So if Sony themselves say "most accurate recording reference we ever heard", maybe just maybe that might put my referencing maybe a tiny bit higher than the Sony Walkman.

Geoff I don't play the same games with people that you tend to do and it bugs me when you engage me as if we are comparing notes. We're not, your on a page that has a completely different agenda than myself. You say I have disdain for the Sony Walkman that you now say is your reference and I'm saying I'm not a fan of playback compression. Your Sony Walkman has an auto-limiter on it. So when you say "more dynamic" I have to question what were your setups before that a component using playback compression is more dynamic than?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

And here's your presention http://www.stereophile.com/content/may-geoffs-web-pages

8 pages on nothing. No method at all, and you wish to say that tuning is flawed. Never understanding tuning yourself according to you.

It's like this Geoff, when I am on a recording forum, or other designer forums I speak to them according to the questions they bring up. Like wise on here you bringing up a topic, I'm going to either answer or if it's been a while explore it again. This is the way I am. You have your own way of coming up with ideas and mine is by doing some listening, comparisons and research. You call this grabbing at straws but my peers call this being the most thorough designer in my camp. You and May, and maybe others (I don't know or care) paint a picture of this guy who doesn't look at all the angles, without even looking into what I do, who I do it with and why I do it. Did you ever stop to consider that these folks wouldn't give you the time of day and quite frankly don't know you guys even exist, or give a rats A**. Did you ever stop to think the only reason I deal with you is because I have to, cause you and May interupt every thread I do.

Sorry, but neither one of you would ever make it through the front door of the tech centers I work with, unless it was to take a tour. You guys are up here because you are allowed to be, and with that you make as much noise as you can, but I hope you realize there's another world out there that actually do tests. If you really cared to do your research you would see my associations and see that they are based on something more than 8 pages on Stereophile that were meant for you and May to show your stuff and you gave nothing but ramblings and pissy attitude. Your allowed to come up here, but what you have no idea of is there are organizations of people with a common purpose and having formal structures. Both of you bring up stuff and I roll my eyes. Further more the people I have mentioned your names to, either didn't know you or gave warning to stay away cause I wouldn't want to be associated with you. So, please forgive me when I see you saying me acting like those who ridicule me as a joke. The only people who ridicule me are the people who have not done or have their ego so far up their A** they haven't seen daylight in years.

I gave both you and May all the opportunity in the world to say something of use, and it's not on me if you couldn't do anything more than what you did on your own thread. It's also not on me when I begin topics and share, and you guys say totally stupid stuff like tuning is only one way. If you had any understanding you would know that tuning "IS" the science open to all ways. That's why it's tuning you imbecile. I mean really is there something wrong with your brain wiring? Have you even looked up what tuning means or is? You guys are like first graders for cryin out loud. My God, go look up tuning and quit acting like you lack in the ability to reason.

Sorry, but you and May are both acting like two old folks that are so stuck in their own spins that they have lost the ability to comprehend or learn. You talk about me as if I'm saying "being open to all the sounds" is a bad thing. What's worse is you treat tuning as if I'm sitting with one sound and claiming it to be the only sound. Are you guys deaf, tuning is the opposite. Tuning is about putting things in tune. The signal is variable, tuning is approaching the signal with a variable way to match up the codes.

I know that both of you have got to be smarter than you are acting but I also believe on this particular forum you have no desire to be apart of the community of study. Your nothing more than two old people stuck in their ways. I hate to talk like this to anyone, I really do, but you guys are on this particular forum doing more disservice to an industry and hobby than good.

Sorry but this all should be about organizing the sound, regardless of who's idea someone chooses to follow at any given time. We should be sharing avenues, based on our own skills and compare them, but you guys are so full of the need to distract vs exploring. It's not only sad to see but very very stupid.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May

I've already answered this a couple of times on this forum and in more detail on TuneLand.

"But, Michael, that would mean that you would have to embrace the fact that people can make improvements by changing the colour of something, by changing the chemical mixture of something or by the use of certain chemicals, by the use of various crystals, by the use of such as the demagnetising technique and by introducing, into the listening environment, such as a device creating the Schumann Resonance."

I've asked you and Geoff to start threads that are specific so we can talk about stuff. But it's really a waste of my time and the readers time when you guys come up with the same questions on every thread I do. I feel like I'm baby sitting.

So if you choose to do a constructive forum interaction fine I'm all in but not this stuff.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Yep, Geoff is quite the character!

You know I don't really care how someone gets there or what level they are at on their own path. That's the cool thing about a hobby that is so versatile. You don't have to stop at one point of the learning curve, and every step forward is an adventure.

What I do mind though are spins, and the people that create them. This is a breed of people that do more damage than good. The sad part is for us who are involved in the "doing" of the hobby, is we know the only way anyone of us is ever going to know "is" by doing, and it is so easy to spot a person who is talking without practicing. I'm like "get out of my studio" when those people come around. Honestly it's like they're born without a heartbeat and certainly a half baked brain. And it's ok not to know something, no big deal, but listening to someone who is obviously not in the finding out game, is one of the most irritating things there can possibly be.

I'm hoping by a little calling out and me exposing more about myself as well will get these guys to chill, or at least think about doing things more orderly. Have no idea if it will work but at least I'm making the effort.

I read people talking about music who have never truly been involved in music and it makes my head hurt. If I hear one more person in this hobby claim he is a NASA scientist and therefore knows audio, I'm jumping out my window. Fortunately I only have a two story.

So strange, I've always tried to keep one foot out of this hobby because of all the non-musical weirdos. Every time I try to get closer I get this gueasy feeling and wonder what in the world am I doing here. But when I see that guy say "wow this works" it makes things worth it. I'm hoping with a little push we can turn high end audio back toward listening again.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Fact is Geoff, these guys who you and May keep trying to school have a little more smarts than your giving credit. I haven't seen any of them run out of gas and have to revert to posting insult pics like a first grader. I've seen several of these guys now walk all over your smarts, and are actually original in their doing it. You might be a lot louder, but the message you spin is sinking in volume with every battle you engage in.

Your now down to a Sony Walkman, and not able to list a soundstage as the requirement of great stereo listening. Where do you jump from here Geoff? More insults I would guess, cause based on your own personal listening we can all see where you are in that department.

You see Geoff, the problem with people like you is you back yourself into your own corner and have no way out as far as credibility goes. You try and succeed from time to time to bring people down to your level but that only last as long as it takes to realize we're not in the first grade with you. You've tried the pics, and the strawman, and higher ed route, but you fail to realize it's just a matter of time before you have nothing left to give but your spins, and with spins comes lies and deceit. All others have to do is use your own words to show your character at this point.

How do you wish to attack music lovers now Geoff? More pics making fun, Geoff theories that get debunked, or perhaps a spin away from the Sony Walkman. Or maybe you should tell us about how you separate other recording qualities from the soundstage. I would find that one especially very interesting from my personal experience in music.

As I said earlier, maybe people like you and May should look deeper into the people your schooling and ridiculing. You know finding out if someone is a phony or not is nothing harder than exploring what they have done or are doing. If you knew what you were doing there really wouldn't be the need for stupid pics and insult baiting would there?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Better than your last little bit of advice.

"throw away your systems and get a Sony Walkman", "I got rid of my in-room system and blew away my high end headphone system with it"

That one sure made a dent, Geoff. Put you way up on the credibility list. We're waiting for Geoff to post his own original thread and what does he come up with "you want dynamics get a Sony Walkman, my new reference". Yep, your way up there with Wilson now boy :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I'm glad you said again the above statement is true. I've heard you say the Sony Walkman was the reference, then wasn't and now is again, so I'm going with this from here on. Geoff's reference is the reference pictured on "you want dynamics". This is not putting words in your mouth but using your words. Your reference is a Sony Walkman cassette player wm222.

Geoff also said

"You know there is more to the music than soundstage, don't you? Besides, I already conceded soundstage superiority to speakers a long time ago, haven't you been paying attention? You're comparing the sport model to Pro model?"

Again Geoff saying in-room speakers give a "superior soundstage". This is in line with his statement on the headphone thread. I'm paying attention.

So to be stating the truth according to Geoff.

"the in-room system gave a better soundstage"

"gave up on in-room system"

"went to the high end audio CD system"

"the Sony Walkman became the reference over that setup"

The way I'm seeing it is no one has to be dishonest about anything. Your saying it's not about soundstage, your saying the Sony Walkman doesn't give a soundstage like in-room speakers do, and your saying you choose the Sony Walkman cassette player as your reference.

I don't see what the big deal is or why any of us need to go around in any more circles.

I and the other recording engineers throughout the world record in stereo to create a soundstage it's called stereo imaging. Within that soundstage is all the info on the recording. Your saying "it's not everything", and we're saying of course the recorded info is everything.

I think I can speak for the recording industry as a whole here with a great deal of "honesty". Stereo is about making a soundstage (stereo imaging). It's about creating or capturing sound for the sole purpose of recreating that recording as a soundstage picture. Your saying your not getting the whole soundstage and we're saying than your not hearing all the info on the recordings. Pretty simple math and doesn't make recording engineers as a whole "deaf" as you are also saying. This isn't us being pompous, or uneducated, deaf or dishonest.

This is an oldman coming up on an audio forum with guns blazing, thinking he can spin his way through a hobby that he doesn't know as much about as he is letting on. He's (as they all do) backed his way into his own corner and has no way out, but to act as a child posting insult pictures and attacking everyone around him using every tactic he has learned in the art of deception and tricks. Unfortunatly for him, his playground is also full of people who are not quite as dumb as he is trying to make them look, and as time rolls on, it's pretty clear that the oldman is like George Custer creating his own outcome.

You see Geoff, just because your the last one posting and the loudest on a given thread, doesn't mean that the reader is not going to take the time to go back through these threads to see if everything lines up. Your type of cutting and spins may work when talking to some one, but when you are on a forum such as this there's a paper trail and all anyone has to do after a while is repeat what you yourself have said.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Sorry Geoff

Don't need much of a memory to read. It's all right there on any of your threads as well as the threads you jump on. Also don't need to be much of a spin doctor to copy quotes.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/