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ncdrawl
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what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...
JIMV
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Whoaaaa!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Looks like shit from Parts Express. Why did this guy buy this particular amp? Has the magazine reviewed anything from this manufacturer?

Oh, no big deal...

Warranty: the Maestro comes with a 7 year warranty covering parts and labor.

bifcake
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Muahahahahhaha Wow!!! If DUP could only see this! Holy moly! $16k for a Chinese kit! Talk about being bamboozled!

Stephen Scharf
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

There's also a loose capacitor rolling around in there.

bifcake
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

I wonder how long it's going to be before someone puts a cap in this guy's head.

Stephen Scharf
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

The reason the guy took the cover off in the first place was because he wanted to find out what was loose and rolling around in his expensive amp. It was the cap. That's when he found the wall warts. In a review of a Single Power headphone amp in Six Moons, the reviewer mentions that SP requests not showing photos the interior of the headphone amp as it is "proprietary". It's likely because they didn't want the reviewer to find something like this inside. Apparently, there was a similar discovery and outrage in 2003, when Single Power demanded the photos from the forum be pulled due to it being "proprietary". I can see how a circuit topology can be proprietary, but not a photo of an assemblage of components. Furthermore, you can't
"demand" that folks can't publish photographs of things they own, unless they sign a EULA not to show the reverse engineering of something. I don't think taking a cover off a component and showing what is inside comprises reverse engineering; in this case, it just shows the customer is being taken.

JIMV
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Did he ever say which dealer he bought this from? I would expect the dealer to be furious with his supplier over this.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
Did he ever say which dealer he bought this from? I would expect the dealer to be furious with his supplier over this.

Wouldn't the dealer's supplier be the manufacturer?

Now, this is an amazing story we got here. Guy buys very expensive equipment. It turns out to nothing but junk hacked together inside.
Why did guy buy this particular equipment? I mean, this is a serious rip-off here.

Company gets a good review here but there is nothing I can tell about looking inside.

http://www.soundstage.com/allinyourhead/allinyourhead200410.htm

This is sort of like spending $16 grand on a car and never looking under the hood of at least one of them.

Motives abound. Bad economy forces Russian mob to rip people off? No, that won't work.

Don't Stereophile have investigative reporters?

Maybe they can write a story on this. You know,
to protect the industry and all.

I think it is a great idea for a story.

Stephen Scharf
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
Did he ever say which dealer he bought this from? I would expect the dealer to be furious with his supplier over this.

My understanding from reading some of the (greater than 75 page) thread is that it was purchased directly from the manufacturer.

JIMV
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Thanks, let the buyer beware...at least he is hitting back..

ncdrawl
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
Did he ever say which dealer he bought this from? I would expect the dealer to be furious with his supplier over this.

he bought direct...after waiting 6 months(it was held hostage for payment)

ethanwiner
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


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look about halfway down... jaysus!


LOL! As I always say, the more expensive the amp, the more likely it's crap.

--Ethan

ncdrawl
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=53100.0

happens all over.

Buddha
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Why are we not focusing on how it sounds?

tomjtx
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

SinglePower has been under fire at head-fi for a long time.

There is a moderators thread warning people about it.

Mikhail (he is SinglePower) apparently owes a lot of money to a lot of people.
It is amazing he hasn't been put out of business yet.

I view SinglePower as the end result of audiophilia run amok

What is amazing is that there are still SinglePower defenders out there.

My Chinese headphone amp has much better build and parts quality and was 800.00.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
In a review of a Single Power headphone amp in Six Moons, the reviewer mentions that SP requests not showing photos the interior of the headphone amp as it is "proprietary".

That is a patently unacceptable request. I recall similar requests for two products I reviewed which only provoked me to open them up.

Kal

judicata
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
That is a patently unacceptable request. I recall similar requests for two products I reviewed which only provoked me to open them up.

Kal

I presume what you found was not two "wall warts" in a nice chassis?

JIMV
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

It 'sounds' like the $500 amp it is, not the $16,000 amp it purports to be.

Buddha
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


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It 'sounds' like the $500 amp it is, not the $16,000 amp it purports to be.

But maybe those parts were treated with special sauce!

That can be 'spensive!

Kal Rubinson
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:

Quote:
That is a patently unacceptable request. I recall similar requests for two products I reviewed which only provoked me to open them up.

Kal

I presume what you found was not two "wall warts" in a nice chassis?

Nope. In one case (literally), I found a really impressive array of high quality parts and well designed layout in an obsessively well shielded enclosure. In the other, I found a small potted module that took up less than .04 of the available enclosure volume. Both were reported in print and both products performed well.

Kal

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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
This is sort of like spending $16 grand on a car and never looking under the hood of at least one of them....Don't Stereophile have investigative reporters?

It is crap like this that helped lead to our introducing our 5 dealer rule: www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/307awsi. Good dealers protect consumers from these kind of ripoffs, or should do.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:

Quote:
In a review of a Single Power headphone amp in Six Moons, the reviewer mentions that SP requests not showing photos the interior of the headphone amp as it is "proprietary".

That is a patently unacceptable request. I recall similar requests for two products I reviewed which only provoked me to open them up.

I look under the hood of every product that comes ot my lab for measurement. See, for example, my photo of the interior of the $350k Wavac power amp at www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index2.html . We do not honor requests not to look inside products we are sent for review.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Kal Rubinson
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


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We do not honor requests not to look inside products we are sent for review.

I don't know about you but I take such a request as a provocation.

Kal

Stephen Scharf
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:

Quote:
It 'sounds' like the $500 amp it is, not the $16,000 amp it purports to be.

But maybe those parts were treated with special sauce!

That can be 'spensive!

Not special sauce, magic morphing creme.

bifcake
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

I wonder how much of the other high end stuff is crap like that? How many of us can really understand the circuitry by looking at it to discern whether something is based on a well established design and is just a rehashing of the same old thing at an astronomical price? What makes a Krell a $50k amp? Are they at the forefront of amplifier design? Are they coming up with new patents and new circuitry and new designs or are they rehashing the same Crown power amp design and just slapping their moniker on it? What about Levinson components? What is so revolutionary about them? Yes, the wiring is neater, it looks like it's professionally made, but is it really revolutionary? Is it really something special or are we just lead to believe that?

I'm genuinely interested in the answers. I'm not trying to pick on Krell or Levinson, but I am genuinely curious. What makes astronomically priced products stand above pro equipment? Please don't tell me it's the sound. I'm asking from an objective/engineering point of view.

mrlowry
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Alex-

If you call them and ask I'm sure they will be glad to provide answers. I'm not being sarcastic by the way most high end manufacturers are much more accessible than you'd think. If you are seriously considering a product you'll find people willing to spend time with you and answer their questions. I'm not sure I'd recommend it with respect to Krell as Mr. D'Agostino can come off a bit brusk. I've called Ayre and Charlie Hansen has answered late on a Friday before a 3 day weekend because he sent everyone home early. Paul McGowan of PS Audio is also very personable. Nelson Pass is famous for frequenting DIY forums and freely giving advice. Even if you don't end up talking to the designer the head of service many time is nearly as knowledgeable.

I couldn't find any evidence of Stereophile reviewing any products from SinglePower. I'm confident that if JA saw something like this greet him when he removed the top cover he'd be the first one to blow the whistle very loud. For a short time I ran the service facility for a small high-end store and I've opened many, many times the number of components than most people and I can assure everyone that this is very much an anomaly. One of the advantages of dealing with established high end companies is it all but precludes thing similar to this from happening. Buying the flavor of the month boutique stuff built by two idiots in a garage a risky venture and always will be. It really makes me sick to think someone was taken advantage in such a way.

bifcake
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

I remember seeing a picture of JA at a head-fi meet listening to one of very high priced Singlepower amps. If memory serves, the caption read that he was very impressed with the sound quality. Was that the same amp featured in this thread?

As far as talking to the manufacturers, I would prefer an unbiased opinion from a disinterested party to tell me about the engineering aspects in layman's terms. What is it about high end components that makes them worth getting from an engineering standpoint? How is it that they are any better than the pro-audio electronics? Don't pros demand the same type of high fidelity in recording?

You don't hear about these types of things happening in pro audio circles. It seems to me that pro components are more based on sanity. Am I missing something here?

Another thing is that so far, I have been very impressed by the pro audio electronics I have heard. I really liked DUP's Tascam recorder/player. I like the M-Audio DAC/headphone amp that I got and I liked the Meitner DCC2 DAC that DUP bought. What kinds of sanity checks do pro's have that we're lacking in audiophile circles? Is it possible to incorporate these same sanity checks into our world?

JSBach
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


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What kinds of sanity checks do pro's have that we're lacking in audiophile circles? Is it possible to incorporate these same sanity checks into our world?


Possibly, but analyzing the circuitry of high-end amps isn't the place to start oddly enough. Analyzing high-end manufactures peculiar addiction to employing expensive and technically illiterate advertising agencies is.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


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What kinds of sanity checks do pro's have that we're lacking in audiophile circles? Is it possible to incorporate these same sanity checks into our world?

Well, pros value small size and efficiency which makes them less vulnerable to appearance things like large/heavy chassis bristling with heatsinks and 1/4"+ front panels.

Kal

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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


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I remember seeing a picture of JA at a head-fi meet listening to one of very high priced Singlepower amps.

See http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/311. The amplifier in question is pictured in this photo, taken at the 2006 Head-Fi Meet.


Quote:
If memory serves, the caption read that he was very impressed with the sound quality. Was that the same amp featured in this thread?

I didn't make any mention of the sound. Jeff Wong did write that the amplifier was "ridiculously massive." And now we know why.

Wes Phillips and I also listened to a tube amplifier from Single Power: see http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/286 and http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/312. Wes did report that he was impressed by the sound of this tube design, using an Sennheiser Orpheus headset. However, this was not the amplifier in question and all Wes was reporting on was the amplifier's sound, not its build quality. It is not usual to ask to see inside products being demmed at Shows without being invited. Nevertheless, many of the designers at the Head-Fi Meet did allow you to look inside their creations. See, for example, http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/292. Single Power was not one of those, however.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

RGibran
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:
Analyzing high-end manufactures peculiar addiction to employing expensive and technically illiterate advertising agencies is.

Well said. Take a look at what Scull Communications can do for a manufacturer. Someone has to pay for these services.

RG

Lamont Sanford
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Bunny: I told the padre the truth, man: I like it here. You get to do what you want. Nobody fucks with you. The only worry you got is dyin', and if that happens you won't know about it anyway. So what the fuck, man?

GrantFidelity
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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...


Quote:

Quote:
What kinds of sanity checks do pro's have that we're lacking in audiophile circles? Is it possible to incorporate these same sanity checks into our world?

Well, pros value small size and efficiency which makes them less vulnerable to appearance things like large/heavy chassis bristling with heatsinks and 1/4"+ front panels.

Kal

And they also like making 'wall warts' disappear, which in this case (no pun itended) the amp has achieved that goal

Cheers,
Ian

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Re: what one guy found inside his 16,000 dollar amp...

Thankfully these things don't happen often.

Like the one bad pixel out a million on an LCD screen, or the one man marching out of step in a large group, we see the difference and note it's strong contrast.

Remember, a good 99% of the industry behaves itself, in the long term. The garbage gets blown out of the system pretty fast, overall. The sad part is about the few who get taken for a ride.

So it's nice and good to note this issue, but one must have some balance of some sort. Life should not be a rugby pile-on.

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