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Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Monty - You have to understand that to an Italian, there is no "nerding out" about pasta. Pasta is life. It is another example of the simplest things making something far more than the parts suggest. Semolina flour and water in the case of dry pasta. Flour, eggs and a bit of olive oil in the case of fresh pasta. You can't get much simpler than that and that is why the sauce or gravy has to be balanced to the noodle. Every noodle has its own appropriate sauce. The wrong sauce with the wrong noodle and you end up out of balance. Yes, it's a comparison that works with many things in life. The simpler, the better; balance always.

CECE
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Hopefully you cooked it all on a "PASTAPHILE" grade stove with "PASTAPHILE" utensils. What kind of upgrades do you have , maybe a PASTAPHILE grade ignition for the stove? Of course you know you cannot cook on an electric, it needs to be gas. Electric changes the taste, the heat is just not the same as GAS. Gas has a more full even rounded heat while electric burners are too slow, kinda dull the oregano, PASTA grade GAS.. Make sure you have PASTAPHILE fittings on those gas lines. PASTAPHILE. What kind of pipe threads are in your gas lines? There is differetn tastes associated with differet thread pitch. The length of teh flexible connector affects the taste also. PASTAPHILE gas line extension must be used, they go for about $500/foot. When standard grade for about 18" is like $20. But those with taste buds can taste the difference. The flex line is not the end of miles of gas line delivery, but the FIRST to the stove..hmmmm, think about the ANALogy!!!!

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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:

Monty - You have to understand that to an Italian, there is no "nerding out" about pasta. Pasta is life. It is another example of the simplest things making something far more than the parts suggest. Semolina flour and water in the case of dry pasta. Flour, eggs and a bit of olive oil in the case of fresh pasta. You can't get much simpler than that and that is why the sauce or gravy has to be balanced to the noodle. Every noodle has its own appropriate sauce. The wrong sauce with the wrong noodle and you end up out of balance. Yes, it's a comparison that works with many things in life. The simpler, the better; balance always.

Let's not forget beer.

Water, grain, yeast, hops.

Liquid pasta, as it were.

Monty
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Oh, well, now beer, that's different. And bourbon, everybody knows God drinks bourbon...and it just has to be done right. There is a special place in Hell just for people who screw up the divine blessings of bourbon.

Here's an interesting factoid. Did you know that charred oak for bourbon was developed by accident? Yeah, some guy had his warehouse catch on fire and some of the barrels got charred. Rather than toss the barrels, he tried to scrape them clean and used them...only to find out that the bourbon cured in the charred barrels was incredible.

True, dat.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Well, to an Italian, if pasta is life then an alchoholic beverage is the reason for life. Though most Italians I know consider beer a way to quench your thirst. I would venture a guess that many prefer an alchoholic beverage with a fermentation period longer than last Wednesday.

Buddha
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:

Well, to an Italian, if pasta is life then an alchoholic beverage is the reason for life. Though most Italians I know consider beer a way to quench your thirst. I would venture a guess that many prefer an alchoholic beverage with a fermentation period longer than last Wednesday.

Are you criticizing a type of alcohol?

What the Hell?

Alcohol loves you, yeast gives its life for you, and this is the thanks it gets?

Man, and I thought you were my friend.

Clifton, hold me.

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Yes, mono recordings can have plenty of space and ambience -- in my experience, they usually don't. The two jazz albums I mentioned are fine, but (as per the thread) my "reference" is a full symphony orchestra, and mono just doesn't cut it. There is certainly no "mono," "stereo," or even "multi" at a live concert. The above are simply contrivances attempting to create the illusion of "live" in your home. And it is an illusion. I simply find the illusion of mono lacking in my own experiences with home music, that's all. You never heard one, two, or even 9.1 speakers at a live concert, either. That's why disappearing speakers are so high among my system priorities. If my attention is directed to sound emanating from one, two, or more speakers, rather than to music filling the room, then I deem the system inadequate. Even modestly priced systems can achieve this, if they are carefully assembled and accomodated properly to the demands of the room. So what's the big deal? Kant articulated the obvious -- we are trapped in space and time. No one has proved him wrong on this particular point. Music takes place in space and time. To state that space, somehow, isn't an important issue seems wrong-headed, to me. Whatever. Time for football and beer. Jan, tell your wine-snob Italian friends to go fry a meatball. Cheers, all.

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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

If overcooked pasta and bland red "gravy" are your style you should just eat Franco American.

JoeE SP9
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

My ESL's disappear so well lots of my guests don't know they're speakers until I point out where the sound is coming from.

Monty
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
If overcooked pasta and bland red "gravy" are your style you should just eat Franco American.


What, and give up my Sonic bacon double cheeseburgers? I must confess, I'm not a food guy, my wife can't cook and I survive on pizza and peanut M&Ms.

I have one of those metabolisms that really piss off the calorie counters.

JoeE SP9
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

I had 2 double cheeseburgers for breakfast this morning. I was feeling lazy so they came from Burger King. The fries were from Checkers. They have the best fries in the fast food business IMHO. The whole thing was washed down by a couple of Pilsner Urquell's. I'm a batchelor but that's no reason not to eat well. I don't always have a fast food breakfast. I cook and make my own red gravy from scratch. Preparing competently cooked food is not any more difficult than cooking badly. Plus, it's a whole hell of a lot more tasty and rewarding. Pasta is easy. Boil for 8 minutes or so and you get aldente (barely not crunchy).
Prego isn't bad but Aunt Millie's is better. All of them need spicing up. They never have enough garlic.
I'm 58yo 5'9" and weigh 156lbs. Calorie counters don't hate!

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Fry a meatball????!!!! Yeeeeeewwwwwww!!!!!!

OK, now we're getting to the heart of the problem. Anyone who fries a meatball is a barbarian! Meatballs are browned and then braised. Braised and then the drippings are used in the gravy. Clifton, if you don't put it together right, no wonder you don't like marinara or mono. Sir, if I hadn't left the church decades ago, I would pray for you tonight.

Buddha
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Mmmm, Pilsner Urquell.

You like Spaten or Brand (beer from Holland)?

Tonight was Yukon potatoes oven "fried" in olive oil, some New York strip steaks, raddichio and green leaf slad with blood orange and poppy seed dressing, some Chandon for Big Mike's birthday, some Esprit du Rhone, and Buddha-fied cake.

I can't eat the cake, but I like making it - kinda like being a married guy walking around at the beach.

You know, we need some sort of Stereophile convention where we can all hook up and hang out in person.

Big Mike and I would be happy to host a party during CES.

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
You never heard one, two, or even 9.1 speakers at a live concert, either.

Well, surely I have. I can't imagine a live rock concert without as many speakers as they can haul up on the truss. I thought that was the actual question of the thread until cylclebrain said it wasn't. Live and learn.

.

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

That's not "live."

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Ungh. Hwhuff, hwuff. Ooooogh. Braaaze? Nung.

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Urp.

Jeff Wong
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


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Hopefully you cooked it all on a "PASTAPHILE" grade stove with "PASTAPHILE" utensils. What kind of upgrades do you have , maybe a PASTAPHILE grade ignition for the stove? Of course you know you cannot cook on an electric, it needs to be gas. Electric changes the taste, the heat is just not the same as GAS. Gas has a more full even rounded heat while electric burners are too slow, kinda dull the oregano, PASTA grade GAS.. Make sure you have PASTAPHILE fittings on those gas lines. PASTAPHILE. What kind of pipe threads are in your gas lines? There is differetn tastes associated with differet thread pitch. The length of teh flexible connector affects the taste also. PASTAPHILE gas line extension must be used, they go for about $500/foot. When standard grade for about 18" is like $20. But those with taste buds can taste the difference. The flex line is not the end of miles of gas line delivery, but the FIRST to the stove..hmmmm, think about the ANALogy!!!!

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


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That's not "live."

It's not? Why not? There are some people up on stage who would probably be very disappointed to know they weren't "live" not to mention the folks in the audience who paid $75 to hear their favorite group play "live".

What makes it "live" and "not live"?

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Very good, Jeff.

RGibran
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

What a talent. Fabulous Jeff!

RG

JoeE SP9
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Where/when can I subscribe?

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

It is certainly "live" visually -- they're jumpin' around up there on the stage, and you can see it all tolerably well, depending upon your vantage point. But it is not "live" aurally. You are hearing the PA system, not the unamplified acoustics of the instruments.

Check the thread. Your reference for "good" sound. If your reference is somebody else's electronics, I certainly have no problem with it. Mine isn't. It is neither superior nor inferior to yours. If your sonic ideal is to re-create a rock concert in your listening room, you will be led toward systems that capture that memory -- I would recommend Altec, Cerwin-Vega, or even Klipschorns. The amp and source components would be relatively unimportant, due to the easy loads and high efficiency presented by the speakers.

Now, I understand that there is some amplified reinforcement at some symphonic concerts. But the ratios would be closer to 98%/2%, live-to-amplified, at the symphony concert, and the reverse at a rock concert. Some concerts given by small ensembles in smaller venues are, of course, 100% live.

You are forgetting your unities, Jan. Marinara sauce, boiled meat, and what-all -- these are entertaining and witty diversions, but shed no light on the idea of maintaining a reference. Should I tell a newbie who asks me about what to listen for to be sure the meat is boiled, not fried, or to go eat some pasta and gravy? Or should I tell him I prefer the memory of the "live" concert experience, and suggest he attend BOTH amplified (rock concerts) and relatively unamplified (symphonic) concerts?

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
But it is not "live" aurally.

Ahhhh, damn those semantics. They get in the way of clear writing and communication every time. I sense disdain in your words for anything other than "appropriate" music, Clifton. I would then assume you see nothing that can be taken away from the experience of attending a "live" performance where amplification is involved. I would have to disagree with that position also, Clifton, assuming that is what you meant to imply. I have attended many live concerts where not a single "aurally" live instrument or voice could be heard. Everything came through amplification and speaker stacks. And I came away with a better sense of what makes live music vastly different than an audio system in my home. I see no purpose in telling a "newbie" he must sit through Chopin in order to understand how Beck should sound. If you have any clarification regarding that match up, I would appreciate hearing your side of the story. My side goes back to whatever qualities exist in any music, not just in "appropriate" music. PRaT being foremost amongst those qualities. That reference does not automatically lead me to high efficiency speakers and puny amplifiers. Loud is not the only quality I enjoy, Clifton. As a matter of fact, I seldom come close to stressing my system. No, my reference for good sound is more complicated that that.

Should you tell the newbie about pasta and the meaning of life? I rather you not, since you don't seem to get the connection. Might someone explain pasta and the meaning of life to a newbie in a way that furthers his understanding of music and Hifi? Well, it seems to have struck a chord in several people here. So, I guess it's not a bad idea.

By the way, Clifton, happy birthday. You seem to resent something I said. I assure you, I had no intentions other than to explain excellent marinara and the value of garlic in its composition. Which, by the way, I fixed last night and found it delicious. I'm sorry you don't share my passion for a simple dish. But I understand there are some people who prefer five meat lasagnes.

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

If you sense disdain in my comments on individual musical tastes, you sense wrongly. There is nothing I have said that covertly suggests or overtly states I regard my tastes in music, or anyone else's, to be superior or inferior. I have enjoyed all types of music, in all situations. I have probably attended more rock concerts than you have heard of, simply because I've had more years on the planet. There is nothing "semantic" (I assume you mean the term in its nit-picking sense) about my distinction between visually and aurally "live." At rock concerts, you hear electronically processed music, but see people in the flesh. I have heard/seen the same combination at concerts featuring the music of Berio and Schuller, among others, and their experiments with "electronic" music. There are no absolute standards for taste in any of the arts. The question of value is individual. I have laid mine out as clearly as possible. I don't understand why you want to club these issues into a fine powder. I value live symphonic music as my reference, and my only access to it is via my memories of the last concert I have attended. And, yes, those memories are spatial and temporal. Give it a rest, already.

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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Pastaphile! My God, you're good, Jeff. How do I subscribe?

Jeff Wong
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

I thought some of you would get a kick out of my little excursion into the land of amusement. After I read DUP's post yesterday, I pictured taglines about marinara and stoves. When I was in the supermarket last night and saw the box of No.132 Fettuccine, I thought of a few Mark Levinson products, and that clinched it. I knew then that I would have to make a dummy cover of Pastaphile. I bought that box, and a jar of a simple roasted garlic sauce. Before cooking, I took a few shots of the box of pasta with my handy digital camera against a sheet of orange paper -- to hopefully emulate the feel of the seamless backdrops used on the covers of our fave audio mag (well, some people's fave.) The orange was chosen for its complementary relationship to the blue of the Ronzoni box. The meal was simple and yummy.

Later, when I got home, I started playing around and put together the cover. I was excited. This reminded me of my college days when I would produce artwork for class, but, more to amuse my friends and me.

Monty
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

I almost blew diet coke out my nose!

Jan Vigne
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
I don't understand why you want to club these issues into a fine powder.

?


Quote:
Give it a rest, already.

???

gkc
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

It belongs in the Sistine Chapel, next to a more famous, but less ambitious dinner scene. I am humbled beyond words at my miniscule part in this epic project. Jeff, you're too damned good to be involved in politics. I'm going to have someone with a better reputation than mine nominate you for canonization.

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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Jeff, thats amazing. the little touches, like dup's teh are hilarious.

I made it my desktop background, if thats ok with you.

Jeff Wong
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Thanks guys -- Knowing you got a chuckle and that Monty almost blew Diet Coke through his nose pleases me to no end.

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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
...Monty almost blew Diet Coke through his nose...

I tried that once in my wilder days.

The carbonation is really intense.

stuwee
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A proper bow to you sir!!

I've totally lost track of my comback, Ye are a clever lad!! touche! I would suggest a continued hobby in keeping us blowing beverages out are noses!! Good on ya Boy!! Some one said they wanted a hug? I'm avaliable if you don't blow something down my back!

mjalazard
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Buddha...as long as you don't blow chunks!
As for Pastaphile, if find that rainwater collected from the roof of the Sistine Chapel during a freak summer storm gives my pasta an ecumenical, if not eucharistic mouth feel. If, however, I use my prized vial of red tears collected from the Virgin Mary statue from the Vietnamese Catholic Martyrs Church of Sacramento, my pasta has an ethereal quality. You have to use fresh pasta and Hawiian sea salt...duh! Man, just writing about this makes me want to cook up a batch, re-align my Mpingo discs, and drift into the sanctity of Zamfir's Pan flute. Pass the Harveys Bristol!!!

Buddha
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
Buddha...as long as you don't blow chunks!
As for Pastaphile, if find that rainwater collected from the roof of the Sistine Chapel during a freak summer storm gives my pasta an ecumenical, if not eucharistic mouth feel. If, however, I use my prized vial of red tears collected from the Virgin Mary statue from the Vietnamese Catholic Martyrs Church of Sacramento, my pasta has an ethereal quality. You have to use fresh pasta and Hawiian sea salt...duh! Man, just writing about this makes me want to cook up a batch, re-align my Mpingo discs, and drift into the sanctity of Zamfir's Pan flute. Pass the Harveys Bristol!!!

Yeah, for those of you who don't know the reference, Chunks is my wife's dog.

Hey, if it's ecumenical pasta from the Sistine Chapel, then, by process of transsubstantiation, it ain't pasta any more. Then you're talking...well...let's leave it at that.

Also, and no offense, never trust anything red produced by anyone claiming to be "inviolate"...you see, there was this one time, in Tijuana...err...let's just say that some stories are best left un-iterated.

For those unfamiliar with the world of NFS Audio, "drift into the sanctity of Zamfir's Pan flute" is a euphemism for something that has been claimed to make people go blind...and I don't mean staring into the sun. Sometimes, his wife says he calls it "playing air flute."

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Digitally remastered Abbey Road EMI 1987 CDP7464462
The first CD release. I don't know what the rest of you guys are talking about.

mjalazard
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Ouch!?!

Buddha
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Actually, NFS Audio has a sure fire reference for "good sound."

He comes over to my place and listens to my system.

mjalazard
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Yeah, when it's actually working or when Buddha's kidz are off the X-Box:
http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/207/password//sort/1/cat/2/page/3

cyclebrain
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

So back to the original point. Listening to music at home and it doesn't sound "live". Is it because of the recording or your playback system/room? I like pie.

Tim Bailey
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

well IME a good real stereo simply miked recording of acoustic music is the ebst way to set up any stereo ssytem even IF you only listen to heavily produced/mixed down stuff.

Why? well it is the only way to know IF yr system/room setup actually works.

As a result, I get to hear what the producers have done. On Ry Cooders "JAZZ" on LP I have people playing to my right front almost reach out and touch stuff, and people playing way to the back left behind the LH sphere and out to the sides of the pr of spheres.

JBTW Pan-potted closely miked mutliple mono, isn't stereo, it isn't solid and it isn't all of a piece. Nice effects and stuff. And we are used to it at the least.

I want to 'be there' mostly, and not have them HERE!

And close-miking alters timbre away from what we hear at normal distances.

And, if you just can't stand classical, like Ken Kessler, try some Chesky or Water Lily recordings.

Seriously!

Yiangos
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Excellent work jeff ! rotfl

Lamont Sanford
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Or maybe because it isn't actually "live" but being played backed in your room. I once almost got my ass kicked at a Pink Floyd concert because I kept yelling over and over again, 'THAT IS NOT A REAL PIG!"

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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?


Quote:
Or maybe because it isn't actually "live" but being played backed in your room. I once almost got my ass kicked at a Pink Floyd concert because I kept yelling over and over again, 'THAT IS NOT A REAL PIG!"

What, you saw an imaginary pig?

Kudos!

I don't know why anyone would get upset. After all, it was a Floyd concert.

I've heard people at Floyd concerts say all kina things, like, "They're spiders crawling all over me," or "My brain is on fire," and nobody got riled up.

Maybe they thought you were trying to justify a non-kosher art piece?

Buddha
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Re: What do you use as a reference for "good" sound?

Big Mike and I once almost got our butts kicked for yelling, "FREE BIRD!!" over and over.

Those Jamie Cullum fans have absolutely no sense of humor.

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