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Buddha
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Toe In.

Hola.

For any given pair of speakers, are you more of a 'straight on' kind of listener, or a 'toe in' guy?

I ask 'cause I've been fussing with some speaker placement and I'm thinking I am sort of a non-toe-in guy. I like my imaging further back. I think a more stright ahead speaker set up tends to give me that.

Do you have a proclivity is this matter?

I know speakers vary, this is meant as a general kind of question.

Tonight I'm gonna try some 'aimed right at me' listening and see. Should be plenty of treble waiting for me, too!

mrlowry
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Re: Toe In.

I use very little toe in, just enough to get the vocal to snap into focus going any further than that tends to reduce sound stage width. It also, as you mentioned tends to shove the singer in the listener's face. To adjust toe in I use The Beatles-"Abbey Road" and the song "Her Majesty." The vocal and guitar start off in one channel and slowly pan all the way to the other channel. If the vocal move towards the listener as it gets close to the middle there is too much toe in, if the vocal moves away from the listener there is too little toe in. It should sound as if McCartney's vocals roll smoothly and continuously across the sound stage. If it sounds like he jumps from Right to Center to Left the speakers are too far apart.

ncdrawl
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Re: Toe In.

the creator of my speakers(+AudiokinesisDream Makers and Jazz Modules.. both amazing speakers built by Duke Lejeune one of the mos brilliant, humble, and just good people I have had the pleasure of doing business with) suggested a toe in so that the arcs cross well before the listening position.. and man, i tell you.. what an epiphany this has been... i have never heard my system sound so beautiful..... the imaging, freq. balance, and huge sweet spot.. just ...amazing.. This has worked equally well with my von schweikert vr4s(in the family room) and my b and w 802s(n the recording studio). i will never point em straight again..!

+(plug for AUDIOKINESIS was intentional )

dbowker
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Re: Toe In.

Toe in for me, but I always thought THAT gave me more depth, heheh. Some I've had needed a lot, my current ones just a little.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Toe In.

I'm all for "toe out". Taking my shoes off and letting my toes hang out makes all my music sound better and makes for easier toe tapping. Y'all should give it a try.

ethanwiner
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
Tonight I'm gonna try some 'aimed right at me' listening and see. Should be plenty of treble waiting for me, too!


Exactly. All speakers perform best on-axis. So they need to point directly at your ears.

--Ethan

mrlowry
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
All speakers perform best on-axis. So they need to point directly at your ears.

--Ethan

The word ALL is very dangerous. Maybe MOST would have been a better choice. Thiel speakers for example are designed to be used with zero toe in (and grills on) for the flattest frequency response.

ncdrawl
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Re: Toe In.

Mr. Winer, I dont believe that is true , as with most blanket statements.


Quote:

Quote:
Tonight I'm gonna try some 'aimed right at me' listening and see. Should be plenty of treble waiting for me, too!


Exactly. All speakers perform best on-axis. So they need to point directly at your ears.

--Ethan

linden518
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Re: Toe In.

With my Harbeth Super HL5s, I toe in very slightly so that I'm still 'off-axis.' If I get in the axis, I found the soundfield too narrow & the sound too concentrated. I like the wider soundstage & the imaging when I face these straight out, but for me, the slight toe-in gives me a happy median. When I had the Bluenote Ducale monitor speakers, they sounded much better with toe-in.

Elk
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
I use very little toe in, just enough to get the vocal to snap into focus going any further than that tends to reduce sound stage width. It also, as you mentioned tends to shove the singer in the listener's face. To adjust toe in I use The Beatles-"Abbey Road" and the song "Her Majesty."


An excellent test!

As well as a great explanation.

(I find that toe-in varies with speaker and placement. John Dunlavy recommended that his speakers be placed with little or no toe-in and this works great with them.)

Buddha
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Re: Toe In.

I have always liked the straight on approach with planar speakers, and use my Acoustats and Apogees that way.

Same way with horn loaded speakers - although this weekend is play-with-toe-in with the LaScalas, but I'm thinking, so far, that I have done myself no favor going past a 5 degree or so toe in, thusfar.

More listening to do.

Man, I swear, there is a huge difference between CD players. I'd be happy to perform blind A/B demos any day of the week.

mrlowry
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
I have always liked the straight on approach with planar speakers, and use my Acoustats and Apogees that way.

Same way with horn loaded speakers - although this weekend is play-with-toe-in with the LaScalas, but I'm thinking, so far, that I have done myself no favor going past a 5 degree or so toe in, thusfar.

More listening to do.

Man, I swear, there is a huge difference between CD players. I'd be happy to perform blind A/B demos any day of the week.

That's interesting I believe that Klipsch recommends pretty dramatic toe in and pushing the speakers INTO the corners thus using the corner as a bass horn of sorts (not just for the "K horns" but for all of their speakers.) I always found Klipsch speakers a bit bright but putting them closer to corners really changes their character for the better.

But, of course as most of us know the recommendations of a manufacturer should only serve as a starting point and shouldn't discourage experimentations.

ethanwiner
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
Thiel speakers for example are designed to be used with zero toe in (and grills on) for the flattest frequency response.


You're correct that "most" would have been a better word. But I'd have to see polar plots of those speakers to change my opinion. Maybe they intentionally have exaggerated highs to compensate?

--Ethan

SAS Audio
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:

Quote:
I have always liked the straight on approach with planar speakers, and use my Acoustats and Apogees that way.

Same way with horn loaded speakers - although this weekend is play-with-toe-in with the LaScalas, but I'm thinking, so far, that I have done myself no favor going past a 5 degree or so toe in, thusfar.

More listening to do.

Man, I swear, there is a huge difference between CD players. I'd be happy to perform blind A/B demos any day of the week.

That's interesting I believe that Klipsch recommends pretty dramatic toe in and pushing the speakers INTO the corners thus using the corner as a bass horn of sorts (not just for the "K horns" but for all of their speakers.) I always found Klipsch speakers a bit bright but putting them closer to corners really changes their character for the better.

But, of course as most of us know the recommendations of a manufacturer should only serve as a starting point and shouldn't discourage experimentations.

Nice post Mrlowry. For those new, individual speaker driver settings (the frequency response) is determined by several factors including equipment employed etc. So a speaker that sounds good toed-in when tested by the manufacturer in their reference system may sound quite different in the home with different equipment. Even if it were possible to use the exact same surroundings/acoustical characteristics the manufacturer uses, different equipment can easily cause a sonic deviation. Experimenting with the position, toe-in is helpful at home.

Take care.
Steve

ncdrawl
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Re: Toe In.

One good thing about my speakers is that the tonal balance changes relatively little as I change the toe-in angle. There is more high frequency energy on-axis, but that can be compensated for by changing a resistor (he provides several different values)on the back of the speaker. Ive never gotten good results with any speakers in any situation firing straight ahead.

Buddha
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
One good thing about my speakers is that the tonal balance changes relatively little as I change the toe-in angle. There is more high frequency energy on-axis, but that can be compensated for by changing a resistor (he provides several different values)on the back of the speaker. Ive never gotten good results with any speakers in any situation firing straight ahead.

That's very interesting.

Is there a 'style' of imaging (i.e. forward, 'laid back,') or perspective (front row, middle row, etc) that you prefer?

ncdrawl
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Re: Toe In.

man, never thought about that one.. Id say that I like things neutral, with a slight emphasis on "forward", especially with rock. I guess this may come from being a sound engineer.. I know that the vast majority of rock and roll/pop/punk etc albums are not "natural" creations anyway, so i like to hear them a bit close to me(what good is imaging that has been manufactured in a studio with panpots and delay circuits)..whereas with classical/jazz music, (though I am very picky) I want to hear things as neutral/laid back as possible. My preference for tube recording and playback gear comes from feeling that the tubes give me a more "in your face" sort of result

bobedaone
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Re: Toe In.

I'm toe-in all the way. The realities of my room mostly preclude very good soundstaging, and the speakers and amplifier aren't particularly "sharp", so I fire at my seat to gain more focus and high-frequency information.

I'm also a "low in the seat" guy because I have short speakers, and I like the effect the couch back has on the sound.

Elk
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
I'm also a "low in the seat" guy because I have short speakers, and I like the effect the couch back has on the sound.


The low-riders of audio.

linden518
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:

Quote:
I'm also a "low in the seat" guy because I have short speakers, and I like the effect the couch back has on the sound.


The low-riders of audio.


Me three.

Buddha
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
I'm toe-in all the way. The realities of my room mostly preclude very good soundstaging, and the speakers and amplifier aren't particularly "sharp", so I fire at my seat to gain more focus and high-frequency information.

I'm also a "low in the seat" guy because I have short speakers, and I like the effect the couch back has on the sound.

Hola, amigo.

Have you tried the 'easy street' listening tweak?

I, too, am a low rider, and one great 'tweak' to get people listening for things when they are new to Hi Fi is to have them sit hands down and listen, and then bring their arms up behind their heads like they are one 'easy street.'

It's a great way to get people to hear just what kind of sound differences, especially in the treble, can be noticed with basically no effort and instantaneous A/B comparison!

Cheers!

SAS Audio
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
One good thing about my speakers is that the tonal balance changes relatively little as I change the toe-in angle. There is more high frequency energy on-axis, but that can be compensated for by changing a resistor (he provides several different values)on the back of the speaker. Ive never gotten good results with any speakers in any situation firing straight ahead.

Neat idea Nc. Glad to see the variation possible with yours. I also tweek a couple of speakers by also adjusting resistor values.

Thanks for the post.
Steve

cyclebrain
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
All speakers perform best on-axis. So they need to point directly at your ears.

--Ethan

Come on Ethan, I know that you know better than that.
A speaker with a hot on axis peak will not sound better on axis. And certainly room interactions in both the frequency domain and in the time domain will combine to create a unique room response for every speaker/room combination.

ethanwiner
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
A speaker with a hot on axis peak will not sound better on axis.


So don't buy a speaker with a peaky response.


Quote:
And certainly room interactions in both the frequency domain and in the time domain will combine to create a unique room response for every speaker/room combination.


Yes, but that's a different issue, no?

Plus I already said above, "most" would have been a better word.

--Ethan

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Re: Toe In.

Wrong. Every speaker is designed differently, to create a wavefront differently, whether time aligned or not. Perhaps you should remove the dog from your left ear...

linden518
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Re: Toe In.

Wow. Welcome to the forum, Mr. Sunshine.

Buddha
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
Wrong. Every speaker is designed differently, to create a wavefront differently, whether time aligned or not. Perhaps you should remove the dog from your left ear...

Ethan is a renowned acoustics and recording expert.

He merits more respect.

We can't have just any yahoos telling someone who works closely with experts in the field and recording producers that he has a dog in his ear.

He has been interviewed and provided content for many esteemed publications.

Ethan has the respect of many audio companies, and people who take pot shots at him should just keep their assumptions close to their chests.

Somehow, I'm sure you agree with that sentiment!

ethanwiner
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
people who take pot shots at him should just keep their assumptions close to their chests.


Lest they reveal their own ignorance.

ncdrawl
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Re: Toe In.

DUP alter ego?


Quote:
Wrong. Every speaker is designed differently, to create a wavefront differently, whether time aligned or not. Perhaps you should remove the dog from your left ear...

Jan Vigne
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
He has been interviewed and provided content for many esteemed publications.

And none of them saw that dog inside his ear?

Buddha
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:

Quote:
He has been interviewed and provided content for many esteemed publications.

And none of them saw that dog inside his ear?

I was originally thinking that disparagement from Glotz was meant to be a joke about Ethan's left ear based on his forum pic, but Ethan is holding a cat. Since nobody is so stupid as to confuse a cat with a dog, I just went with the respect thing.

Even the most rapid subjectivist should be able master the cat/dog dichotomy.

Now, talking about what goes on behind or between Ethan's ears...

rvance
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
He has been interviewed and provided content for many esteemed publications.

And none of them saw that dog inside his ear?

I was originally thinking that disparagement from Glotz was meant to be a joke about Ethan's left ear based on his forum pic, but Ethan is holding a cat. Since nobody is so stupid as to confuse a cat with a dog, I just went with the respect thing.

Even the most rapid subjectivist should be able master the cat/dog dichotomy.

Now, talking about what goes on behind or between Ethan's ears...

I still don't get the whole dog thing. Is it the RCA Victor dog? A weiner dog? (Get it?) A dog as woofer (a bird as tweeter?)? Dogma? I'm so confused.

cyclebrain
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Re: Toe In.

And what about castor and camber settings?

Buddha
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Re: Toe In.


Quote:
I still don't get the whole dog thing. Is it the RCA Victor dog? A weiner dog? (Get it?) A dog as woofer (a bird as tweeter?)? Dogma? I'm so confused.

The more I ponder it, the more sure I become that Glotz looked at Ethan's picture, was able to identify the fact that Ethan's pet was being held near his left ear, and then proved that hubris is a terrible thing by asking Ethan if they noticed the 'dog' stuck in his left ear; thereby creating the most accidentally self-revealing and hilarious insult of the year.

Yiangos
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Re: Toe In.

Buddha there was something bothering me and last night,by coincidence,i confirmed it.My son was watching a comedy on tv and i was sitting there with him having a coffee when in the movie someone said something,wasn't actually watching it, and a woman opened a dictionary and was explaining to the kid what the word "crap" meant.I doubt if you remember but almost a year ago you made a joke (i believe it was a joke) regarding turntables with laser stylus etc and i said to you "Buddha,cut the crap will ya".I said it several times that my English is not good.I thought i was saying something like Buddha,cut the stupid jokes.I didn't realize "crap" had something to do with restroom,toilets and you know Therefore,i want to appologise to you for what i said and hope you are not angry at me.
Anyways,regarding the toe-in subject. Hi-fi,as i allways said,is full of compromises and personal prefferences. I,too,am a "straight ahead" person and not only this but i like my loudspeakers closer to the wall. I lose some imaging and depth but i win a wider soundstage,more bass and a fuller sound.

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