Sure there is a "resurgence". I wouldn't look at it from a media standpoint. Look at it more like a resurgence in the art of listening. Isn't this what its realy all about anyways. I mean, the way we listen to music in different forms of media is almost irrelevent. Mono, stereo, surround, Vinyl, 8 tracks, reel to reels, cassettes, cd's, mp3, high-rez DL's, etc. It's all been good, some way or another. I think the whole "resurgence" in LP's has brought back the true meaning of music... actually listening to it, and all the way through. So turn the volume up, sit back, press play, drop the needle, or just click on your favorite album and just ROCK-OUT!!

AlexO and DUP. I'm really curious as to what CD players you have and what kind of music you listen to? At one point, I heard a high-class CD player (about US$ 6,000), and was very positively surprised. This led me to hope that I could retire my vinyl rig (which is admittely expensive, although not anywhere near the $50,000 range).

However, trying out different DACs has made me doubt that. I listen mainly to classical music, and I have yet to hear digital reproduce brass instruments without sounding slightly phony and/or edgy in the digital way. Yes, on some very good recordings it's close, but not quite there. I've now bought an Accustics Arts DAC 1 MK4 (US$ 5-6,000 ?), but I still think that much cheaper vinyl rigs will sound more natural (although they will lack the punch and soundstaging of the Acc. Arts DAC). In that respect, I find vinyl a lot more forgiving - you will still get natural-sounding brass instruments from a $500 record player.

My point is that for me it's not a matter of nostalgia - I would really like to be able to move my space-consuming vinyl gear and records out of my living room, but I just don't see how I can live with digital only ...

j.

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AlexO and DUP. I'm really curious as to what CD players you have and what kind of music you listen to?.

I own the Rega Planet 2000 CD player. It was about $1k new. I listen to a wide variety of music ranging from classic rock to classical. The stuff that I don't really listen to is rap, country and 20th century classical. I listen to some jazz, but would not consider it as a main stay of my auditory diet.

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At one point, I heard a high-class CD player (about US$ 6,000), and was very positively surprised. This led me to hope that I could retire my vinyl rig (which is admittely expensive, although not anywhere near the $50,000 range)

However, trying out different DACs has made me doubt that.

One of the best sounding DACs I've heard was the Levinson 360S. I thought it was very musical and detailed. Another digital rig that I loved (although it's very old by audio standards) was the Krell KPS-25 - an all in one analog preamp, CD player, DAC.

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I listen mainly to classical music, and I have yet to hear digital reproduce brass instruments without sounding slightly phony and/or edgy in the digital way. Yes, on some very good recordings it's close, but not quite there. I've now bought an Accustics Arts DAC 1 MK4 (US$ 5-6,000 ?), but I still think that much cheaper vinyl rigs will sound more natural (although they will lack the punch and soundstaging of the Acc. Arts DAC). In that respect, I find vinyl a lot more forgiving - you will still get natural-sounding brass instruments from a $500 record player.

My friend Stew listens to classical exclusively. Ever since he bought the Levinson 30 DAC in the early 90's, he pretty much abandoned his vinyl rig (although he still has it along with all the records)

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My point is that for me it's not a matter of nostalgia - I would really like to be able to be able to move my space-consuming vinyl gear and records out of my living room, but I just don't see how I can live with digital only ...

j.

I find that I'm much happier listening to digital than I do to records. Perhaps the answer for you is in the rest of the setup like your speakers or supporting electronics. Naturally, there are digital front ends that I'm not too crazy about like Cambridge players or Musical Fidelity X series components. However, I've yet to hear a vinyl rig that speaks to me regardless of price.

Oh, btw, DUP's Tascam recorder/player is very good for a bit over a grand.

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I have yet to hear digital reproduce brass instruments without sounding slightly phony and/or edgy in the digital way.

I think you and others might benefit from this free-ware plug-in:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

BTW I'm serious. This plug-in claims to add the exact types of noise and distortion as vinyl, though I don't see a control to reduce high frequency crosstalk, or a way to specify greater HF loss you get when playing more near the center of the record.

--Ethan

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BTW I'm serious.

And on that note, you may want to think about one of these - much cheaper and easier to take care of.

Nice! But I think I'll do better eating the included lithium battery.

--Ethan

For me, it has nothing to do with being different and it has nothing to do with "tinkering". When you move your crap as often as I do, and live in a small apartment, a turntable and a record collection are HUGE pains in the ass.

I wouldn't put up with the hassle for shits and grins. Do you know how much I'd like to just say "screw this" and play exclusively files from my computer? (Hint: a lot). In fact, I listen primarily to digital because I'm busy, and when I'm not busy, I'm lazy. But, when I'm inclined to really sit down and listen, nothing satisfies like a good record. Period.

Does saying this invalidate your position? Of course not.

I'm sick of "pro-digital" euphemistically meaning "anti-analog". Music servers? USB DACs? High-res content? Bring 'em on! But I'll keep my PVC burden, thanks.

How entertaining! If I may dip my toe in the pool here I've recently adopted an ancient Rega Planar 3 and was truly stunned at the sound quality. The best part is that people give away entire collections of LP's for free! I've gotten a huge stack of classical albums that are completely free of snaps or pops, even though they are older than I am. That and the Rega is probably the best source I've got aside from a pro-audio soundcard. Which is better? Who cares! LP's are fun! The simplicity is magical. Disc spins, needle grooves, signal goes into amp, music! No DRM, no complicated mechanisms, just simple and good sounding music. For me vinyl is a romance where logic has no place.

I don't follow the tape arguement. I've owned a Revox A77 and the Rega whoops it good. The tape gets worn fairly quickly in my opinion, and is subject to similar mechanical problems that turntables have to overcome too.

If it's any consolation, I've got a few "Digital LP's".

Erik,

I'm with you all the way. Yes, we all have black discs that are not the greatest, but I also have many cds that are not the greatest either. Nevertheless, there is just something magical about the sound of a good disc and watching it spin I have to think there is no way possible for it sound a great as it does when you think of all the mechanical "problems" that must be overcome.

If we have to spend a thousand or two to get the most cd has to offer then spend the same amount on a good TT like the Music Hall 9.1 or even the Marantz and let the good times roll. I rebuilt a sorry Dual 502 and the most important thing I did was to rework and polish the spindle shaft and bearing well, totally clean it out when finished and use some high speed turning machine bearing grease that was $85 for a 5 OZ tube. The only platter noise is what is in the groove of the disc. I am amazed at how quiet this reworked bearing is. The 502 tone arm is crap, but when I finally replace it with a new Rega RB300 it might be pretty magical when I get there.

When I think back to listening to the Music Hall 5,7,9s I have had here along with my P3, the older dual CS 5000 I sold 7 years ago and the Thorens 850, I am not surprised viny has made a huge comeback, and none of them can come close in price or performance to a Continuum, VPI HR-X, Simon Yorke, Brinkmann, SME 10, Sota, Rega P9, or a Linn Sondek. So what? Get pretty good and it still is tremendously musical and enjoyable. If that makes me stupid...ignorance is bliss I guess. I am quite happy, thank you very much. So are a bunch of people on this forum as well.

Welcome, labrat! You waited a long time for your first post, but it's a good one.

I have a modest CD system and a modest vinly system and the CD is decades better than the vinyl. Does that mean vinyl is not fun or can not sound pretty good...no. It does mean that for the money I have to spend, CD's sound far better.

Eric,

I wish I could hear what you're hearing when you spin records if for no other reason than to compose an intelligently structured counter point. As it is, all I can say is that I don't hear the magic of vinyl.

There are certain speakers and components that other people like, which don't speak to me. At least there, I can nod my head and say: "Ok, I can see how you may like these. They don't speak to me, but at least I understand the aspects that may illicit an emotional response." When it comes to vinyl, I just don't get it. I don't hear the magic and I cannot in good faith nod my head and say, "I can see how someone may like this".

I honestly don't see how anyone who seeks high fidelity would immerse themselves in such a flawed technology. I can understand liking the art work, I can understand the process of handling records, I can understand the fascination of watching purely mechanical forces at play. I don't understand the claim that vinyl is somehow superior from a purely sound reproduction standpoint.

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I cannot in good faith nod my head and say, "I can see how someone may like this".

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I honestly don't see how anyone who seeks high fidelity would immerse themselves in such a flawed technology.

Hey AlexO,

Since you put it that way, I suppose we must face the possibility that your listening skills are either better or worse than the people who enjoy vinyl. If the former is correct, you

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Look at it more like a resurgence in the art of listening. Isn't this what its realy all about anyways.

Yes it is - it is about the enjoyment of listening to music. Period. And so far, the only thing I've found that actually gets in the way is thinking more than listening. I've enjoyed listening to music on CD, cassette, radio, reel-to-reel, iPod, SACD, DVD-A, 78s, LPs, 45s, 8 tracks, music servers, in cars, homes, audio dealers, on the beach, in a pool, in bars, clubs, symphony halls and on the corner. Sometimes even from around the corner.

I'd like to think that the older I get the more things I enjoy. Of course I have to give up the idea of becoming an expert as opposed to simply being experienced.

Michael,

You're quoting a guy whose bread and butter is vinyl playback. Whereas Rega makes CD players (quite good and I own one), Regas core business is LP playback. What would you expect him to say? Would you expect him to turn his back on his core business and piss off his loyal customer base?

That's like quoting the founder of Magnepan and expect him to say that he prefers the sound of dynamic speakers.

So he's lying? I see. Do you think he's lying when he says he has over 4000 LPs and only a couple hunderd CDs? Or is he just lying about which he prefers?

And I guess the musicians, recording engineers, reviewers, all the people who've posted on this thread and generally everyone who buys, listens to and says they prefer LPs is

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So he's lying? I see. Do you think he's lying when he says he has over 4000 LPs and only a couple hunderd CDs? Or is he just lying about which he prefers?

No, he's not lying. Just like the founder of Magnepan wouldn't be lying if he said that he prefers Planar sound above all else. If he didn't why would he invest his time, money and effort pursuing a technology that he doesn't think is "the best"?

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And I guess the musicians, recording engineers, reviewers, all the people who've posted on this thread and generally everyone who buys, listens to and says they prefer LPs is

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I would have to take this on case by case basis.

Please do and bring DUP (insert which ever emoticon you feel is most appropriate).

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I would have to take this on case by case basis.

Please do and bring DUP (insert which ever emoticon you feel is most appropriate).

Very well... we'll take it on case by case basis.

So... tell me about your childhood...

Sometimes a record is just a record?

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They make pipes out of vinyl P Vinyl Chloride, ya know wants rruns through those large P VINYL Chloride pipes, waste materials, sewer sludge.

You may want to start with a more interesting subject.

I like my records and CD's, and other stuff too. I like my records despite their relative inconvenience. I don't understand the folks who say they like the "ritual" etc of handling/cleaning the records. That's not a cool novel thing for me - I'm middle aged and been buying records and cleaning them for too long to get any enjoyment out of a minor chore.
LP's have their faults and I don't deny them. They do have ticks and pops to varying degrees. That IS a MAJOR reason why people migrated quickly to CD, I acknowledge that. And I don't like ticks and pops, and they do bug me when listening to LP.

Some of my CD's sound better than records. And vice versa. And sometimes they're similar. I still find that variation in recording quality, production, etc often overwhelms format differences.
"Theoretical" objections to a technology ("dragging a needle", "chopping up into bits") may have a place in discussion, but in a given listen, I can prefer either CD or LP due to the whole conglomeration of factors involved in that album. So it's all about the music, and LP is one of the media that can deliver it. Imperfectly, like every damn other media I've experienced so far.

Good post Bill. That sums it up very well.

C'mon. Really! You obviously haven't been to an independent record store lately that sells vinyl. Most indie titles are available on inexpensive vinyl and they usual give away MP3 downloads as well. Not to mention all the great reissues that are currently available. A well recorded and well mastered vinyl record is the best sounding source available! DUP is completely misguided on this one...

" DUP is completely misguided on this one..."

On this...ONE?

Heh... that's a rather generous way of putting it.

Hey, I guess I was just trying to be pleasant.

A few messages back, someone mentioned that they were completely jazzed by Radiohead's "In Rainbows" on vinyl. If possible, try to find the limited edition Discbox because it contains the single LP mastered onto two 45 RPM LP slabs. Having owned the regular one, the 45 RPM version simply creams the regular one big time!! I was fortunate enough to have a letter printed in TAS about this release. Check it out if you can...

"Hey, I guess I was just trying to be pleasant."

Oh, no problem. I'm all for pleasant. It was just an inadvertently funny understatement of immense proportions. Welcome to the forum!

Welcome, vooj!

I have yet heard a 45 rpm version next to the 33 1/3 equivalent. I need to.

Egads, what is he talking about?

Does anyone know?? Does anyone care???

Hello Elk,

The In Rainbows discbox is definitely the way to go. Best of luck in your search.

Hi Doug,

Sounds like DUP is passing a gallstone over there, don't cha think?

What I find interesting in all this debate is that if we look at the masses who have chosen digital over vinyl, it is the convenience they have chosen and often MP3s at, what 128kbps, for their listening? The fact that this does given them low noise, but certainly not close to cd quality. So I guess the "remarkableness" of cd is lost on most customers who are choosing downloads?

Add listening on cheap ear buds and what do we have the mainstream really enjoying about digital audio. Portability?I have no qualms about what they like as the country is still free, but for those of us who still enjoy vinyl I still don't get the angst over it? Some vinyl IS better than CD and I am a big proponent of SACD, but since we have little software support what is one to do?

I am hoping with this new SACD player from Sony this signals more support from them, but they will have to show me something when others want to offer discs but cannot get Sony to offer pressing time. I am quite surprised at how many manufacturers offer SACD players considering Sony's lack of support.

If someone is willing to spend $2K to $5K on a digital player, an equal amount on a great TT and phone stage can offer remarkable playback, which to me is undeniable. An occasional click and pop does not drive me nuts. Hey, at 61 I am clicking and popping as well. Maybe it is the extra exercise I need changing the sides of LPs that is most important to me anyway. Fun is fun no matter what the source.

I still find a reason to thank MF and AD for keeping up the writing about vinyl playback every day. A batch of vinyl with a good TT rig should be put in a time capsule. Heck, maybe by then there will be no 120 volts AC and it won't matter. I remember Fox Muldur on the X-Files saying that the price of liver and onions on Reticulum was quite high and accounts for their gray skin tone. So, if they are the ones who find the capsule one should probably find out they're probably not into vinyl either.

I have written directly to one the major, national vinyl equipment dealer to ask them to chime in as to what they are experiencing sales wise in the resurgence of vinyl. I hope they are willing to add some comments. Even a % of growth over each the last 5-10 years would be interesting.

The mp3 listeners of today are no different from the vast majority of the LP listeners in the 1960's. I'd clean my records and stylus while almost all of my buddies would pile the LPs in a pile with no covers on them and crab whatever was available with their grimy fingers all over the grooves.

Really, I don't think that a lot has changed. Audiophiles were rare decades ago and they're still relatively rare.

Dave

I see MP3 players today's equivalent of cassette decks and ipod the Walkman equivalent. That's not hi-fi, so that's outside the scope of this discussion.

I refer to CD resolution or higher played on what would be accepted within these forums as hi-fi gear compared to records played on what would be considered hi-fi gear. I see no reason to introduce irrelevant variables.

I happened onto this thread, and I won't go back and read every page. Suffice to say I'm not sure why DUP has such a big chip on his shoulder over something so harmless as vinyl's revival.

I read a GN'R forum and CD vs. vinyl was discussed to some degree. A poster named "angry anderson" is in the recording industry and threw in his two cents, and maybe this is the bottom line:

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that's about it, and accuracy isn't what makes something sound good to the human ears. vinyl will tend to have more total distortion than a CD, it's just more of the type of distortion that is pleasing to our ears.

Some more of his comments:

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not really true. the source material for vinyl is recorded to 2" tape, which has a bias frequency of 150khz to around 300kHz depending on what type of machine it was.
that means the best frequency response (for 150khz bias frequncy) would be 75khz. it doesn't really matter all that much because a typical vinyl record has a frequency response of less that 13khz on the top end after only 10 plays. the thing that makes vinyl sound the way it does is 1) the dynamic compression of the tape getting hit hard during mastering and 2) all the things that had to be done to master to vinyl to overcome the shortcomings of a stylus tracking in a groove, like out of phase low frequency content, or too much high frequency content, both of which can cause the stylus to not track, and damage the records. The resulting non-linear distortion, and dynamic clipping is a type of compression that sounds pleasing to the ear. A tube also does this when it clips.

a cd clipping will sound like balls, because the waveform just gets chopped off at the top. one of the biggest problems in the mastering "loudness wars" of the last 10 years is that the converters on most high end mastering gear can reproduce 1 to 2dB hotter signals without clipping 0dbfs on the output than consumer cd players. the result is that the record will sound great in the mastering studio, and then will clip 85% of cd players in the real world and sound like garbage. this is what is happening when most people complain about the crappy sounding "loud" mastered cds.

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that "howstuffworks" article isn't very good. it's not nearly that simple. a 44.1khz 16 bit CD will reproduce 10khz way more accurately than vinyl will with less noise. these pages better explain the basic way D-A converters actually work

http://www.embedded.com/shared/printableAr...icleID=22101730
http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/DeltaSigma/DeltaSigma.html

The thread is here for anyone who cares: http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=124959

If it sounds better, it's better. If it doesn't, get something else. "Better" is always in the ears of the beholder.

There are no authoritative arbiters of this conflict. Your ears grow on your own head, not someone else's. And, your ears thus hook up to your own brain's processing apparatuses, including the memories of past pleasures, pains, and all the mediocrities in between.

Citing other works on this subject will do you no good. You are trapped inside your own head.

I like vinyl. I am no authority, because I have been around too long to trust any authorities. I just listen to live, which I prefer to all reproductions, and try to simulate that memory as best as I can. Vinyl does it best.

This must be frustrating to all who like to mind-fuck minutiae and argue the results, but, at the end of all such futile musings, what you hear tonight with your own ears will determine what you argue against during tomorrow's disputes about be-alls and end-alls.

My ears are better than yours. And the brain I process the vibrations with is better than yours. If you doubt this, play your music through an oscilloscope, or, better yet, use your OWN ears and brain. Which are, beyond any arguable doubt, infinitely better than anything attached to my poor neck.

14 years, this screed is not addressed to you. I rather liked your post. I use the non-imperial, general "you," addressed to all the authorities out there who are trying to re-head me.

Cheers, and happy listening.

dup dup, cluck cluck, schmuck schmuck

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dup dup, cluck cluck, schmuck schmuck

Now that's what I call a well-reasoned, thoughtful, and detailed reply to the ideas in this thread. In only 6 words you have overwhelmed us with your rebuttal.

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dup dup, cluck cluck, schmuck schmuck

Now that's what I call a well-reasoned, thoughtful, and detailed reply to the ideas in this thread. In only 6 words you have overwhelmed us with your rebuttal.

In addition to its short, crisp style it made more sense than the post to which it responds.

I agree. Vinyl sucks. I hate it. Clicks. Pops. Reissues? Sure, if you happen to like mid 70's luggage. Please, be smart. Sell your vinyl. Right away. Preferably jazz. Maybe some late 60's, early 70's rock like Joplin, Hedndrix, Cream, Airplane, and Sly. And do yourself a favor. Come to Cincinnati and sell it to Everybody's Records on Montgomery Road. They are suckers. They'll pay you for your records. You could probably take a vacation on what they'll pay you. They even have swimsuit models trading in vinyl. Oh, yeah, let me know when you go so I can meet you there, and celebrate your new found financial riches. I'll probably stick around after you leave just to jeer at the boobs who love their vinyl.

James

Your totally wrong

All that old useless vinyl should be sold in a big city like Chicago, you will get a better price for it.

Of course we really want all that useless old Zeppelin and floyd and such like

Alan

The original SACD's will be worthless because they are a soulless commodity !!!

Vinyl has soul, thats why it will never die and will survive whatever digital fad comes up next

Alan

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I have a few that could feth the grand sum of $60, IF someone was willing to pay that, which you ain't gonna find, it's all BS.

Dup - that's basic economics. Any of your records would go for $60 (or $60,000 for that matter) if someone was willing to pay that. Value == what people are willing to pay.