In the spirit of listening I also like the quote Ron.

It always makes me roll my eyes a little when someone lives in a world of "cuts". How can someone be negative about music? I get it if your not successful, of course it's going to be on your last nerve, but when we live in a world of freedom, it's our own fault if we choose to not do something about it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

>>> “I actually don’t recall anyone accusing you of having bad feels toward May or me. Now, on the other hand, both May and I have repeatedly called you out for monopolizing threads, misrepresenting our positions, lying and putting words in our mouths. And having a bad memory. But not bad feelings.” <<<

Michael, I agree with Geoff’s comment (above). I challenge you specifically when you state that your methods are THE methods, that your answers are THE answers and that your truth is THE truth !! I also challenge you when you do what Geoff describes i.e. misrepresent what I say and believe !!! As in your latest – and yet again – another misrepresentation :-

>>> “nothing more than both you and geoff trying to push fixed tweaks over variable ones.” <<<

Again, Michael, would you PLEASE stop misrepresenting what I say or believe !!!!

I have ALWAYS said that BOTH “fixed” techniques and variable techniques give the best of both worlds.

What I have challenged you on, over the past 2 years, is your persistence claims that your “variable” techniques are THE answer, THE method and THE truth.

And you don’t like being challenged !!

Let me state, YET AGAIN, that I absolutely agree with you that Everything, EVERYTHING, in the modern environment, has an effect on the sound (what I refer to as the musical information).

I also believe that people are not hearing (resolving) all the musical information available to them both from the actual recording and from the information which is eventually presented into the room via the loudspeakers.

Now, are we clear. Can we progress from that point ?

To get the best of everything, one needs to use BOTH ‘fixed’ AND variable tuning techniques.

The very basic problem you and I (and Geoff) have, Michael, is that people are different in how they interpret the meaning of EVERYTHING in the listening environment !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Hi May

Some how we'll get through this, I'm not sure how but we will.

You said

"And you don’t like being challenged !!"

May, honestly dear your not challenging me. We are faced with challenges all the time, but within these challenges there is a two way street that is developed, and in those two years (well year and a half) neither you nor geoff have provided me with enough of that type of communication to make a true discussion happen. I've tried every way I know, and even some ways I'm not proud of and find myself out of character with. I'm sorry your not satisfied, but I think you should have talks with others and not me concerning these issues.

As Ron said "all ideas are welcome".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Ron

Sent you an email and suggestion on how to handle the things you wish to do outside of the forum here.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Ron

To widen your search, the original was called the DP100, then MDV2100 and then MDV2300. I have not gone out and looked for a replacement for the Maggie, but instead had Harold buy a few for us. I personally am not crazy about the sound of CDP's (the digital sound), but this particular player does not have the digital sound once the mod is done and the player is set on a nice transfer block or platform. On Tuneland we have pics so you can see the inside layout and I can explain why it sounds the way it does.

the price

Once a product gets that underground reputation the prices start going up. Nothing to do but hope you score one.

I'll take a peek at the sony but have no idea until I listen to them. Have gone through 100's to find the maggie.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May, if you would, go to referencing SuperTramp "brother where you bound". If you read my posts you will see I'm starting to explore the recording. This is a good example of why I go with variable and not fixed.

In the pasted when talking to the both of you the question about changing the sound at will in order to listen more spefically, has been asked by me many times as part of the answers to your questions concerning "A" way vs "THE" way. Never has there been a reply from either of you. This is the point of disconnect between us. In my world we don't point to one sound, we point to the ability to be flexible enough to explore any and all sounds. We look at tweaks as "A" sound vs "tuning" as "THE" variety of all sounds possible within the industry and hobby. I think you and geoff have somehow made "tuning" into "A" tweak when it isn't. Tuning is a method. It encompasses all and every tweak as a setting of sound. My side of this, is to make that setting as variable as possible, so that the listener can make choices, and the differences between recordings can be dealt with.

Dealing with mating the recorded code of every recording to the playback system is a far bigger fish to fry, than any set tweak or sound.

For example, since we're here with Ron, what if Ron buys into the theory of total "isoltaion". This theory is based on providing "one" "fixed" sound. So Ron one day is sitting there, and re-reads mg's referencing on Brother, and says to himself "what is mg talking about", "that's not what is happening on that recording". How does Ron find out, without spending money on plane fair? What if Ron is sitting there with this "one" sound which is "isolated" and decides that he would rather listen to David Bowie's "Lets Dance", but his system is "locked" into the way he set it up for "brother". What does he do? What ever he does is called a variation. Even if it's only adjusting the volume, it's a variable tweak.

Look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration_isolation . Looks pretty cool right and the phrase "high end audio" is right in there. So how does Ron go from tuning in Let's Dance after Brother. Is Let's Dance auto-tuned somehow through "isolation". And what if Ron's hearing changes, or taste with that particular recording? If everything is fixed, how does he get there? And what if that one "fixed" tweak such as Cryo, or C37 stops him from making that one adjustemnt he needs to get to that place he wants to go, what does he do?

This is why I invite both you and geoff to join us in referencing where we can do these actual tweaks and explore the possibilities. It's more than hearing a change or saying "better". It's about the freedom to get whatever sound you want any time you want it.

Geoff & May, don't you think it's time to put differences aside and come to the listening room? Opinions and theories can stay on spin cycle forever, and if this is your hobby it's a different one than mine, and as I said earlier, your probably talking to the wrong guy on these issues. On the other hand lets listen together and explore all these tweaks fixed, variable or invisible. Ron offers this "all are welcome" approach, and I feel the best expression of this is demonstrated in what we "DO".

let's all turn the page and get to the listening part of the hobby

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael wrote,

"Geoff & May, don't you think it's time to put differences aside and come to the listening room? Opinions and theories can stay on spin cycle forever, and if this is your hobby it's a different one than mine, and as I said earlier, your probably talking to the wrong guy on these issues. On the other hand lets listen together and explore all these tweaks fixed, variable or invisible. Ron offers this "all are welcome" approach, and I feel the best expression of this is demonstrated in what we "DO"."

Shirley you jest.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

>>> “My side of this, is to make that setting as variable as possible, so that the listener can make choices, and the differences between recordings can be dealt with.” <<<

You say this in one breath, Michael, and then you recommend to Ron to do certain “fixed” tweaks like:-

>>> “I would snip the cable ties any where there are any, and bend the wire as high as I could away from the bottom plate or sides or each other. If I could, any twisted wire would be untwisted.
I would hard wire my power like I did my CDP.

Remove your outlet plate altogether with only the outlet and wires. See how your wires are all pushed back in? If those babies are able to be pulled straight your amp will gain output.” <<<

Surely, logically Michael, if Ron did all those things they would now be permanent (i.e. “fixed” because surely Ron would not be going back and forth, during or between listening to recordings, replacing the cable ties, re-twisting the wires, putting the wires back near the bottom plate or sides ????? Changing the sound ??????????

>>> “Now run to the store (darn I'm still not making any money) and look for "static guard". It will probably take you a couple 3 maybe 4 cans. Go through your house and turn off and unplug everything, and I mean everything. Any plugs you leave in will not discharge it's static. Turn off your fuse box mains. Now carefully go through the house and let it rip (don't get too close to the circuit boards) you want to have everything you can possibly get to fade as fast as it can, so that as things are turned back on the charge of your house will come up as close to the same time as possible. This is the proper way to discharge your home, all over and all at once.” <<<

I appreciate that things are described differently in the USA than they are in the UK so I am not sure whether with your description of “static guard” you are referring to an antistatic product or to the type of fabric softener which is used in washing machines to prevent clothes ‘sticking together’ because of built up static !! Whichever it is you were meaning, surely ‘dealing with static’ is a “fixed” (permanent up to a point) tweak ??? In other words, once applied it has done it’s job and one cannot go back to how it was before the treatment. One would have to wait until static had built up again to be back in the previous situation.
So, it would NOT be a variable tuning tweak !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think if you asked Ron he would say that he would not be going back and forth, re-twisting the wires, replacing the cable ties back around wires, unstraightening output wires during listening to a recording or to different recordings. In other words, he has carried out some “fixed” tweaks.

As in (Ron’s description):-

>>> “snipping away the cable ties from the sides and each other the factory bundled wires, with the goal of separating main runs from each other as well as the bottom and metal sides of the case.
Unscrewing the wall outlet where I plug the Creek into and again unravelled those wires, separated them, and made them straight as possible.” <<<

Ron has “tweaked” his system and yet you are claiming it as “part of your variable tuning techniques”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You recommended those ‘tweaks’ to him, yes, but they are not ‘variable’ !!!!

>>> “This is the point of disconnect between us. In my world we don't point to one sound, we point to the ability to be flexible enough to explore any and all sounds. We look at tweaks as "A" sound vs "tuning" as "THE" variety of all sounds possible within the industry and hobby. I think you and geoff have somehow made "tuning" into "A" tweak when it isn't. Tuning is a method. It encompasses all and every tweak as a setting of sound.” <<<

Yet again, Michael, you are misrepresenting what I say and what I believe. I have told you repeatedly that BOTH “fixed” AND variable tweaks are the best. As you recommendations to Ron have just shown !!! You offered him BOTH !!!!!!!! And yet you keep misrepresenting me as advocating only one Tweak !!
You asked :-

>>> “So how does Ron go from tuning in Let's Dance after Brother. Is Let's Dance auto-tuned somehow through "isolation". And what if Ron's hearing changes, or taste with that particular recording? If everything is fixed, how does he get there?” <<<

I will turn that into asking YOU.

What happens if Ron’s hearing changes, or his taste with a particular recording. If he has snipped the cable ties any where there are any, and bent the wire as high as he could away from the bottom plate or sides or each other, or untwisted any twisted wire ?

Or pulled the outlet wires straight ?

Does he go back and and forth, re-adjusting everything continually ? YOU recommended those things as ‘tweaks’ !! What if THEY stop him from making that one adjustment he needs to get to that place he wants to go, what does he do?

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Well, how do you change the sound, other than turning the volume or the bass boost on your portable cassette player?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Is Michael addressing me? It was May who was pointing out the fallacy of his recommendations to Ron. Color me confused.

Michael, how many fingers am I holding up?

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of something something something something.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hi Ron

Either one. When you get it, do me a favor and take a pic of it without the cover so I can see the board. thanks

Also you mentioned blocks. I don't see why that wouldn't be a fun experiment.

Also, when you get the Maggie, be looking for a way the interconnects won't pull on the unit. If there is stress on the RCA inputs it's all bets off. I'll be happy to give some pointers along the way. Mainly it's a matter of switching those brain gears from over done to extremely minimalistic.

exciting stuff

Don't forget, if this heads in a successful direction for you, I have a few tuning boards here that might make it fun for you to play with. I'll either sell them or put them somewhere they can do good for all to see.

When you knock on your equipment cabinet what kind of tones do you get? If the transfer goes well (with the maggie), we'll want to look into voicing that cabinet.

Another thing (I know these aren't treated) go to your hardware store and pick up #92 springs. They come in a few materials but hopefully you'll find some ok sounding ones. What we can do is start setting up your own testing lab. This way you can bring in a bunch of different materials and see how they do. You don't need big pieces of anything to get a feel for the flavors you can create, especially with the maggie and creek.

I think having materials that allow you to head in a few directions would be cool. Mu-metal used with dampening is talked about a lot, of course small pieces or bigger if you like marble, or other stone. Also you can look into brick and other baked materials. You can explore freezing and see where that takes you. Really a bunch of stuff you can do before starting to shell out the buck-a-roo-knees.

You can look at TuneLand and see a ton of different configurations and materials. The main thing is getting to a place where you are able to start tayloring the sound, and identifying timbre and phasing, which on the timbre side you got down with your playing. Having your guitar will do you tons of good. As you start to head down this path you'll be able to look at and play your instrument and compare to your system. You will find more commonalities than you thought you would, follow those. Once you get to the place of "vibratory" making sense instead of Kill Bill (vibrations) your world will open up big league. Start viewing materials as not being bad, but part of the ingredients in your cooking. Start looking as your system not being broke, but simply in or out of tune. You don't want to change nature you just want to use and control it.

Good Man!

Also, start puting mental notes in your brain, like metal sounds like this, pine sounds like that, rubber sounds like this, pvc sounds like that. As you build your sound library in your mind it's going to help you. Nothing is off limits, but be careful about permanent moves. You want to always be able to de-tune that guitar as much as tune it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ron, your original instinct was correct; a $59.00 Walmart CD player cannot make crappy sounding CD's sound good. Forget the Magnavox CD player. It's junk. Your system sounds excellent. The reason your turntable system sounded so good right off the bat wasn't because you were "lucky" as you said, it was because a good turntable analog system has superior sound ,compared to digital.
I have two systems; one is a project carbon turntable with an Ortofon 2Mblue cartridge and a Music Hall phono stage ,a Marantz reference integrated amp w/120 wpc, and Polk RTi4 speakers on pedestal stands and a B&W powered subwoofer.
The other system is a more expensive digital system with a Marantz 7007 UD player and Polk RTia5 floorstanding speakers.
I find myself listening almost exclusively to the analog system because it sounds so much better. There's something missing in digital sound. It's hard to identify specifically what it is. The turntable system seems to disappear ,physically, from the room when listening, and only the music remains, hanging in space as if by magic.
On the other hand all I hear from the more expensive digital system is the same lifeless digital sound.

David wrote,

There's something missing in digital sound. It's hard to identify specifically what it is."

Totally agree. That's actually what I've been preaching lo these past twelve months or whatever. And what's missing, if you'll pardon my filling in the blanks, is a lack of immediacy, or presence some people call it, that airy sound that has bloom and harmonic integrity. And pitch correctness. On CDs the pitch is all wrong, yes, there are some exceptions, but I'm speaking generally. Details are also missing in untreated CDs at least that are present in analog sources of the same piece. Threadbare and washed out by comparison. That's what I've been jumping up and down shouting from the rooftop for the past twelve months. Even with my el cheapo Sony walkman cassette player it's as obvious as the nose on your face. It's SO much better it's stupid.n Hel-looo! Just another case where the forces of good lost out to the forces of evil.

Cheers,
Machina Dynamica

Glad to hear of your progress and without really trying to be snippy or anything make an observation that I think is true. Where you have arrived is kind of like Base Camp, a very nice place to be and miles ahead of where you used to be. But most of the mountain is still ahead and the climbing more treacherous and steep. Rest well, weary trekker, and enjoy what you've worked hard to achieve, but fill your lungs with thick air and gather your determination and strength for the climb to the top. ;-)

Geoff Kait
Michigan Ceramics

I prefer to listen to music and I think Ron has done a very nice job of opening up things.

My recommendation for all is to join in the actual listening on the reference threads. Personal experiences both successes and failures should also be added to the mix as we review and make opinions.

for example

David you mentioned on another thread that you have 300 CD's with only 10 of them sounding good on your system. This type of detail, should not be over looked as someone reads your opinions.

For this reason, I think to be fair we should consider having our own personal listening threads, where we list our past present and future in the hobby. This way comments can be given and recieved in context.

As far as the Walmart comment goes, I don't care where someone buys their equipment from or how much they paid. Those types of remarks for myself paint a certain picture of the person making them and nothing more. I also don't hang on to brands with the excepting of what I see people having success with. And success to me is something I personally judge by the description of the music itself. The hopes here with Ron's system is that he may return to his original setup after exploring a few things with concerns to low mass, minimalistic, mechanical transfer vs isolation. Ron may end up with a completely different view than the many who are now using the Maggie successfuly, but it does give us a common ground to not only start with but play with. If Ron hates the Maggie, trust me David my ego is not bruised. I'm not the designer or producer of the Maggie. What I am, is a guy who is able to play anything I want with success using this unit (after some moding and knowledge).

I might also add, it's a lot easier to head into new territory with a 50 bucks or less toy than tearing apart your expensive gear. Ron can move forward or call it quits with the maggie anytime he wants without tossing away the buck-a-roo-knee-os.

Come join us in the referencing David.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I swear I didn't see that coming. Wow! Glad to hear it, really. I think you made a good move.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Micheal, I didn't say my system can only play 10 of my CD's. I said only 10 of my CD's have good sound quality. What is it that you're not intelligent enough to understand about this?
You tell us you've "seen" thousands of audiophiles who have replaced their high-end gear with the cheap junk you connect to your speakers with 22 guage wire because it's "low mass".
You tell us about you're extensive audio experience and you tell us what "the most advanced audio engineers " think.
You post things like"We noticed early on that blah blah blah".
Who is "we"? You and who else?
It all sounds like made-up nonsense.
There is no such thing as"matching the playback code to the recorded code" There is no such thing as "overbuilt"
You don't know what you're talking about. Apparently you don't know what sound quality is.
In any case, please allow the rest of us to discuss high-quality gear.

Hi David

Have at it. Might I recommend you start your own threads and create a following with your thoughts and theories. Instead of saying it's made-up nonsense, why don't you spend your time promoting what you think sense is?

If you believe you only being able to play 10 out of 300 CD's is a CD problem and not a system problem, maybe you should start posting references of recordings. If your saying the rest of you want to only be able to play 10 out of 300 and I should bug out, for myself this makes no-sense. So we have a difference of opinion on what nonsense is, no biggie.

David said

"Who is "we"? You and who else?"

mg

Your more than welcome to look at, and up, my credentials on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ .

David

"There is no such thing as"matching the playback code to the recorded code"

mg

What particular part of this hobby are you in David? Let me take the most simple example possible to show the playback as needing to match the recording. Let's not use my experience but Catch22's "the importance of volume". Catch has stated how the volume is one of the most over looked areas in playback. He's right on the money! The recorded code and system playback volume (including speaker/room interface volume) are connected at the hip. David, do you play all recordings at the same volume? Since your asking questions, go through your CD's and tell me what is the difference in mastered volume between those 300 CD's?

This very simple example shows there are recorded codes, without getting into the "recorded code" at barely scratching the surfuce levels. If you don't get this, are you absolutely sure you want to go up against others about "audio intelligence"?

let's take this a step deeper if it's ok

We just referenced ST "Brother Where You Bound". People made comments about the recording tilt at the top end. Listen to most Supertramp recordings and you will hear this same flavor. Put Brother on your T-table, CD, Tape deck, file and you will hear this tilt. Now take the time to put on Floyd, Dire Straits and Peter Gabriel and notice that each one of these has the same situation. Not all a tilt, but all a character unique to their recording styles. Dave sounds different than Mark and Peter. This is called a "recoded code". No matter what source you use, you will hear this unique code (recorded settings) come through, if you have ears. Why does your TT sound better to you? Because you have adjustability. Reel 2 reel offers similar adjustability. CDP's David were never made variable stock. Take a thousand CDP's and hook them up to your system and every one of them will give you a different sound. If it were the CD's David and not the players and systems, why the difference? Why does one listener enjoy those 290 CD's and you don't? Blaming recordings and formats only goes so far. I can take you to as many systems using CD, that blow away vinyl as I can the other way around. Same goes with tape, and as of late same goes with files.

So are we to say CD's suck because you have been more successful with your table than your CDP? You can, but I find that approach extremely lacking in experience. If this makes you upset enough to ask me to leave, how limited have you and the others who agree with you made this hobby?

Let's say I leave and high end audio continues to die till the old is gone. The reviewers have passed away or are retiring, and you can only play 10 out of 300 CD's and get POed at me for playing all my CD's with great success. If you have the same bad luck with files, you can kiss your hobby goodbye.

David

"There is no such thing as "overbuilt"

mg

On this one your just wishful thinking without testing the facts. Your making an uneducated remark, instead of doing any kind of research into this topic. And that's ok, but when you call yourself an audiophile your not selling a very good product.

It's amazing to me how many "audiophiles" are burnt up over a Magnavox CDP that was made for a couple of years being accepted as a reference for many, once modified. Bigger transformers messing with the CDP parts are staring you audiophiles right in the ears and your to blind or to limited in your experience to notice. That's not my problem. Honestly you guys can flip out about this, till every Maggie is gone, and you sell off all your CD's, and I could care less. This shows your lack of knowledge and has little to do with us who have taken the time to do.

finally David says

"please allow the rest of us to discuss high-quality gear"

mg

By all means do Dave! You talk gear, and I'll talk music production and re-production.

Now David, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go to my butcher and buy fresh ground for $2.19 a pound (paper wrapped) while you run to your grocery and pay $3.99 for 85/15 ground chuck (in styrofoam and plastic) allready loosing it's red dye.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Readers

Wanted to invite you over to Ron's System on TuneLand. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t309-ron-s-system

I think it might be interesting to see the same system, another forum.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I think as Stereophile takes on more "doing" projects we will all see the tone change. I'm especially happy with this, cause I think I'll be able to be myself more.

There's so much fine listening to do, that for me at least, a lot of the debates fade cause answers really do come with the "doing" of the hobby.

We're aready having fun with Ron and the others on TuneLand, and invite all who wish to make us an extention of their Stereophile forum experience.

good times

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

I think as Stereophile takes on more "doing" projects we will all see the tone change. I'm especially happy with this, cause I think I'll be able to be myself more.

There's so much fine listening to do, that for me at least, a lot of the debates fade cause answers really do come with the "doing" of the hobby.

We're aready having fun with Ron and the others on TuneLand, and invite all who wish to make us an extention of their Stereophile forum experience.

good times

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

More pompous self serving blather. An extension of the Stereophile forum experience? That's priceless!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica