THR33P4C
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Speakers pop when I turn off my preamp...
Tedrick
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Turn off your amp first.

Seriously, power-on sequence should be pre-amp, sources, then amp. Power-off is just the opposite. This prevents potential transient spikes from the pre-amp or sources from being amplified and sent to the speakers.

And yes, it's probably not the best situation to have your amp plugged into your pre-amp. Depending on the specs of your amp, you may be exceeding the current rating of the pre-amp's power connections. Also, the combined current in-rush from your amp and pre-amp when power up your stereo is all channeling through your pre-amp's power-switch, which may cause a pre-mature failure of the switch. Plug your amp into its own outlet.

mrlowry
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Powering on should be sources, preamp, then amp. Powering off should be amp, preamp, source(s). That way the amp doesn't amplify the small snap that can be caused by the capacitors in the source(s) and preamp from powering up/down. Placing them in the equipment rack with the source(s) at the top, preamp in the middle, and amp on the bottom will help you to remember the proper order. You can also leave preamps and CD players on all of the time. In general (non-tube units) source(s) and preamps use very, very little electricity and can be left on all of the time. That cuts down on warm-up time (audio equipment sounds better after it's been on for a little while) and some feel that it's better for the components long term because they aren't hit with the huge in rush of current (3X or more of their standard operating current) at power up. Others feel that leaving them on will hasten the aging of the parts. It's probably 6 of 1 and half a dozen of another to be honest.

Preamps have relatively small power supplies designed to supply them and maybe a source component (Think CD player, Tuner, phono stage) I try not to plug anything into that outlet unless you really need to. Especially CD players because they generate a lot of electrical noise which being fed into a preamp will raise the noise floor for the entire system.

Plugging the amp into the preamp will severely limit the ability of the amp to draw current because the preamp's power supply will be acting as a bottle neck which will very negatively affect bass. It is therefore a HUGE no-no. It's not dangerous it just can really degrade the sound.

A lot of these things may sound small but they cost nothing and doing them right adds up to real sonic benefits for free!

THR33P4C
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Thank you so much guys...
-Its nice to learn all of this stuff right away from experienced people. I'm really glad I found this forum.

mrlowry. Thanks so much for answering all of my questions completely and thoroughly. You have been a great help to me so far and I really appreciate it

THR33P4C
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Yet another question...

Should I look into a power conditioner? what do they do? what effects to they have on the sound of a system?

As a temporary fix should I plug my amp into its own outlet and everything else into a power strip?

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re power conditioners:

opinions vary as to their effectiveness, but I can honestly say without any shadow of a doubt that I heard the 3rd most dramatic change in my system after I installed my Richard Gray model 400 power conditioners the effect was not subtle.. the background became "black" , no residual noise that had been there prior, just the music springing out of that silent background. cleaned up tv picture too.

THR33P4C
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If I just pick up a rackmount strip conditioner or a panamax from bestbuy would that be worth it? or do I need multiple conditioners for various components?

mrlowry
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Quote:

mrlowry. Thanks so much for answering all of my questions completely and thoroughly. You have been a great help to me so far and I really appreciate it

Ben-

You are welcome I'm glad you've found my advice thorough and helpful. Not only do I try to answer questions I try to explain the reason that I have that opinion so that others can make their own decisions.

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Ben-

Not only does a power condition protect your investment. It can also dramatically lower the noise floor, especially if you live in an apartment complex or dorm room where electricity is particularly dirty because of the number of users. Think of it this way, if you hired the best carpenter in the area to build you a deck the kind of wood you provided to him would still affect the quality of the finished product. The highly skilled individual could build a nice deck even if you skimped and purchased mediocre wood. However if you purchased the best raw materials the deck would be even better. With respect to that analogy electricity is literally the raw material that our components use to make the sound and the components are the carpenters. I prefer the Panamax conditioners to almost everything else on the market, especially Monster.

Below is a post that I wrote for my blog detailing the reasons for my preferences:

Monster power conditioners use MOVs, which have a relatively limited lifespan. After the MOVs are gone MANY times the units continue to pass current to the equipment meaning that the next surge could destroy the connected gear. The Monster units do have a light to indicate that they are no longer protecting the equipment but who wants to depend on a light that they can forget to check?

Panamax uses an avalanche diode that acts almost like a flood gate. It opens when voltage is above or below a safe area, then starts testing the voltage. After the voltage is back within the normal range for 7 seconds Panamax units allow the equipment to receive electricity again. When an avalanche diodes fails they are stuck in the "open" position 99.9% of the time. Meaning that the equipment receives NO electricity so the user knows that the power conditioner needs to be replaced.

Panamax specifies that MOVs are 1000 times slower then their avalanche diodes. At trainings Panamax regularly does a demonstration where they hook up a Panamax and a Monster into a device that can create spikes, then into each unit they plug an illuminated lamp. Both units are then hit with a 150 volt spike. In the 10 or so demos that I

THR33P4C
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Is the old PanaMax MAX 1000+ a decent unit?
http://www.laaudiofile.com/max1000plus.html

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I've not tried any of the expensive power conditioners. But, my experience with the sub $300 variety has been that they make my sytem worse. Still, I've only tried three, but with the same results.

I plug my amp directly into the wall and my source into a different circuit. That's what homeowner's insurance is for.

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Quote:
Is the old PanaMax MAX 1000+ a decent unit?
http://www.laaudiofile.com/max1000plus.html

Ben-

Buying a used power conditioner isn't advisable under most circumstances; unless the owner had it for a very, very short time. Their job is to take a hit and protect the equipment. Max 1000+ was a good unit in it's time, but it's time was 10 years ago! It's taken ten years worth of electrical surges/brownouts. Unit can only takes so many surges before it dies. I worked in the service department for a Panamax dealer for a couple of years and I can confirm that many of the Max 1000 and Max 1000+ are coming to the end of their lives. What's your budget?

THR33P4C
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Ill only spend $50 maximum on a conditioner right now. I can't start breaking into my rent and tuition money for next year. I will email the seller and get some more info on the 1000+

If i decide against getting a used power conditioner should I just use a power strip until this summer when I can spare the money the buy the $200 new panamax?

mrlowry
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The nice thing about the Panamax line is that all of them use the same quality of avalanche diode so the surge protection offered by their least expensive model, which is about $35 is first rate. The major improvement as you go up the line is how well the power conditioning is done. You could get one of the really inexpensive ones for now (I remember how tight money was in college) then move it to protect something else (like your computer) when you get the better one for the audio system.

If you don't have a TV hooked up to the system (directly or indirectly) the PM8-EX (http://www.panamax.com/Products/Floor-Models/PM8-EX.aspx) would be an excellent choice. It's about $35. If you do have a TV hooked up to the system you could use a PM8-HT (http://www.panamax.com/Products/Floor-Models/PM8-HT.aspx) which also protects phone lines and coaxial cable lines (for TV antennas, cable tv, and satellite tv). That sells for about $80. Remember if you have a TV hooked up to the system and the cable that brings in the TV signal doesn't go through the power conditioner then the system is still vulnerable to a surge. Both of those units have a lifetime warranty with only a small charge for shipping out the replacement.

THR33P4C
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I kind of want something nice to sit in my rack

The one panamax 1000+ I am looking at was only used for a few months in the showroom of an audio store...

If I don't win that auction I will probably order the PM8-EX and then get one of the nicer rack models this summer.

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Quote:
I kind of want something nice to sit in my rack

The one panamax 1000+ I am looking at was only used for a few months in the showroom of an audio store...

If I don't win that auction I will probably order the PM8-EX and then get one of the nicer rack models this summer.

Ben-

They haven't made that model in at least 6 years (probably longer) so the statement by the seller probably isn't accurate. To me that would draw the entire description and the honesty of the seller into question. Kind of like the used car salesman who says that the car was owned by a little old lady who only drove it twice a week. Once to church and once to the grocery store and yet the number from last week's race track visit is still in the back window.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all just providing accurate information so that you can make the best decision possible. If you can get it for $50 or less it would be ok but I wouldn't go anywhere near $100.

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Good point...
Here is a link to the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=320331994460

I can probably get a new 4300-Ex for around $100 would that be a safer bet?

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Quote:
Good point...
Here is a link to the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=320331994460

I can probably get a new 4300-Ex for around $100 would that be a safer bet?

Oh, Ya now you're talking. The 4300 has an isolated bank for digital stuff (which helps reduce the amount of pollution from the digital components affecting the analog gear) and a high current outlet. That outlet use slightly less conditioning but doesn't restrict the amount of current to amplifiers which is very important. Those were discontinued less than a year ago so it should be less than 2 or 3 years old.

THR33P4C
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Ok... Ill see if I can pick that one up... I might as well spend the extra money now. It doesn't make sense to buy something for $50 now, and then buy something in the $100-$200 range later, it will be a waste of money in the long run and screw up the dimensions of my cabinet

That will come in a thread down the line... My dad is a general contractor. He has a really nice shop and is an excellent cabinet builder. Him and me are going to build a custom rack for my stereo when he gets back from vacation.

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I have kind of similar problem with THR33P4C, but in the other circumstances. I always do powering off started from amplifier, Pre-amp then finally Source/CD, but my speaker still Pop.
My temporary trick is, mute the pre-amp then start powering off from Amp, Pre-amp and Source/CD.

Do you think there is a leakage problem on the Pre?, say power supply?. How to identify or test that?

mrlowry
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If the power amp has large capacitors they might still have some electricity in them when the power amp is being switched off. Try waiting longer between switching off the power amp and preamp.

THR33P4C
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Just won the New Panamax Max 4300-EX for $103.50
-pretty good deal IMO

Ill probably need help concerning which components get plugged in where on the conditioner. Ill start up a new thread for that once I receive the unit.

Thanks again for the help Mrlowry
-Ben-

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Quote:
Just won the New Panamax Max 4300-EX for $103.50
-pretty good deal IMO

Ill probably need help concerning which components get plugged in where on the conditioner. Ill start up a new thread for that once I receive the unit.

Thanks again for the help Mrlowry
-Ben-

You are welcome. That is a score. The unit has 2 banks. Use one bank for digital products (CD players, Satellite receivers, etc) and one for analog (FM tuners, preamps, turntable, phono stage) and use the high current outlet for the amplifier.

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OMG . . . How did this discussion get so far off the track. A power conditioner has absolutely nothing to do with this problem, which is that the pre-amp or mixer makes a loud noise when powered off. This is then amplified by the power amp which still passes signal for several seconds after power is removed. So although the pop is heard through the speakers, it is not the speakers that are popping at all. It is the pre-amp.
You could turn off the power amps first, then a few seconds later turn off everything else, or buy an expensive power sequencer, which would be like killing a fly with a sledge hammer.
Or you could just get a turn off delay "POP ELIMINATOR" which we sell for 69.95. It is also a spike suppressor as well, though this function is minor and frequently overrated.
The mentioned MONSTER and PANAMAX units are stupendously over priced and really little more than glorified outlet strips. None of them will have ANY effect on audio whatsoever, any more than 3.00 per foot exotic speaker wire. Save your money and spend your time practicing your guitar or reading a book.

sharpie
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Hi, interested in getting a switch that will delay turning off some of my electronics. I think an old Adcom ACE-515 will do exactly what many here are needing to eliminate pops when turning on or off audio equipment but those old Adcom ac enhancers are kind of old and might need retrofitting if you buy one on ebay. Tell me where you are selling yours. Thanks.

WRIGHT_SOUND wrote:

OMG . . . How did this discussion get so far off the track. A power conditioner has absolutely nothing to do with this problem, which is that the pre-amp or mixer makes a loud noise when powered off. This is then amplified by the power amp which still passes signal for several seconds after power is removed. So although the pop is heard through the speakers, it is not the speakers that are popping at all. It is the pre-amp.
You could turn off the power amps first, then a few seconds later turn off everything else, or buy an expensive power sequencer, which would be like killing a fly with a sledge hammer.
Or you could just get a turn off delay "POP ELIMINATOR" which we sell for 69.95. It is also a spike suppressor as well, though this function is minor and frequently overrated.
The mentioned MONSTER and PANAMAX units are stupendously over priced and really little more than glorified outlet strips. None of them will have ANY effect on audio whatsoever, any more than 3.00 per foot exotic speaker wire. Save your money and spend your time practicing your guitar or reading a book.

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