That's right Alan, use your ears and trust what they tell you.

Dave

Good advice, dcstep. Now, what do I do, use yours?

That's good advice, get a Crown amp with some Legacys. Cus Crowns are super stable, and external loads won't change their sound, and teh Legacys will sound great with lotsa WATTS from a very well made Crown, with lotsa WATTS. Crown makes some great stuff. Large venues use em by the dozens. Just finished reading about Prudential Center in Newark, they have like 120 or something, to fill the place with pristine clear audible sounds. And they need reliable stuff, commercial ventures can't have downtime by using crap.

I listen to the VOICES in my head, they usually tell me what to do.

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Good advice, dcstep. Now, what do I do, use yours?

Oh my friend, you'll do fine with your ears and cables. You occupy the rare air level where the differences do indeed get very small. Tube or SS, I suspect that you system is revealing enough to clearly show the differences between CDPs, ICs and cables.

BTW, what do you use? I suspect it's not coat hangers.

Dave

How many times have I told you, NO MORE WIRE HANGERS!!!

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im guessing these are probably not things you listen for however, hence why you cant appreciate the effects of cables on a system.

SLAM!!!!!!!!!!

Whew. I'm glad we settled that debate for the audiophile community. Now what do we talk about?

"Revealing" enough, or unstable electronics that everything makes it act differently? From CD player loads on the pre amps inputs, to the wires connected to the output of the amplfiers? I bet all these "audiophile" experts are confused about what is actually instabilty, poorly designed crap ckts, with some dramatic changes in their junk, that is grossly overpriced and thusly is sypposed to be suprior sounding. If your electronics is so sensitive and UNSTABLE that every little finese thing it sees as a load or input changes it, it's probably junk. And of course you ahave speakers that can reveal stuff at every extreme freq range, and yet these are such revealing electronics, audiophiles keep harping taht tubes are nirvana, when most tube pre amps and amps are highly distorted colored and inherently unstable, thus lending itself to every imaginable change in it function with any change it sees for a load of input or connecting wire. You are confused, probaly a superiro setup doesn't change with each new magic wire, and connector....ever think of that, maybe what you jokers consider "revealing" is an inherent instabilty, which you confuse with this "dramatic" change with every new tweak and strand of wire.

The key to this view is to make the system so opaque that NO change can be heard no matter how large. If some transparency is left, then throw in a really cheap equalizer and tilt the EQ so much that music lovers hold their ears every time that they hear it.

Dave

Since that was a change in the system controls SETTINGS, and very audible, it must mean the system is highly resolving and transparent, otherwise the setting wouldn't change anything, but an equalizer is not like just changing a wire or connector, like so many insist they can hear. Music lover, every week I get in around 4AM after spending the nite listening to LIVE music, usually more than 2 times a week, thus the "memory" of the live event isn't a memory, but a mere few hours hence. And I don't need alcohol to help in the love of LIVE music, (drink seltzer water) unlike so many seem to inbribe in alcohol while listening to RECORDED music, and claim that their's is like the memory of something they heard, yet is it the alcohol fooling them?, you know how good that girl looks after a few drinks, until morning, then all the clicks and pops come right to the surface. And LP vinyl doesn't help, it's the ugly girl of teh audio world, lotsa warts, bloated sound, snap crackle pop....Vinyl, when you need an excuse to DRINK?

AND anotehr thing, you are obviously unfamilar with RANE, it's hardly cheap equipment, just not "audiophile" pricing!.....2 strikes one more and your views are OUT!!!!! You will probably hit a few more foul balls before you completely strike out

And a THIRD thang, I actually have planned on some more mics and amixer so that I can record more of the LIVE event, and playback on the opauge system, and since I recorded it, I was there, the live event, is all there, and I can hone my skills in playing with recording the live event. mic placement is super important, as well as what mic ya use....the WIRES need to be proper type for the hard use they get connected, disconnecting, wrap em up, unwrap, dragged around, stuff spilled on em, just last nite. The diffeernt venuse are HUGHE sonic differences, man o man, one place sounds like a boom fest, the other pristine clarity. Keepin it live in my mind, means recording it. Not changing some dopey speaker wire, and proclaiming ya can hear how much more lifelike it is, come on, the wire is NOT changing the acoustics of the original or your place, it is not expanding teh soundstage or delineation of anything, it's giving ad makers, room to perfect their poetry of nonsense. A wall outlet doesn't have any sound, neither do those "better sounding" iwires. Remeber, most reviewers know the ads, know the price, know the absurd claims, BEFORE they give the writeups, and make the claims of mystical improvements. Never found a live event inside the wrapper of a wire.

Who's drinking???

You're not? that's even worse, you think this way sober? And i wasn't refering necessarily on you, but in a bunch of write ups, posts, always about enjoying this or that drink, etc.....don't drink and listen, it soon will be outlawed, to increase revenue for local towns, first they come for teh underage drinkers in private homes, then legal age music listeners, Fahrenheit 454, 1984 Metropolis,etc coming to a town near you. When they ban TUBES cus it's toxic when disposed ( and mfg'd, which is why it all wound up in Russia and China), there will be a black market on tubes, turf wars for 12Ax7(A), colors, denoting which brand you claim sounds better..it's gonna get ugly,

And yet another thread is driven into the ground by DUP.

I know, it's getting seriously bonkers here. WTF, DUP. Chillax.

Well said Alan, despite what follow up may come from parties all too well known here.

Dave

An interesting journey. It takes an open mind to reevaluate as you have.

I, too, find that any meaningful upgrade makes all types of music sound better.

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there will be a black market on tubes, turf wars for 12Ax7(A)...

Love the addition of the "(A)" in the middle of your rant, dup.

There's that "open mind" manta again. What's the difference between and "open mind" and just an empty one? And of course those classical recordings you listen to, are made on what kind of PRO equipment? Hmmm mixing consoles, mics, just like any other recording, like blues and rock. And of course you have never heard a horrible sounding classical recording? Actually Behringer is not so great,don't use any of it. And of course a good classical recording that has some dynamics to it, doesn't require watts to reproduce it. Just cus' you have lost interest in listening to music with some energy, and moved over to some age appropriate, you hanging with the old generation now? Doesn't mean that music with emotion and energy (Buddy Guy 72 and CRANKIN'!) Isn't well done both in teh studio and home reproduction, you just moved over to Strings by Montavoni and stuff that was called "beautiful music" on the failed radio formats of the past. It's a false premise that somehow classical is teh only way to hear music nuances etc, it just means you've been taken over by the body snatchers, and lost anything of interest in things with some life and energy left in it. It sucks getting old don't it?

No one ever said that classical is the only worthy music. I think the point was that it's a good measure of a system. Because you get to hear it without sound reinforcement, then when you hear the same thing recorded, it present a good comparison.

If a system can make classical music sound natural, then it's going to sound good with all forms of music, including the illustrious Buddy Guy. (I've seen Buddy live two-times. He puts on a great show and his stuff sounds great on my system).

Dave

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It takes an open mind to reevaluate as you have.

Translation:

Alan has actively pursued listening to a form of music which was previously unfamiliar to him and, in so doing, is open to learning new things about what is important to him in sound reproduction.

Very cool!

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No one ever said that classical is the only worthy music. I think the point was that it's a good measure of a system. Because you get to hear it without sound reinforcement, then when you hear the same thing recorded, it present a good comparison.

If a system can make classical music sound natural, then it's going to sound good with all forms of music, including the illustrious Buddy Guy. (I've seen Buddy live two-times. He puts on a great show and his stuff sounds great on my system).

Dave

Exactly, I couldn't have said it more concisely!

SEe you agree, Buddy Guy is terrific.......

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SEe you agree, Buddy Guy is terrific.......

No doubt. It would take a fool to dispute that.

We have acknowledged Buddy Guy and other talented artists, such as Bill Frisell, long ago.

DUP you need to get out more. You are missing a lot.

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SEe you agree, Buddy Guy is terrific.......

The fact that Buddy Guy is great in no way reduces the artistry of Mozart, Miles Davis, or Metallica. I know it's a revolutionary idea.

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DUP

Im not sure if you deliberately just bait people...

...said he while swallowing the bait, hook, line and sinker.

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I have no problem with Buddy Guy, hes not my taste but im sure hes well liked by a lot people. I find him very one dimensional and predictable.

Im not sure if you deliberately just bait people or you are dumb, blues is probably the most compressed undynamic form of music that exists. It is designed to be played on cheap basic guitar amps with no range whatsoever. You seem to confuse volume of sound and noise with dynamics, they are entirely different things.

Both as a guitar player and an audiophile I take exception to this. Granted, many of the great blues artists of the past century have been appallingly poorly recorded (Robert Johnson, early Buddy Guy, early Muddy Waters), but there is nothing about blues guitar that requires it to be played on "cheap basic guitar amps with no range whatsoever." Quite the contrary. The low-powered amps were chosen as much for their dynamic range (being able to go from clean to distorted with a flick of the guitar's volume knob) as for their cheapness.

Chess Records, sadly, was as mediocre a studio as it was brilliant a collection of musicians. Buddy Guy's recordings are great for historical value and performance, but terrible for sound. Howlin' Wolf sounded better on Modern (recorded 1951-52) than on Chess, though many of his classic performances are only available as compressed, trebly messes on Chess. Same with John Lee Hooker, though in his case, the Modern sides (late 40's) are transfers from 78, and they *still* sound better than the Chess sides. Thank the blues gods that most of his best singles were on Modern. Muddy Waters wasn't well-served by recording technology until the very end of his career, when Johnny Winter made sure that he got the studio attention he deserved-- and some of those recordings have a dynamic range of better than 50db. (And I'm talking about the vinyl-- I imagine the CDs are even better on dynamics. Check out "Hard Again," "Muddy 'Mississippi' Waters Live" and "I'm Ready," all on Blue Sky/Columbia.)

No dynamics? Have you ever heard B.B. King's "Live at the Regal?" One of the most dynamic electric guitar tones ever-- a sound that meshes with the horn section so well that you can almost believe B.B. when he says his primary influence was Louis Jordan.

If you want *sound,* ignore Buddy Guy's albums on Chess, and get the ones on Delmark and Vanguard, especially anything with Junior Wells. Dynamic and three-dimensional as all hell. The more recent ones on Silvertone are pretty damn good, too. I'm partial to "Sweet Tea," where you can hear Guy stretch out, not limited by the pressures of a 3-minute single. Some of the best guitar tones this side of Jeff Beck.

And if you want to talk white guys, give a listen to Derek and the Dominoes' "Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs." Some of the best sound Clapton and Allman ever got (even with the often drugged out mix), and all but two or three tracks are straight blues. Grab Fleetwood Mac's (no Lindsay Buckingham jokes, please) Live at the Boston Tea Party. Volume one is the best, but two and three have their moments. Peter Green was never recorded better, and he arguably never played better. (Les Paul, Orange amp, if you care) Stevie Ray's version of "Tin Pan Alley" goes from a whisper to a scream (and uses an audiophile-approved Dumble amp). Hell, Zep's "Since I've Been Loving You" has about as much dynamic range (and feel) as you can get out of a '59 Les Paul and a Supro, which turns out to be about the limits of vinyl. And don't get me started on Rory Gallagher, who may have defined the Stratocaster sound more than Vaughan did.

And once in a while, even the old black guys got recorded well. Listen to some of Lonnie Johnson's work from the 20s with Louis Armstrong. "Savoy Blues" is some of the greatest rhythm guitar ever recorded, electric or acoustic, by anyone. And all that's left are the 78s. Which turn out to be much, much better than you'd think.

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...said he while swallowing the bait, hook, line and sinker.

Hardly.

Re-read what Alan wrote. It's thoughtful; hardly the simplistic backlash DUP seeks.

Quote:

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...said he while swallowing the bait, hook, line and sinker.

Hardly.

Re-read what Alan wrote. It's thoughtful; hardly the simplistic backlash DUP seeks.

It's thoughtful, but I still don't think it's correct. There's no question that orchestral music is diabolically difficult to reproduce, even with a good system. 90% of the classical music out there is recorded in a fairly mediocre manner. Even if strings sound right, which is rare, it's excruciatingly uncommon to find brass that sounds real.

(I'll digress here and recommend the new Naxos recording of Hovhaness' 2nd Guitar Concerto. Great album, brilliantly recorded. The guitar is only recorded above-average, but the rest of the orchestra is stunningly real. And the music is great, to boot, which is a relief, given how uneven Hovhaness was.)

For that reason, orchestral music is a great test of a system. As Art Dudley has said, if a system can do Mahler, it's good. To reproduce that kind of texture with the kind of dynamics from a symphony orchestra is just...astounding. But in terms of actual *dynamics*, most classical music doesn't have the range of electric music. Metallica goes from 105db to silence, often repeatedly in the same riff. It's a rare symphony that goes from ppppp to fffff. (Mahler and Bruckner are not typical by any means) If I had to make an educated guess, having done a fair bit of recording in my time, most modern chamber music has more dynamic range than most Mozart. Certainly the dynamic difference between pizzicato transients and silence in say, Bartok's 5th string quartet is much greater than anything Wolfgang A. did in the Symphony #40. And I'll bet if we dragged John Marks into this conversation, he'd tell us that the difference in volume between say, a piccolo 2 stop and a plain jeu V on a decent sized organ is something truly staggering. But, all questions of taste aside, something like Ministry (the industrial band, not some kind of church music) has *way* more dynamic range than all but the largest organs. Silence, 120db power chord, silence is a lot more dynamic than all but the weirdest and most experimental classical music. The classical music may have greater *shades* of dynamic, just owing to the fact that you've got more gradations with a 160 piece orchestra than with 2 electric guitars, a bass, and a drum kit, but....

Tab Benoit is also great, Lonnie Brooks, lotsa great musicans. Hardly compressed music played on cheap equipment. Some heads are like $3500 30W TUBES Class A...meant to saturate and sound terrific in MAKING the music, those Les Pauls ain't CHEAP either...ever price a 59' original? And it gets down to some science, string dimensions, for differnt tone, pickups wound differently, some real electrical stuff, not voodo. Get the SACD of Stevie Ray Vaughan playing with albert King "Sessions"....it's got some great dynamics, the sound is terrific....and ENERGY, emotion....it's not background music like much classical stuff is. Cheap insturments, !!! Eric Claptons old Fender beat up guitar went on audtion and sold for over $700,000 SRV's beat up Fender is in reproduction selling for a fortune, nutin' CHEAP about real music BLUES. Checkout teh KOMT or FUCHS amp heads..... Get Buddy Guy to play at your live event, see how cheap he is.....if ya can't afford him try www.mattoree.com Checkout what Acoustic Sounds is doing in their studio the refurbished church in Kansas.....Blue Heaven Studios, some great work going on out there, as he trys to preserve the music......Besides Bethoven was short wasn't he? short people have no reason..........Then ya put in the Hammond B3, which has a full spectrum of dynamcis and range...nothing dull about it.

You misconstrue my remarks. Tubes are used to make the sound not REPRODUCE it, thus for hi fi, they are useless, when they over drive them into DISTORTION that is the sound the musicans want. When I reproduce that sound they made originally, surely you won't want tubes at home adding more distortion, thus, SS MOSFETS that don't distort, only deliver what is on the recordings. Besides the pickups, the wood, the strings, etc. on a guitar. And a master musican can make any guitar sing....also most musicans have dozens of different guitars, for differetn modes that they want to do. Stratocasters sound much different than Les Pauls, while Gretsch sounds in the middle. Heck there are $179 Chinese swag, that can be made so sing by a real good musican, guitar gurus can play anything, and make great music. Seen it done. The effects of a cable on a guitar sound is negated when they do it WIRELESS, yet Les Pauls still sound different than the Fender. Look inside teh most expensive Les Paul, the wiring inside is pretty basic, no magic needed, it's in the wood, the coils, the strings, all verifiable, not magic BS, like how an AC plug sounds better than a Boogie ShunBoogie one is claimed. Then they run teh guitar though multiple or sometimes only one box for different effects, all depends on the mood. Tube Screamer, highly DISTORTED sound maker, not pristine HI FI, get to know the differences. Ever see the original Les Paul prototype, it was a 2X4 mounted onto a cut in half Epiphone....checkout some hisory of Les Paul 92 and still plays every week in NYC. so your 2X4 reference was perfect!!!

Wow, this thread has me flashing back...

...to DUP's spam posts of 2006, 2007 (except August and December, for some reason, and Jan and Feb of this year, as well,) March 08, April 08, May 08, June 08, and even the first week of this month.

On this thread, DUP has deftly managed to combine topics #1 and #4 of his six total.

Question - if we moved this discussion to the Cable Forum, would we be DUP-free there?