For every good PA rig there are 100 bad ones.
I have recently seen Richard Thompson and his band
The venue,Symphony Hall, Birmingham
A modern 2000+ seat, classical hall of great virtue (Simon Rattle)
I have seen RT many times in many configurations
His soundman has been his companion for years
We sat in front of his mixer
The PA was a small muscular Martin line array
Plenty of headroom and level
But no articulation
Couldn't hear the aserbic lyrics.
Ive heard the best concert of my life (Ry Cooder and David Lindley)in that hall
So what gives?
PA is a mystery to the hifi fraternity.
Roger imho

This would be incredibly frustrating. The best of Richard Thompson is his lyrics and his amazing guitar skills.

Isn't Richard Thompson dead?

You just said it. Lots of air, detail, life, and no "electronic" intrusions. That is where Hi-Fi begins.

Usually, the epiphany occurs in some sort of hall with a live person (or group of them) in front of you, playing music. Even if there appears to be an amplification system hooked up to the musician(s), it doesn't really matter.

Double-blind doesn't pick this up. It is either there or it isn't. If it is there, you know it. If it isn't, you squirm around and mentally wonder "why." I suspect you didn't feel any need for a second sound source and a blindfold to validate your instant reaction.

I have over 2500 LP's. I can pull about 1/3 of them out and experience what you describe. I have no CD's (including SACD's) that can quite pull this off. Some come close -- but it's not quite there...

A thousand blindfolds and sensory-challenged bogus comparisons can't dispute the "presence" of the live experience. It is either there or it isn't.

Go figure. If it is truly right, you don't need a blind second look.

Happy listening.

Quote:
Isn't Richard Thompson dead?

Not when I saw him 2 weeks ago.
He was larger than life when playing and singing his heart out
But subdued for his stage banter which can be magnificently wry.
I think the intelligability was mudded by the stage monitors
I heard a jazz sextet playing recently with no PA
Now that was Hifi....
Just like my Roy Du Nann records from the 50/60's on Contempary.
Thats were hifi began in that storage room studio and in Deccas Kingsway Hall.

Roger
IMHO

Hi, All,

I have attended numerous live amplified performances, both indoors and outdoors, and have run sound for a bunch of (mostly acoustic-instrument folk and traditional music) performances myself.

When I run the sound myself (often using the performers' own rig that I first see just before the performance) I shoot for "sound reinforcement" rather than just loud. I try to get the sound just loud enough that the folks in the back can hear the music, but still have the illusion of natural, unamplified sound.

NOW... at most of the concerts and amplified performances I've attended over the past 20 years or so, especially outdoor festivals, the sound is so loud I have to wear earplugs, and is often so horribly EQ'ed as to be almost intolerable. The treble is often boosted until it sounds like my head is actually stuffed into a tweeter horn!

And this includes some internationally known acts in top venues, the sound run by the artists' own technicians or local professionals.

The "sound technicians" I see at the local/regional outdoor festivals are usually contracted to do the show, and run sound for all sorts of different genres of music, from rock to country to salsa to folk/traditional, and they use the same stacks of cabinet/horn speakers and racks of electronic gear for it all.

The sound guys are often fairly young, and from their attitudes and mannerisms appear to me to be convinced that not only are they "artists" (God's gift to pro sound), but that somehow they don't think the current gig is quite worth their time. I get the impression that a bunch of "sound technicians" feel rock and hip-hop are the only "important" genres, and they do a LOT of shows, cranked up as loudly as possible.

My point to this post? I am convinced that the reason most performances are uncomfortably loud and horribly EQ'ed is that the sound technicians are DEAF!! So much exposure to loud sound has damaged their hearing to the point that they think the horrible sound we're all experiencing sounds great!

Ken

i agree with ken. i attended a pink floyd knockoff show in a very nice venue recently. i wished for a pair of earplugs, but it would not have helped. of course you could feel the bass in your chest and your ears were ringing. it was like the tech took the sliders and made a classic U with them, the words were hard to hear.
of course, this is probably what pink floyd sounded like live back in the day.

tom collins

Nicely put Ken. I might add that when I have seen and talked to the techs, they really did not seem that professional or knowledgable to me.

Just my .02 worth.

this is probably what pink floyd sounded like live back in the day.

tom collins

Sorry Tom
The Floyd have always had the best kit
Even in 66 when I first saw them in London they had custom
PA and FX
I even sold David Gilmour a pair of KEF Concertos,
They own Brittania Row , top UK concert sound sound dry hire
Gilmore's Astoria, his floating Thames studio was given a Tim DaPavinci work over and they are keen users of cones and power conditioners.
Gilmours live 'Festival Hall' is the quietest for stage noise ever.
However few PA engineers can aspire to a Floyd rig, or even know how to drive it.
I think stage monitors are the bane of FOH PA.
They colour and swamp the main mix
However artists demand foldback and seem to dislike In Ear Monitors which can cause pitching problems.
Sound Reinforcement is what we need

Roger

IMHO

You nailed it, Ken, both the attitude of the :engineers" and the resulting sound.

I like your concept of sound reinforcement. Perfect.