Recognizing what we have not previously seen is at the heart of this hobby; is it not? Who before Linn recognized the importance of a turntable? Did you always believe cables could improve your system? When you consider the history of consumer audio there are more than a few examples of awakening to a new reality or accepting an idea you thought couldn't make an improvement. And there are always more than a few naysayers who have preferred not to try something or have approached the matter with a closed mind. I don't think you missed what I meant, rgibran. If this sort of cable cannot work in your system, I understand why you wouldn't try them. It requires a system that does not ask the components to jump through hoops just to produce possibly quite incoherent sound due to phase and timing errors. What you hear is what you hear. What I hear is likely not the same.

My cables haven't broken and IMO they sound better than anything else I can afford. I have a bag full of old cables heavy enough to use as a boat anchor sitting in my closet. I'm not new to this hobby and I know what live music sounds like. I understand the technical merits and demerits of what I am suggesting.

Tell me again why this cannot work. Tell me again why I cannot be hearing what I claim exists. Do you believe I'm the one who's deaf?

I wouldn't trust someone's ears if they couldn't hear differences in cables. This isn't to say that every cable will sound completely different from another, but they aren't much different than the differences in components.

When you consider differences in how people place speakers, how different their rooms are, their particular taste in music and a whole host of other variables, it's understandable why some people's experience with different cables run from the amazed to the ho hum.

Perhaps rooms and speaker placement prevent some from hearing the changes if those changes are mostly masked by existing room characteristics. Maybe others hear improvements or differences when the cable characteristics compliment the room and speaker placement characteristics. Certainly amplifier designs can be assisted or hindered by various cable designs.

Why you can't be hearing what you tell yourself you are hearing? Self HYPNOSIS!!! And you just wanna believe, same as religious kooks....they "believe" in the boogieman, magic rocks, all kinds of stuff, just cus' one crazy believes it's true doesn't mean the sane people do.....or that anythign is happening. That's why there are medications and doctors that specialze in the brain that doesn't work normally.

After reading these posts, 30 gauge is not thick enough to hang myself, need at least 12ga.......you guys are nuts!!!!

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After reading these posts, 30 gauge is not thick enough to hang myself, need at least 12ga

If you're offering, I have some spare 12 A.W.G. Hell, I'll go buy new!

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Not to mention the differences between our actual hearing-variables such as Ear Wax, Work related hearing loss,etc,etc,,

Ooooooooh, those are sensitive subjects with dup.

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My point Dup is everybody and everybody's perception of the world (music included) is different,and your ravings merely reveal a frightened little boy who badly needs a hug.

I can't wait! This should be good.

Or bad, depending ...

Yeah, it's gonna be bad. Oh, well, you tried, drumguy, you tried.

You ain't be hugging no one...stand back 500feet, make beleive I'm a fire truck.....leave teh hose alone. The 30 ga wire for speakers is still RETARDED, hugs or no hugs. The rational getting to teh conclusion that you are and can hear an improvement is also illogical. Don't care how different we hear, 30 gauge speaker wire is the dumbest thing I've read yet, might even beat green pens or demagnetizing plastic records. The wire on my cell phone ear pice has thicker wire than that..it oeprates hardly in a few milliwatts....aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg. Scoth tape the speaker leaads......high end is really gone nutzo.

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Point to point wiring is better than circuit traces because they're all copper for one thing. Are your circuit board traces all copper? answer teh quesion! PtP wiring is better because it is generally more cleanly laid out and separates the signal from the ground plane. Do your circuit traces do that? Probably not. PtP is better because it uses a better dielectric suited to the requirements of the circuit, Teflon in the case of my amps - changed when I redid the caps, so don't go wondering how Teflon got in a 45 year old amp. What dielectric do your traces have? Paste? PtP wiring is better because it maintains the correct gauge of cable used for each circuit requirement. Do your circuit board traces vary in thickness? You said " ... the wires that go to the output bananna plugs for teh speakers are thick ... " I didn't ask about the wires that lead away from the circuit board, dup, and you know that. It's amazing how dumb you can get when the circumstances aren't in your favor.

What "gauge" are the traces on your main circuit boards? How about the traces from the output transistors to the "thick cables"? Are they as thick as the cable? probably not. They're only about a centimeter thick on the board, you know. Are they all copper? You need lots of copper to get current through to the speakers, yaknow! If they aren't all copper, what else is in the trace? What other metals? What about the circuit boards in your speakers? All the drivers share the same ground plane on one circuit board? That's not good, dup. Lots of crosstalk between drivers. Your tweeters are driving your woofers, dup! All the components in the crossover have nice, thick 10 gauge leads? All copper leads? 10 gauge copper leads on those capacitors? All how many? If not, you're loosing as much current through those leads as you are through that little skinny fuse. Nobody with any kind of hearing uses fuses in their speakers, dup. 10 A.W.G. cables that feed to a fuse?! You might as well run 30 A.W.G. cables from the amp to the speakers. Sheesh! Push on connectors? Do you disconnect them every six months to clean the oxidation off the contacts? The speakers have 10 gauge wire from the push on connector to the voice coil? That must really hinder movement of the driver to have to haul 10 gauge cable back and forth. No wonder your speakers have such low distortion, they can't move.

All these things that are wrong with your stuff, dup! Don't you wish now you were an audiophile so you'd know not to do these things? I'm sorry, dup, you're too deluded to know what to believe.

Check back on those traces and let me know what metals are on the board. Like I said, want to tell me again how good tin sounds?

It's probably a pretty sure bet that any PCB traces are copper, those that aren't are gold. Also there seems to be confusion about wire diameter vs. its current carrying ability. The factor that many out there is neglecting is that length is also a factor. For a short length of wire, it can carry more current with less voltage drop than a longer wire of the same size.
Bottom line, small, short connections are just fine, while longer wire runs like speaker connections need a larger diameter to reduce it's effect on the connection.
An effect that some seem to prefer.

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Cyclebrain seems to have left the discussion so I'll pose this to anyone who wishes to take a crack at an answer. If one of the faults of this thin cable speaker hook up is increased output impedance and the resulting frequency shifts engendered by combining such with a dynamic impedance curve in the speaker employed, what are we to make of Robert Reina's review of the $10k Audio Research 110 in the August issue? Measurements indicate an output impedance that is high enough to affect frequency response with most speakers. While RR's Alon Circes are not difficult to drive their impedance plot is rather dramatic in its peaks and valleys. http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/323/index5.html

Lets make things even more confusing and copy a post from the twin site over here.
Again we must look at the overall system. The speaker does have a pretty big variation in its impedance vs frequency plot, it's not just the variation but also the absolute values. Since the absolute values don't go very low, it will reduce it's effect with a higher source impedance.
If the source to load ratio is low then load variations will have greater impact.
BTW I only read posts on Friday and Saturdays

So this should just be a auditory nivana, thin, covered in somehting from a food bowl in teh rrefrigerator, some nice obsolete looking cord caps, and of course no UL or ETL or any other standards testing marks, hey, it's only plugged into a 15A line in your house!!! We don't need no stinking normal wires, we need wire that sounds good right? http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/powercord.php

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It's probably a pretty sure bet that any PCB traces are copper, those that aren't are gold.

Thank you for that, cyclebrain. I got the feeling dup wasn't really sure and didn't want to go check for fear of what he might find out.

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An effect that some seem to prefer.

Oooooh, I just hate when you get snotty.

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Lets make things even more confusing and copy a post from the twin site over here.
Again we must look at the overall system. The speaker does have a pretty big variation in its impedance vs frequency plot, it's not just the variation but also the absolute values. Since the absolute values don't go very low, it will reduce it's effect with a higher source impedance.
If the source to load ratio is low then load variations will have greater impact.
BTW I only read posts on Friday and Saturdays

I assume you are laying blame at my feet that the thread was split. Might I remind you that had dup not made several inappropriate posts this would all have been one thread and no editting would have ocurred. Thank you very much!

So, I have a speaker with a far more constant impedance and very low electrical phase angle (only slightly inductive due to the presence of a voice coil - sorry, just can't get away from that at this price) compared to RR's and yet you prefer, for your own reasons, to suggest my system suffers from errors you quite easily dismiss in RR's system and that I am listening through a flawed system while RR is not. How interesting.

Thank you for letting me know you are an infrequent visitor.

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I would have bet one whole paycheck that I would never have heard enough difference to justify $300 in two sets of IC

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/interconnects/interconnects.html

Wrong...the mfg of my speakers says in teh instruction manual, the only thing that matters in speaker wires are D.C. resistance, thus the proper guage for teh length, and speaker load to teh amps...So thikcer is better, at auduio freqs Xc and Xl don't come into play, for teh umpteenth time!!!! Use teh proepr guage it works, without regards to magic insulations and braids and other insanitys. 16,14,12,10 guage, not to the absurd eitehr like some 000 gauge.....use your logic

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use your logic

Good one, dup. That's funny coming from you.

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Wrong...the mfg of my speakers says in teh instruction manual, the only thing that matters in speaker wires are D.C. resistance, . . .

Then it must be true!

Maybe we should all get a copy of that manual? It could simplify our life just as it has dup's.

Interesting read.
Thanks, Jan!

I'd like to close this particular thread here, on a good note. Thanks.