"And the hockey puckers would say perhaps you need better ears!"

But I didn't say that. You did.

Perhaps I simply cannot hear a real change but in the case of those pucks, I doubt it. I also cannot turn lead to gold and not fly each and every full moon. Perhaps some can but not I.

"Perhaps I simply cannot hear a real change but in the case of those pucks, I doubt it."

I wouldn't worry too much. Probably one of those self-fulfilling prophecy things. :-)

gk

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For that is the only way those things would do anything at all, with a lot of reliance on magic, spells, and blood ritual.

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I always felt that when I had the Linn guru (witch-doctor?) to tune my early LP 12 he wasn't tuning the damned thing so much as exorcising the demon spirit of Mr Ivor Tefunbaum.

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My 'setting up the turntable' ritual involves more expletives and on several occasions, blood sacrifice as I poke myself with small sharp tools.

Can we keep the sex bits out of this please? Seriously though, since moving over to VPI's range of turntables I've felt no need for expletives. A very calming and satisfying way to go.

But how do your expensive hockey pucks sound?

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But how do your expensive hockey pucks sound?

I'm insulted that you'd think I have any. I've 'listened' to a system with and without them installed and damned if I could hear any difference. Mind you my skepticism may have been preventing me appreciating their wondrous contribution.

But they are astounding...ask the manufacturer and the folk who have paid perhaps 100 times their manufacturing cost.

I put those things into the 'one born every second' category of tweaks.

Here is the magazine's take on the nutty fad.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/69/

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They cost $50 each, so you can buy a few to experiment with in your system and then buy a few more, which I know you'll do after hearing them.

JS - 1994...snake oil legitimized.

"They work for some people, if those people know they are in place.
Knowing that they are in place is an integral part of how they work. It is necessary...and then the tweaks function. They stop working when the user is unaware of whether or not they are present."

Now that's funny! Humor is the best medicine.

:-)

"Mind you my skepticism may have been preventing me appreciating their wondrous contribution."

We call that the Nocebo Effect, Placebo Effect's ugly twin. Think of the Nocebo Effect as a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, that's close enough for now.

:-)

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"Mind you my skepticism may have been preventing me appreciating their wondrous contribution."

We call that the Nocebo Effect, Placebo Effect's ugly twin. Think of the Nocebo Effect as a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, that's close enough for now.

:-)

geoff, your brilliant insights are like pebbles dropped into a timeless aural sea whose ripples teleport us to an alternate universe unbound by the clocks of man.

"They both require that you know they are there, and you must believe they will work."

Wow, this just gets better and better! I laughed so hard milk shot out of my nose.

:-)

How to Win a Debate with a Skeptic

1. Start by telling skeptics you want to

Geoff, is that how you built Machina Dynamics ?

Who says die hard skeptics don't have a sensa humor?

:-)

"If you're going to copy something, copy something good." - Ed Kinko

Buddha, you get the gold star for best detective work on the thread.

Quick on the uptake...

:-)

So Machina Dynamica is our 1st post modern tweak company.
I'm beginning to like this.

The deconstructionist skeptic must buy the pebbles and recognize that they work precisely because they don't work thus instilling a sense of ironic aural superiority which imbues the listener with a more satisfying aural experience.
Which means the pebbles do work because they don't.

Geoff, I do like your sense of humor.

The dis-ease is apparently catching.

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............The deconstructionist skeptic must buy the pebbles and recognize that they work precisely because they don't work thus instilling a sense of ironic aural superiority which imbues the listener with a more satisfying aural experience.
Which means the pebbles do work because they don't.

Can we PLEASE,PLEASE keep that obscene branch of so called philosophy out of this place?

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The dis-ease is apparently catching.

At ease , no dis's allowed.

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............The deconstructionist skeptic must buy the pebbles and recognize that they work precisely because they don't work thus instilling a sense of ironic aural superiority which imbues the listener with a more satisfying aural experience.
Which means the pebbles do work because they don't.

Can we PLEASE,PLEASE keep that obscene branch of so called philosophy out of this place?

Does it appear retrograde to you, does it induce a fugue like state ?

no dis's allowed.

No data either. Guess the easy chair's a mite too comfortable for the weary skeptic.

:-)

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no dis's allowed.

No data either. Guess the easy chair's a mite too comfortable for the weary skeptic.

:-)

Do you supply data for your products ?

What data would ease your worried mind? :-)

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song. Any data that could ease that worried mind?

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"It's just very hard for me to understand how installing a low-capacitance, shielded power cord on the last 5 feet of a 120v circuit can make a difference given all the romex in your walls and the miles of distribution on the source side that is subject to all the rf interference and other nasties out there."

Note to self: Do not bring up the subject of audiophile fuses on this thread as the fuse conducting element is 100 times shorter than a Power Cord.

:-)

Geoff-

When it comes to power cords I'm a middle of the road guy. In my mind they do make a difference but spending as much on the power cord as you did on the component is just plain silly. A great way to try them would be cheaply would be to look for sales on older model PS audio cords or check out HCM's deal on the old audioquest AC-15's (http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=1231) Below is something that I've posted in the past that might make the whole "power cord thing" make more sense.

The main argument against power cords being able to create audible difference is that the power cord is NOT in the signal path, this is false. An amplifier, for example simply modulates the power coming out of the wall to produce a larger version of the signal that it receives as an input. Hence the power supply is in the signal path. Hence, in my opinion the power cord IS in the signal path in a very real sense.

Interestingly this theory of mine was helped to form by McIntosh labs who believes that their power supplies are in the signal path and are major contributors to that "MAC sound." What's ironic is that McIntosh doesn't believe in high end speaker cables or interconnects, let alone power cords. Mac has been very public about this belief. Only recently at trade shows did they start using better interconnects and speaker cable, just to "shut people up." The IEC socket of a removable power cord does compromise the connection slightly but allows for much better power cables to be used, a slight step backwards for the possibility of a couple of major steps forwards. But the same cord soldered directly to the power supply versus being removable and connected to an IEC socket would be the best solution.

Other arguments brought against power cords have to do with the fact that the last 6 feet can

Buddha - I hope you don't mind too much if I refer to you as a pseudo-skeptic.

:-)

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Here's the original complete version:

That is awesome! What's the origin?

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"It's just very hard for me to understand how installing a low-capacitance, shielded power cord on the last 5 feet of a 120v circuit can make a difference given all the romex in your walls and the miles of distribution on the source side that is subject to all the rf interference and other nasties out there."

Note to self: Do not bring up the subject of audiophile fuses on this thread as the fuse conducting element is 100 times shorter than a Power Cord.

:-)

Geoff-

When it comes to power cords I'm a middle of the road guy. In my mind they do make a difference but spending as much on the power cord as you did on the component is just plain silly. A great way to try them would be cheaply would be to look for sales on older model PS audio cords or check out HCM's deal on the old audioquest AC-15's (http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=1231) Below is something that I've posted in the past that might make the whole "power cord thing" make more sense.

The main argument against power cords being able to create audible difference is that the power cord is NOT in the signal path, this is false. An amplifier, for example simply modulates the power coming out of the wall to produce a larger version of the signal that it receives as an input. Hence the power supply is in the signal path. Hence, in my opinion the power cord IS in the signal path in a very real sense.

Interestingly this theory of mine was helped to form by McIntosh labs who believes that their power supplies are in the signal path and are major contributors to that "MAC sound." What's ironic is that McIntosh doesn't believe in high end speaker cables or interconnects, let alone power cords. Mac has been very public about this belief. Only recently at trade shows did they start using better interconnects and speaker cable, just to "shut people up." The IEC socket of a removable power cord does compromise the connection slightly but allows for much better power cables to be used, a slight step backwards for the possibility of a couple of major steps forwards. But the same cord soldered directly to the power supply versus being removable and connected to an IEC socket would be the best solution.

Other arguments brought against power cords have to do with the fact that the last 6 feet can

Perhaps but you may want to get you hands on a copy of basic electricity 101

If there are specific things that are incorrect please enlighten me instead of throwing out a blanket dismissal. My basic points are:

1. Preamplifiers and power amplifiers do not increase the size of the original signal. They re-create the signal by modulating the incoming electricity. FACT

2. The form of electricity that we use in our homes is different from the way that the power company distributes it over long distances. The electricity in our homes is more vulnerable to interference. FACT

3. All things being equal thicker gauge wire offers less resistance to electricity. FACT.

4. Better shielding reduces EMI and RFI interference. FACT

5. Better contact equals better conductivity. FACT.

Now you could dispute the conclusion that the difference will be audible. That's your right. But the above FACTS make it at least POSSIBLE for there to be differences that are audible. The flippant remark is pure laziness on your part, take it point-by-point and show my FACTS are wrong. I believe very firmly that we learn something every day, I'm ready for you to teach me. Or are you just interested in tearing other people down?

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If there are specific things that are incorrect please enlighten me instead of throwing out a blanket dismissal. My basic points are:

1. Preamplifiers and power amplifiers do not increase the size of the original signal. They re-create the signal by modulating the incoming electricity. FACT

They do in fact amplify or increase the AUDIO signal not to be confused with the 120V AC current and voltage which powers them which is what we are discussing. The 120V signal is not in the signal path, not even close. That is wrong.

2. The form of electricity that we use in our homes is different from the way that the power company distributes it over long distances. The electricity in our homes is more vulnerable to interference. FACT

Not sure where you heard this one but that is wrong also unless you have concluded that low voltage (120VAC) is more susceptible to interference than MV. The point is moot anyway. An amplifier's power supply is essentially immune to rf interference since it rectifies to DC. By the way, my house has romex wiring and no conduit so you can't say that there is shielding all the way to the receptacle. Shielding the last 5 or 6 ft. won't make any difference.
As far as the power in your home being different...lower voltage...that's it. It's still 60 hz alternating current. Maybe you live in Europe so I could be wrong here.

3. All things being equal thicker gauge wire offers less resistance to electricity. FACT.

That is true but your earlier statement about the resistance slowing down current is NOT a fact. It reduces the voltage period....we are talking about resistive load here not reactive load.

4. Better shielding reduces EMI and RFI interference. FACT

Right again for low voltage signals not 120VAC. Shielding is used in HV (KV) cables for safety not noise reduction. Using it at household voltage levels is frivolous.

5. Better contact equals better conductivity. FACT.

Bingo but so what. I won't argue that there is value in providing the best terminations, either soldered or mechanical but any decent PC will have acceptable contact between source and load. I made my own PCs with 2/C-#12 sto cable and high quality connectors. Do they sound different. Probably not but they look cool.

Now you could dispute the conclusion that the difference will be audible. That's your right. But the above FACTS make it at least POSSIBLE for there to be differences that are audible. The flippant remark is pure laziness on your part, take it point-by-point and show my FACTS are wrong. I believe very firmly that we learn something every day, I'm ready for you to teach me. Or are you just interested in tearing other people down?

I wasn't tearing you down at all any more than you would me had I posted some philosophical bs about politics. What you posted is misleading to the uninitiated. I have worked in the business for over 38 years and know technical bs when I hear it. Your explanation regarding power distribution was simply wrong. Why should I sit by and let others be mislead by your misguided dissertation? Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if someone drops hundreds or thousands on power cords. If you are convinced that you hear a difference and can afford it, go for it. But just be aware that there have been DBTs done by reputable people that proved that sonic differences cannot be discerned with repeatability. Ok that's it from me. I normally get paid for consulting and the return on this project is not that attractive. Good luck and happy listening.

You're one angry camper.

"But just be aware that there have been DBTs done by reputable people that proved that sonic differences cannot be discerned with repeatability."

That part was funny, anyway.

Retired Stand-up Comic

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If there are specific things that are incorrect please enlighten me instead of throwing out a blanket dismissal. My basic points are:

1. Preamplifiers and power amplifiers do not increase the size of the original signal. They re-create the signal by modulating the incoming electricity. FACT

They do in fact amplify or increase the AUDIO signal not to be confused with the 120V AC current and voltage which powers them which is what we are discussing. The 120V signal is not in the signal path, not even close. That is wrong.

2. The form of electricity that we use in our homes is different from the way that the power company distributes it over long distances. The electricity in our homes is more vulnerable to interference. FACT

Not sure where you heard this one but that is wrong also unless you have concluded that low voltage (120VAC) is more susceptible to interference than MV. The point is moot anyway. An amplifier's power supply is essentially immune to rf interference since it rectifies to DC. By the way, my house has romex wiring and no conduit so you can't say that there is shielding all the way to the receptacle. Shielding the last 5 or 6 ft. won't make any difference.
As far as the power in your home being different...lower voltage...that's it. It's still 60 hz alternating current. Maybe you live in Europe so I could be wrong here.

3. All things being equal thicker gauge wire offers less resistance to electricity. FACT.

That is true but your earlier statement about the resistance slowing down current is NOT a fact. It reduces the voltage period....we are talking about resistive load here not reactive load.

4. Better shielding reduces EMI and RFI interference. FACT

Right again for low voltage signals not 120VAC. Shielding is used in HV (KV) cables for safety not noise reduction. Using it at household voltage levels is frivolous.

5. Better contact equals better conductivity. FACT.

Bingo but so what. I won't argue that there is value in providing the best terminations, either soldered or mechanical but any decent PC will have acceptable contact between source and load. I made my own PCs with 2/C-#12 sto cable and high quality connectors. Do they sound different. Probably not but they look cool.

Now you could dispute the conclusion that the difference will be audible. That's your right. But the above FACTS make it at least POSSIBLE for there to be differences that are audible. The flippant remark is pure laziness on your part, take it point-by-point and show my FACTS are wrong. I believe very firmly that we learn something every day, I'm ready for you to teach me. Or are you just interested in tearing other people down?

I wasn't tearing you down at all any more than you would me had I posted some philosophical bs about politics. What you posted is misleading to the uninitiated. I have worked in the business for over 38 years and know technical bs when I hear it. Your explanation regarding power distribution was simply wrong. Why should I sit by and let others be mislead by your misguided dissertation? Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if someone drops hundreds or thousands on power cords. If you are convinced that you hear a difference and can afford it, go for it. But just be aware that there have been DBTs done by reputable people that proved that sonic differences cannot be discerned with repeatability. Ok that's it from me. I normally get paid for consulting and the return on this project is not that attractive. Good luck and happy listening.

1. Electricity is the raw material from which an amplifier makes sound. The amplifier doesn't amplify the original signal. It uses the original signal as a template and creates (in much the same way that an artist might re-draw a picture from another artist) a newer bigger version by modulating the electricity. This is one "stage" of amplification most amps do this several more times.

2. Nearly every areas electrical code REQUIRE electrical lines to be run in conduit. Some areas alow a 6' "whip" or romex outside the conduit to reach outlets or for other obscure reasons. Indianapolis and a couple of surrounding communities do NOT require conduit at all. But they are the exception rather than the rule.

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All you did was again state that I'm wrong with out elaborating on where I'm wrong or proving it.

Sorry, mrlowry, but, if by now you haven't figured out that for those on this forum who choose not to hear anything they cannot explain - and they can't explain a lot of things - saying you are wrong is the equivalent of "stating a fact that proves you are wrong", you're hopelesly lost.

Just the "fact" they consider you wrong is sufficient for you to be wrong because they must always be right.

Buddha-

When it comes to power cords I'm a person of moderation. In my mind they do make a difference but spending as much on the power cord as was spent on the component is not an good use of resources. I've listened to power cords from Transparent from $99 to $1,750 each being better than the last to my ears. For me it isn't a question of if the $1,750 each ($8,750 total in my system because 5 would be required) was better but if a bigger improvement could be made elsewhere in a system for the same or less money. Which at that kind of money is pretty easy. Conversely, I could NOT make as big of an improvement by spending the $1,100 that I spend on power cords elsewhere in the system. To make that kind of sonic difference I would have had to change my preamp, which would have been about $3,000. So as crazy as it may sound spending $1,100 on power cords was an economically sensible thing to do, I got $3,000 worth of improvement for $1,1000.

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All you did was again state that I'm wrong with out elaborating on where I'm wrong or proving it.

Sorry, mrlowry, but, if by now you haven't figured out that for those on this forum who choose not to hear anything they cannot explain - and they can't explain a lot of things - saying you are wrong is the equivalent of "stating a fact that proves you are wrong", you're hopelesly lost.

Just the "fact" they consider you wrong is sufficient for you to be wrong because they must always be right.

Wow. So all my years of experience with electrical power distribution are for naught. Ok fellas, I will bow out so all of you can pursue your version of dungeons and dragons. This is truly laughable.

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If there are specific things that are incorrect please enlighten me instead of throwing out a blanket dismissal. My basic points are:

1. Preamplifiers and power amplifiers do not increase the size of the original signal. They re-create the signal by modulating the incoming electricity. FACT

They do in fact amplify or increase the AUDIO signal not to be confused with the 120V AC current and voltage which powers them which is what we are discussing. The 120V signal is not in the signal path, not even close. That is wrong.

2. The form of electricity that we use in our homes is different from the way that the power company distributes it over long distances. The electricity in our homes is more vulnerable to interference. FACT

Not sure where you heard this one but that is wrong also unless you have concluded that low voltage (120VAC) is more susceptible to interference than MV. The point is moot anyway. An amplifier's power supply is essentially immune to rf interference since it rectifies to DC. By the way, my house has romex wiring and no conduit so you can't say that there is shielding all the way to the receptacle. Shielding the last 5 or 6 ft. won't make any difference.
As far as the power in your home being different...lower voltage...that's it. It's still 60 hz alternating current. Maybe you live in Europe so I could be wrong here.

3. All things being equal thicker gauge wire offers less resistance to electricity. FACT.

That is true but your earlier statement about the resistance slowing down current is NOT a fact. It reduces the voltage period....we are talking about resistive load here not reactive load.

4. Better shielding reduces EMI and RFI interference. FACT

Right again for low voltage signals not 120VAC. Shielding is used in HV (KV) cables for safety not noise reduction. Using it at household voltage levels is frivolous.

5. Better contact equals better conductivity. FACT.

Bingo but so what. I won't argue that there is value in providing the best terminations, either soldered or mechanical but any decent PC will have acceptable contact between source and load. I made my own PCs with 2/C-#12 sto cable and high quality connectors. Do they sound different. Probably not but they look cool.

Now you could dispute the conclusion that the difference will be audible. That's your right. But the above FACTS make it at least POSSIBLE for there to be differences that are audible. The flippant remark is pure laziness on your part, take it point-by-point and show my FACTS are wrong. I believe very firmly that we learn something every day, I'm ready for you to teach me. Or are you just interested in tearing other people down?

I wasn't tearing you down at all any more than you would me had I posted some philosophical bs about politics. What you posted is misleading to the uninitiated. I have worked in the business for over 38 years and know technical bs when I hear it. Your explanation regarding power distribution was simply wrong. Why should I sit by and let others be mislead by your misguided dissertation? Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if someone drops hundreds or thousands on power cords. If you are convinced that you hear a difference and can afford it, go for it. But just be aware that there have been DBTs done by reputable people that proved that sonic differences cannot be discerned with repeatability. Ok that's it from me. I normally get paid for consulting and the return on this project is not that attractive. Good luck and happy listening.

1. Electricity is the raw material from which an amplifier makes sound. The amplifier doesn't amplify the original signal. It uses the original signal as a template and creates (in much the same way that an artist might re-draw a picture from another artist) a newer bigger version by modulating the electricity. This is one "stage" of amplification most amps do this several more times.

2. Nearly every areas electrical code REQUIRE electrical lines to be run in conduit. Some areas alow a 6' "whip" or romex outside the conduit to reach outlets or for other obscure reasons. Indianapolis and a couple of surrounding communities do NOT require conduit at all. But they are the exception rather than the rule.

You really are relentless....wrong, but relentless. I'm happy that you are happy with your definition of an amplifier. It's the stuff of audio salesman...fine. Code requirements to run residential circuits in conduits? You are either kidding or a complete idiot. I'm betting on the latter. You best stick with watches...electricity is not your forte.

postscript: regarding amplifiers, they are intended to increase (amplify...duh) a voltage signal, a current signal or both. A good amplifier has no sonic signature...the artist's palette analogy doesn't work.

This isn't kindergarten, name calling is just plain childish. I never resorted to in and am very disappointed that you have chosen to do so. The fact that you don't use the power cords that were included with the equipment but some DIY cords that you built makes this all the more hilarious. You mock me for believing that power cords CAN make a difference but you USE them yourself. They have a name for that where I come from but I'm not interested in name calling. Why not go back to the original power cords for a week or a month and see what happens to the performance of you system. If you are a man of science aren't you interested in doing experiments. Or are you too burdened by "knowing" the answer already?

My understanding of how an amplifier works has been gathered from discussions with a number of amplifier designers (including Charlie Hansen from Ayre among others) and my knowledge of electrical code has been obtained working with electricians on large scale Home theater projects. I resent being called an idiot. I am a curious, intelligent person which is why I asked how I was wrong and for proof. If you had been nice enough to provide some I would gladly have amended my beliefs. Which isn't something that idiots do. There is a difference between being and idiot and being misinformed. I feel that I am intelligent enough person that even when I am wrong it is because I am misinformed.

When an exchange degenerates into name calling it's out-lived it's usefulness to expand my knowledge or to be productive to others. Until you are willing to provide proof that I am incorrect I'm going to ignore you on this subject. As the thread subject says I'm going to "Shake it off."

Fair enough. Just one question: where specifically does the NEC require running conduit in a residence apart from the service entrance of course. Now if you are an intelligent person it seems that you may have noticed in my signature that I am a retired engineer and still have a PE license. I presently am a consulting engineer for GE doing electrical coordination/fault/arc flash studies at coal fired generating plants. I am offended that you reject what I say about electrical distribution when in fact I have nearly 40 years of experience. I don't expect any sort of special treatment for that but would think an intelligent person would back off and even perhaps learn something. I don't pretend to be an electronics expert although I have built a couple of amplifiers and even designed one in college (it was more of an oscillator actually) so I do have a bit of first-hand knowledge regarding that as well. When I post regarding electrical distribution of power you can pretty much put what I say in the bank so must admit that your push back came across as condescending and dismissive even though, and I'm willing to bet big money on this one, I know a little more about the subject than you do....hence that name calling, my bad. Regarding my earlier explanation of amplifier function I stand behind...they amplify current and voltage signals, period. If they have a sound of their own, they have failed in their design. Of course we know they do have their own distinctive sound...Krell vs. MAC for example....but they are not supposed to. So you think my use of DIY power cables is funny in the context of this thread? Go back and read what I said...you don't mention that I did it for aesthetics and said there is no sonic difference only visual. When I built my new house I used dimensional shingles...they are more aesthetically appealing (more expensive). Do they shed rainwater better than standard shingles...no but I elected to pay the extra for visual reasons. Same goes for my PCs. I will go back the OEM PCs and see if I hear a difference but we both know what the outcome will be. OK so I'll wave the white flag but only because I'm thinking you are a hoosier.

"When I post regarding electrical distribution of power you can pretty much put what I say in the bank so must admit that your push back came across as condescending and dismissive even though, and I'm willing to bet big money on this one, I know a little more about the subject than you do....hence that name calling..."

Got Paxil?

:-)