receivers

Ever notice on a lot of audiophile lists, like on here, you see integrated amps, preamps-amps, pre-preamps-preamps-amps and on to preamps-mono blocks but no Receivers? I do think there was a time when receivers were sub-par but my thoughts about the receiver has changed 180 in the last 5 or so years. I now look at them as the champions of stereo amps along with integrated amps or amps with volume controls.

I've been putting Stereo Receivers and V-Amps (volume controled amps or integrateds) up against the separates systems lately and the sound has tilted toward the simplier components. It's kinda scary I know, to hear me say the listening of the $99.00 units are beating up on many $25,000.00 units. And yet when we see the older computers being beat up by the hand held ones that's "advancing technology". You say "well the expensive separates have more technology in them", really where? I don't see multiple heavy transformers as a higher technology at all. Nore do I hear these huge power cables doing anything but making the sound muddy. I've done the side by side tests with quite a few audiophiles who owned the big heavy components, I would say 75% of them don't any more.

Is it really that hard to see the same technology that has made computers better, making receivers top the over built boys? I mean where do you stop before turning around and start heading the other direction like the rest of the world has? There was never any "real" rule set in audio where the heavier the component is the better it is, and I saw first hand an industry who did exactly this with no technology to back it. I also saw first hand designers who jumped on this bandwagon giving the sound second place to the looks, weight, size and dollars. They never took the time to compare the newer technology against the older heavy one. They didn't have to cause for the longest time the audiophile listener bought into the money game. The name brand game.

Your not going to stop technology. No matter how bad you want to freeze time and stay in the "huge audio" era, it's going to come to an end. Someday some reviewer is going to pick up their pen and it will be all over. And you know what? It's ok, technology marches forward and the sooner you embrace it, the sooner your hobby is going to become a lot less complicated. And I have more good news, better sounding. We over built this baby about as much as we could and AudioGon types and others will stay in business for years. Some old farts will curse me and the day I wrote this, but it's not going to stop a thing. Stereo is ready to head into the now. Stereo is ready to be thought of as a system and not components, for the serious listeners. Those who think the speaker can do what the room is suppose to and the amp must be superman strong to push and control this way over built Trump Tower with drivers beaming are all but dinosaurs. We've gone to that edge and the systems are playing less and less music. Time to deal with it and let technology do what it is suppose to, provide the future of the hobby of listening.

As you see more and more receiver based systems come to the pages of the stereophile forum don't be surprised that many of these guys had the big stuff and have moved to something more musical. Systems that are built to play music not to be placed on display for the monthly audio club.

It was a nice ride, but "got too big for it's britches" as grandpa would say.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

September 5, 2014 - 2:38pm

shp

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Is the industry really that technologically blocked?

Hi Michael

I think actually your article highlights that audio has adapted to and adopted technological innovation.

35 years ago, solid state amps maybe didn't sound as nice as tubes, but they had other advantages: increased power output, increased efficiency (thermal conversion of power consumption to output). Now Class D amps are all over the place. They're even more efficient and can produce even more output at a given weight/price point.

Heck you can source a TI DAC chip, a USB streaming chip and an ICE circuit and be on your way to building your own USB-enabled integrated amp.

These are all absolute, measurable improvements in line with evolution of computers from Univac to an iPhone.

But I think that analogy leaves off where taste and preference step in. While there's no questions that computer chips have gotten better, the 12-year-old Windows XP was outselling Windows 8 until Microsoft finally shut down support. People just liked it (or iOS) better. Similarly there will always be a group that wants NOS and a Class A, SET amp or a behemoth of a solid state amp when a Class D would deliver the same power at a fraction of the price and power consumption. (I for one haven't heard a Class D amp I like.)

The industry has always been divided: convenience vs. quality; price sensitive vs. cost no object. Inherent in that spectrum is a preference for early adoption of some technologies vs. the refinement of a more stable technology.

Then there's the guy who bought this system:

September 5, 2014 - 3:26pm

michael green

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the mechanics

Hi shp

The mechanics more than anything have screwed up the sound for high end speakers, amps and digital front ends. Over building has cause a huge sonic problem.

The picture is funny, but sadly it does tell a story.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

September 5, 2014 - 3:59pm

Catch22

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The High End was way too quick to jump on the Class D wagon

While I don't know this to be true, I would bet there are more than a few very well regarded manufacturers who regret trying to push this technology as High End before it was ready. And it may never be ready.

September 5, 2014 - 7:15pm

michael green

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way too quick

That's a mouthful and it happens much too often in this part of the industry.

I would say the exact same thing about over built audio products. They went way to fast in over building chassis, speaker cabinets, drivers and many accessories in the late 80's on. High end audio never took the time to explore this. I know this first hand by being in some of the factories of some big names that were having sonic problems related to this and choose to move forward with these problems intact.

We don't need new models every year like cars, and we totally jumped the gun when we went looks over sound. You can't design a great audio product overnight. A prototypes' parts alone need a good year to burn in to evaluate, and the heavier the part the longer the burnin.

The mass production designers took their time and made things more in balance. This is why your able to see these compete, and even pass many of their more expensive counterparts.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

September 9, 2014 - 7:11am

bierfeldt

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I am curious about something

With Class D. How does class D relate to Bob Carver and his tracking downconverter. From my perception, (and I am far, far from a technical expert) the concept and what it is supposed to accomplish technically are the same, a variable draw in current that allows for a cooler operation and a smaller transformer to deliver the same power.

However, when I listen to a Sunfire Cinema Grand, it is a very good sounding power amp. I would argue it sounds as good if not better than any amp at or below it's price point. Alternatively, I find Class Ds broadly sound week and a bit hollow.

What is the actual difference between the Tracking Downconverter amps from Sunfire and a Class D? Why do the Sunfires sound good when Class Ds do not?

Just curious. If anyone can explain it, I would appreciate it. My first system was Carver Separates and I currently own several Sunfire products and have always found Bob Carver to be an interesting guy.

September 9, 2014 - 9:03am

xsipower

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Sunfire Tracking Downconverter Description

Hello Bierfeldt,

This article from Sunfire (http://www.sunfire.com/whitepapers/Sunfire_Amplifier_Whitepaper.pdf) explains the difference between a standard class A/AB amplifier and Bob Carver's downconverter amplifier. It is not a Class D amp as you will read.

Hope this helps.

xsipower

September 9, 2014 - 11:08am

wkhanna

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a Bad Boy...that Bobby, but you better call him Sir.....

Bob was (& still is) a rabble-rouser of an audio industry that often tried to discredit (if not totally annihilate) him.
He is good at that ‘Emperor has no clothes’ thing going, which always seems to get the established status-quo, high margin types all hot & bothered under the collars of their custom-tailored Oxford button-downs.

We hook up with him every year at the annual CarverFest in North Carolina, coming up just around the corner, actually.
He is a true Prince of a Gentleman, always kind, generous & helpful.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

September 9, 2014 - 3:07pm

michael green

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The Bob Carver Story

Bob Carver is a perfect example of what this hobby "could have been" and probably "should have been". There were several designers around that time that had electronic genius, and if the hobby would have stayed on track and not gone for the expensive eye candy, but instead would have put their time into the mechanics, this would have been a totally different ball game. And I might add a ball game that listeners could have afforded.

Saying this I believe the mass world has caught up thanks to Bob and others like him. I'm not kidding when I say I see people getting better results out of the simple low mass. I know statements like this and what Bob did look ridiculous, but that's because of the marketing we all have been doing to each other in this ladder climbing thing that we all played a part in building. The high end audio industry should get focused on the methods of listening, and teach how sound works all the way through the chain. With this the hobby could help each other to learn how to choose the right audio equipment based on the individuals conditions and preferences. In a way, have a Bob Carver in your home tuning in the sound for you. I of course am pushing for tunable components and speakers and the whole system. I have it, it's doable, it sounds great and it cost pennies.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

September 10, 2014 - 6:30am

#10

bierfeldt

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Michael sorry for hijacking this thread

and turning it into a bit of a homage to Bob Carver, but this seems to have come back around and ties in nicely.

This is the third post I have read from you that has really changed my perspective on Hi-Fi as it has caused me to really think about my own perceptions, my own systems and whether what I am doing makes sense.

1, in response to one of my posts on upgrading my system you helped me identify the game of whack-a-mole I was playing to try and improve my system. That is, every time I would upgrade one part, it would expose a weakness or an issue elsewhere.

2, the absence of equalizers. Many in this forum continue to say that "we want to hear the music as the artist intended.". This assumes that a recording is reflective of what the artist intended. I can think of an article in this magazine in an interview with Rush where the guys in the band pointed out that one of there records is horrible recording and needs to be remastered. Metallica hiring a different producer because they were unhappy with there sound on all there records during the 80's. When I am listening to a bad recording, I kind of wish I had tone controls so I could make it sound better and am considering adding an equalizer and am certain that future things I buy will have bass and treble nobs.

3. Technology is good. Audyssey in particular is really good. It makes my inexpensive Denon receiver sound amazing. My $450 Denon AVR1912 sounds way better than my Carver preamp from the mid 90's because of Audyssey. I have good (not great) speakers attached and it is pleasant to listen too. In stereo, it is inferior to the Carver but in multi-channel, wow when you consider the spend. And bluntly, it sounds darn good in stereo. Better than it should when one thinks about how good it sounds compared to much more expensive equipment.

Net takeaway is, thank you for these types of posts. These are really helpful as I consider how to improve my own listening experience. In the end, I doubt I will ever be satisfied with the sound in my systems and will always be thinking about how to make it better. That being said, these three posts have radically changed my thinking on how to make it better. It just isn't about spending more which is what I historically thought.

September 10, 2014 - 8:20am

#11

michael green

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not a hijack at all

Hi Bierfeldt

Thanks for the comments. I see them as being right on topic. Our audiophile hobby has an opportunity to join it's related partners, and I hope pride doesn't prevent us from doing so. I'm sure there are going to be those who will ride the tide to the point where they will find themselves standing out in the field alone with a couple audiophile recordings while the rest have found the way to music happiness. Last week I started to receive boxes of music from a collection I aquired. I've been going through at a furious pace so that I can catelog them. My systems run 24/7 so I'm able to spend some time with each recording to get to know it a little. So far not one bad recording in the bunch. Different yes, some better than others yes, but not one that I would call unlistenable. Why? Because I have developed a method that makes my system flexible enough to bring out the best in each recording. This is just me speaking, but why would I be in this hobby if I couldn't have my system play whatever piece of music I wish? It not only makes no sense to me, but I wouldn't call a system that couldn't play the music an audiophile system. I have people contact me to come listen, have for the last 30 years. I would say 90% of them say "I wouldn't have believed it" who come from the high end audio community as well as the pro world. Who was it that said the other day on here "high end audio created it's own world separate from the music industry" (something like that). So true! Discrete inflexible systems with way too many pieces, way too complicated and way too heavy.

It's important that we can point our finger at when it happened. It happened when we went discrete without replacing the tools that we used to compensate for recording differences. I think first off any audiophile who doesn't understand how remarkably different recordings are from each other should consider finding a new hobby. The hobby of music listening was based on the uniqueness of different recordings. It's what makes it special. I walk into a show now or audiophile home and I feel like I've entered an elevator music convention. Why would I go listen to something that is so boring no one wants to go anymore (speaking of high end audio shows), or go to someones place and not be able to play my music? If someone can explain to me who went to the shows 20 or so years ago, why I would want to listen to this stuff today, I'm all ears.

The flip side is what you have mentioned and I see happening all around me. People getting into music like never before and enjoying the heck out of it. The only people I see complaining (outside of the loudness wars thing) are the high end audio folks. And frankly if I have a system that is 2 to 3 times more dynamic than the typical high end system, I'm not even all that worried about TLW. We need to embrace how far we have come and stop saying the expensive high end audio stuff is leading technology, cause it most certainly is not. 1987 sure, I buy that, but today? No way.

If a listener can't develope a method of listening that allows them to hear a wide range of music and compensates for the differences in recordings they have fallen away from what this hobby was, and what this hobby should be.

thanks again

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

September 12, 2014 - 4:57pm

#12

M3Man

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I would have scoffed at your

I would have scoffed at your receiver love a week ago, but I just put together a $500 system based on a $240 Onkyo receiver for a cash strapped friend, and I am amazed at how good it sound, even though the entire system costs less than my speaker stands. I am also surprised to see how the industry has decided that class d can never sound good. I remember when the 2nd generation Ice Amps came out and some asked "is this the perfect amplifier?" If it was, then a lot of people would look really silly hawking $100,000 Halco's now, wouldn't they? A class D Bel Canto was rated class A, now conventional wisdom says they are trash. Did the amplifier suddenly sound worse? Or did the industry decide it needed to squash the idea that Class A amps could be inexpensive, because it would hamper the sales of the super high end, which seems to be driving the industry at the moment.

Is it the sound that is pushing the industry these days, or the search for a business model that works? I just wonder if designers haven't decided that its easier to make a million dollars by selling a dozen $100,000 amps with a huge profit margin than to make a 1000 items where they earn a hundred in profit on each one.

Right now, I'm enjoying the little Onkyo with a pair of Andrew Jones designed Pioneer speakers that cost less that $200. I'd love to see this system in a double blind test with a $20,000 amp. After all, solid state amps are just a collection of silicon, copper, plastic and aluminum. The raw materials are dirt cheap. Since much of the production has been moved to China, don't be surprised when some mega company comes up with a kick ass design they sell at a very low price. Or maybe B&O already did, and the industry just closed ranks to keep itself in business.

September 12, 2014 - 6:12pm

#13

Catch22

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Perceptions of value

You'll never catch me defending the insane prices of many "High End" components. Not because I'm not a diehard capitalist, I'm certainly that, but because those prices are so out of whack with my perceptions of value that they hold zero appeal to me.

When audio designers started creating SOTA designs and priced them at "fuck you money," the chain reaction started. Every other aspiring or established high end manufacturer had to price their top shelf stuff at the same kind of levels to establish their ground and protect their status as a "player."

You see this sort of thing in many industries, not just audio. An item, though quite good and with attractive margins at a modest price will often sell more units by pricing them at the level of the competition just to establish credibility as an equal. Raise the price and sell even more! Well, to a certain point, anyway.

As for amplifiers, each topology has a certain sonic signature that defines the area the designer chose to be more in-line with their priorities. Pass likes mosfets, Curl likes bi-polar, Johnson likes valves and so on. Switching amps have a signature as well. But, they have a very attractive set of pluses that manufacturers can't resist. They are extremely cheap to make and weigh very little. Environmentalists love class D as well. They use less energy, produce very little heat and can be quite small and unobtrusive.

I've not yet heard a class D amp that I like, but I've also not heard a mosfet amp that I could live with in the long term either.

September 12, 2014 - 11:56pm

#14

michael green

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I don't care the class

For me it can be class "pie". What I care about is the sound and good listening practices. I want you guys to mark this day. The day the audiophile world started to turn. In "89" I tried to make this same turn happen with audiophile products of value but the industry would have nothing to do with it. Those of you who were around saw me travel the world and setting up systems of value, read the rags. When I then got approached to join an elite group of designers to tour with them, I turned it down so that I could continue to show sound and value, you know what I was told "michael it's not about a method, it's about selling plug & play products". This is a direct quote from a high up in this industry that I'm sure everyone of you know or have heard of. A few times I have met with this person and I will never share his name as he is a good guy, but I told him "this industry will collapse if it doesn't show two things, one product performance regardless of price, two a method of listening that will help the listener get the sound he wants".

Well we are here again, and as much as the guys bark who have bought into the big bucks, the playing field has leveled. This time the field has leveled not from a bunch of great designers who got bumped, but by a bunch of great designers who happen to work for the mass production audio companies. Sure it's going to take a while to get our sometimes head strong attitudes to take this as serious, and there will be side by side comparisons done where the big boys will come out on top cause the lower priced products will not be treated with the same amount of care, but go read my friend from Singapore, http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t169p135-hiend001-s-system . Go ahead peek around a few of these guys. These listeners can own anything they want and have, but look at what they have choosen as the top of the line.

I think high end audio needed the wall to be hit before they woke up. The shows needed to empty, and their economy needed to be a little earthquaked. There needed to come a time when the listener started to look at these beautiful audio toys and say "nah, I'll go for sound". The audiophile needs to rewind a little and go back to 79-95 when listening was an art form and we spent time making our rooms sound good and playing with the mechanics of reel to reel and tables required skill, and a soldering station was as much of a component as the amp. Not saying we all have to solder or be designers, but maybe take charge of our listening a little more. Not be so impressed by all this dollar stuff. Learn how sound works all along the audio pathway and stop pretending the sound magically jumps from the speakers to our ears. Your room is what you are hearing, your electric is all you got so don't crowd it, and make your system big enough to get the job done but not so big that it becomes a problem itself. Nothin wrong with going back to simple folks, going back to where a lot of folks had the sound they loved, before being tempted by the big biz of sound. Any time you see an industry start to guilt and shame you into buying is a time to take a look at just how much music they are really delivering. And another thing. When you see an industry or designers in that industry not willing to reference your music with you, that's when you need to question their abilities as a designer. In todays world there is no reason why an audio designer can not do more than push their product. If they can't show, I wouldn't go. As for Harold and myself, we spend all day working with people and their sound. We realize that the guy is sitting there listening with us, and he has a sound in mind, and it's our job to get him there. That's not going to happen by being a product pusher, and the listener is not going to get that sound by buying eye candy. He'll get "a" sound but almost always not "that" sound.

One more thing as a part of my again long post. Another great thing that many who don't want to spend a lot of time tweaking and tuning their system, can do with it. Use no tone controls when listening seriously and use them when you have a favorite piece of music that sounds like crap to you. Again no shame. I haven't used mine in years cause I tune things in, but you can bet if I wasn't doing what I do I'd be all over that tone control, or DSP, or rear channel. Are you kidding, it's about the music, and those CD's or whatever, aren't doing any good sitting on the shelf.

If you guys have a simple system I'd be happy to help you take it to the level of any of the big boys, if you haven't done it yourselves. And if you do have that simple set up and it's jammin, well...good for you, you have probably returned to music sanity.

have a great time listening this weekend

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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