There are differences without a doubt. Much of it has to do with 1.) Clocking (jitter), 2.)Harmonic content of individual test tones which JA shows on his testing photos,3.) quality of the DAC itself. 4.)I believe JA has even found differences in transports that even just feed an outboard DAC.

To think there would be no difference in CD/DVD players because "bits are bits" is very hard for me to believe. Some trained listeners hear differences in wire...how can a complex component be any less so. I can hear it and I would not condsider myself a "trained listner" by any standard of an audio reviewer.

I am convinced that some people listen to music in a much deeper way than others. These differences are very obvious to them.

>In my world there is a clear difference of sound among Cd-players. However there tend to bee small differences in measurments, two players can have very simular measurments but completly different sound and vicevers. What is measurements telling us?

Answer me this. How many level-matched, time-synched, bias- controled tests of music players have you ever done?

There are very few people who have jumped through all these hoops, yet if you fail to control all of these influences, I could surely reliably perceive differences among even a stack of totally identical players.

I'm not sure about your comments about measurements but agree with your take on subjective preferences.

Surely audible differences in sound must be measureable so if things sound different and the measurements look the same the reasonable conclusion is that the set of measurements being used is either incomplete or not accurate enough to measure the audible differences.

I've had 4 over $2K CDPs home for demo's and feel that two of them (Linn and Naim) would be chosen based a "house" sound and two of them (Krell and Sony) would have a more general appeal. Heck I won't agrue that any of these players aren't better than my NAD 521 in my second system or the Sony RCD50 / Theta DAC in my main system - but long term listening sessions just weren't able to convince me that parting with the thousands required to make them mine would be worth the cash. Don't get me wrong - real musical improvements are always worthwhile regardless of cost. I just couldn't convince myself that's what was going on with the more expensive decks.

There are certinly differences between CD Players, however I don't think we should worry about the specifications so much! Specifications are based on science - and science is limited by what we know in 2005. There is a lot happening inside our audio equipment that can't be explained by 2005 science! Just hear the differences and enjoy them!

The differences are more and more prominent the more transparent your system becomes. With low end speakers with poor room acoustics it's much harder to notice any difference between a 3000 dollar player and a 100 one. In my system it's obvious and easily discernible I'm sure double blind or not. I'm an objectist btw.

> No, I haven

Quote:
>Answer me this. How many level-matched, time-synched, bias- controled tests of music players have you ever done?

This is an inappropriate question for you to ask, Mr. Krueger. As a result, we have decided that a new posting rule is required -- see the "Rants and Raves" forum for details.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[quote
Answer me this. How many level-matched, time-synched, bias- controled tests of music players have you ever done?

I have tried this a number of times. In each case I COULD NOT tell the difference between players. Some of which were DVDs vs CDs.

There are certainly huge differences in CD players both physically and audibly. Whether certain individuals can hear the differences or not is more at issue for those individuals. Anyone can plainly see the physical differences in a couple of easy examples. Some budget players have only a very small board of few components, choosing to use cheap, integrated circuits. These are housed in a full-sized chassis, so you could not tell without opening the unit to see that there is only enough electronics to form a portable device. Other, more costly players have full sized components and use some discrete stages. This allows them to customize the sound. The most simple players have the most simple power supplies and preamps, where the most robust units can have many separate power supplies and discrete preamp output sections. The last analog stages are easily able to make or break the sound quality of units that use the very same D/A chip sets. So it is as much about the analog stages and regulation stages as it is about the chips selected for use. Level matched or not, dynamic range, frequency response, and noise floor are all subject to these qualities, which are audible to many listeners.
Certainly, even budget players have come a long way since the invention of CD (and "Perfect Sound Forever" by the way...) and the gap between great sounding expensive players and nearly as great sounding budget players has narrowed in terms of sonic purity. It seems though that just as soon as some new budget player comes along that sounds as nice as an old audiophile standard, that the higher-end makers create products with better implementaions of the same chipsets and better execution of analog outputs and power supplies, resulting in better still performance, continually raising the bar. The question remains, how high is your bar? No one is being forced to purchase players that are more expensive than others, yet scientists and engineers routinely purchase these higher-end players through our business. I don't hear scathing comments from them, but very satisfied praise.
-Bill

Joni Mitchell sang: "I've looked a clouds from both sides now, from up and down, but still, somehow ... it's clouds' illusions I recall, I really don't know clouds at all."

Letting my ears be tricked by audio equipment may not be clever, but, it is often pleasant.

Teaching myself to enjoy less of what I hear is not my idea of time well spent.

Listening only for the artifacts which can identify the illusion is one way to listen to recordings. Not my way, but, perhaps, just as well ...

IMHO it takes a certain amount of time to audition any audio component. What might be initially impressive may very well drag you down into a hell of

Quote:
IMHO it takes a certain amount of time to audition any audio component. What might be initially impressive may very well drag you down into a hell of

You must start with very resolving amps and speakers to discern differences in CD player quality, unless you are comparing a $48 DVD player playing redbook against a Class A "Phile" recommendation...that is easy.

Take your sub $50 DVD player into any dealer who markets "Phile" class A or B gear and it should be easy for you to, DBT or not. People who are not trying to "prove" their theory can let honesty and truth be their guide. It is not that difficult to do. Sonic differences in Class A land can be tricky and can depend upon your "home" listening environment and its freq response as much as other factors.

If you really can't hear the difference do not feel bad as you just ended up saving yourself mucho dollars over the next decades. If it doesn't sound better to you then don't buy it. This is one time in your life when it is "all about you"!

You will sure hear differences between a good quality cd player and an entry level model, if you have a good system capable of detail revelation.
I have been doing some tests with some friends who share the same enthusiasm I have in evaluating how good a system can play.
My current reference cd player is the Resolution Audio Opus 21, which I do not own, but had the opportunity of comparing it to the Quad 99CDP, and, among others, a combo of Denon transport plus a Perpetual Technology P1 feeding a Bel Canto DAC II. The Opus 21 upsamples the signal to 705KHZ/24 bits an I believe this feature is responsible for the great level of details it is able to reproducere.
I also had the opportunity of listening to some other good cd players, like the Simaudio Moon, and the Audio Aero Capitole Reference, but as they were playing on systems cpmpletely different, it is hard to make comments about performance comparisons with accuracy.
Tube otuput cdplayers also sound different. Listen to the AH! Njoeb TJoeb 4000 and you will notice, among other tube reproducing characteristics, that piano notes may stay sustained in the air a little longer than when reproduced by transistors buffered cdplayers. Harmonics.
Coax cables between transports and dacs, also make big differences in sound reproduction.
Depending on the system you own , and on the music you listen to, you might find one or another model that might be of more appealing to you.

Regards,

PVinyl