Costin
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Qualified opinions needed...
gkc
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Hi, Costin --

I am afraid there is no answer to your question. There is no such thing as a "typical" box speaker or a "typical" planar speaker. All individual speakers, no matter what general type, exhibit unique design goals. If a designer wants a wide sweet spot, he will design the speaker (again, planar or box) to highlight that particular feature. He may have to do so at the expense of other design features (flat frequency response on axis, precision imaging, etc.). Many desirable features cancel each other out, unless the designer is both expert and experienced, and such a designer may operate in either the planar or box mode. Speakers that exhibit most of the desirable features we seek in one package are few indeed. Some speakers that appear to be planar are merely cone/box speakers in a planar enclosure (the Si series by Mirage, for example). I have heard planar electrostatics that offer a magnificent "sweep" of sound -- an extremely wide and deep soundstage -- but only if you are in a relatively narrow seating window. Get up and move around, and the magic is gone (the Eros, for example). JA always includes off-axis dispersion patterns in his reviews. I just don't think you can stuff this one characteristic neatly into the planar/box dichotomy. Of all the speakers I am familiar with, the box designs have a tendency to "beam" less than the planars, but this depends, again, on individual designer goals. Sorry. Cheers, Clifton

Buddha
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Hi, Costin.

Although Clifton is right in an epistemologic sense, it's still a great question to discuss!

I beg to differ with Clifton, I think there are "typical" things that can be said about these different speaker types.

Planar speakers, in general, seem to have a smaller sweet spot than dynamic speakers.

But, when out of the sweet spot, I think planar speakers load the room in such a way that they still sound more like there is something better happening than with dynamic speakers.

However, in Hi-Fi, there are exceptions to every statement, which is where Clifton's reply comes back into play.

There are plenty of dynamic speakers with really small sweet spots - especially one driver systems like Lowthers or Mangers (did I spell that right?) - so, no universal truisms are applicable.

Cheers!

gkc
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Right, Buddha. To further complicate things, ribbon drivers (often associated with planars -- Maggies, for example) often show up in boxes and planar-type enclosures. Genesis, as I recall, has both box-style and planar enclosures for their ribbons. As you all know, the new Arial boxes have ribbon tweeters, as do some of the Dali models. So you have planars with cones, ribbons, and electrostatic drivers, and you have boxes with ribbons, cones, and even electrostatic drivers (remember the old Janszens?). Most music lovers like the illusion of the sound being more "spread out" and spacious and hear this in planar designs. I am of that bent. But that's not the same as having a wide sweet spot from the listener's perspective. The KLH Model 9's (which I owned for a couple of years in the late '60's) were superbly spacious...but only if you sat within a narrow area. I feel that my Triangles are only a slight step down from this type of "airy" presentation, and do other things so well that I prefer them to most planars for their multitude virtues (high efficiency, unforced detail, midrange punch and dynamics, and low reach in the bass). Let's not even begin to talk about different room requirements in terms of the box vs. planar preference. Cheers, Clifton

gkc
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All of which begs the question. Just what is a "planar" speaker, anyway. Even the thinnest of panels are boxes, in that they have some depth, or they wouldn't exist. So I guess you can't define them by enclosure appearance, unless you arbitrarily say "no thicker than 2 inches" or some other concocted definition for "panel-ness." Must the drivers be ribbons or electrostatic panels? Must they radiate in bi-polar or di-polar patterns? This characteristic is surely at least a little bit responsible for the sense of spaciousness they impart. My Triangle boxes have rear-radiating drivers (midrange and tweeter identical to the front-facing ones). You know, I think I am definitely bipolar on this question. What is the meaning of life, anyway, Buddha? Dammit, with your name, you ought to know! And don't tell me, "Wine, women, and song," either. That one's already been taken.

rmilewsk
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The meaning of life is ten oreo cookies and a glass of Dr. Pepper.

Costin
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Thanks Clifton & Buddha!

Yes I should have been more specific: by planar I mean boxless speakers using planar drivers with an (almost) identical front and back radiation pattern -- figure eight, I think... So boxes with planar drivers would not be included here since the backwave is absorbed not radiated.

I listened to several "box" speakers, including those from Eben (planar tweeters). Unfortunately my experience with planar speakers -- as defined above -- is limited to one short (~ 1/2 hour) audition of Quad ESL (57 or 63, don't know exactly, anyhow not the new models), one evening in front of a pair of Martin-Logans (not very relevant since they have cone woofers) and more extended listening sessions with a couple of models from Final (also hybrids with cone woofers).

Anyhow, I found the idea of planars having a tighter sweet spot than box speakers but less sound degradation outside it very interesting.

rmilewsk: did not get your joke (was it a joke?) . Intercultural gap, I presume...

gkc
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Costin, you should listen to more planar models. I think your definition is a good one, because it captures the uniqueness of this design approach. Once you are in the sweet spot, planars tend to "disappear" sonically -- many boxes do that, too, but not quite in the same way. There's no doubt that planars load the room in a unique way, and many listeners are seduced by the spacious effect. The new Quads sound similar to the ones you heard, but I think are better -- a bit more dramatic with more bass. They are not for head-bangers, though, even though lovers of Classical and Jazz music usually feel they play loudly enough for those genres. Some of the Maggies (the less expensive models) are hybrid, in that ribbons don't cover the entire frequency spectrum. I have heard both the top of the Maggie line and the $4,000 ones (I can't remember the model numbers) and have mixed feelings. I enjoyed them both, but they are amplifier-fussy and I suspect, on at least one occasion, the electronics match wasn't good. They are certainly worthy of your consideration. Boxes tend to be less fussy to set up and more often have deeper bass, and some boxes seem to have a wider sweet spot without the sense of spaciousness you get from the best planars. It is difficult to generalize -- you just have to listen around until you form your own opinions.

Rmilewsk's recipe for bliss? The man has a sick mind. Everybody knows the oreos go best with a 50/50 mix of beer and V-8 juice, especially for breakfast. Dr. Pepper is best with triple-fudge brownies, baked with a weed crust. Cheers, Clifton

JoeE SP9
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Everyone knows the meaning of life is 42!

JoeE SP9
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The one thing I have noticed about planars is that although they sound good everywhere the sweet spot is SWEEEET!!!!! Many of my guests comment on how good my ESL's sound when they are not in the sweet spot. When they do, I offer them the sweet spot. It's a whole different world there, as they always say. Sometimes they don't want to get out of my chair. Just kidding?

DanS
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Do not dismiss the hybrid speaker models. If you want to get bass sound below 100Hz, you would need to combine your planar drivers (electrostatic or ribbon) with a woofer. This is still a problem with the Quads and with the Sound Lab models; that was the reason for Martin Logan not to continue with their pure ESL model; I would suspect that the same applies to the Apogee and Magnepan speakers.

It is important what aspects of the musical experience you like most: dynamics, punch and a larger sweet-spot - go for cones & boxes; transparency | sonic imaging | spaciousness | accuracy - go for electrostatic or ribbon speakers (and don't worry, these characteristics are being preserved with the hybrid models or if you use a subwoofer).

I suppose that starting next year, as Roumania joins the EU, you should be able to audition many more models; I would recommend the following:
Electrostatic: Martin Logan (Summit model); Quad (models 2905 and 989); Sound Lab (Millennium & Ultimate models); Inner Sound (Kaya Reference model).
Magnetic: Magnepan (MG 3.6 & MG 20.1); Apogee Acoustics (Stage, Duetta & Full Range); Ambience (Ultra & Reference models); Bohlender-Graebener (Radia 520i).

JoeE SP9
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As for getting good bass from ESL's I agree with using subs. I have two 12" sealed box subs working to 85Hz. Although my ESL's (Acoustat Spectra 2200) have bass without a sub in order to get BASS the subs are a requirement. The larger Apogee's don't really need low end augmentation. Magnepan MG3.3R's don't really need them and the 20.1's definately don't need a sub. One of my buddies who has MG3.3R's uses a transmission line sub anyway. I have heard the larger Sound Labs and the 20.1's they didn't need subs.

mrlowry
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The statement that planar speakers (both ribbons and electrostats) will have more narrow dispersion than a dynamic driver is correct. This isn

JoeE SP9
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In my room with my ESL's treating the front wall with a combination of diffusion, reflection and absorbtion in the proper proportions does nothing for the sweet spot per se. What it does, is seem to move the front wall ten to twenty feet back depending on the recording. I totally agree with treating the points of first reflection. With treatment I regularly get lateral imaging beyond the side walls. I haven't owned a pair of boxes in so long I can't comment on how any room treatment would effect them.

commsysman
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Anyone who thinks the meaning of life is ten Oreo cookies and a glass of Dr. Pepper will never acheive audio nirvana or have good sex; it has been well established that the meaning of life is a great sound system, great sex, Columbus Italian dry salami, and a very good bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon.

rmilewsk
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You would be surprised what someone with oreo cookies, dr. pepper and imagination can accomplish.

macmark
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Home made chocolate chip cookies and a glass of cold milk, combined with listening to Martha Argerich playing a Liszt piece - now that's nirvana.

cyclebrain
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Quote:
You would be surprised what someone with oreo cookies, dr. pepper and imagination can accomplish.


You do mean sexually correct?

cyclebrain
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I think this thread has been hijacked.
What do you use as a diffuser behind planer speakers?
I was wondering if quadratic diffusors and their cousins work well at close distances to a speaker.

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