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one important fact that you seem to leave out.

i am not a manufacturer nor am I under employ of any audio manufacturer..

Please list where you disagreed with Ethan's position on these points.
Please provide links.

Breaking forum rules against a manufacturer or competitor is ok

Accusations of Ted intentionally defrauding the public

Accusations of Ted using photoshop to doctor his graphs

Accusations of Ted outright lying to the public

Accusations of Ted "rigging" the data

I have not seen any evidence that Ted did any of these things you and others accuse him of. I say let 3rd party evidence be presented. By the way, you would not last 5 minutes on the witness stand.

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So..as a manufacturer, should you be engaging in slandering? At the very least, you are acting unprofessionally.

That is another one to add to the list, slander against Ted. And remember, I have a signed "confession" of guilt, so no slander or unprofessional conduct. So you want to bring that to court and see how long your accusation lasts before it is thrown out.

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they? After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

As I suggested a couple/few pages ago, why not let this string die instead of continuing to keep it alive.

who is attacking ted?

Oh boy. Do you want a complete list? Because there are too many for me to remember. Off the top of my head... You, Ethan, Ethan's sockpuppet trolls (David L., Joamonte), AlexO, andy1919, rgibran, and a bunch of others. But since you want to play "Let's deny the glaring truth", then I guess it was all an illusion. How many points do I get for that?

the graphs were id'd to be wrong by ethan. ted said they were wrong. period.

There you go again, repeating that same falsehood, that same defeated argument, and adding an emphatic "period" as if that were true. Prove that Ethan ID'd the -500ms difference in the energy timeline of the after graph. That's what Ted said was wrong. You will avoid this question as you and Ethan always have, proving that you are trying to mislead readers on behalf of Ethan Winer.

so I guess to show ethan how bad he has been , you are trying to one-up him by doing the broken-record spiel?

This is exactly what you are doing here and now. Repeating the same defeated arguments, refusing to acknowledge they have been disproved.

Give it up. Your accusations are not going to have any impact on Ethan's business..nor his reputation.

Give it up yourself. I already told you it's about Ethan's lies, not his business. I thought you said you regretted getting involved, and here you are, not 5 minutes later, repeating the same refuted trash again? Must not have had much in the way of regret.

So..as a manufacturer, should you be engaging in slandering? At the very least, you are acting unprofessionally.

So as a manufacturer, should Ethan?

Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

What are you even implying by that? I don't know. Ted has shown himself to be nothing but a decent, honest, and professional member of the audio community. Unlike your lowlife friend you hang out with, TD has NOT engaged in slandering Ethan's products. He does not go around to other forums creating sockpuppets so he can trash Ethan or other competitors, as Ethan has shown to do. He does not attack forum members for recommending a competitor's product, as Ethan has proven to do. I have not seen him accuse another manufacturer of "fraud", and certainly not without some -very- rock hard evidence that would stand up in a court of law.

Do you believe that Ethan has provided evidence of that Acoustic Art is guilty of fraud in their practices, and falsification of their data? Let me take a wild guess: you're not going to answer that one either.

Id suggest that the best thing you and frog both can do is to just shut up.

Why, so you and Ethan can continue to lie, troll, cheat, misrepresent yourselves, deliberately distort and misrepresent the facts, and mislead readers in order that Ethan sell more room treatment products and that would make both of you happy? Sorry. You can always dream though, NC; it's free. And hey, at least you can go back to your boss and tell him that you made one last, final effort, your stongest yet, to supress two of the biggest opponents of his organized campaign to damage the reputation of his competitor. And that somehow, your "shut up tactic" didn't work. I'm sorry if you really had your heart set on that one. Maybe he will take pity on you anyway and give you a discount on your next purchase of a PVB for your studio. If not well.... have you got access to a staple gun, scrap wood and fibrefill? Seriously, my 12 year old cousin on a sugar high can make the same things that Ethan sells. So how about you take your own advice for a change. Let me inform you now that your little "suggestions", will never be considered by me. So don't waste your time making them.

The thread is already trashed.

"Already"? Make me laugh! It was trash to begin with; as it is an attack thread. It started with Ethan Winer declaring "fraud", "Photoshopping", "rigging", "falsification of data" etc. on another of our industry members; and as is always the case, serious charges for which he provided no proof of, just vague allegations and conjecture. Nothing has changed since, his proof as absent as your vapid, empty posturing.

im bowing out and you two are going on ignore.

You mean like you have been putting all evidence against your claims on "ignore" as well, or do you mean like you already said you were "bowing out" and came back anyway? Peachy. Except I've heard this before by, guess who? Ethan again. And yes, the man even lied about that! So I don't know if you're following in his footsteps, or him in yours. But I'm going to save this and if I ever see you attacking me or steve again, whether directly or indirectly to another, I'll whip it out and you will once again, have to come face to face with your hypocrisy; your empty, meaningless words. Remember: a man stands or dies by his own words. If yours are worthless, because you will not support them and are constantly contradicting them, then that's what they will say about you.

I wonder if Frog will comment on the "racism" thread?

Then why are you asking him what I might or might not comment on? What, you're afraid now to ask me directly, because I might say something else about you that's painfully true, that you again wish to avoid discussing? Well I don't know what "racism" thread you're even talking about. This is the first thread I have scanned today, I haven't taken the time to look at others yet. Did some troll call you a racist for no reason, and it hurt your feelings? That's to be expected when you go up against Boss Ethan! Wouldn't be surprised if he gets his little sockmuppet mafia to wait for me outside my door, and beat me with loofah sponges when I step out.

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one important fact that you seem to leave out.

i am not a manufacturer nor am I under employ of any audio manufacturer..

Neither am I, but it didn't stop Ethan accusing me of such, since my first day here, and many times more recently again. Don't recall you coming to my defense when he did. Boy was I surprised, that you didn't say anything against Ethan.

BTW, you just finished saying you were "out of here", and that you were putting Steve on ignore. I knew that was BS and said so. I was again, right about you. For it took you exactly 32 minutes to break your word. You made the argument to me recently that if people use handles, it means they don't stand by their convictions. You were obviously correct there, since you post under an anonymous handle and don't seem to much care that you destroy the meaning in all of your words by constantly contradicting what you say. So I have to wonder, what else are you going to say that you will contradict 2 or 32 minutes later?

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So you want to bring that to court and see how long your accusation lasts before it is thrown out.

Sammet, don't flatter yourself. You are assuming that I give enough of a damn to "go to court".

the only things I see here that are court-worthy are the perhaps fraud allegations(if there was no fraud!)(which I believe Ethan will retract) and the character attacks made by frog (how brave, to attack from behind a screen name!!)

=teddy ray

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

Compared to what? One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit. The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

So you want to bring that to court and see how long your accusation lasts before it is thrown out.;)

Sammet, don't flatter yourself. You are assuming that I give enough of a damn to "go to court".

Something tells me your reading comp skills need polishing.

the only things I see here that are court-worthy are the perhaps fraud allegations(if there was no fraud!)(which I believe Ethan will retract)

No, sorry it doesn't work that way "Mr. Drawl", or whatever your real name is. You don't go and make fraudulent accusations against a competitor, just to see whatever the hell might "stick", and then just post a casual retraction if you can't make your false, unproven accusations finally stick in the end. That is purely unehtical, purely the actions of a fraud and internet troll. This is the kind of pathetic lowlife you are defending, and you don't understand how that might reflect poorly on you?

And how exactly do you think anything I have written about your fraudulent acoustics dealer is "court worthy"? No, please. Explain. Me and my friends reading you would love for you to entertain us some more with your uproarious philosophies.

and the character attacks made by frog (how brave, to attack from behind a screen name!!)

"Character attacks made by frog"? What is this, you feel compelled to throw in a bonus attack on me from behind your ditch, with every whinging fit you make to Steve? I really don't know why you're continually whining about me to SAS all the time. Seems you don't even have the stones to attack me directly now, after deliberately stalking me earlier. Anyway, I disagree. It isn't "brave" of you at all to make character attacks behind a screen name. Seems more like something an anonymous asshole would do. So why do you do it? Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you post under a silly childish handle like "ncdrawl"? It literally sounds like something a 4 yr old wrote, after opening a box of crayons.

I guess this must be the reason why you just finished saying you were ignoring Sammet and myself, and bowing out of this thread. And yet we see you doing anything but! So you lied about that as well. I suppose posting under a lie of a name, you feel this gives you the right to post any sort of blatant, open, obvious and self-evident lie. No kidding you're one of the last guys standing, continuing to defend Ethan's abusive and deceitful behaviour here, in the same dishonest manner.

=Michigan J. Frog

"If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely."

Earth to Scott: Being as it's difficult enough for folks to take actual experience at face value, without much angst and yelping, I'm not sure we really need all this exuberance without direct experience. In any case, it's certainly not true that "conventional, easy to grasp" acoustic products can all be put in the same basket, as it were, as their effectiveness varies all over the plaza, as they say in France. Without direct experience of a product in one's own system, one's testomony should be taken with a grain of salt.

Q: off topic - did you pick them up yet?

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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Compared to what?

What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period. They work as advertised as compared to nothing.

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One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit.

Your point? You questioned whether or not ethan's products are proven to work. what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

That wasn't the question you asked. It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period. If you think Ethan is misrepesenting the actual effectiveness of his products you are always free to do indepenedent measurments and post them.

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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Compared to what?

What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period. They work as advertised as compared to nothing.

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One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit.

Your point? You questioned whether or not ethan's products are proven to work. what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

That wasn't the question you asked. It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period. If you think Ethan is misrepesenting the actual effectiveness of his products you are always free to do indepenedent measurments and post them.

I assumed you knew the basics that almost anything soft, such as a large pillow, is known to work, thus proven. Pretty basic stuff Scott. The question is how effective are they compared to the competition, and the effectiveness vs price ratio.

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"If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely."

Earth to Scott: Being as it's difficult enough for folks to take actual experience at face value, without much angst and yelping, I'm not sure we really need all this exuberance without direct experience. In any case, it's certainly not true that "conventional, easy to grasp" acoustic products can all be put in the same basket, as it were, as their effectiveness varies all over the plaza, as they say in France. Without direct experience of a product in one's own system, one's testomony should be taken with a grain of salt.

Nonsense. the principles behind bass traps and absorbtion panels are thouroughly proven and are cornerstone principles of acoustics. it does not depend on anybody's personal experience. Questioning these principles and whether or not they have been proven really is like saying "I've never been to China so I question it's existance."

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Q: off topic - did you pick them up yet?

"them" being what?

"Nonsense. the principles behind bass traps and absorbtion panels are thouroughly proven and are cornerstone principles of acoustics."

Which one do you use in your room?

""them" being what?"

What do you mean, ""them" being what?"?

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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Compared to what?

What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period. They work as advertised as compared to nothing.

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One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit.

Your point? You questioned whether or not ethan's products are proven to work. what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

That wasn't the question you asked. It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period. If you think Ethan is misrepesenting the actual effectiveness of his products you are always free to do indepenedent measurments and post them.

I assumed you knew the basics that almost anything soft, such as a large pillow, is known to work. Anyone can make treatments that will work. Pretty basic stuff Scott. The question is how effective are they compared to the competition.

I hate to be so brutally blunt but either you really are a complete retard or just so dishonest that you can't help yourself or...... both. It's pretty fucking simple. The assertion was "Ethans products are proven to work" You respond by saying "are they?" YES THEY ARE! Now you are talking in circles to try to change the reality of what was said. It doesn't work.

So to sum it all up.

"Ethan's products are proven to work"

Steve "are they?"

AS "yes they are and you are a fucking idiot to even ask that question"

Steve "I assumed you knew pillows work on room acoustics! gotcha!"

What is wrong with you?

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"Nonsense. the principles behind bass traps and absorbtion panels are thouroughly proven and are cornerstone principles of acoustics."

Which one do you use in your room?

I use acoustic foam along with heavy drapes, rugs on the floor and wall for absobrtion and bass trapping.

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""them" being what?"

What do you mean, ""them" being what?"?

You asked if I picked "them" up. I don't know what you are refering to. Gotta establish that noun first.

Acoustic foam, including the pros's favorite, Sonex, could possibly be the worse thing I've ever encountered. Sorry about that.

I was referring to the enigmatic little bowls. I wuz under the impression you were going to pick them up from Mr. T.

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Acoustic foam, including the pros's favorite, Sonex, could possibly be the worse thing I've ever encountered. Sorry about that.

No I'm not using Sonex but a less expensive foam that is basically the same. It is terrible if you love that slap echo and can't live without it. If you are looking for actual absorbtion though it is quite effective.

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I was referring to the enigmatic little bowls. I wuz under the impression you were going to pick them up from Mr. T.

I went over to Ted's for a demo. I did not borrow them.

Sonex and similar foams, even a small (there's that word small again) amount, rob the music of life and do something to the phase of the signal. Suggest removing all foam and living with slap echo. Ditto chairs with foam cushions.

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I went over to Ted's for a demo. I did not borrow them.

what is the verdict, Scott? Did you hear any difference?

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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Compared to what?

What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period. They work as advertised as compared to nothing.

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One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit.

Your point? You questioned whether or not ethan's products are proven to work. what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

That wasn't the question you asked. It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period. If you think Ethan is misrepesenting the actual effectiveness of his products you are always free to do indepenedent measurments and post them.

I assumed you knew the basics that almost anything soft, such as a large pillow, is known to work. Anyone can make treatments that will work. Pretty basic stuff Scott. The question is how effective are they compared to the competition.

I hate to be so brutally blunt but either you really are a complete retard or just so dishonest that you can't help yourself or...... both. It's pretty fucking simple. The assertion was "Ethans products are proven to work" You respond by saying "are they?" YES THEY ARE! Now you are talking in circles to try to change the reality of what was said. It doesn't work.

So to sum it all up.

"Ethan's products are proven to work"

Steve "are they?"

AS "yes they are and you are a fucking idiot to even ask that question"

Steve "I assumed you knew pillows work on room acoustics! gotcha!"

What is wrong with you?

Anyone can state their product is proven to work. But compared to what. One can design any number of ways and come up with more or less effectiveness. The question still remains, for any manufacturer, are theirs really proven to be better than the competition.

Have a good weekend Scott.

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Sonex and similar foams, even a small (there's that word small again) amount, rob the music of life and do something to the phase of the signal.

What they do is reduce room reflections. If you find them robing the music of life I suggest not putting them directly between the speakers and the listening position.

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Suggest removing all foam and living with slap echo. Ditto chairs with foam cushions.

Your suggestion is noted.

wait wait wait wait, if I put acoustic foam somewhere in the room it affects the "phase of the signal?" Seriuosly?

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I went over to Ted's for a demo. I did not borrow them.

what is the verdict, Scott? Did you hear any difference?

Ted is on vaction sailing his boat. I think it would be unfair for me to comment without him being here. Please don't infer any answer from that. I don't think my observations will sway anyone one way or another anyway nor should they.

ROFLMAO

Stop the insanity!

It's a simple fuckin yes or no question?

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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Compared to what?

What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period. They work as advertised as compared to nothing.

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One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit.

Your point? You questioned whether or not ethan's products are proven to work. what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

That wasn't the question you asked. It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period. If you think Ethan is misrepesenting the actual effectiveness of his products you are always free to do indepenedent measurments and post them.

I assumed you knew the basics that almost anything soft, such as a large pillow, is known to work. Anyone can make treatments that will work. Pretty basic stuff Scott. The question is how effective are they compared to the competition.

I hate to be so brutally blunt but either you really are a complete retard or just so dishonest that you can't help yourself or...... both. It's pretty fucking simple. The assertion was "Ethans products are proven to work" You respond by saying "are they?" YES THEY ARE! Now you are talking in circles to try to change the reality of what was said. It doesn't work.

So to sum it all up.

"Ethan's products are proven to work"

Steve "are they?"

AS "yes they are and you are a fucking idiot to even ask that question"

Steve "I assumed you knew pillows work on room acoustics! gotcha!"

What is wrong with you?

Anyone can state their product is proven to work. But compared to what. One can design any number of ways and come up with more or less effectiveness. The question still remains, for any manufacturer, are theirs really proven to be better than the competition.

Have a good weekend Scott.

My god dude, what don't you understand about the fact that the effectiveness of any room treatment is first and formost measured against nothing? You have a room, you try a room treatment in that room. A. No treatment, B treatment, A no treatment, B treatment. Does it do something or does it not do something. If it does something is it an improvement or not. It's really really simple. Ethan's products like any other product that actually acts as a bass trap or absorber is proven to do what they are advertise to do.

Disney Hall, Verdi's requium, Gustavo. should be a great weekend.

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I went over to Ted's for a demo. I did not borrow them.

what is the verdict, Scott? Did you hear any difference?

Ted is on vaction sailing his boat. I think it would be unfair for me to comment without him being here. Please don't infer any answer from that. I don't think my observations will sway anyone one way or another anyway nor should they.

Thanks Scott and looking forward to your observations when you feel the time is correct.

Cheers.

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ROFLMAO

Stop the insanity!

It's a simple fuckin yes or no question?

Yes the question is simple. I wish the answer were as simple.

Lots of folks have acoustic foam in their rooms and have never bothered to remove it, assuming it MUST be a good thing. Everyone says it is.

Cheers

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Ethan's products are proven. Ted's arent. Who has more to lose and more to gain?

Are they?

Yes they are. If you seriously believe that Ethan's products, which are essentially the same as many other manufacturers of acoustic treatments, are unproven then you clearly have no clue whatsoever about room acoustics. The principles behind Ethan's products are about as well proven to work as advertised as just about anything in audio. That you would even consider questioning this basic fact of room acoustics destroys your credibility completely.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comment.

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After all, he admitted to doctoring the 10 mics graphs and accusations, I believe presented by Michigan, that on another string he manipulated the measurements of competitor's products by changing the placement.

yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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Compared to what?

What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period. They work as advertised as compared to nothing.

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One could use any soft thick material, like a large pillow, and obtain some benefit.

Your point? You questioned whether or not ethan's products are proven to work. what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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The question is are they equal or better than the competition if he had to doctor the comparison as charged.

That wasn't the question you asked. It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period. If you think Ethan is misrepesenting the actual effectiveness of his products you are always free to do indepenedent measurments and post them.

I assumed you knew the basics that almost anything soft, such as a large pillow, is known to work. Anyone can make treatments that will work. Pretty basic stuff Scott. The question is how effective are they compared to the competition.

I hate to be so brutally blunt but either you really are a complete retard or just so dishonest that you can't help yourself or...... both. It's pretty fucking simple. The assertion was "Ethans products are proven to work" You respond by saying "are they?" YES THEY ARE! Now you are talking in circles to try to change the reality of what was said. It doesn't work.

So to sum it all up.

"Ethan's products are proven to work"

Steve "are they?"

AS "yes they are and you are a fucking idiot to even ask that question"

Steve "I assumed you knew pillows work on room acoustics! gotcha!"

What is wrong with you?

Anyone can state their product is proven to work. But compared to what. One can design any number of ways and come up with more or less effectiveness. The question still remains, for any manufacturer, are theirs really proven to be better than the competition.

Have a good weekend Scott.

My god dude, what don't you understand about the fact that the effectiveness of any room treatment is first and formost measured against nothing? You have a room, you try a room treatment in that room. A. No treatment, B treatment, A no treatment, B treatment. Does it do something or does it not do something. If it does something is it an improvement or not. It's really really simple. Ethan's products like any other product that actually acts as a bass trap or absorber is proven to do what they are advertise to do.

Disney Hall, Verdi's requium, Gustavo. should be a great weekend.

Sounds fun Scott. Hope your weekend goes well.

And I ask when does a treatment not be proven to work, against nothing..... The question still remains has it been proven to work better than the competition.

"wait wait wait wait, if I put acoustic foam somewhere in the room it affects the "phase of the signal?" Seriuosly?"

That's what it sounds like to me. YRMV

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Lots of folks have acoustic foam in their rooms and have never bothered to remove it, assuming it MUST be a good thing. Everyone says it is.

Cheers

I have never found a room that came with acoustic foam already in it. i actually added mine. So I did hear it before and after. Everytime I added more it just got better and better. When I move to my next house I am going to do things with an actual plan. That plan being to kill the room's sound as much as is practical. Then I can start removing treatment to see if the sound ever improves with added room reflections. I'm guessing I'll like the sound best without any room colorations. we shall eventually see.

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My god dude, what don't you understand about the fact that the effectiveness of any room treatment is first and formost measured against nothing? You have a room, you try a room treatment in that room. A. No treatment, B treatment, A no treatment, B treatment. Does it do something or does it not do something. If it does something is it an improvement or not. It's really really simple. Ethan's products like any other product that actually acts as a bass trap or absorber is proven to do what they are advertise to do.

Disney Hall, Verdi's requium, Gustavo. should be a great weekend.

Sounds fun Scott. Hope your weekend goes well.

And I ask when does a treatment not be proven to work, against nothing..... The question still remains has it been proven to work better than the competition.

Steve I have no idea how Real traps compare in performance or price to the other bas traps. But I know they work. It sure looked to me that you were questioning that. We all get it that you and Ethan are mortal enemies. But don't let that lead to really dumb things like questioning the proven effectiveness of bass traps or absorbtion panels. Those things are proven to work. Room colorations are a serious hurdle fo any high end playback system. Bass traps and absorbtion will go a long way toward fixing any room with problems.

I don't like rugs on floors or carpets on walls, either, as a rule, but what do I know? Like the foam and acoustic ceiling tiles - seems like a really great idea. Whoopie! I think they refer to this sort of thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, something like that. Who knows, maybe you're the exception that proves the rule...

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My god dude, what don't you understand about the fact that the effectiveness of any room treatment is first and formost measured against nothing? You have a room, you try a room treatment in that room. A. No treatment, B treatment, A no treatment, B treatment. Does it do something or does it not do something. If it does something is it an improvement or not. It's really really simple. Ethan's products like any other product that actually acts as a bass trap or absorber is proven to do what they are advertise to do.

Disney Hall, Verdi's requium, Gustavo. should be a great weekend.

Sounds fun Scott. Hope your weekend goes well.

And I ask when does a treatment not be proven to work, against nothing..... The question still remains has it been proven to work better than the competition.

Steve I have no idea how Real traps compare in performance or price to the other bas traps. But I know they work. It sure looked to me that you were questioning that. We all get it that you and Ethan are mortal enemies. But don't let that lead to really dumb things like questioning the proven effectiveness of bass traps or absorbtion panels. Those things are proven to work. Room colorations are a serious hurdle fo any high end playback system. Bass traps and absorbtion will go a long way toward fixing any room with problems.

I would be glad to buy ethan a cup of coffee or dinner if we ever met. He just has to tweek himself to considering others and how he impacts them.

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Ted is on vaction sailing his boat. I think it would be unfair for me to comment without him being here.

no inferring here..but you can't say whether or not you heard any difference? i mean.. why does Ted have to be here? it'd be nice to hear some real world experience rather than continue to hear all this sermonizing bullshit from both sides.

Sammet, for the love of Allah, could you PLEASE LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION?? it is tiring wading through the whole thread in one post...

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yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period.

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what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period.

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I hate to be so brutally blunt but either you really are a complete retard or just so dishonest that you can't help yourself or...... both. It's pretty fucking simple.

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"yes they are and you are a fucking idiot to even ask that question"

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My god dude What is wrong with you?

Thank you. I was just beginning to ask myself the same question of you. Why so much anger and resentment, Scott? Do you see Steve responding to you in the manner of a profane hair-tearing tirade? I thought you said you were against ad hominem attacks in a debate? Anyone who has to resort to as much angry ad hominem as you do, has lost the debate.

Seems that if you had any valid points to make in a debate, you wouldn't have to make them in a crying, angry, whining fit all the time.

I find myself nodding in agreement with a number of things Kait tried explaining to you about acoustic treatments. By your remarks on the subject, you act like acoustic room treatment panels are just magic pills that you take whenever you have bad sound. That they are "proven" to work, so can not be doing anything bad to your sound. They are only "proven" to have an effect on acoustic waves. So does an empty fridge box. As Steve has (again) been patiently trying to explain to you, "work" means a lot of things to a lot of people. My observations with the kind of products your friend Ethan sells, in my room and that of many of my friends, is that they "Yammy-fy" your sound. What that term refers to is to sort of reduce a highly engineered Stereophile Class A/B/C/etc amplifier, into something that more resembles the sound of a mid-fi Yamaha receiver. Which gets you further away from the musical goal, not closer to it.

You can do the same sort of thing to the signal chain by, say, sticking an equalizer in the path of the signal, and thinking that you are improving the sound by twidding with the knobs, because you're "compensating" for your room anomalies. Completely oblivious to what the hell else that equalizer has just done to your sound. That's a good analogy actually, because sticking acoustic treatment traps on all the walls, is much like fiddling with an equalizer for the room itself.

All rooms, like all systems, have inherent colorations. By adding large room acoustic panels, you add further colorations. What happens after that depends on your belief system; measurer or listener? Just as with audio equipment, you can look at data measurements and "believe" your sound is better. Then tell your ears to shut up, if they ever suggest otherwise. Or, if you actually know how the many ways music reproduction can degrade, you might then recognize that "degrade" is what the room treatments are doing to important characteristics of your sound. But the "measurer" only hears what he chooses to hear; which is the "improvements" the treatments have made. This I believe is more or less what Kait meant by "YRMV" (Your Room May Vary). What he also said about people getting used to a certain sound, even though it is an artificial sound, can never be overstated.

There is a reason why more refined audiophiles, seeking a purer, less colored sound, avoid acoustic room treatments, even tacking carpets to the walls. If you prefer say amplitude over phase, dryness of bass over resolution of timbre, one aspect of one measurement being more or less correct, while other aspects that may not sign in as "present!" on the manufacturer's data sheet, but can cause the relationship you have to the musical message to become worse, then room treatment products are probably for you.

But not me, sorry "dude". I won't allow anything to come into either my room, or my system, that fucks with the core elements of the sound that provides to the brain, the connection it needs to react to that sound as it does real music. And it is all too easy to screw up your sound worse, in an effort to make it better, and believe it's better to justify all your expense and bother in installing room traps. If that happens, then what you get in the end is just "sound". Noises that resemble music, but do not fool the brain very much. So it does not respond in the same way as it would in the presence of music. This is the essential reason for why the "measurers" will never see eye to eye with the "listeners". That's not to knock your system if you like the way it sounds. Just don't be telling me or anyone else here, that's that way it's gotta sound, and acoustic traps are what everybody needs, if not wants. That's just your trip.

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I find myself nodding in agreement with a number of things Kait tried explaining to you about acoustic treatments.

Kait wasn't talking about all acoustic treatment...just a particular brand of foam.

the argument that acoustic treatments "KILL" the sound is about as stupid a fucking argument as ive ever seen..and flies in the face of all the research that people with much more sense/cred/intelligence than any of us have done over the past 50-60-70 years.

how clueless can you get? acoustic treatments dont help but tying a fucking reef knot or pinning a corner of your curtains up or putting a piece of blue paper under a cd player does??

Christ Almighty. gotta get my hip waders.

so how could an amplifier, more than likely designed in a room with ideal acoustic conditions, be improved by throwing it in a room with less than ideal conditions? do you assume all amps are built in rooms that suck acoustically?

and your "EQ" spiel demonstrates very, very clearly the depths of your misunderstanding(s)! about audio reproduction.

Damn. one of the first times in years that ive shot liquid out of my nose while laughing at a forum post.

for that, I thank you!

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yeah I left out your idiotic bullshit claims because they are pathetic and, more importantly, irrelavent. the products are either proven to work as advertised or not regardless of your perosnal bullshit about Ethan.

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What a fucking stupid ass question. you questioned whether or not they work period.

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what the fuck does the fact that other things also affect room acoustics have to do with your idiotic questioning of whether or not Ethan's products have been proven to work?

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It was asserted that Ethan's products are proven to work and you said "have they?" That is a fucking idiotic thing to say. Period.

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I hate to be so brutally blunt but either you really are a complete retard or just so dishonest that you can't help yourself or...... both. It's pretty fucking simple.

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"yes they are and you are a fucking idiot to even ask that question"

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My god dude What is wrong with you?

Thank you. I was just beginning to ask myself the same question of you. Why so much anger and resentment, Scott?

No anger and resentment. I was just trying to drive home my points. Was it over the top? Perhaps. It was doen for dramatic effect.I guess I was in a Mamet/Tarantino mood.

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Do you see Steve responding to you in the manner of a profane hair-tearing tirade?

Nope.

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I thought you said you were against ad hominem attacks in a debate?

Is that what I said? If it is, allow me to correct myself. I find ad hominem *arguments* to be logically flawed.

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Anyone who has to resort to as much angry ad hominem as you do, has lost the debate.

I didn't have to resort to them. The argument was made pretty clearly. The rest was just style.

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I find myself nodding in agreement with a number of things Kait tried explaining to you about acoustic treatments.

Kait wasn't talking about all acoustic treatment...just a particular brand of foam.

Like I said before, your reading comp skills suck. He mentioned -all- foam, including foam in chairs, not just Sonex acoustical foam. He also talked about acoustic ceiling tiles, and what he feels are detrimental effects from rugs on the floor and walls. Do you at all realize that's more than just "a particular brand of foam"?

It sound like you're so ripped and ready for an argument, you just burst through the door to yell "F-you, all of you!! You're all f'in idiots and don't know what you're talking about!!". Only to realize in the next moment, that you've got the wrong room. So if I might make a suggestion, why don't you give some time to let your brain, or whatever part of it you can get to work, process what you're going to say, before you bash your fists on the keyboard in a seething rage, okay? Just give it a shot, who knows.

the argument that acoustic treatments "KILL" the sound is about as stupid a fucking argument as ive ever seen..and flies in the face of all the research that people with much more sense/cred/intelligence than any of us have done over the past 50-60-70 years.

Uh-huh. Because as we know, every possible aspect about audio was known 50-60-70 years ago, by acoustics engineers. And they set the standards that every audiophile must follow today. Well if "the argument that acoustic treatments "KILL" the sound is about as stupid a fucking argument as you've ever seen", then you should probably inform this guy of that fact:

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"it is definitely possible to make a room too dead at midrange and high frequencies"

- Ethan Winer, RealTraps

http://www.homestudioguru.com/tag/ethan-winer/
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how clueless can you get?

Not nearly as much as you already are, so don't worry. You're still king of that contest.

acoustic treatments dont help but tying a fucking reef knot or pinning a corner of your curtains up or putting a piece of blue paper under a cd player does??

Subtlety is not your strong suit, is it NC. I didn't say they don't "help". I said, it depends on what "help" means to you. As for latter stuff you mentioned, while I'm not suggesting it has anywhere near the "impact" that large acoustic panels will (although it may be more desirable, if it doesn't ruin the sound as the panels easily could), how would you know it doesn't help? Because of what it sounds like to you, or because there's no hard data proving it does?

Christ Almighty. gotta get my hip waders.

Then I suggest you do so quickly, because at the rate you're spewing out BS, you're going to lose the house.

so how could an amplifier, more than likely designed in a room with ideal acoustic conditions, be improved by throwing it in a room with less than ideal conditions? do you assume all amps are built in rooms that suck acoustically?

I don't see how your weird question is relevant to anything I said. I can only imagine you must have misunderstood something again, along the way. The acoustical footprint of an amp is not something most people bother to consider, over and above its performance.

and your "EQ" spiel demonstrates very, very clearly

So clearly, you have no argument to make against it. Again, brilliant! So basically all you've managed to prove in this entire rant is that you can blow milk out your nose. I'm sure that'll come in handy when NASCAR comes to town.

one of the first times in years that ive shot liquid out of my nose while laughing at a forum post. for that, I thank you!

You're welcome. I guess it must be a refreshing change for you, from shooting liquid out the other end.

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I thought you said you were against ad hominem attacks in a debate?

Is that what I said? If it is, allow me to correct myself. I find ad hominem *arguments* to be logically flawed.

Logically flawed? Do you mean ad hominem *arguments* are a logical fallacy?

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I find myself nodding in agreement with a number of things Kait tried explaining to you about acoustic treatments.

First let me give you props for talking about audio before disagrreing with everything you are saying. Kait didn't really "explain" anything. Probably a good choice. He expressed his opinions and sonic impressions of Sonex. I'm certainly not going to argue with him about his opinions even if I still believe he is spoofing subjectivists all the way.

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By your remarks on the subject, you act like acoustic room treatment panels are just magic pills that you take whenever you have bad sound.

No "magic" involved. What they do is pretty straight forward. Whether or not it is good or bad is entirely subjective. That is always the case when we start to talk about "good' and "bad" in a context of aesthetic values.

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That they are "proven" to work, so can not be doing anything bad to your sound.

That is your leap not mine. they are proven to work in that they do exactly what they are advertised to do. Whether or not you find it good or bad is up to you.

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They are only "proven" to have an effect on acoustic waves. So does an empty fridge box.

An empty fridge box will not act as an absorber or a bass trap though.

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As Steve has (again) been patiently trying to explain to you, "work" means a lot of things to a lot of people.

He has been making a semantical argument? I did not realize that. If that is what you want to say on Steves behalf....

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My observations with the kind of products your friend Ethan sells, in my room and that of many of my friends, is that they "Yammy-fy" your sound.

I'm not going to argue with you about your perceptions. Ethan isn't my friend though. I don't know him personally.

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What that term refers to is to sort of reduce a highly engineered Stereophile Class A/B/C/etc amplifier, into something that more resembles the sound of a mid-fi Yamaha receiver. Which gets you further away from the musical goal, not closer to it.

having gone from an actual Yamaha mid-fi reciever to ARC SP 10 and D 115 I can actually relate to that comparison. IME the effects of room treatments in my room were exactly the opposite.

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You can do the same sort of thing to the signal chain by, say, sticking an equalizer in the path of the signal, and thinking that you are improving the sound by twidding with the knobs, because you're "compensating" for your room anomalies.

You won't catch me doing that. IME it doesn't work at all.

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Completely oblivious to what the hell else that equalizer has just done to your sound. That's a good analogy actually, because sticking acoustic treatment traps on all the walls, is much like fiddling with an equalizer for the room itself.

actually it is quite different. The room treatments reduce room reflections. There can be some skewing in the frequency response if the treatment is applied without some attention to that problem. But do it right and that is not an issue. OTOH a bad room can have the same effect as an equalizer adjusted by an angry monkey.

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All rooms, like all systems, have inherent colorations. By adding large room acoustic panels, you add further colorations.

That is simply incorrect. absorbtion and bass traps can only reduce room colorations. now if one finds particular room colorations to their liking or if there is a certain synergy between one's speakers and the existing room colorations one may have a preference for the room colorations. But the effect of absorbtion and bass traps is always a reduction in room coloration.

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What happens after that depends on your belief system; measurer or listener? Just as with audio equipment, you can look at data measurements and "believe" your sound is better. Then tell your ears to shut up, if they ever suggest otherwise. Or, if you actually know how the many ways music reproduction can degrade, you might then recognize that "degrade" is what the room treatments are doing to important characteristics of your sound.

If you like the room colorations then no doubt reducing them will be a subjective degredation. So far IME I have yet to find a reduction in room colorations to ever degrade the sound of my system. It has nothing to do with liking measurements.

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But the "measurer" only hears what he chooses to hear; which is the "improvements" the treatments have made. This I believe is more or less what Kait meant by "YRMV" (Your Room May Vary). What he also said about people getting used to a certain sound, even though it is an artificial sound, can never be overstated.

There is a reason why more refined audiophiles, seeking a purer, less colored sound, avoid acoustic room treatments, even tacking carpets to the walls.

Yeah right. Nice try. More refined my ass. If you actually want less "colored" sound then you want room treatments. If you like room colorations that is your choice. Even if you don't understand that it is a coloration that you are choosing. Nothing wrong with a preference for more colored sound.

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If you prefer say amplitude over phase,

"If I prefer amplitude over phase?" I'm tryin so hard not to make fun of this.

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dryness of bass over resolution of timbre, one aspect of one measurement being more or less correct, while other aspects that may not sign in as "present!"on the manufacturer's data sheet, but can cause the relationship you have to the musical message to become worse, then room treatment products are probably for you.
But not me, sorry "dude". I won't allow anything to come into either my room, or my system, that fucks with the core elements of the sound that provides to the brain, the connection it needs to react to that sound as it does real music. And it is all too easy to screw up your sound worse, in an effort to make it better, and believe it's better to justify all your expense and bother in installing room traps. If that happens, then what you get in the end is just "sound". Noises that resemble music, but do not fool the brain very much. So it does not respond in the same way as it would in the presence of music. This is the essential reason for why the "measurers" will never see eye to eye with the "listeners". That's not to knock your system if you like the way it sounds. Just don't be telling me or anyone else here, that's that way it's gotta sound, and acoustic traps are what everybody needs, if not wants. That's just your trip.

OK......If room reflections and gross bass colorations float your boat....

No doubt there are some colorations that I like. I like the colorations of my electronics and my TT rig. I just haven't had the same luck with room colorations.

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I thought you said you were against ad hominem attacks in a debate?

Is that what I said? If it is, allow me to correct myself. I find ad hominem *arguments* to be logically flawed.

Logically flawed? Do you mean ad hominem *arguments* are a logical fallacy?

yep

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"Kait wasn't talking about all acoustic treatment...just a particular brand of foam. The argument that acoustic treatments "KILL" the sound is about as stupid a fucking argument as ive ever seen..and flies in the face of all the research that people with much more sense/cred/intelligence than any of us have done over the past 50-60-70 years."

How clueless can you get? acoustic treatments dont help but tying a fucking reef knot or pinning a corner of your curtains up or putting a piece of blue paper under a cd player does??"

Christ Almighty. gotta get my hip waders.

So how could an amplifier, more than likely designed in a room with ideal acoustic conditions, be improved by throwing it in a room with less than ideal conditions? do you assume all amps are built in rooms that suck acoustically?

and your "EQ" spiel demonstrates very, very clearly the depths of your misunderstanding(s)! about audio reproduction.

------------------------------------------------

ndcrawl - I, for one, appreciate your Travis Bickle impersonation.

"That is simply incorrect. absorbtion and bass traps can only reduce room colorations. now if one finds particular room colorations to their liking or if there is a certain synergy between one's speakers and the existing room colorations one may have a preference for the room colorations. But the effect of absorbtion and bass traps is always a reduction in room coloration."

Some-bo-dy's channeling Na-than Wi-ner... tee hee

We sometimes talk of Golden Ears or even Tin Ears, but we don't talk very much about Virgin Ears. I'm beginning to get the distinct impression you don't have nearly as much experience as you would have us believe. Whassup with that?

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and I really appreciate your Hugo Ball impersonations.

mjf and co. are going to be furious when you finally let the cat out of the bag.

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[including foam in chairs, not just Sonex acoustical foam. He also talked about acoustic ceiling tiles

no one with any clue uses that stuff anyway. it is a ruse.

You want me to explain what's goin on in your head?

Hmmmm...let me see, I'm guessing Scott dressed up for Holloween as a Helmoltz resonator. Am I close?

The CoD has been hard at work.

Ethan is deemed an attacker of competitors. Nice, in your argument, you have elevated the Synergistic ART system via your semantics!

If this is so, then where are the examples of Ethan attacking companies who pose an even more grave threat?

He leaves Primacoustic alone, he doesn't even rail at Auralex style products like P.T. Kaitt does!

Ethan doesn't attack ASC, either.

He's fine with Russ Berger Design.

Ethan doesn't stalk Sonex.

Maybe it is all about what's effective and what isn't.