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cyclebrain
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Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Yea, DUP is a pain but?
The fact remains that his contributions here have been harmful to the growth of our forum. For that reason alone, we have banned him.
His posts have been harmful to the growth? Provide data please.
For that reason alone? So you are saying that growth if the primary reason for this site? Those that post popular topics are welcome, those that are anti-mainstream are not welcome?

scottgardner
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

I suppose I could throw out a few Larry Flint quotes in support of what you are saying. OTOH there is the noise factor.

Tough call.

ethanwiner
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Those that post popular topics are welcome, those that are anti-mainstream are not welcome?


That's my take too. Sometimes the mainstream is wrong. Hell, often the mainstream is wrong!

Several other posters are far more insulting and combative than DUP, yet they're still here. DUP rarely attacks people. He only attacks ideas and products he considers BS. The only times I saw DUP attack someone personally was when they attacked him first. The crazy part is that DUP is right on the science. Yes, he incessantly harps on the same things over and over, but that just makes him annoying to those who don't like his viewpoint. But he's still right. Power cords do not have a sound no matter how many people believe otherwise.

I've met DUP in person and he's an intelligent and cordial man. More intelligent and cordial than some others in this forum.

--Ethan

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
He was polite to his elders, who disliked him. Whatever his elders told him to do, he did. They told him to look before he leaped, and he always looked before he leaped. They told him never to put off until the next day what he could do the day before, and he never did. He was told to honor his father and his mother, and he honored his father and his mother. He was told that he should not kill, and he did not kill, until he got into the Army. Then he was told to kill, and he killed. He always turned the other cheek on every occasion and always did unto others exactly as he would have had others do unto him. When he gave to charity, his left hand never knew what his right hand was doing. He never took the name of the Lord his God in vain, committed adultery or coveted his neighbour's ass. In fact, he loved his neighbour and never even bore false witness against him. Major Major's elders disliked him because he was such a flagrant nonconformist. Page 96 (paperback).

Buddha
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Look, give the guy more than five friggin' topics, the ability to figure out how to condense five nearly identical posts into one, and the sense not to create 8 threads in a row about the same subject, and it would be great.

If y'all really miss him, perhaps you can start a tribute band and just spam every damned thread with wattsslamlegacyAVAMattOreoteh.

With DUP, it was not so much the ideas behind the incessant, droning, endlessly repetitious, and often miscued posts, it was the lack of consideration for the forum.

Staying up at night to make a run of 8 individual threads in order to move a subject down the page is not my idea of a great foum member.

DUP had driven many discussions off the Rants forum purely to avoid his ceaseless interjections.

Seriously, don't you recall the Legacy AVA Whisper runs for inquiries on what gear might fit into a 1K system?

DUP was Rainman without the range.

I hope he gets on some psych meds and comes back, someday. For now, we will just have to keep his contribution alive with wattsslamLegacyAVAMattOreo posts and we will have to work together to make do with the net improvement.

bifcake
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Yea, DUP is a pain but?
The fact remains that his contributions here have been harmful to the growth of our forum. For that reason alone, we have banned him.
His posts have been harmful to the growth? Provide data please.
For that reason alone? So you are saying that growth if the primary reason for this site? Those that post popular topics are welcome, those that are anti-mainstream are not welcome?

From what I can surmise from DUP's banishment, it's ok to post to these forums as long as you drink the kool aid. If you stop drinking the kool aid, they'll tolerate you for a while, but then they'll banish you so you wouldn't spread your heretical ideas about this whole industry.

There was absolutely no reason to ban DUP at all. They confined them to the rants section, and he ranted. He didn't veer off from it. He wasn't insulting like other members who apparently have not been banned and I don't see how he could have driven anyone from the forums. In fact, I believe Stephen himself wrote in his blogs how the forums have grown. So, DUP hasn't driven people off.

This whole thing leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I got to meet DUP and he actually helped me find the speaker that provides the kind of a performance that I was looking for and doesn't break the bank. I found him to be cordial, fun and witty. If I had joined the forums after his banishment, then I would still be searching for that audio nirvana on a budget. The same goes for my friend Stew.

What good are the audio forums if we can't exchange radical ideas about audio? Can't we be adults enough to be able to filter through the 'noise' and concentrate on the content? Can't we be adults enough not to be scared by the rants of DUP the boogie man?

I say BRING BACK DUP!

scottgardner
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Maybe just two quotes:

"We figure that freedom of the press is only important if it

Buddha
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

Quote:
Yea, DUP is a pain but?
The fact remains that his contributions here have been harmful to the growth of our forum. For that reason alone, we have banned him.
His posts have been harmful to the growth? Provide data please.
For that reason alone? So you are saying that growth if the primary reason for this site? Those that post popular topics are welcome, those that are anti-mainstream are not welcome?

From what I can surmise from DUP's banishment, it's ok to post to these forums as long as you drink the kool aid. If you stop drinking the kool aid, they'll tolerate you for a while, but then they'll banish you so you wouldn't spread your heretical ideas about this whole industry.

There was absolutely no reason to ban DUP at all. They confined them to the rants section, and he ranted. He didn't veer off from it. He wasn't insulting like other members who apparently have not been banned and I don't see how he could have driven anyone from the forums. In fact, I believe Stephen himself wrote in his blogs how the forums have grown. So, DUP hasn't driven people off.

This whole thing leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I got to meet DUP and he actually helped me find the speaker that provides the kind of a performance that I was looking for and doesn't break the bank. I found him to be cordial, fun and witty. If I had joined the forums after his banishment, then I would still be searching for that audio nirvana on a budget. The same goes for my friend Stew.

What good are the audio forums if we can't exchange radical ideas about audio? Can't we be adults enough to be able to filter through the 'noise' and concentrate on the content? Can't we be adults enough not to be scared by the rants of DUP the boogie man?

I say BRING BACK DUP!

AlexO, how do explain Ethan's continued presence, if we are required to 'drink the Kool Aid?'

There are plenty of objectivist opinions here, so I would dare say it is not DUP's philosophy that got him banned.

I think trying to make this about DUP's banishment being because he is an objectivist is inaccurate of you.

You say you met him in person. You found him to be cordial, fun, and witty, and you point that out in contradistinction to his persona here.

I think your distinction between DUP the person and DUP the online persona actually shows that you do understand the online problem with DUP.

In person, at Stew's, did DUP focus in on Stew's interconnects and then perseverate about them to the exclusion of other conversation?

Did he insist you only listen to Matt Oreo?

I bet not. If he did, would you have found him as charming?

Yet, he did that here to the point of mundanity.

Before his previous ban, he had evolved his style to the point of interjecting himself into discussions about 300 dollar speakers and performing his "Legacy/AVA Schtick" apropos of nothing.

Really, if you miss him, just look back at his posts, maybe bring them forward, or quote him. It shouldn't be tough, 'cause he only said five things.

I also like the part about DUP helping find 'audio Nirvana on a budget.' What budget numbers are you talking about?

And Stew, on a search for budget gear?

How much did he spend for his previous pair of speakers?

Good one, 'budget.'

"Can't we be adults enough to be able to filter through the 'noise' and concentrate on the content? Can't we be adults enough not to be scared by the rants of DUP the boogie man?"

Yes, but it should have been a two way street.

I wouldn't put up with my 8 year old son acting like DUP, let alone a fellow adult.

We all lose it from time to time, but you can't even fall back on 'having a bad day,' or 'got carried away' for DUP. He was only about his five topics and spamming them into every conceivable thread.

If Stereophile asked him on numerous occassions to try to be more civil, and he would not, I have no problem with them asking him to step out of their 'house.'

bifcake
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

AlexO, how do explain Ethan's continued presence, if we are required to 'drink the Kool Aid?'

There are plenty of objectivist opinions here, so I would dare say it is not DUP's philosophy that got him banned.

I think trying to make this about DUP's banishment being because he is an objectivist is inaccurate of you.

DUP's banishment has no objective reason. It's purely personal in that I think the staff found him hard to take. I think it's as simple as that.


Quote:
You say you met him in person. You found him to be cordial, fun, and witty, and you point that out in contradistinction to his persona here.

I think your distinction between DUP the person and DUP the online persona actually shows that you do understand the online problem with DUP.

I won't argue that DUP's online persona is the smoothest one out there, but his persona had been dealt with. They limited him to the rants section. I thought that was a working compromise. There was no reason to banish him from the forums.


Quote:

In person, at Stew's, did DUP focus in on Stew's interconnects and then perseverate about them to the exclusion of other conversation?

Not to the exclusion of all other conversations, but he did make his points and he did make them in no uncertain terms. We actually entertained his ideas and there were changes incorporated due to them.


Quote:
Did he insist you only listen to Matt Oreo?

He didn't insist that we ONLY listen to Matt Oreo, but he did bring his CDs with him and we heard them along with other things we had. As with anything else, some of the stuff we liked and some of the stuff we didn't.


Quote:

Before his previous ban, he had evolved his style to the point of interjecting himself into discussions about 300 dollar speakers and performing his "Legacy/AVA Schtick" apropos of nothing.

But that had been dealt with. He was limited to the rants forums. Hence, a working compromise.


Quote:

I also like the part about DUP helping find 'audio Nirvana on a budget.' What budget numbers are you talking about?

And Stew, on a search for budget gear?

How much did he spend for his previous pair of speakers?

Good one, 'budget.'

"Budget" is a relative term as is "performance". DUP helped us achieve the level of performance we were not able to achieve with the budget. Granted, it's a lot of money. I mean, it's a LOT of money, but I hadn't heard anything that would sound this good for less than 5x that amount. Besides, if you buy it used, you can achieve this performance for about 15k total (including amps, source, speakers, etc.) That's your average stereophile reader system budget.

"Can't we be adults enough to be able to filter through the 'noise' and concentrate on the content? Can't we be adults enough not to be scared by the rants of DUP the boogie man?"


Quote:

If Stereophile asked him on numerous occassions to try to be more civil, and he would not, I have no problem with them asking him to step out of their 'house.'

You had to take his online persona for what it was. Everyone knew his online persona. There were no surprises. And as far as being civil, he was civil. Much more so than other members on these forums.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Hey, lighten up, Buddha. You were probably part of the mob that go him hanged. Prima donna. Don't be going around stating somebody needs to be on medication when you're probably already taking Paxil or something.

And as for you Stephen, what does it feel like to be the product of your own commentary? Don't tell me you like Guantanamo.

Buddha
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Hey, lighten up, Buddha. You were probably part of the mob that go him hanged. Prima donna. Don't be going around stating somebody needs to be on medication when you're probably already taking Paxil or something.

And as for you Stephen, what does it feel like to be the product of your own commentary? Don't tell me you like Guantanamo.

I don't think there was a mob. That's giving DUP too much credit. More like a growing cloud of "ignore" settings and trips to "The Dead Zone."

I'm sure you and AlexO can still catch DUP in all his glory on any of a number of Hi Fi websites who more dearly treasure his style.

I mean, if Stereophile inappropriately ran off such an asset, he should still be prominent on all the other audio forums, right?

Heck, if you really think DUP got run off for his opinions, then you guys should be worried by disagreeing with Stephen and JA's decision. But ya aren't are ya?

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Hey, lighten up, Buddha. You were probably part of the mob that go him hanged. Prima donna. Don't be going around stating somebody needs to be on medication when you're probably already taking Paxil or something.

And as for you Stephen, what does it feel like to be the product of your own commentary? Don't tell me you like Guantanamo.

You know how there was always that one kid in class who strained to raise their hand the highest on every question, whether they knew the answer or not?

You know how he/she always bragged that their dad was the richest, their car the best, their mom the prettiest?

You know how everybody argued with them the first few weeks of school, then just left them alone and avoided them?

But they couldn't stand not being the center of attention, so they persisted and pestered and cried and yelled until the nuns had to threaten to spank their sorry ass unless they sat down and shut up?

That was Catholic school, not Guantanomo. And apparently not this forum, either.

Every civil thread was spammed or outposted into the nether pages by DUP. Stephen said it was not what he said, but how he said it. I'll buy that.

If you want DUP or Hustler, there are better places. This isn't about freedom of speech or democracy, but the freedom of the forum administrators to run the kind of website they prefer. "Sometimes, there are worse things than censorship."*

But I admire the loyalty of his friends that come to his defense!

(*rvance, after Dup's second ban- my repetitious homage to DUP.)

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Stop the blatant brown nosing. DUP has been around since the start. I guess you were part of the mob that had to shut him up once and for all as well? Lord of the Flies. You guys you should read it.

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Stop the blatant brown nosing. DUP has been around since the start. I guess you were part of the mob that had to shut him up once and for all as well? Lord of the Flies. You guys you should read it.

Read it, hell! Who do ya think put DUP's head on a stake?

After we do Bush's dirty work on Guantanomo and squash the freedom fighters in Tibet we're puttin' on the hoods and going after all contrarian audiophiles- so be careful, Lamont. It's a Brave New World! 1984! Fahrenheit 451! I Think We're All Bozos On This Bus! (How'd that one get in here?)

But I do understand how DUP was here from the beginning and should be given extra credit for longevity. Not to mention the dogged persistence of posting the same thing 3 1/2 times a day for three years. That covered a lot of ground for the members who didn't have the time to repeat themselves so much.

RGibran
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

I think a moment of silence and some respect is in order!

RG

linden518
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Lamont, I don't know you & I haven't a thing against you, but it's a bit baffling to me why you choose to see all of this as some conspiracy theory. It's for certain that almost all of you have been at this forum longer than me, so I'm going ot confine this to my personal experience only.

For me, there were only two issues with DUP. The first of which is that he took up almost all of the posts to discuss his own agenda to the exclusion of the others' participation. But to be honest, the second point really bothered me to the point that I started looking at Stereophile's forum as being spineless. Which is that DUP's comments about the Holocaust not having happened, and the fact that various nasty things he said about genocide & the Native Indians were condoned here. I simply hated it, so much that for a while, I didn't post here.

Hear me out. I don't know DUP personally, but I know enough that I've heard that he's married to a lovely Korean woman. I think someone here tried to intimate that he could not possibly have said racist things just because he was married to an Asian woman. Here's the thing. I'm Korean, too, and some of the weirdest, racist things I've ever heard were from people who were related or married to some "other" race. It is, at the very least, bizarre what DUP said about the Holocaust and other genocides, and practically barf-worthy what he said, skirting the issue of history. Black or yellow or brown or whatever, that shit is just low.

I understand some of you have met DUP personally, and loved him more. Here's the thing: I'm absolutely certain that if I'd met DUP in person, I would've really dug the guy. I have no doubt that he is nice in person, just sparkling and lovely. But as Stephen said (which I concur with him 100%), what we see online is the persona only, and not the person, and as such, his persona is really a shit-stinker. Believe me. If he pulled this crap about the Holocaust or some other genocidal massacres in Audio Circle or Audio Asylum? His ass would've been cake a LONG time ago.

And for the argument that Stereophile or this forum can't stand DUP's ideology? I don't think that's true. As Buddha's pointed out, Ethan's audio-ethos run pretty close to DUP's, and he's still here. And as for me personally? I will have it publicly known that more than anyone else here, I missed AlexO's contributions most recently (along with Strut's). AlexO's pretty in line with DUP's philosophy of audio-thinking, but I've always thought that AlexO flew against the mainstream with a sense of humor (better than most of us) and level-headed intelligence (which is why I don't understand why he keeps frothing in the mouth about DUP ) When I started out in this hobby last December, 3 people who gave me the most pointed & valuable advices were practical were AlexO, KBK and jackfish, and despite what some people might say, I still value what some of these 3 guys have to say, no matter what. So let's let go of the lynch mob theory. That's just weak.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

Quote:
Hey, lighten up, Buddha. You were probably part of the mob that go him hanged. Prima donna. Don't be going around stating somebody needs to be on medication when you're probably already taking Paxil or something.

And as for you Stephen, what does it feel like to be the product of your own commentary? Don't tell me you like Guantanamo.

I don't think there was a mob. That's giving DUP too much credit. More like a growing cloud of "ignore" settings and trips to "The Dead Zone."

I'm sure you and AlexO can still catch DUP in all his glory on any of a number of Hi Fi websites who more dearly treasure his style.

I mean, if Stereophile inappropriately ran off such an asset, he should still be prominent on all the other audio forums, right?

Heck, if you really think DUP got run off for his opinions, then you guys should be worried by disagreeing with Stephen and JA's decision. But ya aren't are ya?

Yes, I am, Buddha. I took Stephen's inventory in the same post your quoted. But you didn't read it did ya?


Quote:
Sgt. Barnes: Y'all loved Elias. And you want to kick ass. Yeah. Well, here I am, all by my lonesome. And there ain't anybody gonna know. Six of you boys against me. Kill me.
[Everyone stays put]

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Selfdiver

I don't disagree but this is eventually going to create only one alliance on this forum. Some democracy. Pft!

The admins took too liberal a stance from the start. People like Barnes are right. Had DUP been dealt with appropriatley from the start then he would be a fleeting memory available by deep search only. Playing Ring Around the Posey doesn't cut it. That is the platform we were given to operate on. So, Buddha is right. The bloody head of DUP lay on the laps of the liberal admins on the board that eventually realized that they needed to kill. No different than the government making stupid decisions that we see day in and day out.

This is what we should be stating about the admins of this BBS.


Quote:
KING
Then you jes gonna forget 'bout Elias and all the good times we done had? Right in here.

RHAH
He dugged his own grave.

DOC
(correcting)
He dug it.

RHAH
He DUGGED it too.

We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with eccentricity. Whose gonna do it? You? The admins have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom.... You have the luxury of not knowing what they know. And while their existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives (probably even DUP's). You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want them on that wall, you need them on that wall.

But that doesn't make it so. Does it? They will never admit failure of policy. That goes against their own dogma that they spout and the opposite dogma they find themselves forced to use because it works. It works just as well from the beginning than leaving a trail of popcorn marking all the mistakes along the way. This is why I have always supported DUP in spite of his blatant shortcomings. Please notice that DUP and I never conversed on anything. On this BBS he was a product of his own environment. No Stereophile left behind my ass. It doesn't work in real life so what made them think it would work here?

I'm been waiting for this day for a long time. DUP controls the board for years. They eventually have to kill him. Nobody saw this coming? There is nothing to justify. He should have been killed early on. But that didn't happen. DUP got my support because of that phallacy. I never had to put him on ignore. I never read enough of his posts to even know what the problem was. Ever.

Now we can settle the argument that three felonies and you get a life sentence. It works. But look at the destruction it leaves in its wake. By the time DUP got his first felony he was already a habitual criminal. For most organizations that is already a death sentence.

What happened to DUP and the way it affected the BBS is a good example of why socialism doesn't work. I don't want to read any talk about how this BBS is a democracy.

bifcake
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

And for the argument that Stereophile or this forum can't stand DUP's ideology? I don't think that's true. As Buddha's pointed out, Ethan's audio-ethos run pretty close to DUP's, and he's still here. And as for me personally? I will have it publicly known that more than anyone else here, I missed AlexO's contributions most recently (along with Strut's). AlexO's pretty in line with DUP's philosophy of audio-thinking, but I've always thought that AlexO flew against the mainstream with a sense of humor (better than most of us) and level-headed intelligence (which is why I don't understand why he keeps frothing in the mouth about DUP ) When I started out in this hobby last December, 3 people who gave me the most pointed & valuable advices were practical were AlexO, KBK and jackfish, and despite what some people might say, I still value what some of these 3 guys have to say, no matter what. So let's let go of the lynch mob theory. That's just weak.

First of all, thank you for the kind sentiment. Flattery will get you everywhere.

Re: DUP, I didn't read the various remarks that you alluded to, but I assume that there is at least some truth to them. If DUP had been banned for that reason, there probably would be no discussion about his banishment. There's nothing to be said about it because aside from being distasteful, this is not a political forum and such discussions have no place here. Just as discussions about macro economics, investments and other non-audio discussions are out of place.

However, that's not the reason DUP was banned. So, I am only to assume that a group of people ganged up on him and Stephen finally relented and banned him. It's THAT type of handling that I object to. DUP wasn't properly handled. He was not fairly handled. He was given a free rein in the rants section and he exercised it. If that was a problem, than the condition of his reinstatement should have been properly specified. As far as I'm concerned, he was well within the established rules. That's the thing that gets my panties in a bunch.

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Selfdiver

I don't disagree but this is eventually going to create only one alliance on this forum. Some democracy. Pft!

The admins took too liberal a stance from the start. People like Barnes are right. Had DUP been dealt with appropriatley from the start then he would be a fleeting memory available by deep search only. Playing Ring Around the Posey doesn't cut it. That is the platform we were given to operate on. So, Buddha is right. The bloody head of DUP lay on the laps of the liberal admins on the board that eventually realized that they needed to kill. No different than the government making stupid decisions that we see day in and day out.

This is what we should be stating about the admins of this BBS.


Quote:
KING
Then you jes gonna forget 'bout Elias and all the good times we done had? Right in here.

RHAH
He dugged his own grave.

DOC
(correcting)
He dug it.

RHAH
He DUGGED it too.

We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with eccentricity. Whose gonna do it? You? The admins have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom.... You have the luxury of not knowing what they know. And while their existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives (probably even DUP's). You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want them on that wall, you need them on that wall.

But that doesn't make it so. Does it? They will never admit failure of policy. That goes against their own dogma that they spout and the opposite dogma they find themselves forced to use because it works. It works just as well from the beginning than leaving a trail of popcorn marking all the mistakes along the way. This is why I have always supported DUP in spite of his blatant shortcomings. Please notice that DUP and I never conversed on anything. On this BBS he was a product of his own environment. No Stereophile left behind my ass. It doesn't work in real life so what made them think it would work here?

I'm been waiting for this day for a long time. DUP controls the board for years. They eventually have to kill him. Nobody saw this coming? There is nothing to justify. He should have been killed early on. But that didn't happen. DUP got my support because of that phallacy. I never had to put him on ignore. I never read enough of his posts to even know what the problem was. Ever.

Now we can settle the argument that three felonies and you get a life sentence. It works. But look at the destruction it leaves in its wake. By the time DUP got his first felony he was already a habitual criminal. For most organizations that is already a death sentence.

What happened to DUP and the way it affected the BBS is a good example of why socialism doesn't work. I don't want to read any talk about how this BBS is a democracy.

Lamont, This is some wacky, convoluted theory you've laid down. I'm not sure why you have such a deep beef with the forum, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with reality as I know it. I know weird. Weird's a good friend of mine. This is beyond weird.

As for the "brown nosing" comment- thanks for your insight. I came to Stereophile and this forum to exchange enthusiasms about music- the art and reproduction, thereof. But I'm constantly amazed at the energy and time people have to bitch and moan about all their disappointments with the magazine- and the way they use these forums to vent their carloads of bile and angst. How about a little break from the pity party?

Stereophile is a great source of info and shares my interest in music, despite the fact I hardly ever see equipment I can afford or audition. I like it. I like Stephen's blog- it's why I joined the forum. Guess that's a brown noser, huh? I need to find a place I can criticize and gripe about. That would be joining the real mainstream around here.

For the record, I never contacted Stephen or anyone about DUP's excesses. I can't imagine too many others doing so, either. His trip took its own course and he blew his wad. Over and over again.

Strangely, one of the best contributions I've seen in this forum was AlexO's quest for sound and the DUP chronicles. It was great to see a human face put on such an icon of mirthlessness. It gave DUP some genuine credibility. DUP squandered it. Instead, it fueled his "I love it when I'm right" campaign, where he redoubled his efforts to push his obnoxious agenda. Let him get some needed rest. You too.

ethanwiner
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Ethan's audio-ethos run pretty close to DUP's, and he's still here.


Yes, though I've been banned permanently from Audioholics for not drinking their Audyssey Kool-Aid, and I've had several posts deleted and been given warnings at Audio Circle and the Tweaks section of the aptly-named Audio Asylum. The guys who run the AVS forum aren't very fond of me either.

Believers can't stand it when guys like DUP and I know more about audio than they do, and they know we know more than them. But rather than take the time to learn something about audio all they have is Might Makes Right, and they shout down everyone who disagrees. Exactly the way Sean Hannity shouts over someone who's winning an argument on the facts.

As much as I love DUP and agree with 99 percent of his positions, I do understand that he can be abrasive. If I had to criticize anything DUP does, it would be starting half a dozen new threads the same day to rant on various snake oil products. I agree with him completely on every one of those threads! But sometimes less is more.

I still think his posts are informative, valuable, and certainly less abrasive than posts by several others who are still here. Again, DUP attacks fraudulent products and bad science, not people. In his heart of hearts I am certain DUP is genuinely trying to help.

Long live DUP!

--Ethan

andy19191
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

> Whether DUP's viewpoints were right or wrong is an irrelevant consideration. The fact
> remains that his contributions here have been harmful to the growth of our forum. For that
> reason alone, we have banned him.

Does anyone who is arguing on the side of DUP disagree with this statement?

This forum is paid for by Stereophile and will have to contribute to the income stream by making Stereophile a more attractive vehicle for advertisers. This essentially means more eyeballs attached to people interested in the advertised wares. A brief look at the sizes of some of the many other audiophile fora (forums?) shows that there is considerable potential for growth.

Were DUPs posts helping or hindering the possibility for growth?

I would suggest that someone starting to adopt audiophile beliefs is going to be put off by posts like DUPs. Not so much the scientific argument since audiophiles would not be audiophiles if they responded to reason based on science but the contempt. Perhaps they moved on and posted on a forum with a lower proportion of DUPish posts.

Would the Stereophile community react badly to DUPs ban?

It looks like one or two might have misgivings but, as far as I can judge, the successful audio and audiophile sites do ban and enforce rules to drive off posts from either audiophile believers or scientific believers depending on the type of community those running the forum wish to grow.

Ethan has not said what he feels about being banned but I have recently discovered that I can no longer login to the AudioAsylum site. Fair enough, I hold scientific rather than audiophile beliefs and so was a guest rather than a member of the community. I suspect DUP wanted to be a member of this community for reasons that are not apparent to me since he did not sign up for the communities values and beliefs. If I was running this site I would have banned DUP as quickly possible.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Rvance:

This thread isn't about you. So, stop talking about yourself. Over and over and over again.

tomjtx
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I also find it disappointing that DUP was banned.

I take solace in the fact that Obama will win :-)

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Rvance:

This thread isn't about you. So, stop talking about yourself. Over and over and over again.

LOL

Ah-mmm, ah-mmm, ah-mmm, ah-mmm

Well, I went to a dance just the other night
Everybody there was stag
I said over and over and over again
This dance is gonna be a drag
I said over and over and over again
This dance is gonna be a drag
I said over and over and over again
This dance is gonna be a drag

"Put The 'F' Back In Dave Clark Five!"

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

"Put The 'F' Back In Dave Clark Five!"

That's good enough for me.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
I also find it disappointing that DUP was banned.

I take solace in the fact that Obama will win :-)

I'm gonna join his National Security Force. They'll call me "Big Joe" like on Combat.

andy_c
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

I noticed a week or so ago that there was a thread in which people were complimenting Stephen for his work as moderator - I suspect because of all the porn posts he had to delete. One of the things that struck me at that time was not so much all the effort that had gone into deleting these posts (which I'm sure was quite a bit), but also what I saw as a commendable "hands off" policy regarding the wide variety of views expressed on "General Rants 'n' Raves". I have seen the so-called "mission statements" of other forums, such as"Cables" and "Isolation Ward" on AA. These so-called "mission statements" are nothing more than attempts to limit the points of view expressed to those that correspond to the industry-friendly position of "suspend disbelief and whip out your wallet". On Audio Circle, the moderator of one forum created a "DBT-free zone". Now he has his own business selling, among other things, snake oil audiophile power cords. That's just one of many examples of the corruption of the so-called "high end" audio business. Pathetic, but also very common. In fact, it's the norm.

Yet despite all this, what has amazed me for some time is the uncensored nature of the Stereophile forums. I always found it somewhat of a paradox. When reading Stereophile, it's obvious that it's intended for those who drink the Kool Aid. Yet General Rants 'n' Raves seemed a celebration of just the opposite. Because of that apparent conflict, I had a great deal of respect for Stephen and his ability to walk this line while not restricting expression. I had even contemplated posting a complimentary message to that thread, praising Stephen for his restraint in keeping free expression in General Rants 'n' Raves.

I'm glad I didn't now.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

You need to join more forums. Paradox? You're joking right? You want to see where the junk mail goes? Scroll down below G&R and you will find the same delete forum as the rest you just cross-forum trashed. All this Stephen Fellatio is going to make me throw up.

andy19191
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

> but also what I saw as a commendable "hands off" policy regarding the wide
> variety of views expressed on "General Rants 'n' Raves".

Indeed but does a hands off policy work in the real world? If this site was more comfortable for those that held audiophile beliefs would that be a good or bad thing?

> I have seen the so-called "mission statements" of other forums, such
> as"Cables" and "Isolation Ward" on AA. These so-called "mission statements"
> are nothing more than attempts to limit the points of view expressed to those
> that correspond to the industry-friendly position of "suspend disbelief and
> whip out your wallet".

The AudioAsylum is a successful audiophile site and has taken a number of actions to help the process. They created a Propeller Head forum in order to shift scientific discussion out of the main forums and appears to have been largely successful in doing this. The forum itself is one big argument like a usenet audio group with almost no scientific content but it has created a place for audiophile dissenters to go and dissent without disrupting the main forums.

This has made it reasonable to insist that the scientific view is posted in the Propeller Head forum and not the Cable or Isolation Ward forums where it would be very disruptive to those that have chosen to believe in cables and isolation wards. The scientific view is in some sense correct in being mankind's best guess at how the world works but does that mean it should always be allowed to intrude everywhere even in forums where it is unwelcome? I have not looked at the Isolation Ward but the Cable asylum seems to be a fairly comfortable place for those that would like to believe in cables.

You express concerns about the commercial presence in most forums but how else are things going to get funded? The audiophile consumer always has a choice about where they look for their information and what they choose to believe. If they want a scientific view it is easy enough to find although there is admitedly no commercial incentive to promote it in the way of the audiophile view.

Welshsox
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Ive been following all the complaining and opinions.

This is a very simple situation. Its Stereophiles forum and they can run it how they want to, if you dont like it quit and move to another forum.

What is so difficult to understand ?

DUP is gone, live with it.

Alan

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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

Quote:
I also find it disappointing that DUP was banned.

I take solace in the fact that Obama will win :-)

I'm gonna join his National Security Force. They'll call me "Big Joe" like on Combat. quote.

I heard Obama is going to enlist DUP and his AVA/Legacy's to flush out the terrorists in the mountains.
DUP's big rig and his CD collection should do the trick.

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
All this Stephen Fellatio is going to make me throw up.

I hope you at least got dinner and a show.

Buddha
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Ok, now I get it.

You made a joke like he's fellating Stephen.

D'uh.

Carry on.

judicata
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

This is a very simple situation. Its Stereophiles forum and they can run it how they want to, if you dont like it quit and move to another forum.

What is so difficult to understand ?

I think the problems lies somewhere within the difference between "can" and "should." Although here I think it was probably appropriate, having a healthy debate is fair, as long as we can put this thing to rest afterward.

I'm one of the guys that agreed with DUP's opinions 90% of the time (or at least didn't disagree with him). But his flooding, rambling, inflammatory, non-sensical posts sometimes became a bit too much. If this were the first step in handling the situation, I'd be hesitant to support it. But it seems that the situation has quite a history with which I was not involved.

ethanwiner
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Its Stereophiles forum and they can run it how they want to, if you dont like it quit and move to another forum.


I agree with that completely. But I also feel strongly that truth and honesty are valuable in their own right. Which is why some of us petition for that, even though we understand fully it's Stereophile's right to do as they please since they pay the web host. A perfect example is parents who do not want evolution taught in schools. Yes, they pay taxes, but is it their "right" to mis-educate their children (and the children of others) just because they believe in fantasy? I say No.

--Ethan

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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

Quote:
Its Stereophiles forum and they can run it how they want to, if you dont like it quit and move to another forum.


I agree with that completely. But I also feel strongly that truth and honesty are valuable in their own right. Which is why some of us petition for that, even though we understand fully it's Stereophile's right to do as they please since they pay the web host. A perfect example is parents who do not want evolution taught in schools. Yes, they pay taxes, but is it their "right" to mis-educate their children (and the children of others) just because they believe in fantasy? I say No.

--Ethan

Well, that should be non-controversial!

I still maintain that Stereophile has nothing against "truth" and "honesty," it's how they are delivered.

Elk
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
A perfect example is parents who do not want evolution taught in schools. Yes, they pay taxes, but is it their "right" to mis-educate their children (and the children of others) just because they believe in fantasy? I say No.


Fortunately the Constitution also says, "no" - and also says no to teaching creationism and "intelligent" design (speaking of oxymorons).

-back to your regular scheduled programming.

andy_c
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

You may be interested to know that the theory of gravity has been superseded by the theory of Intelligent Falling

judicata
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

Quote:
A perfect example is parents who do not want evolution taught in schools. Yes, they pay taxes, but is it their "right" to mis-educate their children (and the children of others) just because they believe in fantasy? I say No.


Fortunately the Constitution also says, "no" - and also says no to teaching creationism and "intelligent" design (speaking of oxymorons).

-back to your regular scheduled programming.

In an attempt to both respond and bring this back on topic: YES it is the parents right to miseducate their children - they can teach them whatever they want in their homes, and the government cannot (and should not) say anything, whether they are teaching plain ignorance or racism or whatever. And YES SF has a right to ban people even if they are wrong in doing so.

But, as I said before, we're not debating rights, since this is not a public forum (it is a private one, not run by the government). Therefore, we can debate whether an action (e.g., banning, mis-education) is right or wrong.

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:

Quote:
A perfect example is parents who do not want evolution taught in schools. Yes, they pay taxes, but is it their "right" to mis-educate their children (and the children of others) just because they believe in fantasy? I say No.


Fortunately the Constitution also says, "no" - and also says no to teaching creationism and "intelligent" design (speaking of oxymorons).

-back to your regular scheduled programming.

As I recall from my Catholic school days, before "intelligent design" had a name, we were taught there was no conflict between Science and Religion. Creation/evolution was God's plan all along! So whatever Absolute, Incontrivertible Facts that the Men of True Science promoted (until the next better theory was adopted) were all presumed under the imprimatur of the Infallible Pope.

tomjtx
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

At Jesuit High School we had classes in Christian existentialism :-)

And , as well, God created man through evolution.

Short and simple solution.

But the ID crowd believes the world was created in 7 days and man coexisted with the dinosaurs.
Kinda hard to reason with nut jobs like that.

Welshsox
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Again we are off track.

I do not believe in god or any other religions version of him.

That is my right, its every other persons right to believe what they want to.

Its not my place to judge other peoples religion, parenting or any other such thing.

It was also not DUPs place to continually attack and degrade anyone who didnt agree with his version of HIFI

I also believe he is GONE !!

I believe im happy about that.

Alan

tomjtx
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

I am glad you are happy. However let us grouse to our hearts content so that we can be happy as well.

After all, if our bitching annoys you that is your own responsibility and you can always, as you so aptly put it, leave this forum yourself

rvance
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
At Jesuit High School we had classes in Christian existentialism :-)

And , as well, God created man through evolution.

Short and simple solution.

But the ID crowd believes the world was created in 7 days and man coexisted with the dinosaurs.
Kinda hard to reason with nut jobs like that.

Tom, The Servites always had a deep respect for their Jesuit brothers. And, of course, ID can't possibly be valid. If we existed alongside the dinosaurs then what did we use for oil and gas?

Buddha
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Again we are off track.

Alan

To quote our outgoing President...

"Mission Accomplished!"

To riff on your take:

I believe we should only speak good of the banned.

DUP is banned.

Good.

tomjtx
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

DUP,
I know you are reading :-)

Just empty your cookies, create a new name(something more subtle than PUD) and come back.

If you will just stay on your meds you wont get caught.

Elk
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
You may be interested to know that the theory of gravity has been superseded by the theory of Intelligent Falling


Great one!

Thanks for the link! I laughed. I cried. I couldn't tear my eyes from the screen.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post


Quote:
Again we are off track.

I do not believe in god or any other religions version of him.

That is my right, its every other persons right to believe what they want to.

Its not my place to judge other peoples religion, parenting or any other such thing.

It was also not DUPs place to continually attack and degrade anyone who didnt agree with his version of HIFI

I also believe he is GONE !!

I believe im happy about that.

Alan

Another goddamn atheist that can't spell and wants us to know both. In fact, he writes at about the same grade level as DUP. He should be banished.

mjalazard
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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

I guess DUP is lucky that he was just banned. In light of all the religious/historical notes previously mentioned, centuries ago, DUP would have probably been declared a heretic and burned at the stake. He's gone, let's move on. We just may see him soon on an infomercial selling Men's razors!

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Re: Nice, no way to respond to DUP ban post

Another goddamn atheist that can't spell and wants us to know both. In fact, he writes at about the same grade level as DUP. He should be banished.

Im not a goddam atheist, im a goddam agnostic you goddam *******

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