Music? Or Sound? JVS Elaborates

When I reread my February “As We See It,” Music? Or Sound?, my first thoughts about a piece I had written a while ago were: (1) I wish I’d devoted less space to telling the story and more to expanding upon my thesis; and (2) I’m afraid that my motivation will be misconstrued. Indeed, the flurry of furious comments makes clear that I failed to make the best case for my argument.

I regret that, to some, I came off as arrogant or condescending. It’s not that I have a golden ear; rather, I’ve had sufficient experience with the particular performers and compositions in the recordings used at the demo to have developed a set of expectations as to how those recordings should sound. The reason why others at our listening sessions weren’t immediately “able” to hear the imbalances I heard is that I had the advantage of hearing the recordings in widely varying contexts over years of blogging audio shows.

People tend to trust reviewers who have devoted considerable time to amassing a storehouse of listening experiences that enable them to make valuable critical calls about equipment and recordings. It’s not that these reviewers necessarily have superior judgment; it’s rather that they’ve established standards by which to evaluate the material at hand. They have learned how to both focus on specific elements, and to sit back and take in the big picture. IMHO, those reviewers who are equipped to assess how the entire listening experience makes them feel have an obligation to educated readers and elevate discourse by discussing how equipment can present music in ways that transcend the sum total of its parts.—Jason Victor Serinus


MVBC's picture

Looking forward to read about these measurements in relation to audible qualities.

ChrisS's picture

The air waves are full of sound, the silence just in your head.

MVBC's picture

ChrisS no.

JA responded with interest to my proposal although not after being pressed. Aren't you at least interested in relating measured parameters and audible characteristics? As for a cable manufacturer company, there must be an objective way beyond the cost of producing one versus the other, to rank their products and their benefits. Let's get to the bottom of this instead of shouting birds name to each others. 

ChrisS's picture

Sorry, spoke too soon! I still find however that trying different components in my system and listening is the bottom line. I have  Linn (perhaps that's why I get so feisty!), so of course, I'm always told Linn works best with Linn. I've tried components "outside the box" and have found some that made my system sound awful and some that made significant improvements. The numbers might prove to be interesting.

MVBC's picture

My sources are Linn (LP12 and Unidisk 1.1). Regardless if effectively we can hear a difference between speaker cables, this difference has to be quantified and related to measurable parameters in order to become a repeatable characteristic. It might very well be that interaction between the same cable and different electronics will produce variations. Fine. We need to know why and we also need to know if more information is indeed true to the signal. That's how science works and that's offering reliable information to potential buyers. Everyone should be interested in this and just as this approach works in determining investment strategies, it also would weed out the overpriced/overclaimed ones and reward the true quality. 

ChrisS's picture

Most of my system is Linn (except for DVD, tape player, tuner). I am happy to leave the number crunching to the manufacturers and those who need to analyze this kind of data for their specfic uses.  As a consumer "enthusiast", I rely solely on my ears and my response to what I hear to guide me on that twisty, winding path towards better sound and, perhaps, better music as Jason has described in his article. Personal finances, of course, ultimately dictates the level to which I can aspire and although I know there is always better (the bane of reading Stereophile!), I am quite happy with the system I have now. I believe the years of reading publications, like Stereophile, has provided the education and mentorship, as John Atkinson has written above, that has led to greater fun and enjoyment of this hobby and a deeper appreciation of the entire process that can bring John Coltrane, the Boston Symphony, and Arcade Fire into my living room.

Joe8423's picture

Maybe you can't tell the difference with normal lengths of wire but say you took some everyday type wire and measured these values.  Then, you took a 2 foot pair and compared it to 10, 20, 50 and 100 foot pairs.  If the 2 foot pair has 20pF and the 100 foot pair has 1,000 pF then you'd better be able to hear the difference in a dbt.  If the difference is still too subtle for a dbt then anyone who claims there's a substantial difference between 92 pF and 118 pF for 10 foot pairs of the above is clearly a silly goose.  If you can hear the difference in a dbt then it would be possible to find the dbt threshold.  Maybe 35 feet is the shortest length where the differences can be scientifically proven to exist by a dbt.  That would be fantastic.  Then dbt would be a new parameter that cable manufacturers could use.  They could do measurements and advertise that their cable is scientifically determined to be distinguishable from zipcord at a length of x feet.  The lower x is the better the cable must be.  Dang!!!   I've just solved this whole problem.  Then, golden ears could claim they hear and appreciate the difference at only 40% of the scientifically determined audible difference length. 

ChrisS's picture

Can't possibly DBT enough combinations of wire, wire length, music systems, source material, rooms, and listeners to do this.

Joe8423's picture

If there are differences in wire that can be heard in a system, and those differences  increase with length, then it would be possible to figure out what that length is in a system.  Obviously, the length wouldn't be the same in all systems.  Comparisons between wires would need to be done in the same system.  If 1 wire was distinguishable from zip cord at 40 feet and the other wasn't distinguishable until 200 feet it would be a meaningful comparison. 

ChrisS's picture

Learn about Scientific Methodology.

Find out how testing is done in the real world.

Ask any high school science teacher.

Go to college.



Joe8423's picture

I'm sure in real science they change every variable on every trial when they're trying to uncover subtle differences.  I just don't have the time or inclination.

I think I'll start my own cable company.  I'm gonna name my cables after famous deaf people.  I'll have the Helen Keller, old Beethoven, Lou Ferrigno and the Johnnie Ray. 

ChrisS's picture

In real testing, all variables are controlled. That's why it can't be done in your basement.

Joe8423's picture

What about my living room?

ChrisS's picture

Please take a course in research methodology- check out your local college or university.

Starting your own company will be educational. At least take electrical engineering.

Joe8423's picture

As much as I enjoy being talked down to by someone who offers nothing, I think you should just name one relevant variable I can't control. 

ChrisS's picture

I've named them all above. Find out for yourself, you know how to use a computer. Come back when you've learned about research methodolgy.

Joe8423's picture

Or which comment named just one? 

ChrisS's picture

Do all zip cords sound the same?

Beyond this, I can't help you.

Joe8423's picture

think it's a reasonably safe bet that they'll have the same basic properties.  I'll buy a whole spool and cut off different lengths.  I could specify Radio Shack 14 awg speaker wire, part number ?????.  Would that make you feel better?  Then, when I compare that to my 50k Ferrigno cable (comes in a green box) we'd have a standard comparison. 

I realize that if there were to be a dbt parameter there would have to be a bunch of rules for it to be valid.  There's no need to go into minute detail in the comments section of this article.  My basic point is that if cables make a difference, the difference is related to measurable parameters and those parameters change linearly with the length of the cable, then we ought to be able to prove it with a dbt. 

ChrisS's picture

You make a lot of assumptions. You have to test each assumption. Them's the rules.

Go back to Step 1. Learn basic theory.

Joe8423's picture

You just can't grasp that this is a place for conceptual arguments and generalizations.  I'm not gonna go into minute detail here about how a test would be conducted.  You're basically just changing the subject over and over.  It's bizarre but really common in this hobby. 

ChrisS's picture
Joe8423's picture

I'm gonna be clear and direct, see if you can understand this.  I don't disagree with the scientific method.  This is a general, conceptual conversation. 

ChrisS's picture


There seems to be a lot that happens in your mind that doesn't happen in the real world.

Perhaps, if you stop reading Stereophile you won't have to imagine what John and his staff may or may not be doing while reviewing audio components.

Scorpio69er's picture

I'm sure JA and the rest of the Stereophile gang feel validated by your keen insights and incisive commentary. Truly, you leave me speechless.


ChrisS's picture

My comments are made only for your benefit.... You're welcome.

Erkit's picture

Your "hobby" is not alright, if only because there are moral questions assosiated with spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on anything, certainly wires, and "to each his own" ain't no kind of answer. But maybe most important: I'm sure your passions enjoy themselves elsewhere. Go outside, toss a frisbee. Volunteer, learn an instrument, ask a beautiful woman good questions. Quit with the pettifogging and live!

JL77's picture

John, I read read your Heyser AES Lecture long ago. Bravo! Heyser is the TEDTalk of the audio industry. I'm certain that everyone on this forum would benefit from reading it.

John Atkinson's picture

I read your Heyser AES Lecture long ago. Bravo!

Thank you. It was indeed an honor to be invited to give this lecture.

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

simplecl's picture

I don't think there's much point in arguing.  Many of the ideas presented above are more in alignment with "religion of audio" than "science of audio".  The "followers" will never be convinced otherwise so let them be.  We can be entertained by the beliefs without being critical, and without believing the same things.  Some enjoy their belief system and there's no reason to change their minds.  Simply enjoy music you like through equipment that meets your various personal needs and budget.  The article below is a good example of the "religion" mentality that makes people so emotional.  I don't see any reason to tell them there's no Santa coming down the chimney.

Ariel Bitran's picture

what you mean by "religion" of audio?

MVBC's picture

How about worship of the Lamm...wink

Ariel Bitran's picture


ChrisS's picture

simplecl's picture

     It’s difficult to explain what I mean by “religion” because the word has so many personal interpretations.  Instead of an explanation, I’ll offer this short story as an example.
     I belong to an audio club and last year we were considering the purchase of a new CD player.  The members were given an opportunity to A/B test the new player so we could compare it to the old one.  Two CDs were queued and began playing simultaneously.  We listened while the source was switched from A to B via the preamp.  The music would play for about 20-30 seconds on each unit, and then the A/B switch would occur.
     At the end of the test, there was little debate that the new unit sounded better.  Terms such as “more air”, “better dynamics”, and “tighter bass” filled the room and almost everyone agreed.  A few of us were puzzled.
    After about 10 minutes of discussion, someone noticed that the preamp used for the A/B test was not connected into the playback circuit.  The entire test was conducted while listening to A.  We had a good laugh, and a few eyes rolled.
The system was corrected, the A/B test reran, and everyone could hear the difference during round two.  The new player did sound better than the much older player.
     Of course, the differences heard during round one can easily be explained.  Members believed the newer, more expensive player would sound better.  They were strongly influenced by their belief that it should.  They were also influenced by the belief of other members.  Hopefully readers understand the connection I’m trying to make between words such as “belief” and “religion”.  Admittedly, I may be using the terms loosely and don’t mean to offend anyone.

ChrisS's picture

A good, fun lesson!

Joe8423's picture

themselves but they don't.  I like being right so the thought that I might be imagining things and making a bunch of false claims based on my imaginings upsets me.  An awful lot of folks just don't mind being wrong.  It's creepy.

Ariel Bitran's picture

on what you meant by "religion" in hi-fi

in a way, it sticks it to both of the quarreling camp

i think blind faith in either direction (subjective/objective) is a bad call

ChrisS's picture

And the lesson here is they heard what they believed, but they weren't creeped out about it!

wrytoast's picture

I subscribe to the same philosophy when it comes to wine and stereo equipment. There's no such thing as good and bad-- there's what you like, and what you don't like. If you're lucky enough to like Yellow Tail or mp3s, you're very lucky, because they're both inexpensive and you can get them everywhere. 

Most people, when tested blind, can't even tell red wine from white wine. For those people to spend a ton of money on a bottle is ok-- because it's their money. If it gives them pleasure to consume something simply because it's expensive, well, then, good for them. 

Perhaps sadly, I am not one of those people.

ChrisS's picture

The fun is when those people taste a really nice Bordeaux or hear a well set-up vinyl system....and they don't have to be stratospherically expensive!

Joe8423's picture

if someone took some yellowtail, added some cheap ingredients to make it taste like expensive wine and then sold it to you for $50/bottle?  This is what bothers me.  In a world where there are so many people who don't mind being scammed there are going to be a lot of scammers.  If I'm going to spend a lot of money on something there had better be a reason for it other than that the seller likes money. 

I've never spent significant money on cables.  My speaker cables are only 3 feet long and I paid about $150 I think.  They're audioquest of some kind.  My interconnects are the real heresy, I bought some balanced microphone cables at Guitar Center.  They were among the more expensive ones, about $100 but not a lot by any stretch.  My system isn't cheap, list price is almost 30k and none of it is very old.  I fooled around with cables a little and the differences ranged from tiny to inaudible.  I've also got a ton of bass traps in a dedicated room.  Room treatments make a huge difference.  Speakers make a huge difference.  Amps make a significant difference but not near as big as speakers.  The source and preamp make a difference but in my experience not a huge one.  I haven't played a whole lot there so I may change my mind when I upgrade those.  Wires are just so far down the line of things that matter it's hard for me to understand why they're talked about so much. 

ChrisS's picture

Caveat emptor! Trust your gut... If you feel like you're being scammed, whether it's a used car, the latest health product or a stereo component that fell off a truck,  then back away as fast as possible.

If those cables don't make a signiifcant difference, don't buy. That doesn't mean other interconnects won't make a difference.

Even though I was told that Linn amps and other Linn components don't respond to changes in wiring, I found the mid-priced WireWorld Aurora power cords to make the biggest difference in the way my system played music, not the entry-level Stratus nor the higher-priced Electra.

If you already have good interconnects, fair enough. However, if you're able to try out different cables, whether by borrowing them or you're able to return them with a full refund, then see if there's anything within your means that makes a difference that you like. Trust your ears.

That's what the folks at Stereophile and other good audiophiles like them try to teach us.


P.S. You say your room has a ton of treatment- it's quite possible that you won't hear any or very little difference with changes in any kind of wiring because of the traps.

Joe8423's picture

why would room treatments make it hard to hear differences between wires?

ChrisS's picture

Probably absorbing the frequencies of the sounds that change the most when swapping wires.

If your traps are not permanently attached, take them out, then do your wire comparison.

Joe8423's picture

The more absorption you have the less you hear the room.  That makes it easier to hear differences in the sound coming directly from the speakers.  If I were only absorbing high frequencies and the lows were overpowering it could make sense but I don't have that situation.  I have a real time analyzer and measurement mic that I used to measure the response down here and I don't have a rising bass problem. 

bob.saccamanno's picture

This article typifies the problems with the "high-end" and why we are turning away so many folk. I've been in the industry for over 30 years, and I have never heard any well designed cable sound any different from one another.

Sorry, but this articale took the cake. I can perfectly understand why the vast majority are repulsed by the high-end, and why our industry is self imploding.

Wake up people.

teegood64's picture

When I first got my DAC/CD Player I only had a very rudimentary red/white twin RCA cable that was quite thin and was probably nickel plated. When I switched it out for a $20 gold plated Rocketfish / Best Buy cable a couple days later, I could hear a fair bit of difference in the quality of the music. 

My wife, who likes to listen to music too, never knew I made the cable change and as I was sitting next to her ruminating adjectives till I came up with, "lush". Yes, more, "lush sounding", I glanced at her and she said, "Could you turn it down!!?".

Listening is a complex human issue. TRUE OR FALSE??


Doctor Fine's picture

 A few years back I took my 40 years of recording room/high end sales experience over to the local Fort Lauderdale Folk Music Club.  They had a PA system which consisted of an ancient Peavey powered mixer and two Yamaha woofers in ported boxes. 

You couldn't heard a thing except "XmPtFFFSHtfMMMAMMM."  What do you EXPECT two WOOFERS would do to vocals and guitars???

So I volunteered to straighten the mess out and installed JBLs I had laying around, cleaned up the wiring and replaced the reberb in the old mixer with a better Lexicon unit.  Voila!  Clear sound that was sweet and musical!

A traveling headliner from New York City was the star of the show the first night I ran the new board.  He stopped in the middle of his performance. 

"Whoever fixed this room's sound system is a genius and it is MUCH appreciated," he commented.  "Last time I was here it was like singing through dirty socks--THIS sounds magical!!!"

The next week the Club fired me and made me replace all the old original setup with the two woofers and the distorted reverb.

"We AMATEURS suddenly sound like crap through your new setup," they complained.  "Before we could show up wearing hippie clothes and perform a set and everybody would clap like crazy.  Now we sound terrible and nobody claps anymore."

I left while mumbling to myself "MAYBE the reason you sound like crap is that you sound like crap!."

True story.

The moral of this is to not take too seriously ANYTHING which the so-called die hard amateurs think about our discipline.  Perhaps they LIKE sound that sounds like crap!