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Lamont Sanford
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Moving your head around

We all do it while listening to music. Do you suppose moving your head around is sort of defeating the purpose of hearing the perfect sound? Why build the perfect system if moving your head around is jacking things up. Keep your head still. You're a receiver not some emotional wreck in a trance. I exclude this listening to any live recordings of "The Who". A well disciplined audiophile should keep his head still.

bertdw
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Re: Moving your head around

I think moving your head actually helps you hear better. Did you ever hear a sound and not be able to localize it until you moved your head back and forth a little? This would be applicable to the soundstage and imaging of your hi-fi.

KBK
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Re: Moving your head around

"A well disciplined audiophile should keep his head still."

Well, I do feel that much white boy jazz and blues is like a visit to the dentist's office, So I can see that one.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around

If you know what you're doing.

bertdw
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Re: Moving your head around

I know a few people who have no idea what their heads are doing.

Buddha
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
I think moving your head actually helps you hear better. Did you ever hear a sound and not be able to localize it until you moved your head back and forth a little? This would be applicable to the soundstage and imaging of your hi-fi.

Cool post, man!

I see you are using one of my childhood family snapshots as your theme pic!

For an even more amazing experience, Lamont, try listening with your hands behind your head. Increases treble noticeably!

j_j
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
We all do it while listening to music. Do you suppose moving your head around is sort of defeating the purpose of hearing the perfect sound? Why build the perfect system if moving your head around is jacking things up. Keep your head still. You're a receiver not some emotional wreck in a trance. I exclude this listening to any live recordings of "The Who". A well disciplined audiophile should keep his head still.

Not at all. If you watch concertgoers in a real, live concert, you'll see heads move all the time.

In fact, part of what you're doing is learning the soundfield around you, and finding the points that various things sound the best at.

This is one of the reasons 2 speakers are not enough, in fact, because not only do you have 2 ears that are directional, thereby defeating the idea of 2 speakers already, but you also have two ears attached to a head that moves around, and that you've learned to move around in a soundfield in order to hear what you want to hear.

This makes things rather more complex.

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

Ears are not equal. My right ear is more sensitive than my left. Martin Colloms and an other reviewer from the late Fi magazine are deaf from one ear. We move our heads accordingly.

To make an analogy it is well documented that Scots don't use uderwear. Their balls move freely and keep them balanced as they make a left or right turn.

Freako
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Re: Moving your head around

When animals listen carefully they tilt their head a bit to one side. We can do the same

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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
When animals listen carefully they tilt their head a bit to one side.

Some can even move their ears independently, like llamas and alpacas.

While the sound does change a bit when moving one's head, I would hate having a system so finicky that my head had to be locked in a vise to listen.

No slouching, no sitting up straight, no tilting your head to read a cue sheet . . . bleh.

KBK
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Re: Moving your head around

New Data On Hearing Mechanism:

Built-in amps: How subtle head motions, quiet sounds are reported to the brain
February 9, 2010

Subtle head motions are amplified by inner-ear hair cells before the signal is reported to the brain, report Marine Biological Laboratory scientists and colleagues. In both the auditory and the vestibular systems, hair cell response is nonlinear: the lower the strength of the stimulus, the more the hair cell amplifies the signal.

http://www.physorg.com/news184935465.html

EPIC WIN! For audiophiles who always new they were right,and the naysayers needed to get a brain.

In the rules of science, specifically with respect to the 'creation' of science, FIRST comes observation.

Well, audiophiles have observed for years that subtle sounds can be easily heard by the human ear. And engineers who look at equipment measurement systems always argue that such signals are very small components and can't possibly be heard. Yet the Audiophiles observe that they do indeed hear these subtle signals. And easily, to add.

So the audiophile proffers the data that these small signals are heard. The engineer argues that the 'cannot be heard' as his measurement criteria indicates that for the measurement methodology to be correct, then the audiophile must be full of it or confusing themselves, somehow.

Well, guess who's on the wrong end of the big stick of science today. It's the engineer who refused to believe that the audiophile cannot hear subtle signals.

And the big stick of science is going to whack the engineer across the knuckles and remind them of the first rule of science, and this is that science first begins with the human action of observation, actual human observation.

And the audiophiles were right - and are right. We hear these subtle signals, all day, every day. Just like we always have.

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

New Descartes quote from Discourse on Method:

I am hairy so I am an audiophile

RGibran
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Re: Moving your head around

TOADFISH SEX HUMS STIRS BOFFINS

May Belt
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Re: Moving your head around

To quote from the article you gave the link to :-

>>> "The lower the strength of the stimulus, the more the hair cells "tune themselves up to amplify the stimulus," Highstein says.

The toadfish was used for this study. "What's interesting is the boney fishes evolved some 3 to 4 million years ago; subsequently this feature of its hair cells was apparently co-opted by the mammalian cochlea. Evolution conserved this feature, and the mammal later used it to improve hearing sensitivity," Highstein says." <<<

KBK, in 1986 (24 years ago !!) I wrote a paper in which I described some of our earliest experiments and also described the 'thinking at that time' regarding the hearing mechanism. I have copied below the section from my paper relating to the hearing mechanism. At that time it was thought that the hearing mechanism was a 'one way system' - that information went 'one way' only - from the hearing mechanism, along the auditory nerve, to the working memory. Just around that time (1986) that thinking was beginning to change. The new thinking was that there was actually a 'two way system' - that when the sound was not loud enough for the working memory to correctly identify it, a message was sent back down the auditory nerve from the brain to the outer hair cells instructing them to become erect, to 'tune in' to get more information. Alternatively, when the sound was too loud, a message was sent back down the auditory nerve to the outer hair cells instructing them to 'lay flat, to 'detune'. This new thinking was beginning to explain the hearing loss some people who had worked in loud working situations were experiencing. It was beginning to be realised that, with those people, their outer hair cells had been instructed to 'lay flat' to 'detune' so many times in their working life that those hair cells were now practically permanently in that position !!!! Hence the deficiency in their hearing !!

Since then the 'thinking' has changed yet again - or rather has expanded. The thinking is now along the lines that along the auditory nerve there are some form of relay stations, communicating backwards and forwards with each other and that this might be some explanation for some forms of Tinnitus. That these 'relay stations' could probably be continuing to communicate backwards and forwards with each other LONG after any external stimulus has ceased !!!!! Hence the description some people give of "noises or ringing in the ears" even when in a quiet environment.

Copy of the extract from my article :-

"Challenging the Conventional" 1986 Paper - May Belt (from our Home Page)

>>> "Let me give you some very brief background. It is known that sound air waves travel through the ear mechanism as vibrations until they reach rows of hairs in the inner ear known as the inner and outer hairs. It is known that the inner hairs respond to the vibrations and in so responding, create an electrical (ionic) signal which travels along the auditory nerve to the brain, so telling the brain that a sound has occurred. It had been presumed that the outer hairs had a similar function.

In the broadcast, Ian Russell of Sussex University reported how, in the course of his research, he had discovered that the outer hairs respond to an outside electrical field. That the hearing mechanism is a two way system. That information is fed from the ears to the brain but also that electro-ionic signals are sent from the brain to the ears.

Because of his latest findings, Ian Russell is now beginning to believe that the outer hairs act differently to the inner hairs. That the outer hairs are under the direct influence of the brain by electrical (ionic) signal. That when the brain wants to hear a sound more distinctly, it sends a message to the outer hairs to become more rigid

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
When animals listen carefully they tilt their head a bit to one side. We can do the same

As a tool to kill or be killed. Hardly audiophile material. Are you capable of hearing like these animals? Of course not. Put a hyena in the room with you and see if you last long enough to turn on some Bach for his listening pleasure. The dingo ate your baby.

Look, I'm talking about rolling your head around, back and forth, and side to side, with the music like it is really going to make something sound better. Rather, it is a emotional reaction to the music that defeats the sound at some level. Because its based on emotion you can't say you're actually doing it correctly. All I'm getting is that some jackass can move his ears behind his head.

Music is for enjoyment. Moving your head around is part of the orgasm. No pun intended.

j_j
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

Quote:
When animals listen carefully they tilt their head a bit to one side. We can do the same

As a tool to kill or be killed. Hardly audiophile material. Are you capable of hearing like these animals?

Well, actually, pretty much, yes, if you bother to look into it. We extract different cues from the soundfield, but in fact while we're less sensitive and have less high-frequency hearing, we can extract a lot more low-frequency detail.

Maybe you ought to study how we hear before you enter into such ranting...

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around

I don't need to study how we hear to know a line of crap when I hear one. Low frequency crap. And stop quoting me out of context. I didn't exactly write a dissertation in my post. Thanks.

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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
I don't need to study how we hear to know a line of crap when I hear one. Low frequency crap. And stop quoting me out of context. I didn't exactly write a dissertation in my post. Thanks.

Oh, so making completely off-the-wall statements is ok as long as it's not a "dissertation", you mean?

(bleep)

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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
When animals listen carefully they tilt their head a bit to one side. We can do the same

As a tool to kill or be killed. Hardly audiophile material. Are you capable of hearing like these animals?

Well, actually, pretty much, yes, if you bother to look into it. We extract different cues from the soundfield, but in fact while we're less sensitive and have less high-frequency hearing, we can extract a lot more low-frequency detail.

Maybe you ought to study how we hear before you enter into such ranting...

Hey great J_J!!!

To tilt your head slightly to the side is an great way to determine distances and detais. Look at footage of an owl when it sits on a branch and listen for a mouse scouting around on the ground. It does exactly that, and by doing just that it's able to pinpoint where the mouse is.

Freako
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Re: Moving your head around

Lamont wrote: Look, I'm talking about rolling your head around, back and forth, and side to side, with the music like it is really going to make something sound better. Rather, it is a emotional reaction to the music that defeats the sound at some level. Because its based on emotion you can't say you're actually doing it correctly. All I'm getting is that some jackass can move his ears behind his head. Music is for enjoyment. Moving your head around is part of the orgasm. No pun intended.

Well, I get my fun from not moving my head, in case you're interested. When I listen to good music I don't have any hyena's or other wild animals in the living room. Did you picture that in your head? Maybe you should do less rolling around with it...

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Re: Moving your head around

Or a better approach is to study experienced blind people instead of animals.
Do they tilt their head when walking out in public areas that requires good understanding of all sounds in the environment and their potential location?
Or even tilt their head in general when listening carefully.

Any answer I would give is an assumption as I have never seen such a study, but those that I have helped and seen in public places do not tilt their head.

Cheers
Orb

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

Why bringing blind people?

People with impaired hearing in one ear do tilt their head and put their hand to their ear to help

Orb
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Re: Moving your head around

LOL why didnt you question the posts regarding animals that are nothing to do with human hearing?

Maybe I missed it but I thought we are talking about hearing that is NOT impaired.
We can stick to toads and animals while discussing human behaviour to hearing instead if you want

More seriously though, if talking about human behaviour and associated spatial hearing I would think that if interested in head turning, then those who are not biased by sight and rely fully on picking where sounds come from in an environment would be quite relevant or as relevant as trying to compare human behaviour to owls/toads/etc as mentioned earlier.

Thanks
Orb

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around

Thank you, orb. My point exactly. I honestly believe some of the animals and reptiles on this board need to realize that there are some human audiophiles.

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Re: Moving your head around

I honestly believe some of the animals and reptiles on this board need to realize that there are some human audiophiles.

I merely pointed out that some animals tilt their head in order to improve their hearing ability in some situations. I automatically assumed that you'd be open-minded enough to at least try it out for yourself, so you could experience it too. When you compare me and others to the animals in question by implying that YOU are a human, you simply exhibit your low-life ancestry, as what it is. No further comments.

Don't approach a goat from the front, a horse from the back, or a fool from any side.
Yiddish proverb

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

This thread belongs to the Open Bar section you belong too and you escaped from

Please go back to your cage and groom your hair

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around

I brought up a topic that I knew you nerds in the Rants forum wouldn't get. Not my fault. I was making fun of the company language in the OP. I was going to wait until it got about 30 pages long but I caught the wrong fish. They got banned.

ncdrawl
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
I honestly believe some of the animals and reptiles on this board need to realize that there are some human audiophiles.

I merely pointed out that some animals tilt their head in order to improve their hearing ability in some situations. I automatically assumed that you'd be open-minded enough to at least try it out for yourself, so you could experience it too. When you compare me and others to the animals in question by implying that YOU are a human, you simply exhibit your low-life ancestry, as what it is. No further comments.

Don't approach a goat from the front, a horse from the back, or a fool from any side.
Yiddish proverb

Keld.

Memo.

Look up the terms

"taking the piss"

"screwing with you"

"talking trash"

etc.

don't take everything so literally.

Just say "Hey, Lamont, piss off, you inbred backwoods dumbass"

he likes the abuse. Trust me. he is big into S&M too.

Freako
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Re: Moving your head around

Lol, OK!

"Hey, Lamont, piss off, you inbred backwoods dumbass"

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around

That's more like it.

ncdrawl
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Re: Moving your head around

see? Here in America, taking the piss/trash talking is common..it means that they like you, a way of socializing(specific to males) .

Freako
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
see? Here in America, taking the piss/trash talking is common..it means that they like you, a way of socializing(specific to males) .

It would get you all banned in any European forum before you knew it, and I am totally not used to such verbal "extremes". I sometimes feel like a kitten in a dogyard when you guys get at it, lol

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

Education has a different meaning in america
They are left natural coming off their tree in the South, unfinished
Their mamas never teach them the proper manners
They talk to themseves unabashed, failing to communicate
Their solution was to segregate folks that make better music than them
Tocqueville made the same observations

KBK
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Re: Moving your head around

Each self created social and mental caste has it's externally visible frailties and issues.

I endeavor to try and recognize this and not find myself in any given anchored group, if that given group is not solidly planted on the floor of a humane and balanced system of open communication.

Many will disagree with that assessment of myself, and find a way to site that I am of a specific type and nature, but that is part and parcel, to some extent, of their own desire to have groupings and separations. ie, a reflection of their egoic designs.

We all suffer from this to some degree or another on both sides of the given 'group' or label. 'Me' and 'You' and then the more overt externalization of 'Us' and 'them'.

rvance
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
Lol, OK!

"Hey, Lamont, piss off, you inbred backwoods dumbass"

The Klingon Mullet. You don't see that every day. Well, maybe at Walmart.

Elk
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
[It would get you all banned in any European forum before you knew it, and I am totally not used to such verbal "extremes". I sometimes feel like a kitten in a dogyard when you guys get at it, lol

As do I.

At least we can climb trees and they cannot.

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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
At least we can climb trees and they cannot.

You have another advantage. While it is reasonably well known that dogs can hear up to about 45kHz, an octave higher than humans, cats can actually hear even higher, up to about 64kHz.

Ironically, both move their ears (which can rotate independent of the head and of each other) and not their heads in order to pinpoint sound sources.

Freako
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Re: Moving your head around

Relieved...

KBK
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Re: Moving your head around

height can bring advantage.

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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
. . . cats can actually hear even higher, up to about 64kHz.

I was unaware of this. Cool.

(I always liked the sniper cat, but what is the blue star? What secret organization does he belong to?)

KBK
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Re: Moving your head around

I've no idea, myself.

I'm good at categorically stating shit flat out, like it's some sort of fact, not so good with the wild speculation.

(Just pretend it's one of Buddha's posts)

A five sided star and right-side up is a representation of Venus, the morning star, or Ishtar, this is a secondary consideration of the feminine in Judaic religion (Shepardic original -Torah, not specifically Talmudic, which is Khazarian).

The reason it is tied to Venus, is that in astronomical terms, when Venus does a track through the skies where it does the retrograde motion and then moves forward, two full circular motions/rotations of the planet on an astrological chart, ie 720 degrees of rotation.. this gives 5 retrograde periods, and the track they describe is within one degree of accuracy and shows the five pointed star with the anchor points at the retrograde motion points --to near utter perfection. Yes..to within one degree of perfection, IIRC.

Fancy that.

The Judaic tribes were some of the earlier known competent astrologers and astronomers and this played a huge part in the religion as the 'morning star',and you see this played out at Rossyln Chapel in Scotland, etc. This plays out in along tunnel or aiming tube in the chapel that comes into alignment with Venus before the dawn, and is used in ceremonies, as the light of the sun shining off of Venus is to be used for blessing or altering the person who is involved in the ceremony. And this plays into Alchemy, where moonlight from the full moon is used to 'charge' the white powder of gold or 'philosopher's stone', to a stronger or higher level.

And so on.

http://www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/

Of course, if you look at the site included, you will note that the tiny symbol for their website describes the 6 pointed star, which indicates the blend of the masculine and the feminine, ie, the open v (female-tip on ground, V, open to skies, 'do me' legs open, love, Venus..) and the male (the V pointed Up, ^, -erect penis, mars, fist and/or penis slamming into the ground, war, virility, etc), which becomes the 6 sided star on the Flag of Israel. This is very ancient stuff. The two come together and create man. The Monkey in the middle -earth. With man on it. The monkey. The completed circle, which can represent the sun or the earth, depending on it's use and placement, seed, egg, etc.

The blue star in the photo...it is more likely a simple blue toy/trick to get the kitty to play in the window area, if the whole thing was done with a bent toward photoshopping in the first place. Which I doubt.

It is just a simple photoshopped picture of a kitty playing in the window.

But then again, the cat is tied to Egyptian mythology and religion which is pre-Judaic....which most definitely involves, Ishtar-Venus-Diana..all ....same-same. It is considered that much of the Judaic religion is pulled out of earlier Egyptian works. Which is based on Sumer and Babylon, which tells the Christ tale to utter perfection and completeness in all ways, involving Queen Sumarasis (SP is off). Except 3500 years earlier. and this is where the statues of the reptilian gods come from,and the tales of UFO's and the creation of man in laboratories is stated in flat out fact and perfect detail with no religious overtones, just a factual record. The same tablets show all the planets and includes Pluto, etc.

So how did the blue star get there?

You see, the blue star represents Sirius, where the Reptilian gods came from.

Hhmmm..

Sniper Kitty is Intriguing.

You see, in Ancient Egyptian religion it was slightly different, the Cat. Not so soft, the original was the god of Mafdet..the deification, or god of... justice and execution. Now, what is going on with the cat here? It is extracting Justice..through Execution. This places it in ancient Sumer or near it, original or old Egypt. Thus the star representing the Alien reptilian creators of man. Of Sirian Origin.(The Star Sirius, the brightest star in the sky, blue it is-and CLOSE. Also one of the biggest in the Galaxy -Period. Second biggest, I think) So.. In hiding, still watching. Still playing with man. Extracting justice. The old god of renown, and anger. An eye for an eye. Still watching. Man....God's toy, his vassals, his slaves, their toys, their creations, we are. As the Sumerian tablets state.

More than anything, this shows that if you have enough data you can suss things out. But the same is a double edged sword, you can end up making something out of nothing, as the data is there to support it. Even if the data is solid, which it is, to my knowledge. Multiple hit and multiple fits. Watch out for it. Of course the illiterate who know nothing of the above will say it's all Ca-ca, when it sometimes is not. One simply has to be careful. Some leave esoteric sign where those who are aware, will note it. Like Secret handshakes and symbols and sayings/greetings and such.

The ancient societies (and religions) of note (both good and bad) still exist and leave sign everywhere, like dogs pissing on things. You just have to know what it is you are looking at.

It's just a kitty playing in the window.

But Sniper Kitty is still Intriguing. To think -that much- could even potentially be in such a simple photo.

ncdrawl
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

It would get you all banned in any European forum before you knew it,

the Brits love it... for me it is no big deal. I was an Army Infantry grunt with some time in the sandbox... heck, for the first few years, I thought my name was dumbass or numbnuts, wouldnt even answer to my name.. but if someone said "hey, sonofabitch or "hey, fuckstick" id come running.

now I know how to be a southern gentleman too, and never curse around females or in public..but if it is a bunch of guys shooting the breeze, (like while watching a UFC fight or drinking at a bar) or on a forum , theres no telling.

ncdrawl
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

I'm good at categorically stating shit flat out

Ken, "stating shit flat out" is not an attribute I would associate with you, bud. You say 5.2 million words per thought..

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

Moving your head around

Question

Can you reach your ass with your tongue?

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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:
Moving your head around

Question

Can you reach your ass with your tongue?

No, he'll probably have to use yours!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

Quote:
Moving your head around

Question

Can you reach your ass with your tongue?

No, he'll probably have to use yours!

I spit green chile all over the screen!

j_j
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

Quote:
At least we can climb trees and they cannot.

You have another advantage. While it is reasonably well known that dogs can hear up to about 45kHz, an octave higher than humans, cats can actually hear even higher, up to about 64kHz.

Ironically, both move their ears (which can rotate independent of the head and of each other) and not their heads in order to pinpoint sound sources.

Not so ironically this is also why they could not undertand human speach.

The cochlear filterbank structure of a human is a pretty good match to detecting human speech information (i.e. 3 formants, fricatives, etc).

A dog has much wider filters at low frequencies. This greatly increases their ability to hear directionally, which is further aided by mobile ears. Our ability to localize must seem like "deaf" to a dog.

A cat, even more so, and the higher frequency cutoff there allows them, via ear movement, to not only get direction, but also, when close, distance, via understanding (instinctively) the interection of two directions to the source.

This is how a cat a foot away from a mouse can pounce right on the mouse in complete darkness. It can hear the mouse breathing, and not only know direction, but also distance, to the mouse.

Buddha
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Re: Moving your head around


Quote:

This is how a cat a foot away from a mouse can pounce right on the mouse in complete darkness. It can hear the mouse breathing, and not only know direction, but also distance, to the mouse.

I can do that with poonany.

Gotta watch out for erring on the low side, though.

Elk
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Re: Moving your head around

I almost feel sorry for the mouse.

j_j
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Re: Moving your head around


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I almost feel sorry for the mouse.

Meow.

Grosse Fatigue
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Re: Moving your head around

Like all frenchmen I can only reach my nose with my tongue
giving us already an unfair advantage with the ladies

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