CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
More power, is always more alive
dcstep
dcstep's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 16 2007 - 4:59pm

I think that power is NOT "absolute". In my system I prefer 1000 watts per channel, with a high damping factor, but some speakers only demand a few good watts and then all else is wasted. I don't tend to like those speakers, BUT many people do.

Dave

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

Any quality speaker will benefit from plenty of reserve, used when needed, how can it be wasted? The speakers open up, when powered properly, by plenty of reserve. Limited power only restrict and defeats the purpose of quailty speakers. Ain't the goal realism in hi fi reproduction? Or have I been mis led, and I should only want some sound, be it artifical or "emotional" colored euphoric. The word high fidelity, I think means true to the original.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 4 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am

A half gallon of cheap tequila vs. a bottle of fine Burgundy.

One has much more power, but the other is more enjoyable to many.

Go figure.

I think watts and booze analogize well.

linden518
linden518's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Dec 12 2007 - 5:34am

A 14-line sonnet by Shakespeare or the 35,000-word manifesto by the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski?

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

No they don't relate. Why can't you also have a 1/2 gallon of GOOD vodka, why is quanity always related to cheap? Or no good? If you buy the same vodka by the shot in some over priced night club or bar at $5/shot and you buy a 750 mL bottle of teh same stuff at teh liquor store for much less, is it better cus' the small portions of good stuff. It takes more work using it by the shot and costs much more. Get high quality in a larger pkg., same quality but more of it is always better. Cus you then have RESERVE when needed, each shot is used up, way too soon. Watts and booze DO relate thanks, I stand corrected!!!! I'll drink to that...I'll take my 4800W of high quality in large pkgs, over shots of less watts that get used up way too soon.

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm

A guy I know is using a pair of the Wilson max 2's or similar (not sure of the exact model anymore, but it is current and near the top of the Wilson line-up) and Lamm tube monoblocks, at under 30W/pc. He's quite happy with that set-up.

It's always nice to have gobs of power in my 'onion', and tend to prefer that scenario. for example, I tend to run at well under 5 watts at any given time, but I'm running at the approx 600w/pc level into the current (meaning:speakers in use) 4 ohm load speakers.

I just do my best to make sure the amplifier is capable of delivering very clean and undistorted transient edges, as much as it possibly can, and this tends to take the 'hardness' off of a given high(ish) feedback amplifier's sonic presentation. One of the key points that is embodied in such thinking, is 'local capacitance-distributed' in the execution of the given amplifier.

I've gone as far as, in most cases of modification for personal use..to placing the power supply capacitor's legs directly on the legs of the given power transistor. On each given power transistor, in the given design.

For example, Steve McCormack takes this route, along with the 'harmonic order' distortion characteristics that a bridged amplifier design brings to the sonic table. This makes his amps tend to be known as sounding quite 'neutral-to soft' when it comes to comparing their 'sonic hardness' to the other bulk of purely SS designed amplifiers.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

Who reads Shakespearee or Ted K.? That's like listening to bad music and just long boring bad music. Bad analogy. Try again.

dbowker
dbowker's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 5 days ago
Joined: May 8 2007 - 6:37am


Quote:
Who reads Shakespearee or Ted K.? That's like listening to bad music and just long boring bad music. Bad analogy. Try again.

A 14-line review by John Atkinson or a 35,000-word manifesto by the DUP about watts?

dcstep
dcstep's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 16 2007 - 4:59pm


Quote:
Any quality speaker will benefit from plenty of reserve, used when needed, how can it be wasted? The speakers open up, when powered properly, by plenty of reserve. Limited power only restrict and defeats the purpose of quailty speakers. Ain't the goal realism in hi fi reproduction? Or have I been mis led, and I should only want some sound, be it artifical or "emotional" colored euphoric. The word high fidelity, I think means true to the original.

Do you not realize that speaker efficiency can vary very widely? 25 watts would be a luxurious power reserve for a speaker sensitive enough to rate 103dB but it would be woefully inadequate for a speaker rated at 83dB. The power demands are vastly different. Yes there is need for a reserve, but when 1 watt gives you 103dB then 25 watts is super plenty. 1000 watts would be rediculous with that speaker.

Dave

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

Well.now you is trying to confuse and confound me.....I gotta thinks this oen over for a spell. Whilst I try to drink in some 4800 WATTS playing Dave Hole guitar great!! HmmmDup or JA, Dup or JA? How many words again?

linden518
linden518's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Dec 12 2007 - 5:34am


Quote:
Who reads Shakespearee or Ted K.? That's like listening to bad music and just long boring bad music. Bad analogy. Try again.


LOL, obviously you keep missing the analogy between you and the unabomber. irrational ranter = irrational ranter, get it?

Who reads Shakespeare? I guarantee you a hell of a lot more people than trivial people who are overly obsessed w/ watts. Why don't you go check out how many copies of Shakespeare are being sold yearly?

mrlowry
mrlowry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 11 months ago
Joined: May 30 2006 - 1:37pm

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL more power is better, rarely are all things equal. So if DUP is Ted K does that make JA Shakespeare?

linden518
linden518's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Dec 12 2007 - 5:34am

mrlowry - you got one sweet blog going on over there. Keep it up. I'm not saying DUP is Ted K as a person, a homegrown terrorist... that's too harsh of an ad hominem; I'm implying that his ideas are just like the misguided lunacy that is Ted K's manifesto, both prone to blind absolutism.

Shakespeare's Shakespeare.

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm

Besides..Brother Bacon was an alchemist. How do you think he managed to create 7000 new words for the English language?

mrlowry
mrlowry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 11 months ago
Joined: May 30 2006 - 1:37pm

selfdivider-

Thank you for the compliment on my blog. Feel free to link to it, comment on it, and dig through the archives. Visit often. Red Sox fans are always welcome.

KBK-

I don't feel qualified to debate the authorship of Shakespeare's work. I'm sure that DUP will weigh in on the subject.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

My speakers are like 95dB/watt or something, and everytime I increased the amplifiers they opened up, not louder, better. You don't get it, try it, you'll see what it means. More defined bass lines, mids opened up, highs shimmered better and better, while deeeeep real bass was there. They went from a mere 300W or so pc to like 1200 per side...better, but still not the end, I am now at like 4800W system total, using 4 mono 1400+ or so amplifiers at their top..and the same speakers have opened up, to a completely new open, strainless effect. 25W is hardly any reserve on any speaker. Maybe a clock radio, or a BLOSE wave radio? 3% THD? Realism involves dynamics, and yes SLAM, no strain, no constraints. Listen to some 25W super audiophile tube 3% distortion maker, then hook up some horrible Crown or QSC non audiophile amplifier to teh same speakers with several hundred watts per side, you will hear the same speakers like you didn't think they could be? I'm not talking about some single driver,nonsense either, but something with quality. Heck 30 years ago, using Dynaco A-25's moving up the amplfier ladder the improvemetns where so audible by upping the power to them, it was like it wasn't the same speakers, yet it was. Unless your concpet of hi fidelity, or what is real, is listening to some mindless non dynamic background music. Then a clock radio will suffice.

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am

Why do you guys even bother responding to this oft-repeated drivel?

DUP's posts are like his amplifiers; large, bloated and low quality. You can judge each by the first watt or the first sentence, respectively.

Stop feeding the troll.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm

NEWS HAS JUST HIT OF AN AMAZING DISCOVERY! INCREASE THE SENSITIVITY OF YOUR SPEAKERS IN JUST TWO WEEKS!! CUT YOUR POWER REQUIREMENTS BY 70%!!! NO LONGER WILL YOU REQUIRE 4,800 WATTS TO GET A WHISPER!!!!!!!!!! 1,200 WILL "GET'ER DONE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is amazing stuff. You can will your speakers to be more efficient!

READ THE UNBELIEVABLE TRUE STORY FROM REAL USERS!!!!!!

On 03/23/08 09:54 AM, dup's speakers were a wimpy ...


Quote:
... my speakers are well over 90dB 1 watt ...

#37083 - http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=7&vc=1

That's OK, dup, we feel your pain!!!!!

BUT WITH OUR REMARKABLE DISCOVERY, THESE ARE THE RESULTS YOU CAN EXPECT ...

In just two short weeks of this newly discovered audiophile tweak ...


Quote:
My speakers are like 95dB/watt or something ...

Is that not remarkable? Just by making up a new number you can have speakers that no longer require a massive 4,800 watts just to get to a whisper. Try it! Tell me what you think. dup finally agrees it's all perception!!!!! And you were wondering just what an audiofool wouldn't believe!!!!!!!!

BUT THERE'S EVEN MORE!!!!!! Yes, folks, there's even more! If you're not familiar with the lowly +90dB thread, it's worth a read. In it dup misquotes Rod Elliot and absolutely ignores this paragraph;


Quote:
There is a realisation that 'power is cheap', and this is quite true. High power amplifiers are now very cheap compared to even a few years ago. Since power is so cheap, loudspeakers with efficiencies even below 90dB/W/m are common - all you need to do is use a more powerful amp and everything is back where it should be, right? Wrong!

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm#s2

dup, understanding his speakers were not as efficient as they are today, went on to confuse the very reason Elliot warns against dumping more power into a speaker - dynamic compression! A fact dup claims is merely Elliot's opinion (even after quoting him as a reliable source) but a fact none the less!

Well, for those dup fans with short term memory loss, I'll gladly summarize the whole thread to say it was a HOOT!!! dup misquotes, misunderstands and misspells and still insists he's still right and everyone else is still ... aw, you guessed it, A FOOL!!!!!!! And that we can't read!!!!!!!!!!!!

dup then resorts to personal insults thrown at me - bet you didn't see that comin'!!!!!!!! And eventually just blubbers that he's right. Unfortunately, dup is left without a leg to stand on and the thread ends uneventfully with dup muttering to himself. You dup fans will absolutely love it!!!!! Well, except for the end that is.

NOW WHAT'S EVEN MORE AMAZING!!! CAN YOU SEE IT COMING???? YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS ONE!!!!!!!!

NONE OF THE FIGURES DUP STATES FOR THE SENSITIVITY OF HIS SPEAKERS TURN OUT TO BE CORRECT!!!!!!!!

Take a look at this; http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/806legacy/index4.html

Have you ever seen anything like that?! The impedance swing actually appears to go backwards!!! Any wonder these are speakers that, in dup's words, " ... with each increase in available power, got better and better, not louder." Not louder indeed!!!! There's no way they could get louder no matter how many watts you dump into them. There's a dip to 2.75 Ohms in impedance and the phase swings from 90 degrees out of phase in one direction to 87 degrees in the other. That, folks, is work not being done by virtue of voltage and amperage being out of phase!!!!! If those two numbers don't stay closely tied, nothing gets done and nothing gets louder!!!!!! " ... with each increase in available power, got better and better, not louder." Ya gotta hand it to him, dup's got this one right.

dupper, I don't know how you managed the increase in sensitivity so quickly, but I'm sure you now really impress the chicks and the guys on the golf course!!! But looking at that impedance curve, phase angle and a frequency response that looks, if not like Everest, more akin to the Rocky Mountain chain I can't believe you don't still need MORE WATTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck, dup, you poor misguided sot.

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am

The Whispers are quite sensitive at 92dB. This is quite a bit higher than average. They do however need serious current to drive due to the impedance dips and phase angle issues.

They are not candidates for low powered amps. However they do not need the equivalent to a personal nuclear power plant to drive as DUP contends. But he is happy and he has put together a great system for his use. This is all that matters. At least to him.

Regardless, the Whispers are excellent sounding speakers - as are the other Legacy speakers I have heard. Funny looking, huge - but great sound.

RGibran
RGibran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 months ago
Joined: Oct 11 2005 - 5:50pm


Quote:
Good luck, dup, you poor misguided sot.

C'mon Stephen. Help us out here. Isn't this enough already with Jan's insults to numerous folks on this forum.

After all, we don't go around calling Jan a poor misguided transgender!

RG

tomjtx
tomjtx's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 12 2006 - 2:53pm

JV certainly doesn't seem like a very happy person.
Perhaps that is why he is so inexcusably rude.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

Actually the stuff is very high quality, slew rates lke 800V/uS .01% THD mostly lower, superior reliabilty, unflappable into any load...pleanty of power reserve for dynamics and realism,you know all that non audiophile stuff. It just works, works great, sound great, and just keeps on going. Are you saying I need 3% THD unstable tubes, or some "audiophile" ckts that go up in smoke, or over heat or maybe just stop working? I like superb sound, with superb reliabilty, and just keeps going and going, and priced for mortals, not the King of Uranus. What determined what is low quality and some other highly distorted unit high quality? Special ears?

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

What Da' F' is a SOT Anyway? Can it be patented and sold as an audiophile Tweak or upgrade? Would I need more than one SOT to get an improvement? Or a single SOT is best, none of that complicated crossover issues that cause problems in Jan's world. Are SOT's efficient, use less power, please explain SOT. I'm stumped, Jan got me on this one. Cool. And I said the Whispers are like 92 90 95 I didn't recall and didn't feel like looking, so excuuuuuuuse, but they are much more efficient than the normal 86dB types that are so prevelant out there. Excuuuuuuuse me, for being a SOT!!! please explain

tomjtx
tomjtx's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 12 2006 - 2:53pm

DUP, I would consider a SOT someone who enjoys a good single malt

So take it as a compliment. Actually, a good strategy might be to take all JV's insults as compliments

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm

SOT = Aqualung

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am

DUP, please re-read my post. I said nothing insulting with respect to your amps. In fact, I nicely defended your speakers. <sigh>

My only disagreement is with your contention that thousands of watts are necessary to obtain musical satisfaction - thus the reference to "nuclear power plants" of amplification. But I said nothing against SS, your choice of amplification nor anything else negative.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

My response was mostly to Jan V. Mr. Happy.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am

I know, I read your post about the stuff, I was speaking most to Jan. Mr. Happy

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am

Got it. Thanks!

rvance
rvance's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 6 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2007 - 9:58am


Quote:
I like superb sound, with superb reliabilty, and just keeps going and going, and priced for mortals, not the King of Uranus.

Ironic, since you are undoubtedly the King of Uranus. But are you the Master of Your Domain?

Log in or register to post comments
-->
  • X