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ChrisS
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testing vs validation

Yet, you want to dismiss thousands of years of emperical documentation of experiential research of the practice of acupuncture with a few lousy studies (non-asian) and a explanation of expectation bias!

What does a well constructed DBT or SBT actually tell you, ILikeMusic?

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proof

You're such any easy dis-believer, ILikeMusic! What constitutes proof for you?

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Carefully controlled blind tests

Ilikemusic, shouldn't you be going after dowsers and spoonbenders and other paranormal activity?  No magazine in this hobby performs carefully controlled blind tests of the type you propose.  Don't you know that?  Even if they did, it would be just plain silly since everyone knows that negative results of such tests are meaningless.  Don't you know that?  The Amazing Randi, the famous witchhunter, has made a career of devising carefully controlled blind tests with many trials that are so carefully controlled that no one can possibly pass them.  Isn't that really the type of test you have in mind?

Geoff Kait

machina dynamica

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Mechanism of operation

Ilikemusic wrote,

"Of course there is no onus on the individual making the claim.  Anyone may make as many preposterous claims as they wish without providing proof. Now if they want skeptical individuals to believe in one of their claims the onus falls on the individual making the claim to provide proof.

And again I am interested in the claims regarding the mechanism of operation of the tweaks, not claims of individuals about what they thought they heard."

The manufacturer is under no obligation whatsoever to provide proof of his claims - including mechanism of operation.  Hell, the manufacturer is not even under any obligation to provide an explanation of the mechanism of operation in the first place. Don't you know that? Even in patent law proof of mechanism of operation is not required. Besides, why would manufacturers care about satisfying the demands of a few skeptics or overly suspicious people out there?  

 

 

Geoff Kait

machina dynamica

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Is it Ella or is it Memorex?

Providing proof would also put a lot of lawyers, marketing agencies, and other purveyors of flummery out of work!

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Sorry I'm late, I was down at the bloodletter's...
ChrisS wrote:

Yet, you want to dismiss thousands of years of emperical documentation of experiential research of the practice of acupuncture with a few lousy studies (non-asian) and a explanation of expectation bias!

What does a well constructed DBT or SBT actually tell you, ILikeMusic?

 

1,000 years of bloodletting as the dominant paradigm, it must be effective.

This afternoon it's off to the phrenologist, then over to the 6,000th anniversay of the Flat earth Society....because, you know, a long tradition proves something works.

 

angle

 

(By the way, I have nothing against accupuncture - if someone says they like it, fine. Just so long as they don't insist that everyone needs the same 'treatment' that they do to feel good. Thanks for helping prove my point!)

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Try to catch up...
ChrisS wrote:

Wow, 174 (+1) posts on this thread!! I guess I find it perversely entertaining to see people arguing about products that they've never tried and have no intention of ever trying and yet have so much to say without any first hand experience!

Is that what Law is about?

 

I've tried them, and tried to host demos of their efficacy - to no benefit ever being noted by anybody.

Next, check the number of replies to any threads about Art's typical columns.

The real winner here is Art!

(Although I consider the two columns to be stunt Hi Fi writing, not related to the actual hobby.)

Plus, Art will get even more column inches out of this in the future when he pulls his "I hate naysayers and drop stumps on them" column.

Art is in win/win country when he writes about this stuff! he gets more replies on this one topic than he normally gets in three years of the usual stuff.

Like I said, make it part of the May edition each year, since it arrives in April.

cool

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Celebrex! Slowly, I turned....
ChrisS wrote:

Now try the same experiment with Celebrex-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celecoxib

 

"Again Sam spends a couple of pages on magic/quackery, and again the price is offensive...I do not mind being a sucker now and again but the scale as evidenced by the price of the magic gong is scary."

I wouldn't use Celebrex as an example. It actually does something.

Hey, I know! Ask May, the FDA, or OSHA for the ingredients list of her imported creme. You'll blithely scmhear your finger in it, but you Google Tylenol side effects?

That's consistent.

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Does what?

Celebrex actually does something? How many people have died using Belt products compared to those who have used Celebrex?

Anton, do you actually know the controversy around Celebrex? Did you buy into the Celebrex "flummery"?

Please read...

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?

Anton, did you say something?

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Heh!

Anton, I get it! You're making fun... Bazinga!

Anton
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Bazinga!

Oops, double post.

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Bazinga!

Of course I am making fun. This topic is solely about either the people who make fun of the hobby by trying to scam money from it, or of others making fun of the scammers.

The whole subject is making fun of something....for either side.

On the Celebrex thing - the joke was: "It actually does do something....and that thing is bad."

There are people, however, who still use Celebrex because they make an informed decision regarding risk and potential benefit. For some, it's the only thing that works for their problem - would you refuse to let them make that choice?

By the way. Beyond fish....Did you ever try to get your kid to eat cow shit or maggots?

Why not? He might like it!

laugh

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??

Did you say something?

Anton
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Not in your world.
ChrisS wrote:

Did you say something?

Do you eat Balut?

 

 

 

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Fun?

You have an interesting idea of fun...

 

http://www.cracked.com/article_14979_the-6-most-terrifying-foods-in-world.html

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Reality?

Quote:

 

"I have in mind, at a minimum, a double blind A/B experiment where A=no cream, B=cream over 1-2 dozen trials for each of 4-5 dozen participants, the experiment repeated by 2-3 independent individuals/organizations and in which the results and test procedures are published in respected scientific forums and are available for peer review. And yes, I highly doubt that the participants as a whole will do better than random guessing.  Sounds like you do too.  I also realize that this will likely never happen.  So be it.

The amount of money, knowledge and fame involved in a 'positive' outcome of such a series of tests is quite staggering. It is meaningful that nobody cares to investigate it seriously."

ILikeMusic, in "real life", when does this actually happen?

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Then...

Quote:

"I also realize that this will likely never happen."

 

Then why ask?

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Big Money

Quote:

 

"The amount of money, knowledge and fame involved in a 'positive' outcome of such a series of tests is quite staggering. It is meaningful that nobody cares to investigate it seriously."

 

Do you think Pfizer tests this way (ie. Celebrex)?

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I hear Thomas Keller uses "electret" creme....
ChrisS wrote:

Quote:

 

"The amount of money, knowledge and fame involved in a 'positive' outcome of such a series of tests is quite staggering. It is meaningful that nobody cares to investigate it seriously."

 

Do you think Pfizer tests this way (ie. Celebrex)?

 

Thomas Keller is a known Beltist.

It's not that his food is so good, it's that by schmearing a little "electret" creme under each table, it allows diners to turn off their tension mechanism and just taste the food better.

If you schmear some "electret" creme on your wine glass, it will not change the flavor of the wine, it will just beter enable you to fully taste the wine's flavor.

Same goes for books. Pick one you didn't like so much, the rub "electret" creme inside the cover and you will enjot the book better.

 

 

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hehe

I see, making more fun!

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No, seriously, that's how it should work.

You think it's only an aural phenomenon?

The "electret" creme should also make you able to sleep better.

Right?

Think about May's claim, Chris.

Why is she wasting her time on our small backwater hobby of audiophilia?

Never asked yourself that?

Don't knock balut - unless you've tried, you can't comment with any validity.

 

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food

Anton, do you have an eating disorder?

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Point?

And what was the point?

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"I'm not demanding anything"

Ilikemusic wrote,

"No one including myself is demanding anything."

Huh?!  Of course you are.  You are demanding that someone, anyone perform controlled blind tests using multiple participants, presumably to convince  the skeptics out there, at least according to you.  Who will never be convinced these things work.  I suggest you, like Randi, stick to paranormal activity.

Ilikemusic wrote,

"Your claim that the number of skeptics is few is highly questionable."

Really?  Prove it.  

Ilikemusic wrote,

"Understand that the skeptic membership includes every single audio equipment manufacturer and recording label in the world since not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly."

Shame on them.  One assumes they have their heads in the sand like you.

ilikemusic wrote,

"Would May like for one of her ridiculous Quantum Foil strips to be affixed to every cd and lp manufactured? for her ludicrous cream to be applied to every piece of audio equipment manufactured?"

If it made the sound better, it would be a shame not to.  Most likely manufacturers and record execs are not interested in making the sound better.  Again, like you.  Note: You really got it bad, doncha?  Lol

Geoff Kait

Machina Dynamica

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More food

Anton, I hear mayonnaise makes a wonderful hair conditioner!

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You will believe anything, I guess. It goes beyond audio tweaks!
ChrisS wrote:

Anton, I hear mayonnaise makes a wonderful hair conditioner!

I suppose you tried it, then, since someone told you it was a good idea.

No way you could decide in advance.

Tell me how that Sicilian cheese was, since you can't know about something unless you try it!

kiss

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Reply to ILikeMusic

 

Quote:

>>> “Understand that the skeptic membership includes every single audio equipment manufacturer and recording label in the world since not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly.” <<<

 

Oh, just how wrong can you be !!!!!   I only wish the techniques used would GLOW !!!!

 

THEN we would all be able to see just what might be glowing in YOUR room !!!

 

You haven’t a clue what might be going on, ILikeMusic, under your very nose !!!!

 

And yet you state, categorically, with such a sweeping statement, that “every single manufacturer” – “not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly” when it is SO obvious that you CANNOT possibly know !!!!!

 

But I DO know !!!!   But, it is completely up to the manufacturer whether they wish to disclose such or not.

 

Regards,

May Belt.

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multi-use

Thought you would be interested, since you seem to be on a track about multi-use products.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_4464405_use-mayonnaise-hair-conditioner.html

 

Isn't Northern California a different planet?

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Controlled tests - controlled, indeed!

Ilikemusic wrote,

""Ilikemusic, shouldn't you be going after dowsers and spoonbenders and other paranormal activity?"

I routinely do just that.  It is my duty."

I believe it.  A man on a mission. 

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

""No magazine in this hobby performs carefully controlled blind tests of the type you propose.  Don't you know that?"

And your point would be? And this admission after writing

"As I already said, many tests have been done over the years, including blind tests."

showing that you twice claimed otherwise."

The PWB reviews i linked to included some blind tests.  Not up to Randi's "standards", nevertheless.

 

 Ilikemusic wrote,

""Even if they did, it would be just plain silly since everyone knows that negative results of such tests are meaningless.  Don't you know that?"

This is nonsense."

I did not see that coming.  Isn't it obvious that any test can result in negative results for any of a number of reasons, including failure to follow instructions, test subject's hearing not up to par, inexperience with listening tests and one or more problems with the test system.  

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

""The Amazing Randi, the famous witchhunter, has made a career of devising carefully controlled blind tests with many trials that are so carefully controlled that no one can possibly pass them."

This is the most revealing statement that you have made on this forum."

Really?  How so? I'm dying to know.

 

ilikemusic wrote,

"Yes, Geoff, science is a rigorous process.

I wonder if Randi could devise an experiment in which gravity would fail?"

I dunno, Randi spends all his time going after spoonbenders and dowsers.  All in the name of science.  Lol

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

""Isn't that really the type of test you have in mind?"

I have in mind, at a minimum, a double blind A/B experiment where A=no cream, B=cream over 1-2 dozen trials for each of 4-5 dozen participants, the experiment repeated by 2-3 independent individuals/organizations and in which the results and test procedures are published in respected scientific forums and are available for peer review. And yes, I highly doubt that the participants as a whole will do better than random guessing.  Sounds like you do too.  I also realize that this will likely never happen.  So be it."

Gee, that sounds just like the sort of test The Amazing Randi would propose - I.e., one that no human being has a snowball's chance in hell of passing.  But not because the device under test doesn't work, but because the test is inherently rigged.  That's precisely why The Amazing Randi has never had to cough up $1 Million.  And That's why Randi went after, uh, certain audio products, taking a break from the usual paranormal grind.  He didn't have to know anything about audio. He had the test wired.

As I expected, you don't even wait for the test to draw your conclusions.  Not very scientific of you, old bean.  Why do I have the nagging feeling that the "respected scientific forums" you have in mind are just as closed minded and dismissive as you?  

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

"The amount of money, knowledge and fame involved in a 'positive' outcome of such a series of tests is quite staggering. It is meaningful that nobody cares to investigate it seriously."

well, in fairness, the respected scientific forums you have in mind are most likely as dismissive and closed minded as you are.  Besides, talk's cheap - you yourself don't care to investigate it seriously, preferring instead to pontificate from the comfort of your easy chair.  Ah, the easy life of the pseudo skeptic.

 

Geoff Kait

www.machinadynamica.com

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Different planet, keep out.
ChrisS wrote:

Thought you would be interested, since you seem to be on a track about multi-use products.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_4464405_use-mayonnaise-hair-conditioner.html

 

Isn't Northern California a different planet?

 

Yes.

You'd hate it.

Have fun with the mayo hair tweak. It must work for you!

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food issues

Anton, are you bulimic?

ChrisS
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Northern California

Did NASA ever send an explorer out there? How about William Shatner?

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Point? What Point?

Who wants to be Jane?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3t-DuN8t6U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INMxCynadlI&feature=related

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I did not see that coming

Ilikemusic, wrote,

"Geoff

You are an illiterate fool."

I know you are but what am I? 

Run out of ammo, eh?

 

Geoff kait

machina Dynamica

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Reply to ILikeMusic

 

Quote:

>>> “The Quantum Foil would be visible if it were affixed to a cd by the manufacturer.” <<<

 

Did you say that truism sentence because you thought it would be a killer line ?

 

Of course something like a strip of Foil would be visible, it is SOOOOO obvious it does not even need saying in a discussion between (or merely read by) intelligent people.

 

Let us now look at something INVISIBLE !!   Something which has been around in the world of audio for possibly 30 years.  The  Cryogenic Freezing technique.

 

I repeat my earlier sentence, ILikeMusic, :-

Quote:

>>> “You haven’t a clue what might be going on, ILikeMusic, under your very nose !!!!” <<<

 

Would you know, just from looking at different equipment, how many manufacturers of audio equipment cryogenically freeze the components and general bits and pieces before assembly ?

 

That technique is invisible !!   ONE of the techniques which is invisible !!

 

Another alternative technique would be if Nordost decided to produce their own LPs and CDs.   Would YOU know whether they had applied their ECO 3 liquid to the labels of the LPs and to the label side of the CDs ?   Or, would you know if they apply their ECO 3 liquid to the outer insulation of any of their cables ?

 

Yet another example would be if a producer of LPs and CDs and cables applied a demagnetiser to their LPs, CDs and cables before releasing them to the general public.

 

Just HOW visible do you think any of those techniques would be.

 

Nothing to do with “being able to SEE a strip of Foil” !!!

Regards,

May Belt.

 

 

 

 

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Falls off...

If someone falls off the edge of the Earth and no one sees or hears it, did it really happen?

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Toast, I'd say.
ChrisS wrote:

If someone falls off the edge of the Earth and no one sees or hears it, did it really happen?

Like this thread?

laugh

Bottom line, mission accomplished, Art.

More replies to this thread than all other monthly issue thread replies for the year to date....combined.

I do mourn the future loss of column inches that will be wasted by Art writing about the dire social consequences of his writing about vapor-tweaks.

 

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?

Did someone say something?

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Did someone say something?

It must have been the wind.

 

Geoff Kait

Machina Dynamica

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Geoff, you forgot to log out after posting as ChrisS

Sock puppet much?

 

 

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Whoosh!

There's that wind again...

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I heard it again, too

It's kind of like a hot wind.

 

Geoff Kait

machina erotica

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flummery!
geoffkait wrote:

Jimv wrote,

"IMHO, any tweak or device that consists of a tiny number of parts in a box sold at a price many, many times above its cost and which produces a result that only some can hear...well, that is audio flummery."

Oh,, you mean like an amplifier?  That reminds me, we really should consider resurrectIng the thread on how small a device can be and still be effective.  I'm sure you'd get a big kick out if that one.  :-)

 

How much do tweaks cost?  Since you brought it up let's see, what do these things you're so worried about cost?

 

Pwb Rainbow Foil      About 30.00 for pack of 250 foils.

pwb Cream Electret.  About 30.00 for enough to last a year

intellgent chip, original.   16.00

Cryogenically treated CDs, LPs, cables, etc.   about 10.00 per lb.

High end fuses.   Prices start around 20.00

Photos in the Freezer Tweak.     free

Shun Mook Mpingo disc.    75.00, 30.00 on used market

 

Geoff Kait

machismo erotica

 

Hardly the stuff I speak of...if folk want to spend relatively small amounts of money for odd devices and bizarre creams, go for it. When they get $50 worth of parts in a sheet metal box for 4 significant figures, or a brass dinner gong for the same 4 figures, then yes, they have been swizzled. No one likes admitting they have fallen victim to quackery but many are.

My purpose in starting the thread was to note the very high statistical relationship between very high prices with very little actual manufacturing and the claimed effect. They almost always polish the device with claims that are simply untrue for 99% of the folk who might buy it. Too often the emperor is in fact naked.  I also decided to remind folk that, IMHO, a major purpose for a magazine that reviews stuff is to steer the reader clear of such junk.

Although some believe it is possible to polish a horse apple to a high shine, all one has, at the end of the process, is a shiny horse apple and a very dirty pair of hands.

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exactly
ChrisS wrote:

"If the explanation of the effect reads like a tome on alchemy or is 99% psychology driven...again, audio flummery."

 

You can say the same thing of Kellog's Corn Flakes or any marketing hype aimed at kids.

 

Exactly! The difference is, audio manufacturers design for adults. It is the stuff NOT marketed to adults but to children of all ages that are at issue. A ten year old would know better than to pay thousands for a device he knows only cost a few bucks.

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Does a skeptic need to get burned...
ChrisS wrote:

Wow, 174 (+1) posts on this thread!! I guess I find it perversely entertaining to see people arguing about products that they've never tried and have no intention of ever trying and yet have so much to say without any first hand experience!

Is that what Law is about?

 

Must one be burned on the stove of quackery to know quackery...I am reminded of a great Cheech and Chong skit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7ZX6ngOSs

One does not have to taste doggie doo to know it is best avoided.

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What's that smell?

JIMV,

What a great skit! Reminds me of those late, late nights listening to great programs of ground-breaking talent that used to be found on FM radio many years ago!

Now, unlike Cheech and Chong, none of the skeptics here have tasted, smelled, or even stepped in the dog shit to "know" that the Belt products are dog shit.... Yet, you've already made your pronouncements! All you've done is to register your opinions and your prejudices.

In "Law", one employs someone else's experiences in a parallel situation to make a judgement. In this case, the skeptics have already pre-judged Art Dudley's experiences with the products in question to be null and void.

JIMV, do you drive a Ford or a Chev? From my own past experiences with Ford vehicles, I thought I'd never drive a Ford again. But recent reviews of new products have me interested again. So does my experience with a Ford station wagon 20 years ago tell me that all of today's Ford products are dog shit? Of course not! At least not until I've smelled, tasted, and stepped in one...

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Art is not the issue...the very costly very iffy tweaks are

And the car is an old Jeep...

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Dollars and sense...

Really? I don't know of too many 10 year olds or even adults who realize that a $6 box of cereal costs pennies to manufacture. And if they did know, does that stop them from making a purchase? Does your average 10 year old realize that their favorite brand name clothing apparel or sport shoe may be made in some sweat shop manned by laborers of the same age?

Do you know of anyone who was forced to buy a Ferrari? Even when they found out that the Ferrari had 4 wheels and had some of the same nuts and bolts as some cheaper brands?...

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Value

Jeeps, especially old Jeeps, are great!

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