HUH?!

Quote:
If you are seeing what you are listening to ...

If you are actually seeing what you are listening to you either have a way better system than I do or a better street connection. I know it's not the former.

Quote:
... now MF is pissed, he wasted money on the $100K spinning platter?

He told you that? That isn't what I read.

Dup,

More of "teh" same indeed, more of the same from you that is!

Your rant seem more a recounting of common themes you hold dear to heart than a rational criticism of the Fremer review. Included in those common themes we have:

1) Irrational attacks on Fremer.
2) Rejection, as

Oh right, another item for the list...

- Complete dismissal of LP replay.

... and we need reminding of that and all the other things you feel so passionately about via a steady stream of sophomoric rants exactly why?... for goodness sake Man grow up!

That I understand!

Huh?! How do you come up with this crap?

It's called "proof by assertion," Jan.

Carl is essentially saying, "You can take my word for it if you don't believe me," albeit at greater length and frequency.

Geez, you could follow that post? Or did you just guess that's what he was trying to say?

I don't own a turntable & have no plans to buy one.
However, there must be a market for them(and other expensive products)otherwise manufacturers wouldn't make them!
If you don't like the reviews, don't read them!!!
P.S.- Stephen, I really would like a spell checker here as I'm not too bright!

Does this thread have something to do with changing teh English language???

All over this forum I see "teh" as if it's used on purpose. Am I missing something?

Dave

I think the "teh" is all in his mind to be such a constant misspelling.

Am I the only one who noticed that Mr. Fremer has gotten so good that he can now review a turntable with an unfamiliar arm and just home right in on the innate sound of the table, bypassing the arm completely?

Check his review of the Merrill-Scillia Research MS21 and look for the part that says, "I will not be discussing the tonearm"....[even though it was the only one I used with this table and I have not previously reviewed it.]

Come on, amigos, a guy who can run into a new table with an unfamiliar arm and then write a review of just the table is not your average average guy - he's special.

At least with the other turntable review in the new issue, he acknowledged the possibility of an arm/table combination affecting the sound.

I wonder, how long until he can review turntables with no arm at all?

(Sorry to end up in the "DUP-region," but someone does seem to review in ways that mere mortals cannot.)

After reviewing the vacuum cleaner's power cord, he will claim that the vacuum cleaner sounded more concise with greater bass extension. The vacuum cleaner had a lower noise floor with this new power cord, with blacker blacks and less hiss.

He will also go on to state that he prefers the older, analog vacuum cleaners vs. the new digital cleaners, because the digital vacuum suction pulse of 44.1 hz isn't fast enough to get all the dirt.

Upon testing the vacuum cleaner, JA will discover that the vacuum cleaner's plug wasn't polarized properly. MF will claim that after hearing the vacuum cleaner again, with proper polarization, that he liked it even more because there was more "there, there". So... there.

This is what I read: Michael Fremer's positive comments about the physical properties/improvements of the Tri-Planar tonearm were merely observations and did not constitute a "review" or endorsement of its individual sonic character. The turntable was then reviewed as a unit with that arm. The review was well written and conveyed enough essential information, filtered through years of Fremer's experience, to inform the readers and impart a sense of understanding.

Are the previous posters vying to fill a void left by the striking screenwriter's guild? If so, they may not want to team up with someone so contemptuously hateful of the language and the due consideration necessary to communicate effectively. But given the lack of anything worth saying, I guess language and context don't mean shit anyway.

Newsflash: After conducting a tactical assault on Michael Fremmer of Stereophile, Dup gathered his minions in an ad hoc battle formation to lead an all out assault on the English language. Having taken advantage of the screen writer's guild strike, the English language found itself lacking a sufficiently skilled force to defend itself. The English language was overrun by poor spelling, grammar and punctuation. Yet it was the typos flanking from the side that dealt a final blow.

Having been blind sided by the fall of the English language, Michael Fremmer found himself speechless. In his final suicidal rush, he flung his remaining superlatives and cash at a poorly spoken, out of phase turntable. As MF's lifeless career hit the blood soaked, improperly spelled battlefield, Fremmer whispered "rosebud" before disappearing into the oblivion alongside the likes Corey Greenberg and Chip Stern.

You get em , Dup.

Dup + MF bashing = one of my favorite combos

DUP, did you even read Alex O's post?

Now, don't get excited. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

For the millionth time, DUP, Van Alstine electronics do not validate your tin ear and bad grammar. This is average budget stuff. I have heard his best. Cambridge, Creek, Music Hall, and NAD beat the crap out of the junk you pimp, at 1/2 - 1/3 the price, in terms of neutrality and soundstaging.

No wonder you can't tell a zip cord from a Tara Labs -- your cheesy electronics aren't letting anything downstream.

Sorry. It's a slow night in Euroland -- the dollar is weak and gold is strong, but what else is new? So, I thought I'd just trade a few insults with my favorite woody.

Buddha makes a serious point, about the arm-turntable combo, but I suspect it's a matter of style and garbled communications from Mike's end. I have enough confidence in Mike's analog recommendations to at least go listen for myself.

DUP, there is nothing you could recommend that would get me off the crapper, much less out the front door. Got that? Anything you tout is a mandate for avoidance. Your posts have done more to banish Van Alstine and Legacy (undeservedly so, in terms of the latter, but, again, one must consider the source...) from the merest pretensions to respectability than any bad review could ever do.

Do the digital. Leave analog to those of us who enjoy music.

thank you. For it is indeed - crap. Dup's behaviour is primarily offensive in nature. Unless something suits the way he wants to see the world and/or understands it..he attacks it in some fashion.

Apparently..he understands very little. For he attacks all the time.

The primarly consideration for good moderating, in a forum that has a point of controversy,as this space does, ie Objectivism and subjectivism..is to remove, with instant and extreme prejudice..any posts that rant in a way that is extreme.

Also, to remove posters who violate that premise of 'human, thinking people, who have a capacity to see all sides of an argument in an agreeable and open minded fashion'. To remove them, without warning, and with prejudice. Even to the point of banning their IP's when they attempt to 'come back' in disguise.

The net is rife with them, and this forum will garner no large user base that reflects the buyers of the magazine...until such a point is enacted. Basically it should be (for reasons of overall sanity) a largely DBT (Double Blind test) free zone.

I have no problem with DBT testing, per se, but I have a problem with folks who, due to their obvious behaviour..have no freaking clue how to do such testing and have no idea how to hear these nuances and differences. Or how to conduct a proper DBT test that leaves these nuances within the context of the test, so the test remains valid.

It's like trying to explain the multiplication tables to a shithawk. All it can do is scream at you, no matter what you do.

Anyone who argues that a given isolation device, or cable, or whatever the case may be..in a DEROGATORY and CONFRONTATIONAL MANNER......MUST be removed (after ONE warning) from the rolls of forum members immediately.

And, maybe, just maybe, a year from now..this forum will be a hopping and happening place.

Right now, it merely serves a place for 'mouth breather' objectivists to run rampant and attack people for understanding something that they don't..or they refuse to attack with logic or reason..and respond with childish rants and anger, instead.

The situation is complex, to say the least. And, like in Solomon's temple, the blade must be drawn, and the child must be cut in half in some manner.

I would venture that to save the child (Stereophile readership, overall)..that the Objectivists that exist without reason, the ones who post with vitrol..MUST be banned with extreme prejudice.

End of story.

And the beginning of a working Stereophile Forum.

HI, KBK.

As an objective subjectivist, I think we need both flavors and both sides expressing their ideas in order to decrease the width of then chasm between the two camps.

I believe listening is actually a potentially objective thing, so I land with the subjectivists on the importance of using one's ears as a guide.

On the other hand, I think we need to explore the notion of "repeatability" for subjective claims. I think of this as a fun sub-subject in the hobby. This kind of discussion makes me think more about my listening and how I hear things, which makes the hobby ever more enjoyable.

All in all, it's just light fun disagreement that takes place between audio friends, so I hope we never evolve into an either/or site.

As to DUP, think of him as an idiot savant, light on the savant, who likes to rattle teacups with his system and call it "lifelike."

After you learn the five things he is able to post, you can just skim a thread for the posts between when DUP is busy replying to himself.

One good general rule about DUP...

I think there are two issues at hand here:

1. Whether hifi is about the euphonics, ie the joy of sound or if it's about accurate reproduction. A case can be made for either school of thought. For example: what good is accuracy if you are not involved emotionally with the music? Conversely, how do you define fidelity and how do judge equipment if all you're doing is asking for colorations? Then one man's euphony is another's distorted horror.

2. Snake oil - Various manufacturers are offering accessories that they claim raise the level of playback. These involve power cables, interconnects, vibropods, etc. None of these accessories are cheap and the seemingly wilder the claims, the more expensive an accessory becomes. Somehow, it's impossible to make a good interconnect for $10, they have to cost hundreds, thousands and even hundreds of thousands. This is where DUP comes in. If you carefully read his posts, his main objection is with the overpriced equipment and accessories that make very wild, unsubstantiated claims and those who defend these claims without any sort of scientific proof. This is the area where most of his rants are concentrated. He makes very valid points in this regard and if you can get past his presentation, you will see intelligent ideas being discussed.

With regards to banning, and aggressive moderation of the forums, we've traveled this road before. I don't think we need to travel it again. There is room for all opinions and we are big boys and girls and I think we can handle DUP's rants and raves. There's no need to run to mommy.

KBK,
you are far more offensive than dup. You have no right to call for a ban and censorship.

Your recommendations and your posts do far more damage .

But since I am not an arrogant prognosticator like you I wouldn't call for you to be banned.

I would, however, be glad to recommend a place where you can put your overinflated head.

I think you may have missed the point. Which isn't unusual, in that they say that only about 9-12% of what one means is actually understood in a face-to-face conversation.

The vast majority of users who MIGHT venture into this forum..and discuss..what they love, and it is AUDIO re-created in their homes...by EQUIPMENT...they would likely take one offensive jab from the likes of DUP..and then..never post again.

As an example, someone I know, personally, in fact..made a relatively innocent inquiry in the 'high end' area of the AVSForum. Andy asked if folks had much experience with the Nordost Cable Burner.

He was slammed by the 'objectivist' camp so much..for even CONSIDERING that a cable burner was a valid thing to buy or use...that he never even posted a single follow up to his intital inquiry.

A-Holes can't simply leave others alone, is the point. The so-called objectivists, in a startlingly high number of instances, are merely prejudice and bias in disguise, with no attempt of any kind to work at finding their own solutions to the puzzles presented..other than viciously deriding those who feel otherwise. Ie, no balance in their psychology.

Such behaviour does not serve this Forum's intentions very well, I'd wager. Thus the obvious point: Do what needs be done.

~~~~~~~~~

To clarify-

The vast majority of audiophiles are gentle souls who have no time in their lives for uselessly confrontational and repetitively psychotic bullshit that the people who contribute the most vitrol on this forum, or other forums, exude, in virtually every post.

Gentle Audiophiles, these music lovers, the folks the forum is >>REALLY<< trying to reach, they will never post here, or come here, if they are constantly attacked. Or, if attacked - even once. Hell..they won't ever come here, at all.

Get it?

The final point is that Folks like DUP, in terms of nature and style of posting, under any method of analysis, are fundamentally destructive to the nature and reason behind the Stereophile Forum itself.

Another way to see it:

DUP is standing outside of a High-End audio shop. He is there every day.

He waits for folks to walk by, talking to them as the walk away, or following them in and talking to them while they are in the store. Or he attempts to talk to the employees, owners and any Reps that might visit. Trying to tell them that all they do --is wrong.

How long would it be before the business owners call the police on him and have an injunction slapped on him, or attempt to have him committed for his obviously bent behaviour? How long before they call the police on him??

Less than a week, for sure. More like 2 hours or less.

No, kbk , I did understand your post. Your elementary thought process is simply not that hard to follow.

I am a subjectivist as well but I don't like censorship.

The only "vicious" attack here is your call for banning someone who doesn't share your view.
Get over it, ignore his posts.