Which is another point to consider. You are 70 what? I know May is in her mid to late 80's and you are in your I think late 70's. This is maybe why you have made some of the recent choices you have in regards to system changing.

I don't know if either of you are wearing hearing aids, but this could very well be why you are describing the sound the way you do sometimes. The older one gets the more sensitive they are with either loosing part of the range or having other problems with the highs. I have seen a lot of folks for example judge digital that are over 45, and describe it as a harsh sound and others who have better high frequency response hear digital as smooth and liquid. I remember tuning for some of the TAS guys and them mentioning this to me, and having me tune the system a certain way so it was easier on their hearing.

A lot of guys like vinyl because they can adjust for a warmer sound, but you will also notice if it's a young pup with fresh ears they will set the table up differently than many who are in their 50-80 range. For myself, I couldn't imagine having a system with one sound. Would drive me right up the wall, and was one of the things that bugged me about the portables. I'm so use to every recording having it's own merits that when I hear something out of tune I have an alarm go off in my head "how out of tune" and "do I want to mess with it".

Yes there are many deal killers with all of this, and I guess is why I am sometimes surprised to see you sick to your guns so tightly and not shoot for making things that are more variable. But that will change in time I bet. Unless you give up the hobby altogether.

Your not getting any younger there Pops.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

As Ron pointed out on another thread (I paraphrase) a little too much bad Karma for the good of the forum.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

a little too much bad Karma.

Might I invite readers over to TuneLand and compare.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Come on Geoff & May, let's go do some referencing on http://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-listen-supertramp-brother-where-you-bound

Exciting times on the stereophile forum. Ron is referencing along with our long time good ears Catch22. Catch chose a recording that we all feel good about and with this the commons among us are starting to shine. Hope you will see the importance of "being there".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Well geoff, I hope you change your mind.

Since the "Brother Where You Bound" thread was posted, for the first time I feel at home here. I'm sure many here feel the same way. Words pale vs the actual event. When Ron shared his space experience and Catch said the magic word "volume" I got chills. I knew I was in the presence of listeners and I feel like a little kid at christmas! The systems were turned on and the forum at that point took on true meaning. Listeners exploring not to one up the other but to share. There is nothing like the feeling of both master and student. It's a passion this hobby provides, that few other hobbies can.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I'm a lot better listener than talker.

Nothing like having several systems and being able to have your own private stereo trade show in your own home. Which makes me want to ask you geoff. During your experiences have you had all the above systems in your place at one time?

It doesn't appear like you've had the in-room, high end CD and Sony Walkman Cassette in your place all at the same time. Also, what year was your high end CD player system? By reading your comments, it almost seems like the in-room system was discarded before your high end headphone system was put in place.

The in-room was gone 8 years ago, the 103 was a model from 2012 and the 93 2010, so those weren't around with your in-room. What I'm saying is how did you come to conclusions on your referencing if the units were not apart of the same overall comparisons?

As a designer of many years I find it useful to have several systems around to do ping ponging with, so that in my designing I can make adaptations as I find the need for either a particular client or conditions.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Well that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it!

Thanks for the clarification!

I hope you don't mind if I quote you.

Geoff Kait's system as of a year or so ago, moving on from his High End Audio headphone system and in-room system.

geoff says

"Actually I have a near photographic memory. So I don't need to AB compare two or three systems at the same time. I have exceptionally long term memory of music for some weird reason. I currently have three formats of portable players, Mr. Cassette Walkman, Mr. CD Walkman and FMAM radio walkman. I want for nothing. I also in case I jones for other manufacturers I keep a good supply of other brands of CD players to listen to as well, panasonic (very nice, very nice), Philips ( not bad, really), and some off brands like Bose (pretty good, pretty nice, don't knock it lol), Craig, Aiwa and Radio Shack."

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Geoff

I don't see asking for the answers to the questions the audio community has been asking you for many years now, makes anyone a prick. We as a communty ask that things are on the up and up is all. Either we give specs, papers or product demos are usually the 3 main ways we as designers/listeners/hobbyist give our answers. It seems, and I'm not trying to make a flame, that because you haven't supplied reasonable answers it tends to put you on the hot seat. I would recommend answering these questions in at least someway rather than insults, weird pictures and none answer spins.

The question that has floated around a long time is, did you think you wouldn't be called out? Geoff, we're not talking one or two, but perhaps hundreds of people and many forum threads and articles that you have mentioned yourself. Fraud reports, no demos, flaming threads, internet trolling and lack of back ground or R&D will catch up to a person. You jumping from forum to forum plus these un-answered issues paint a picture that I can't imagine you wish to have continued.

Why don't we begin some referencing, and demos of your product and theories in a real time setting. With this lets give credit due where it belongs and not try to make things look like someone is the designer of certain tweaks and or products if you perhaps are not. Lets get to what Geoff Kait is as an inventor and audio designer in an open forum.

I'm sure I can speak for most everyone here as of late in saying "lets get to the listening of music".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

First, I don't see anyone slinging mud at you geoff. What I see are people inviting you to show us what you got. The mud slinging is something you built your reputation on long before any of us knew who you were.

Second, I'm pretty excited that the Stereophile forum has allowed us to be apart of the info here. I've been enjoying the listeners here more and more each day and look forward to a continuing of getting to know them.

here's a response to my peddling a day ago

"Hi Michael,

Yes ..... your tip was right on. Cable management is one of the very key component

By luck I re-located the tune to the center of my front wall and........ BOOM

The solid detailed punchy bass was out of this world.....

The thick fat float harmonics soundstage filled up every inch of my music room..... You could feel the dynamic music beating EFFORTLESSLY....

WAH At last I get back my floating soundstage

I'm not going to experiment further on the different woods insertion under platforms .... . scare of losing my floating soundstage

Enjoying now on "KITARO BEST" album"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I certainly do and have taken responsibility for the misfortune of being pulled into these spins. Why on Earth would I have any desire to attack anyone I don't know geoff? I've only come to know both you and May based on your own characterisings of yourselves. I have nothing more than listening and your own MO's as which to judge you by. If I was tough with either of you, I'm sure it fits in the context of what was writen around the comments.

I have nothing to gain, by going off into fight mode and is why after I got sucked in a few times, I have become a more informed poster.

I don't see this as an attack.

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

I see it as allowing readers to see what is happening here instead of talking about the topics and issues of music and audio. You geoff have painted your own picture, and built your own reputation.

As a listener, you are always welcome as a friend, but my loyalty has been and always will be the industry/hobby/listener and those who come to give spins, are not welcome in my book or presense. There are certain things I do not cut slack for. Internet trolling is one I have had to learn about on this particular forum and will do my best to make people aware of this un-ethical practice, as it is very unbecoming to those who come to listen, learn and share.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

" He will of course have a smart ass answer to deflect his lack
of understanding your legitimate (and damn good) question, 'cause that's how he do.
You shouldn't expect more than that from him though.

Well, maybe a smart ass photo after he gets tired of typing.

Mostly I suspect he'd rather be selling his quantum tweaks that he has
trouble explaining in any sort of cohesive fashion than trying to answer
a question that you'd be better off asking that cartoon character in the video."

mg

I see that geoff's trolling MO is alive and well. Even on his own forum, interesting. You would think he would just answer the questions and give music demos. Seems he has built his own fire so big that he now in later years doesn't have a big enough hose to put it out. Sad really, but it's his own doing.

now can we get back to listening to music geoff? how hard is that?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

There are people who make the movies, and others who watch them.

As for myself, I don't know many "part time" experts. In the case of this particular hobby, I see those coming to discussion forums posturing as such, but their posting suggest differently. Saying that, this hobby should welcome all, at whatever involvement level they happen to be at.

My view of balance is shaped by my involvement and desire of that involvement. The balance is also about the pleasure of my calling in life as to having a purpose. Many live within the structure of living aside from their job. They have neatly divided time priorities that are spread out to many areas. And than there are "experts" who have dedicated their lives to a specific purpose and feel out of place outside of that purpose. I confess, I'm one who doesn't know the domestic life and the riches people have found in that world. My life was designed to do and be what I love. Never had to ask, what else is there, as I have found (or it found me) that music has always offered the opportunity and next step in life.

Honestly I don't understand any of you posturing yourselves or starting wars, or trolling here. I can't help but to think that there is something missing in ones life who has to do these things. So much talk, and so little doing. And now I'm attacked for wanting to listen to music 24/7. A strange group of people you are. I thought this forum was called Stereophile? You would certainly not know it, lol. "out of balance" now am I? Wonder what else these very odd people will come up with when running across people who love what they do?

pretty shallow guys

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Nope, just use to being direct is all. There's a difference between seeing something as a waste of time and being angry. There is also a difference between anger and disapointment.

Let me give you an example Ron.

What would happen to me if I went around telling studios and listeners that they need to be listening to the sony ultra-lights like geoff has been saying and being very rude to those disagreeing calling them liar and all kinds of stupid things, and after a year telling them "Just Kidding"? My reputation as a serious listener, designer and engineer would be over. Honestly in my biz it would be over as soon as I mentioned it. The first guy would put on a pair and laugh me out of the biz.

Ron we are all here to represent ourselves, and that's what I do except for the times I fall into that stupid trolling spin. Remember the comment you made about shining a turd. You might be able to say that (joking, misunderstanding or serious), but I can't make statements that loosely without answering for them. I can't say "I choose the MDV 2300" without meaning it, and being johnny on the spot to prove. You guys don't have to answer to the music biz, I do. You guys also don't have to answer to other experts, I do, and I do every day. Days when those experts are telling me I'm an ass for being on this "joke of a forum". As much time as I'm trying to be serious here, I'm also defending this forum and the posters here, to many in this industry who don't want to touch these pages. Why? And I'm not lying. They think it's a joke, and isn't a good representative of this industry or hobby or magazine. Now you can paint me as angry or overly sensitive or whatever, but most of the readers paint me as one of the people in this industry who actually cares.

Ron, stop a minute and ask yourself why there aren't any reviewers coming up and posting, or designers? Oh they're reading, you can see that, and I get the emails to tell me so. They're not coming up to be flamed, or getting stuck with half their day being in some type of spin. The only reason I'm still here is because of the numbers getting ahold of us, and the hope that this hobby can get back to it's better self.

Let me ask you a question Ron, and don't get upset. What happened to the Ron that 2 weeks ago was referencing music here? Why would you be talking to me here trying to make things run smoothly and spread out the credit, when you know you could change this forum by referencing music and being a cheerleader for the cause of music? Ron if you were talking music these threads wouldn't be going the way they are. I'm not just saying you but anyone. It would take one dedicated hobbyist to turn the grey into blue-skies, just one.

My friend harmony comes from listening, not talking. True I might be direct, but I'm also that guy listening to music 24/7 and living the music dream. And if you truly see me as angry you have not been listening. There's no anger in harmony. Try not to mistake anger for determination.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoff said

"I realize you think you're God's gift to AUDIO but there are other things in life worth pursuing. Audio is actually not the end all be all in LIFE."

mg

On the contrary, I think audio (music) is God's gift to man, and each of us is given a portion of gifts that we can either use or loose. We can be either in-tune with ourselves and the gifts around and in us, or be captured by the negatives we create out of our own emptiness.

I see it as two types as well. Those who never stop looking for the "IF's" of life, and those who know how to receive and practice the gifts when given to them.

Geoff, there are those who makeup the stories, and those who are the stories. Music is about those who are the stories.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

After two years of asking we finally come to the advanced concepts May & geoff have to offer along with their explainations.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/free-tweak-pwb-4-legged-device

http://www.stereophile.com/content/morphic-housekeeping-101

http://www.stereophile.com/content/lets

To be clear these are not something we as Tunees are endorsing but merely giving links to.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Oh, I'm just having a little fun watching you and your girlfriend stumble all over yourselves, when folks ask you guestions is all. Other than that, keeping myself busy playing with systems. Thanks for asking!

Are you guys coming over later for some listening?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi readers

After a long and winding road with May Belt & Geoff Kait we have finally received some answers to their agenda, both here and on other forums. The short version can be summed up in two quotes. One from May and the other from Geoff. As you read through these threads and threads on other audio forums where they get involved these quotes will probably become helpful, they were for me.

geoff said

"I never said I wasn't a troll. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it."

may said

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies", internet "sparring"

My advice is, just be aware of audio forum trolls, and what their MO's are and their goal.

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

If you do get in discussions with either May or geoff you may want to read up on what motivates these folks to do what they do. You can start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

One more note from me. Something that made me suspicious from the very beginning. Both May and geoff have been odd as designers or even audiophiles when it comes to their personal listening systems and practice. This for me sends red flags. Being an audio designer, especially one that deals in tweaks, you work with people all day long on their system concerns and or wishes. Today for example my first call was at 6:45am. In working on their systems you must have a system or systems of your own to be able to reference sounds. This is the absolute most important factor in helping someone, constantly listening and studying the variables. In the two years I have been talking with May & Geoff I have not seen May do any of this, and got defensive even mentioning her system or the need for one. Geoff on the other hand only uses portable walkman cassette players. In both cases, getting trolled by them endlessly and the lack of their general audio knowledge and transparancy, I can't see their agenda as being anything else than internet trolling, from what they have said and what others have been saying about them for some 15 or so years.

I'm sure their trolling will continue, but for us who would rather be talking the hobby of listening to music there may need to be detours. I of course have my own forum, for others I hope my advice is of help. More than likely they will have no need to troll you.

enjoy the music

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

One thing I have always enjoyed in life is being able to get back to those good hair days. We all go through tuff times in life, some tougher than others. I won't name my tough times necessarily, but I will share the good hair days.

This is a fact about me that some may not know and others know too well. Since I have been 11 years of age every place I have lived the first thing I would do is setup a stereo and tweak it. Whether being in my bedroom growing up to playing bluegrass/gospel/rock all the way through thick and thin the one thing that was consistant and never changed was my need for the listening room or rooms.

For me this has always been a badge of happiness and the first thing I see when talking to or visiting someone. Where is their stereo and how used is their listening chair. I can not imagine or even remember a day where I didn't have several people waiting for me to respond to their sound request. I have several friends that will tell you when I was visiting them for a short time, if they didn't have a listening room I would go off to their garrage, basement, factory, attic or spare bedroom and start putting in a listening room without even thinking about asking. I guess I always figured everyone knew this was going to be what I did.

You see geoff you make fun of the 24/7 music life and I can't think of any other life. About a month ago I got a thing in the mail saying for me to come in and spin for my gift at a local casino (great buffet). I had my meal then heard my name to spin. I won a cruise all expenses paid. I can't even imagine going. Why would I want to go? To get away? To get away from what? Geoff makes fun of me listening to music and I feel like I have the greatest holiday a person can have every day. I have a system in my writing/bedroom. I take a step out of that room and I have an audio room to my left, one straight across the landing, one directly as I walk downstairs, a system in my soldering room, and a system when I walk out to my outside living room. I have a listening room in north east Ohio, one to visit at Harold's and one to visit in Chicago and San Diego.

Rehab lol, I'm pretty sure it's you who is on drugs geoff. You have zero listening rooms and zero stereos. You have a portable sony walkman cassette player, fake client quotes, and don't know your birthdate. You cuss people out here and have a trolling partner that has never shown her system to any of us. Not sure she has one anymore to be honest.

You guys come here and show nothing but sadness, and tell us we have a drinking problem when I for one don't even drink. The both of you Geoff Kait & May Belt have shown less of a system than anyone I know here. Two "audio designers" no "audio system"? Sorry but I think maybe I'm not the one feeling so bad.

geoff says

"I realize you think you're God's gift to AUDIO but there are other things in life worth pursuing. Audio is actually not the end all be all in LIFE."

geoff said

"I never said I wasn't a troll. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it."

may said

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies" and "sparring" with them.

If I'm having a bad hair day, I would hate to be suffering with whatever you, may & peter belt have.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Stereophile is moving beyond May & geoff in a trolling sense. As much as they push their efforts the listener is going to move past flames & internet trolling and on to listening. This forum is not named "how to troll" but Stereophile (the art of studying stereos). Trolling, even though it seems like it will never end, pales compared to the hobby of listening and those like May & geoff at the end of the day will only be known for what they have produced as part of the community. readers know that it's not the last post wins. They know that these pages build or defame reputations. The harder the trolls push for disorder, the more the listeners of this hobby will stand out.

The readers only need to look that May doesn't show her stereo system & geoff doesn't have one to make their minds up. Geoff trying to paint the illusions he does only points to him as the troll. The louder he attacks the more people will read him and May as far as that goes "being loud". Both May & geoff don't understand that even though they think they are painting pictures of others, their the ones screaming and carrying on.

Pretty simple stuff to read through the forums and see May's now famous quote at play, along with geoff's confession.

geoff said

"I never said I wasn't a troll. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it."

may said

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies" and "sparring" with them.

As for the rest of us, we're listening to music and talking about the hobby.

thank you again ChrisS for your loyalty to the hobby, your doing a great service

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/