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michael green
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as ChrisS says nothing but spins

Totally classless May!

michael green
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hcooper99 wrote:
hcooper99 wrote:

Yes, I am very real and it's Harold, not Harry! The fact that you thought I was made up is a total insult to me and this forum! If you could actually be in a room where you could make one adjustment to one panel by tightening or loosening a screw and totally change the overall sound, wouldn't you say WOW! WOW!? We are here to bring enjoyment to the listeners out there and give them a method to get there. You guys are strictly here to give childish responses
and put up cartoons just to keep your personal war going. I'm not into that and don't look for me to respond to any more of your posts because it's just a total waste of my time. It's a shame people like you are even in this industry - you give high end audio and the simple enjoyment of a great system A very bad vibe. This is about people enjoying, not destroying this industry! You guys must have a lot of spare time on your hands to post so often and have it be all crap! I myself am too busy with a real life to waste my time in your petty fight. I suggest you get a real life and buzz off!

Good one.

michael green
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geoff's new project

Some of you might find this as interesting as myself. Recently Geoff has switched to low mass/simple, in reverse of his heavy mass CD system http://www.stereophile.com/content/you-want-dynamics .

Good for you Geoff, wasn't that difficult now was it?

It's easy in this hobby for those who go down a narrow path for so long to take their ears off of one of the things that makes this hobby so exciting "dynamics". What Geoff is experiencing with his walkman project is the reason I stay in the tuning world using minimalism to give the maximum.

You've read me talk about the "change in the hobby". Geoff's new thread is a good example of what I was referencing. The hobby slipped into this lack of dynamic range mode in designing and then started making the problem worse by adding more of the problem to the mix. Although I can see the newly created spins coming from a mile away now, I hope you take the time to see the trees through the forest.

We need to get back to simple and low mass in our designing, and reverse the over built trend that has taken us away from the music. Sometimes it takes looking back in order to move forward.

michael green
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geoffkait
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Let's look a little closer at what happened, shall we?
michael green wrote:

Some of you might find this as interesting as myself. Recently Geoff has switched to low mass/simple, in reverse of his heavy mass CD system http://www.stereophile.com/content/you-want-dynamics .

Good for you Geoff, wasn't that difficult now was it?

It's easy in this hobby for those who go down a narrow path for so long to take their ears off of one of the things that makes this hobby so exciting "dynamics". What Geoff is experiencing with his walkman project is the reason I stay in the tuning world using minimalism to give the maximum.

You've read me talk about the "change in the hobby". Geoff's new thread is a good example of what I was referencing. The hobby slipped into this lack of dynamic range mode in designing and then started making the problem worse by adding more of the problem to the mix. Although I can see the newly created spins coming from a mile away now, I hope you take the time to see the trees through the forest.

We need to get back to simple and low mass in our designing, and reverse the over built trend that has taken us away from the music. Sometimes it takes looking back in order to move forward.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Before you get your engines all revved up let's take a look at what happened with this Walkman project. What I refer to now as the Hot Rodded Sony Walkman, my new product. But I digress. I already have a relatively low mass headphone system. It consists of a Woo Audio WA6 SET headphone amp, an Oppo 103 player, Sennheiser 600 headphones, two power cords and a set of interconnects. The Oppo contains the aftermarket OPPOMOD Linear Power Supply with the massive toroidal transformer (and it's very large magnetic field). The Woo Audio amp contains three transformers. I am not counting the very heavy marble and ceramic stands I use to isolate both the amp and the Oppo since the mass of the stands can be counted with the mass of the building, NOT with the mass of the audio system. That would be like saying I have to count my own body mass when holding the Sony Walkman to calculate the total mass. But most of all I wish to bring to your attention the change in FORMAT from digital to analog. How does one separate out the lower mass, the absence of mass, from the absence of transformers, the absence of cabling, the absence of bog standard house power (don't you just love battery power?), the absence of RFI generating semiconductor chips, the absence of scattered laser light issues galore, the absence of out of round CDs??! So, here's what I propose - it's not really low mass that's the issue with the great sound of the Walkman but the absence of all the ills that befall CD playback in a typical system. So, while the mass is lower, much lower, for the Walkman project, the results have virtually nothing to do with MASS. And while we're praising the dynamic range of the Walkman shouldn't we also praise the coherence of the sound, the clarity and power and extension of the treble, the drive, detail, propulsive quality and power of the bass and the naturalness of the sound? The analog qualities we all admire and aspire to, no? So, in conclusion, I am comparing two systems, one the Hot Rodded Sony Walkman that uses magnetism for its very operation, I.e., the humble magnetic tape, the other that produces magnetism in its operation as an UNWANTED SIDE EFFECT, the toxic magnetic fields produced by the transformers and the toxic induced magnetic fields produced by all wires and cables in the system!! Hel-loo! Maybe we should name this Hot Rodded Sony Walkman project the Low Mag system, not the Low Mass system.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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name

Name it whatever you like. If you did the same thing to your headphone setup "I already have a relatively low mass headphone system" (you said) which weighs 10 times (or more) my in-room system, you would experience the same dynamic explosion.

michael green
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I call it Low Mag
michael green wrote:

Name it whatever you like. If you did the same thing to your headphone setup "I already have a relatively low mass headphone system" (you said) which weighs 10 times (or more) my in-room system, you would experience the same dynamic explosion.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

In your system no matter what you do, you can put them in another room, you cannot entirely get rid of transformers, wires, cables, capacitors, out of round CDs, scattered background laser light. That is why I do not suffer the myriad ills that CD playback entails with the Hot Rodded Sony Walkman. There is more to this than dynamics!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

michael green
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which do you like better

Which do you like better your new walkman reference or your former reference?

michael green
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geoffkait
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Huh?
michael green wrote:

Which do you like better your new walkman reference or your former reference?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I'm not sure you've been following me, but that's OK.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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my question

Hi Geoff my question was which one do you like better, or what are the differences your hearing between the two?

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geoffkait
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You asked me twice so I will answer twice. Fair enough?
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff my question was which one do you like better, or what are the differences your hearing between the two?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

From my post at around 9 am this morning:

"So, while the mass is lower, much lower, for the Walkman project, the results have virtually nothing to do with MASS. And while we're praising the dynamic range of the Walkman shouldn't we also praise the coherence of the sound, the clarity and power and extension of the treble, the drive, detail, propulsive quality and power of the bass and the naturalness of the sound? The analog qualities we all admire and aspire to, no? So, in conclusion, I am comparing two systems, one the Hot Rodded Sony Walkman that uses magnetism for its very operation, I.e., the humble magnetic tape, the other that produces magnetism in its operation as an UNWANTED SIDE EFFECT, the toxic magnetic fields produced by the transformers and the toxic induced magnetic fields produced by all wires and cables in the system!! Hel-loo! Maybe we should name this Hot Rodded Sony Walkman project the Low Mag system, not the Low Mass system."

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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thanks

Sorry Geoff, didn't know that was the answer. I wasn't able to tell which you liked better or the difference between the two, but it looks like your trying to say the tape is out doing the CD system.

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geoffkait
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Gosh
michael green wrote:

Sorry Geoff, didn't know that was the answer. I wasn't able to tell which you liked better or the difference between the two, but it looks like your trying to say the tape is out doing the CD system.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Gee, whiz, Michael, I thought I made that pretty clear. I guess I need to brush up on my enthusiasm. From my earlier post:

"And while we're praising the dynamic range of the Walkman shouldn't we also praise the coherence of the sound, the clarity and power and extension of the treble, the drive, detail, propulsive quality and power of the bass and the naturalness of the sound? The analog qualities we all admire and aspire to, no?"

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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analog

Hi Geoff

I've always looked at all sources as analog ones with magnetic, groove or reading being a function of storage. I thought it a bit of a mistake when tape and vinyl was lumped in as analog and laser being called digital. I see all three as number based, but that probably comes from sitting behind a mixer as much as being in the audiophile hobby. The hobby should be about getting as much as possible out of all the prefered ways of listening so I usually don't try to pit one against the others. I've constantly and pleasantly been surprised by how much music is on any of these types of storage. Seems like there's always more info waiting for us to find every time we reach a new listening level.

I went through the CD was a lesser source at first but that didn't last past me learning how to get more out of it. Same thing with tubes vs solid state. I at first thought tubes had it all over solid state till I learn the hows to open up these stages of the chain. Now I can make my tubes sound like solid state and vice versa.

Now, as with what you are doing with the portable thread, I look at mass and simple vs complicated and over done. No matter tape, vinyl or CD for myself the real issue is simple vs distortion. I'm enjoying the "portable thread" and have some other products for you to look at if you wanted to.

It may be too soon, but I would like to see what you did with a Magnavox 2100 or 2300, or even the FUNAI 100 players. These are very simply designed DVD Players that I like to use for sources. The Maggie is my favorite but the FUNAI is pretty hip as well. The Maggie slightly more body and the FUNAI leaning toward detail more. I would imagine that by tweaking these players you would find them smoking some if not most of the higher priced players out there.

michael green
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Tubes vs solid state
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

I've always looked at all sources as analog ones with magnetic, groove or reading being a function of storage. I thought it a bit of a mistake when tape and vinyl was lumped in as analog and laser being called digital. I see all three as number based, but that probably comes from sitting behind a mixer as much as being in the audiophile hobby. The hobby should be about getting as much as possible out of all the prefered ways of listening so I usually don't try to pit one against the others. I've constantly and pleasantly been surprised by how much music is on any of these types of storage. Seems like there's always more info waiting for us to find every time we reach a new listening level.

I went through the CD was a lesser source at first but that didn't last past me learning how to get more out of it. Same thing with tubes vs solid state. I at first thought tubes had it all over solid state till I learn the hows to open up these stages of the chain. Now I can make my tubes sound like solid state and vice versa.

Now, as with what you are doing with the portable thread, I look at mass and simple vs complicated and over done. No matter tape, vinyl or CD for myself the real issue is simple vs distortion. I'm enjoying the "portable thread" and have some other products for you to look at if you wanted to.

It may be too soon, but I would like to see what you did with a Magnavox 2100 or 2300, or even the FUNAI 100 players. These are very simply designed DVD Players that I like to use for sources. The Maggie is my favorite but the FUNAI is pretty hip as well. The Maggie slightly more body and the FUNAI leaning toward detail more. I would imagine that by tweaking these players you would find them smoking some if not most of the higher priced players out there.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Well, now that you mention it, the cassette player does sound an awful lot like tubes, but obviously it's not. Of course most of the stuff I tend to listen to was recorded with tubes, so that helps a lot. Listening to Jethro Tull Original Masters on cassette. Very tube like. Dynamic, extended, liquid, etc.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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I ask you readers?

"Sorry to be such a downer but you seem absolutely obsessed with soundstage. You know there is more to the music than soundstage, don't you? Besides, I already conceded soundstage superiority to speakers a long time ago, haven't you been paying attention?"

the above statement came from Geoff on a soundstage thread

Now I ask you readers, if someone makes a statement like the above one, why would he or she even be on a thread called "the audio code"? You can go read the thread and see what info I was giving on the soundstage, and also see how Geoff came in to flame and distract from the topic. I again put up a complaint to stereophile.

Why, if a Sony Walkman is his reference (you readers can look this up for yourselves on "do you want dynamics") would he even be on a High End Audiophile forum?

The whole idea of stereo is to create a soundstage, so why is this guy even here? Or should I say why are you letting this guy come up and make a mockery of your hobby?

It's really starting to blow my mind how you guys have let these people in. Really, don't you even care if the industry moves forward?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Discussion Forums vs Personal Blogs

You seem to want to simply blog about your audio thoughts rather than discuss and exchange ideas. This is a discussion forum. While you may dislike not being able to control the discussion and would prefer to use the forums as your personal blog site, that's not going to happen anywhere but your tuneland place.

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you really think so?

Hi Catch

You really think so? I don't see it that way at all. Forums are what you make them. There's a big difference between an exchange of ideas and internet games and if adults can't realize that and respect it they should go to places where low class is tolerated.

You see me as being controlling and others see me as being informative. You've taken your fair share of digs at me, and for what reason? You have no idea who I am other than a guy who introduces people to another way of listening. To say you don't understand or agree is one thing, but when you or anyone decides to not act like and adult, then this lowers the class dramatically.

Info forum communities and flame sites are completely two different things. Just because you have flamed me in the past, don't think this made you any more of a responsible adult Catch. What it made you is someone who hides behind a keyboard.

I come up here to get in no ones way but to share and invite. You want to flame, go somewhere else or as I said if this is nothing more than a low class flame site I'll go somewhere else and let people know what I saw here.

I guess I have always thought of Stereophile as a lot classier than what I am seeing, and am use to on other sites. If these sites have no class no wonder the hobby is dead and no wonder there are only a handful who post here. Have you ever thought about why Catch? Stereophile should be hopping and full of life, why isn't it catch?

You think flaming is acceptable, and I think it's nothing above disbehaving children.

Oh and BTW Catch, I am on 3 professional audio sites and have not been flamed once. Now how is it I can go on music sites and not be flamed but come to audiophile sites and see people posting who act like they need their diapers changed?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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but

While I'm stewing over the lack of etiquette here, maybe I'll just put links to my writtings instead of dealing with bad manors.

So Catch you might be on to something. Why should I lower my standards.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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for reference purposes

Hi geoff

As we move forward with your posting here will you be basing your comments on your Sony Walkman Tape player or do you have other systems that you will be using as test gear?

From reading it appears that you are now using the Sony Walkman tape player as your main source, and I want to be accurate as I read and make comments myself on your other threads as not to speak out of line.

thanks

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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At this point in time
michael green wrote:

Hi geoff

As we move forward with your posting here will you be basing your comments on your Sony Walkman Tape player or do you have other systems that you will be using as test gear?

From reading it appears that you are now using the Sony Walkman tape player as your main source, and I want to be accurate as I read and make comments myself on your other threads as not to speak out of line.

thanks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

At this point in time I'm using a Sony Walkman CD player, a Sport portable, also a Sony Car Discman CD player as well as a Sony Sport Walkman Cassette Player and last but not least a Sony Walkman Professional Cassette Player, the WM D3 with amorphous head. The only thing left of my Sennheiser/Woo Audio/Modded Oppo headphone system is a greasy spot. Earphones for all listening are vintage Sony Sport walkman MDR-W014.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina dynamica

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thanks

So now Geoff please don't get mad at me when I'm only letting people know what you are using and your comments about audio. These are your comments and your references to music as we speak.

I only wish to present what is in all fairness to you me and the readers.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
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Fairness

Michael, in reply to Geoff you said :-

>>> “I'm only letting people know what you are using and your comments about audio. These are your comments and your references to music as we speak.
I only wish to present what is in all fairness to you me and the readers.” <<<

No, Michael, I suspect you are not using that information for fairness, I suspect you are using Geoff’s comment as some form of concrete evidence that because he is NOW using the equipment he has listed, he cannot possibly have any experiences or knowledge existing from past experiences with past equipment.

For example. And to take it out of audio for a moment so that we don’t get into a slanging match again.

It is now some 30 years since I had physical experience of using an AGA (solid fuel) range cooker. Just because I am today using a modern gas cooker does not mean that I no longer have experience or knowledge to give to others who might, today, be using a similar AGA range cooker !!!! MY past experiences and MY past knowledge has not deserted me just because I have moved on to now using some other method of cooking.

Back to the world of audio. I am sure the same applies to Geoff – and I might add – to anyone else who has had experiences with past equipment, past wires, past recordings – and LEARNED a considerable amount from those experiences !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Those experiences do not go away – they ADD to other, later, experiences to gradually build up a considerable amount of knowledge !!!

You, yourself, have listed your past experiences, emphasising that they have added to your knowledge, but you don’t seem to want to extend the same acknowledgement to Geoff and to Geoff’s experiences and knowledge !!

People do not have to be actually doing TODAY, listening to the same thing TODAY to be allowed to take part in a current discussion about audio and about what can contribute to good sound !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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"In all fairness" I'm getting a bad feeling.
michael green wrote:

So now Geoff please don't get mad at me when I'm only letting people know what you are using and your comments about audio. These are your comments and your references to music as we speak.

I only wish to present what is in all fairness to you me and the readers.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ah, the new fair and honest Michael. Interesting. And much thanks for not putting words in my mouth. Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Actually May

Hi May, Merry Christmas!

Actually if you read through the threads I give an account of geoff's systems and his experience with them in quotes. I'm only looking to be accurate and fair to both you and geoff, or any other member.

please notice as I answer questions and make comments that I reference other threads on here so readers can read for themselves and come to their own conclusions. I don't think you can get much more fair than this.

with this statement

"People do not have to be actually doing TODAY, listening to the same thing TODAY to be allowed to take part in a current discussion about audio and about what can contribute to good sound !!"

My answer would have to be "I wouldn't know" never stopped listening and testing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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May, please take a listen

To the Sony Walkman that Geoff considers to be superior to any digital high-end system and tell us if he learned anything from his past experience? I do expect people to go from good to better to best (unless, of course, they are hit by financial problems). Now Geoff went from a loudspeaker-based system to a headphone system to a plastic walkman. Since you are a long time listener and music lover, can you vouch this means real progress?

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False blip on radar

No text

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Take a tip from Michael
iosiP wrote:

To the Sony Walkman that Geoff considers to be superior to any digital high-end system and tell us if he learned anything from his past experience? I do expect people to go from good to better to best (unless, of course, they are hit by financial problems). Now Geoff went from a loudspeaker-based system to a headphone system to a plastic walkman. Since you are a long time listener and music lover, can you vouch this means real progress?

I suggest you take a tip from Michael and set your sights on a fair and honest exchange of comments here and STOP putting words in my mouth. If your memory is shot I will be more than happy to repeat what I ACTUALLY said about how the Sony Walkman compares to my Ex digital headphone system. I also see no advantage for you to keep repeating what Michael already stated, I mean unless you wish to appear to be his Sockpuppet.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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“Real progress ?”

>>> “Now Geoff went from a loudspeaker-based system to a headphone system to a plastic walkman. Since you are a long time listener and music lover, can you vouch this means real progress?” <<<

I do not make judgements on other people’s actual audio equipment – especially as to whether THAT equipment is real progress over any other equipment. In exactly the same way as I would never make judgements on YOUR personal choice of audio equipment or whether YOU have made REAL progress with your choices !! That would be extremely arrogant of me !!!!!!!!!!!

What matters is how to get the best sound from WHATEVER equipment people have and whatever music they listen to !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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not so

"I do not make judgements on other people’s actual audio equipment – especially as to whether THAT equipment is real progress over any other equipment. In exactly the same way as I would never make judgements on YOUR personal choice of audio equipment or whether YOU have made REAL progress with your choices !! That would be extremely arrogant of me !!!!!!!!!!!"

So may, why are you even here? Are you calling Reviewers "arrogant"?

If you weren't making judgements you wouldn't be in the audio biz. The audio business is exactly about making judgements and referencing. Look at any audio magazine May or any forum. This whole thing is about jumping in and getting involve.

From the microphone choice and setup, and acoustical space, all the way to the ear is about making judgements. There's not a review on the planet, or listener that is not making judgements. Not an audiophile club in the world that isn't judging ones system against another. This whole thing May is about making judgements and helping raise the bar, and as a designer we are measured by our involvement and continual progress and practices.

What would happen if I walked into a client home or studio or hall and didn't make judgements? We are being paid to not only make those judgements but to also have the ability to say something more than "I know it makes a change, but that change is a mystery". I would have to catch the next bus home if I acted like that. I'm paid to know what that recording is and how to make it do what the client asks. And that goes way beyond any reviewer saying Wow that was better LOL. I have to go in and make real spacial moving changes, where there is no little mystery tweak. The guy sitting there could care less if he was moving his cymbals from back to front and I introduced him to something that squeezed the sound.

Where you and geoff are correct is, there is a lot of info on any recording, but you need to go a lot deeper than this if you are going to be dealing with an extreme listener May. You've got to be able to take his system apart and make it do what he wants and to be able to do it consistantly with all his music collection.

This is all about making judgements and knowing your music inside and out and there is nothing arrogant about it, it's job one and the people doing it should have their chops down before they start diving into someones system. It's insane to sell someone a one fix tweak and risking the client may go somewhere and never get back what they lost or be able to make variable changes. I have a host of treated CD's here including yours and geoff and can tell you that if that listener makes the "judgement" to apply those tweaks he'd better get a stock CD as well incase he wants to go back to the info he started with.

Heck, geoff is up here shooting his mouth about direction and doesn't even mention the most important part of the test, settling time before making a judgement. I'm sitting here doing exactly that in real time with a real system May, and can tell you that it takes well over 3 weeks for a fuse to settle once replaced or change of direction. It's not arrogant May, it's knowing your trade.There aren't mysteries May to those who actually are doing and making studies more involved than a reviewer playing plug and play. No offence to reviewers, but when you got guys out there setting amps on their shipping boxes while listening it's a little hard to take it serious for the extreme listeners. And hearing you and geoff come up and talk about stuff from a limited point of view, I hope you can understand why we who are actually doing the hobby get a little tired of the talk without the walk.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
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“Judgements”

>>> “So may, why are you even here? Are you calling Reviewers "arrogant"?< <<

Michael, I was doing NO SUCH calling !!!

Please, Michael. YET AGAIN - DO NOT put words (or intentions) into my mouth I do not or would never say.

I was telling iosiP that it would be arrogant of me to make a judgement on HIS (or anyone else’s) choice of equipment – a judgement, by me, on whether or not he had made REAL choices for progress !!!!!!!!!!

Reviewers do not make a public judgement on other (readers) choice of audio equipment. They make a judgement on the equipment presented for review. And, yes, they make a judgement when reporting on the sound from manufacturer’s demonstration rooms at Hi Fi Shows but those manufacturers have already made the decision to present their equipment for a public response.

>>> “And hearing you and geoff come up and talk about stuff from a limited point of view” <<<

A LIMITED point of view ??????????????????? You are really taking the biscuit here, Michael, with your dismissal of others experiences and knowledge as ‘limited’.

You really don’t know your audio history, do you ??????????

The word LIMITED you chose to use could not BE more opposite to reality !!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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so show us your system

So show us your system and take us around the block a few times.

Geoff has shown his Sony Walkman. As seen on geoff's thread http://www.stereophile.com/content/you-want-dynamics letting us audiophiles know that we can get the dynamics we want by getting a Sony Walkman portable cassette player. Sorry with stock plastic earphones.

Now maybe on his color the CD thread he will take the time to demo this for us with his according to him "lesser" reference, the Sony CD Walkman.

I'm sure all of us would like to here the improvements he comes up with, so when we go out and get our CD Walkman we to can have "better" sound.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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HOF
michael green wrote:

So show us your system and take us around the block a few times.

Geoff has shown his Sony Walkman. As seen on geoff's thread http://www.stereophile.com/content/you-want-dynamics letting us audiophiles know that we can get the dynamics we want by getting a Sony Walkman portable cassette player. Sorry with stock plastic earphones.

Now maybe on his color the CD thread he will take the time to demo this for us with his according to him "lesser" reference, the Sony CD Walkman.

I'm sure all of us would like to here the improvements he comes up with, so when we go out and get our CD Walkman we to can have "better" sound.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

You never responded to my question as to whether I was eligible for a Tunee Hall of Fame, you know, since I now hold the World record for low mass system, coming in at a whopping 10 ounces. I suspect that would probably explain the jealousy.

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. Old audiophile axiom

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do Artifical Atoms Right

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why be jealous?

Why be jealous, I can pick up a Sony Walkman on almost any used shopping site.

I didn't feel the need to repeat myself, but since you asked again.

When I went to my friends house who to me is a bit of an authority on home tape machines, his place looks like a throw back to the 70's, maybe even 60's but still cool, I did my listening to the Sony Walkman, a few of them. I reported on this a couple of times but your probably not reading the posts, and that's ok. Anyway I didn't like the sound of the stage being in my head with the walkman. The sound to me and him wasn't what we are personally hunting for. That didn't stop us from listening and experiementing on some stuff, but the questions that came up were, what do we do to adjust the tape alignment, and to get the sound to spread out more. We also weren't crazy about the way the ear plugs felt.

After all was said and done on two separate days, we didn't feel like this was a representation for high end audio listening. I like the fact that it was simple and low mass but it wasn't really on the same page with the bar we like to start at.

I'm all for low mass and simple, but in listening for me a product at least has to get out of the gate, and these units didn't do it for us. When he came over to my place to listen cause I just wanted to have my bases covered it was pretty telling right from the first couple of notes with the same music. BTW he will be puting in his tunable system this week I think. Don't know how he is going to empty out his spare room but I'm looking forward to see his new listening palace.

I do think though that the small portable idea is pretty cool but, for me at least, it needs to be something that I can float away with and not something that bores me after a few minutes. My main home headphone setup is very lush and spacious and can put me to sleep in no time flat, and for my headphone listening that's where I come from. If I'm going to do stage listening, I'm going to do it in one of the rooms, but even with headphones it's got to be out of my head. The Sony's were for sure not out of the head.

for a reference

Lately I've been using my TP-21 mod, my cherry front load headphones, mag 2300, picasso wiring. I guess if you threw it all on a scale it would be maybe 2.5-3 lbs, something like that. Since you've been posting on the Sony though I have been playing with the portables but nothing has held my attention for very long. I think some of it is I really don't like those earphones at all. I can have something cover my ears but something in them, nah not me. The last time I did a VH1 thing they had me wear one of those too, and I couldn't stand it.

I'm fussy about head or ear sets.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Apples and watermelons
michael green wrote:

Why be jealous, I can pick up a Sony Walkman on almost any used shopping site.

I didn't feel the need to repeat myself, but since you asked again.

When I went to my friends house who to me is a bit of an authority on home tape machines, his place looks like a throw back to the 70's, maybe even 60's but still cool, I did my listening to the Sony Walkman, a few of them. I reported on this a couple of times but your probably not reading the posts, and that's ok. Anyway I didn't like the sound of the stage being in my head with the walkman. The sound to me and him wasn't what we are personally hunting for. That didn't stop us from listening and experiementing on some stuff, but the questions that came up were, what do we do to adjust the tape alignment, and to get the sound to spread out more. We also weren't crazy about the way the ear plugs felt.

>>>>>>Actually, the vintage sony earphones I use are VERY comfortable and do not protrude into,the ear but rest just on the opening to the ear canal. They are very innocuous. And they have outstanding frequency response. They are much less fatiguing than say my Sennheisers which are known for comfort. There is also the issue with which Sony you listen to, since most I have here are nit all that. Only one or two has the frequency response and bass performance and smoothness I require. It's all about the purity of the sound, and coherence and dynamics. My player is also you know tweaked. Everything is tweaked, the earphones and of course the CDs. Your trying to replicate what I've got here is a tad silly. I did obtain a Philips Magnavox JOGPROOF portable CD player which I just got through tweaking and have to say it sounds pretty darn good. I'm listening to it as I type.

After all was said and done on two separate days, we didn't feel like this was a representation for high end audio listening. I like the fact that it was simple and low mass but it wasn't really on the same page with the bar we like to start at.

I'm all for low mass and simple, but in listening for me a product at least has to get out of the gate, and these units didn't do it for us. When he came over to my place to listen cause I just wanted to have my bases covered it was pretty telling right from the first couple of notes with the same music. BTW he will be puting in his tunable system this week I think. Don't know how he is going to empty out his spare room but I'm looking forward to see his new listening palace.

I do think though that the small portable idea is pretty cool but, for me at least, it needs to be something that I can float away with and not something that bores me after a few minutes. My main home headphone setup is very lush and spacious and can put me to sleep in no time flat, and for my headphone listening that's where I come from. If I'm going to do stage listening, I'm going to do it in one of the rooms, but even with headphones it's got to be out of my head. The Sony's were for sure not out of the head.

for a reference

Lately I've been using my TP-21 mod, my cherry front load headphones, mag 2300, picasso wiring. I guess if you threw it all on a scale it would be maybe 2.5-3 lbs, something like that. Since you've been posting on the Sony though I have been playing with the portables but nothing has held my attention for very long. I think some of it is I really don't like those earphones at all. I can have something cover my ears but something in them, nah not me. The last time I did a VH1 thing they had me wear one of those too, and I couldn't stand it.

I'm fussy about head or ear sets.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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in response to

geoff said

">>>>>>Actually, the vintage sony earphones I use are VERY comfortable and do not protrude into,the ear but rest just on the opening to the ear canal.

mg

yep, not for me, I like the full size phones much better, but that's a taste thing

goeff

They are very innocuous. And they have outstanding frequency response.

mg

we didn't get that

geoff

They are much less fatiguing than say my Sennheisers which are known for comfort.

mg

we found them to be pretty darn fatiguing

geoff

There is also the issue with which Sony you listen to, since most I have here are nit all that. Only one or two has the frequency response and bass performance and smoothness I require. It's all about the purity of the sound, and coherence and dynamics. My player is also you know tweaked. Everything is tweaked, the earphones and of course the CDs.

mg

we were listening to tape

geoff

Your trying to replicate what I've got here is a tad silly.

mg

we do a lot of referencing and try to be as accurate as possible

geoff

I did obtain a Philips Magnavox JOGPROOF portable CD player which I just got through tweaking and have to say it sounds pretty darn good. I'm listening to it as I type.

mg

The Phillips based players for myself, lean toward the body that I like over the Sony. That's probably not fair but has been my experience based on the ones I have listened to.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Sony vs Phillips

Hi geoff

Between the Sony Walkman cassette player and the Phillips CD player, which do you like better and why?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Surprise, surprise!
michael green wrote:

geoff said

">>>>>>Actually, the vintage sony earphones I use are VERY comfortable and do not protrude into,the ear but rest just on the opening to the ear canal.

mg

yep, not for me, I like the full size phones much better, but that's a taste thing

goeff

They are very innocuous. And they have outstanding frequency response.

mg

we didn't get that

geoff

They are much less fatiguing than say my Sennheisers which are known for comfort.

mg

we found them to be pretty darn fatiguing

geoff

There is also the issue with which Sony you listen to, since most I have here are nit all that. Only one or two has the frequency response and bass performance and smoothness I require. It's all about the purity of the sound, and coherence and dynamics. My player is also you know tweaked. Everything is tweaked, the earphones and of course the CDs.

mg

we were listening to tape

geoff

Your trying to replicate what I've got here is a tad silly.

mg

we do a lot of referencing and try to be as accurate as possible

geoff

I did obtain a Philips Magnavox JOGPROOF portable CD player which I just got through tweaking and have to say it sounds pretty darn good. I'm listening to it as I type.

mg

The Phillips based players for myself, lean toward the body that I like over the Sony. That's probably not fair but has been my experience based on the ones I have listened to.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

No surprises there. :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Sony vs Philips
michael green wrote:

Hi geoff

Between the Sony Walkman cassette player and the Phillips (sic) CD player, which do you like better and why?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Well, that's a kind of odd question. I think it's makes more sense to ask which one I prefer, the Sony Walkman CD player or the Philips Magnavox CD player. Those two sound quite similar, uh, smooth, detailed, full range, dynamic. Since I have already expressed my preference for the cassette player vs the portable Sony Walkman CD player many times, well, actually vs digital in general, I won't bore everyone with expressing them again.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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More info wrt CD players of the portable variety
michael green wrote:

Hi geoff

Between the Sony Walkman cassette player and the Phillips CD player, which do you like better and why?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Have been increasing the number and type of CD players these past few weeks and developing ways to modify and treat them. Some of the players I'm uh playing with include but are not limited to Sony (4 battery version) Car Discman, Sony Sport Walkman, Sony ESP Walkman, Panasonic ShockWave, Bose Portable CD Player, Magnavox JOGPROOF. Quite interesting how good these little dickens can sound with a little effort. They tend to sound rather generic and well, just plain plain. I have not abandonded treating CDs and am now using Essence of Music 2 step CD treatment as Liquid Resolution is no longer available. And a few other things.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Vibration control in very small systems - is this necessary?

Attempts to isolate or employ vibration control for a small portable CD player has practically no affect on the sound. Now, I suspect there are some reasons why this might be the case. One reason is the Walkman and Car Ready type players have *built-in vibration control * of one type or another, ESP or G Protection )Aiwa has a anti shock oil damper system, would you believe?) or whatever that probably comes into play even for relatively low amplitudes of vibration. Secondly, there just isn't that much to vibrate inside these tiny players. There are no circuit boards, no wires, no capacitors, no thin metal chassis, no fuse, etc. to resonate. So you won't have the same performance problems in the presence of seismic and other types of vibration that occur for full size CD players and electronics, especially problems in bass performance, micro dynamics, overall distortion and treble clarity and extension. There's just nothing much there to vibrate! Hel-loo! That's why these small portable CD players sound INHERENTLY dynamic, clear, natural sounding and full and tight in the bass frequencies.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Problems with definitions, Geoffy-boy?

There cannot be more dynamics than the SNR. What did you say the SNR of your walkman is?

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Pardon me?
iosiP wrote:

There cannot be more dynamics than the SNR. What did you say the SNR of your walkman is?

I'm not your boy, nimrod.

I bet you actually believe you're getting 90 dB Dynamic Range out of CDs. I bet you also believe you can get higher Dynamic Range on CD than is available on the analog tape it was recorded with.

Geoff Kait
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almost time!

Almost time for geoffy to get spanked but I want a few more folks to hear this first for themselves.

It's like we've been saying "it's all about the walk, not the talk".

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Huh?
michael green wrote:

Almost time for geoffy to get spanked but I want a few more folks to hear this first for themselves.

It's like we've been saying "it's all about the walk, not the talk".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Whatever are you going on about? Speaking of talking, I'm getting an uneasy feeling you just like to hear yourself talk.

I keep looking for Good Tuning Girls but I still don't see them. Are you squirreling them away?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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thanks geoff

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
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No problem, Michael
michael green wrote:

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Thanks for watering the shrubs.

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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?

How's that Sony Walkman cassette player holding up?

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Sony Walkman cassette player, is it still holding up?
michael green wrote:

How's that Sony Walkman cassette player holding up?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

How's it holding up? Well, it hasn't broken yet, if that's what you mean. If you mean does it still sound sweeter than CDs, yes it does. If you mean does it still sound more natural and more alive than CDs, yes, that too. If you mean does the Sony Walkman cassette player still sound like the original master recording, yes that too. Can you hear the tape hiss from the original master tape? Most assuredly, unlike CDs. Does it make the sound of CDs - comparatively speaking - congealed, bland, pitch incorrect, rolled off in the treble, airless, dry, metallic and thin? Definitely. Do sopranos rip your ears off - as on CDs? Well, frankly, no. Does the Sony Walkman keep you coming back for more (unlike CDs)? Absolutely. It's the difference between listening to music and listening to noise.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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one sound systems

If you have been spending time reading as of late you will see we have shown that the audio world is indeed variable. Which brings us back to some of the comments made only a year ago or less. Comments about one thing sounding better than another.

The hobbyist should be asking of these people at this point. If someone only has a system with "one fixed" sound how can they determine if Tape is better than CD's or the opposite? Plus, what if a listener desires to change the sound of the song other than what this "fixed sound" they have, dictates?

In this hobby we have all heard how one recording sounds different in character than the next. Anyone who says this is not the case is more than likely not even in this hobby. So if someone is listening to one sound, and all recordings sound different what are the choices this listener has to make the changes they desire?

With a portable cassette player for example, the back pad pressure is slightly different (on the cassette itself) as they come from the factory. How does one make the necessary adjustment to correct this problem, such as some of the other designs have done? We noticed with our walkman's that every tape as they went into the player had varying feels, some more tight than others. If you look at the construction of the cassette tapes you can see that not only is the casing different but so it the tape itself as you go from brand to brand. How does the player adjust to this?

Another factor that was brought to my attention when I visited my friend not long ago, was if you pay attention and play a bit of the tape, take it out of the player, put another cassette in and do the same removing it, then go back to the original tape, on these players they will sound slightly different.

And what about the beginning to end factor? We noticed when comparing the portable players with the deck types that there is a bigger difference from one end of the tape to the other. The portables sounded a great deal different through the play through whereas the decks not as bad and the R2R .25" was better yet.

the battery types

Another change in sound took place with the types of batteries, also the evolution of battery types. Maybe this is something geoff would address for us. We certainly heard a difference with different batteries.

And finally. We did mechanical transfer testing and found that depending on what the portables are sitting on (even the sport models) the sound changed. Set the unit on a pillow and play it and it will sound different from setting it on a wood table.

One "fixed" sound? Maybe we should do more testing and less talking.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Have you had your hearing checked recently?

Michael wrote,

"With a portable cassette player for example, the back pad pressure is slightly different (on the cassette itself) as they come from the factory. How does one make the necessary adjustment to correct this problem, such as some of the other designs have done? We noticed with our walkman's that every tape as they went into the player had varying feels, some more tight than others. If you look at the construction of the cassette tapes you can see that not only is the casing different but so it the tape itself as you go from brand to brand. How does the player adjust to this?"

Of course anyone can point to lots of supposedly "deal killers" in any audio medium, from the difficulty in setting up tonearm geometry to the archaic way a stylus traverses the grooves in a record to the out of round condition of CDs and the retarded way the laser servo system works to all sorts of issues with house AC to warped records to the little felt pad falling completely off after sitting there for twenty years. Potential problems such as tape alignment and the pad falling completely off (it can be easily Re-mounted) notwithstanding the sound of cassette on a player such as a Sony Walkman is INHERENTLY musical - dynamic, sweet and warm and detailed. There is simply more to admire with cassettes. Unless you're deaf of course, which I'm suspecting might actually be the case.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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