You are here

Log in or register to post comments
geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Temper tantrum?

Michael, I think I just witnessed a temper tantrum. In addition, and correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it looks like you just did a complete 180 on the subject of isolation. Quick, notify Toledo! Make up your mind, already. Either there is no such thing as isolation as you having been jumping up and down and yelling at the top of your lungs or you are kept abreast of all the latest isolation techniques from NASA and "the industry." Which one is it? Your use of the term energy dissipation is an interesting one, both acknowledging isolation and trying to call it something else at the same time. I.e., a deft semantics ploy. ;-). As for most of the rest of your diatribe I encourage you to save the drama for yo mama. I am not impressed by number of systems you had in the show, the number of years you have before the mast or any other supposedly meaningful numbers you might wish to throw out there. All you need is one system that was the best that industry insiders ever heard. You can forget about all the rest of them.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Answering Michael.

>>> “They by not walking through their systems while making their comments about the "thousands" they have is looking suspicious.” <<<

I personally DO NOT claim that WE have thousands. Again, please don’t put words I didn’t say into my mouth. I don’t do it with you. I say that there are thousands of people -worldwide, who have tried and found many of the (other people’s) as well as ours various tweaks referred to over these past 30 years, give similar improvements in THEIR sound as others have reported.

I don’t think what I say is incorrect. People worldwide trying the ‘freezing’ technique (including cryogenic freezing). People worldwide trying the ‘colouring the edge of CDs” technique. People trying applying a chemical to the label side of CDs and to the labels of LPs – and to the outer plastic insulation of cables. A pad impregnated with the Nordost ECO 3 chemical was stuck on the front cover of a MANY THOUSAND issue of a UK Hi Fi magazine a few years back. People worldwide demagnetising. People worldwide trying directional fuses. And so on. FAR more like thousands worldwide than just hundreds !!!!

>>> “I didn't know that this Randi guy was brought into things because May and Geoff are under and have been under scrutiny for many years. “ <<<

You mean YOU haven’t had the e-mail from Randi, Michael ? I thought that Randi invited anyone who claimed to hear ‘changes in the sound’ to take up their 1 million dollar challenge ! Have patience – it will come eventually as it did with Michael Fremer !!

Read Michael Fremer’s involvement with Randi when he claimed to be able to hear differences in the sound of different cables.

>>> “They have been in the "snakeoil" defending business for a long time. I think, and I may be wrong, this is why they find it hard to see us as friends. It's sad to me to see this and even be a part of it, but I feel it's important to share tuning, so this will need to be a cross to bear that I'm hoping will someday stop.” <<<

It is sad to ME, Michael, to see you reverting to the usual “snake oil” comment. My challenging you has nothing to do with me not wanting to be friends with you. You have reverted to the usual “double” version in a single sentence. I.e The desire to bring in the reference to “snake oil” associated with us – and then follow it by the disclaimer “I may be wrong”. Surely, common courtesy states that if you MAY be WRONG, then don’t broach things in the first place.

>>> “So what they do is try to paint the picture of anyone who is free from the chains of closed mindedness as someone who is a threat to convention. They practice their own form of wichcraft, claiming to save the world and they don't realize the world is already saved.”<<<

That was an amazing paragraph, even from you Michael. You are at it again. You were thinking - Let’s throw the word “witchcraft” around as though it has any meaning in the world of audio !!! Are you actually claiming that YOU are in the “free from the chains of closed mindedness” camp ? With your “vibrations are everywhere” and that what you are dealing with your ‘tuning’ techniques are “vibrations” !!

Are the “tons of things you can do to the passive video player” (your words) :-

>>> “there are tons, literally tons, of ways to make it change the sound of the system.” <<<

All ‘dealing with vibrations’, dealing with the SIGNAL are they ?

I repeat again what I have said repeatedly. I do NOT challenge that you can change the sound by doing your ‘tuning’ techniques.

I have no problem at all with you informing people on how to apply your ‘tuning’ techniques. As I am sure you have no problem at all in me informing people on how to apply small strips of our Rainbow Foil. But I am absolutely sure that if I had ever described placing a small strip of our Rainbow Foil on a PASSIVE video player, sitting on a shelf in the room, to improve the sound, and THEN stated that the PASSIVE video player was “part of the signal”, I would have been hauled over the proverbial “hot coals” or have the “cat o’ nine tails’ applied.

>>> “My goal is to get rid of the spins and see who May and Geoff are, the systems they use” <<<

It would not help you one iota knowing which audio system we were using in 1981 when we discovered A, what system we were using in 1985 when we discovered B, what system we were using in 1991 when we discovered C………………………………….. through to today. !!! It is what can affect the sound of DIFFERENT systems, throughout the world. It is WHICH or How Many of our discoveries can help other different people, listening to different music, through different systems, in different listening environments, in different countries.

And then, in addition which descriptions of the DIFFERENT Hi Fi systems of retailers and reviewers over many decades would you THINK would be of help to you ???

Regards,
May Belt
PWB Electronics.

toledo
toledo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: May 12 2014 - 1:50pm
Poor keyboards

We have been doing this back and forth now for months. Enough of the wordsmithing... Let's see the systems and how you use your techniques and how you voice your systems.

Where are your customers that use these techniques...maybe they can lend a hand here.

Maybe it is time to go our separate ways. You guys can discuss your things on your own threads.

Me thinks you don't want this ... you wouldn't get the exposure you are after.

If you want to discuss your products and ideas .. Let's do so, but in the context of actual use in systems and in listening terms ... not in terms of old reviews or vague generalities.

Where's the transparency guys .. You can go to tuneland and all is laid out, plain as day, for all to see and discuss. We encourage discussion and want to discuss our systems and techniques to get feedback and share.

You do notice that not too many others participate on these threads. They are waiting for something to actually discuss.

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Replying to Michael

>>> “I have news for you two, there are major brains out there that work together and feed off of each other that is far bigger than this little piece of the pie you guys are living in.” <<<

Wow. And you say you don’t do the “ego” thing !!!!

>>> “we will be coming to the same conclusions. Tuning is the answer. If you haven't than you'll keep doing your spins and trying to distract people from actually listening.” <<<

And the reason why I keep challenging you is because “Tuning” is not the WHOLE answer. Only some of the answer !!

You also say that “vibrations are everywhere” and therefore you are ‘dealing’ with vibrations.

Again this is the reason why I keep challenging you. SOME problems can be caused by vibrations, yes. But again, that is only SOME of the answer.

For example. You say you “demag”. So, if you demag an LP and gain the HUGE improvements such as Michael Fremer describes (or demag CDs), are you ‘dealing with vibrations’ ? If you “demag” a cable, and change the sound, are you ‘dealing with vibrations’ ?

Another example. If you apply a chemical to the label side of CDs and to the labels of LPs and hear changes in the sound, are you ‘dealing with vibrations’? Or if you apply a chemical to the outer plastic insulation of cables and hear changes in the sound, are you ‘dealing with vibrations’?

Another example. You say you have heard the effect of colouring the edge of CDs but did not like the sound colouring produced. Whether the sound heard was better or worse, conventionally it should NOT have changed the sound of the CD in any way !! But it DOES – whether you like the sound or don’t like it. So, is the colouring ‘dealing with vibrations’ ?

If not ‘vibrations’ then WHAT is being affected ?

Are you saying that you ‘demag’ some things but not others ? That would be what you refer to as ‘variable’. But, once ‘demagnetised’ then that process is fixed. Or are you suggesting that you ‘demag’ for Dvorak’s New World but ‘UNdemag’ (yes, I know there isn’t such a word) for Beethoven’s 5th ? i.e. Variable !!!

You call it “tuning”, I call it “opening up the sound”. But your words of “vibrations are everywhere” are used regularly, so you must think you are ‘dealing with vibrations’ most of the time !!

>>> “You guys keep quoting the same reviews and references. You need new material.” <<<

Stereophile’s was the latest of NUMEROUS reviews, spanning over 30 years. Numerous ones in the UK (at the time when Hi Fi magazines were in printed form and not available to read ‘on line’). Others (again in print form) in Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Danish Hi Fi Magazines !!!!! The reviews in the later (Internet) audio magazines have links to them on our Home Page !!!!!!!!!!!

>>> “What’s even more strange to me is why you or May would come on Stereophile to try to one up me or anyone like me, with my background and reputation and associations. I can see people like Catch questioning me cause he really doesn't know me or what I do, or Costin cause of his knowledge, or Bill and Dan because of their journey, but you and May?” <<<

I have told you why I question/challenge you.

Yes, you have found that you can change the sound in numerous ways. What you refer to as ‘tuning’. I do not doubt, in any way, that you can do very many different things nd gain improvements in the sound !!

But NOT everything which changes the sound can be explained within the categories of “It must be” :-

(1) ‘Dealing with the audio signal travelling through the audio system’
(2) ‘Dealing with vibrations’.
(3) ‘Dealing with the acoustic air pressure waves and vibrations’.

If it was/is so, then such as John Atkinson would never have to state :-

>>> “There are things that boggle my mind in High End audio. There are things that I would like to think I understand (from a technical and engineering point of view) and then something happens which literally blows my mind and it doesn’t fit the world view. “ <<<

Or such as John Curl say :-

>>> “or using superior passive components, such as bypass caps, wire, and connectors. It works. Why it works, as an engineer is just as much a mystery to me, as it is to many others.” <<<

People with a wealth of skill in audio. But yet are saying “Why it works is a mystery to them as it is to others”.
When will it become obvious to you that ALL is not known !!

But I have not seen one comment by you that you have been ‘stumped’ why something has changed the sound and you don’t have an explanation for.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
What we have here is failure to communicate

Toledo wrote,

"If you want to discuss your products and ideas .. Let's do so, but in the context of actual use in systems and in listening terms ... not in terms of old reviews or vague generalities."

This forum is for discussion, no? Yet you refuse to join in the discussion. I have answered your questions but all I ever get is this bitter old scold routine. Yes, I realize you're just trying help out your fearless leader with some pablum until he awakes, but, geez, get real. If you don't have anything to say, and I certainly gave you a ton of things to get things rolling then by all means go haunt another thread. I'm not trying to set the world on fire, I just want to start a flame in a few hearts. I don't want to beat somebody over the head with a hammer. What good would that do? Most folks ought to have to have some level of curiosity and interest in order to take part in a discussion. All you ever want to do is paddle my behind. If I have to go over to TuneLand to discuss things then I'm out.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
toledo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: May 12 2014 - 1:50pm
Those were answers?

Geoff,

No real answers were provided ... simple references to materials and now more deflection and dismissive tactics and trying to make this about me and others.

Actually I wasn't really asking for answers .. Trying to start a constructive dialog.

I listed the things you have repeatedly presented to the forum (in very summarized format) to get the ball rolling. What might I do to actually get you to open up and discuss these things in terms of how you use them in your reference system and how you voice your system. It is up to you to provide this and not expect others to drag it out of you.

You expect people to have curiosity about your products and leave it at that? What they want to know Is what do these things do and how you use them and what improvements they will provide to their listening.

They want to know how the myriad of techniques you use can be combined to accomplish what they need .. an overall systems methodology like Tuning is. Thats your job.

Marketing 101 my friend.

As far as someone waking up.. Perhaps someone is busy, you know, running a successful business with tens of thousands of customers and not waiting by his keyboard to respond to your antics.

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
Elusion and delusion are Geoff's TM

1. I could find at least a dozen reasons why taking a case apart and rearranging internal components may influence the sound.
2. I cannot think of one reason why writing mantras on my wife's bedroom mirror can influence the sound.

Now guess who has the burden of proof (and I mean proof, not anecdotal listening testimonies)?

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Demands for proof are just plain silly

Speaking for myself I'm not terribly surprised when someone who says he is a PhD but who doesn't know the difference between a magnetic field and an electric field believes that the manufacturer or claimant is under some sort of burden of proof. You must be unfamiliar with third party independent verification and validation. You are also apparently unfamiliar with the distinctions between substantial proof, proof beyond a reasonable doubt and preponderance of the evidence. The fact that you, in particular, can't think of a reason why writing messages can influence the sound just might be sufficient evidence for some folks to think that there actually might be something to it.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
Snake oil & other stuff

May & Geoff

I think that showing us your systems and talking about them and your music and how you influence it is exactly what people want to see. Your words, at least on here, are not connecting.

May, when I looked up the threads and articles on you guys this is when I saw those terms "snakeoil" and whatever being used so don't come back on me for doing my research on you, take it up with them please.

Geoff, sorry you felt I was throwing a tantrum. I just don't want people to associate me with someone who is spreading BS. Sometimes childred need spanked an honestly this is what I'm seeing from the both of you. I have not seen so many spins in a long time.

Costin, from what I'm seeing on these threads you are smoking Geoff. As someone in the industry I apologize for his actions. We're not all that way. We all have our gifts and talents, but some of these folks are a little out there and over the top, as you can read.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
I know you are but what am I?
michael green wrote:

May & Geoff

I think that showing us your systems and talking about them and your music and how you influence it is exactly what people want to see. Your words, at least on here, are not connecting.

May, when I looked up the threads and articles on you guys this is when I saw those terms being used so don't come back on me for doing my research on you, take it up with them please.

Geoff, sorry you felt I was throwing a tantrum. I just don't want people to associate me with someone who is spreading BS. Sometimes childred need spanked an honestly this is what I'm seeing from the both of you. I have not seen so many spins in a long time.

Costin, from what I'm seeing on these threads you are smoking Geoff. As someone in the industry I apologize for his actions. We're not all that way. We all have our gifts and talents, but some of these folks are a little out there and over the top, as you can read.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Just so there's no misunderstanding, you are the king of BS from where I sit. I figured you out as soon as you opened your mouth. I take it all into account. Don't worry, it's no big deal.

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but that meeting by the river is most likely going to be put on hold.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
The number a game, Whoopie!
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

No real answers were provided ... simple references to materials and now more deflection and dismissive tactics and trying to make this about me and others.

Actually I wasn't really asking for answers .. Trying to start a constructive dialog.

I listed the things you have repeatedly presented to the forum (in very summarized format) to get the ball rolling. What might I do to actually get you to open up and discuss these things in terms of how you use them in your reference system and how you voice your system. It is up to you to provide this and not expect others to drag it out of you.

You expect people to have curiosity about your products and leave it at that? What they want to know Is what do these things do and how you use them and what improvements they will provide to their listening.

They want to know how the myriad of techniques you use can be combined to accomplish what they need .. an overall systems methodology like Tuning is. Thats your job.

Marketing 101 my friend.

As far as someone waking up.. Perhaps someone is busy, you know, running a successful business with tens of thousands of customers and not waiting by his keyboard to respond to your antics.

Tens of thousands of customers? Are you sure? I'm almost positive Bose has a lot more than that.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Online
Last seen: 14 min 16 sec ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Spin, spin, spin...

Geoff, you're one frustrating dude to read...

Geoff= words

Michael= tuning

Geoff= more words

Michael= listening

Geoff= more and more words

Michael= sharing

Geoff= many more words

Michael= working with listeners and professionals setting up tuning systems all over the world

Geoff= no words!

There's a pattern here that everyone else sees except you.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
BINGO X 2 again

Toledo said

We have been doing this back and forth now for months. Enough of the wordsmithing... Let's see the systems and how you use your techniques and how you voice your systems.

Where are your customers that use these techniques...maybe they can lend a hand here.

Maybe it is time to go our separate ways. You guys can discuss your things on your own threads.

Me thinks you don't want this ... you wouldn't get the exposure you are after.

If you want to discuss your products and ideas .. Let's do so, but in the context of actual use in systems and in listening terms ... not in terms of old reviews or vague generalities.

Where's the transparency guys .. You can go to tuneland and all is laid out, plain as day, for all to see and discuss. We encourage discussion and want to discuss our systems and techniques to get feedback and share.

You do notice that not too many others participate on these threads. They are waiting for something to actually discuss.
_____________________________________

The spins are getting old, and it's time to see some systems or get out of the way of active listeners.

Know what I did today?

I spent my day referencing a system with a Tunable Room and system client. We "over the phone" walked through his system and I showed him how harmonics aligned in real time without being there and using his ears with his system. We moved the soundstage, changed the tonal balance, and even went as far as to go from him hearing the music to feeling it. I'm sure he will be reporting on TuneLand about this and others will be able to ask how, or will share how they did the same types of things with the tools.

My question to May & Geoff that never gets answered is "what is , and how do you do this with your system". Today I took the crickets on Abbey Road and showed him how to move the crickets in and out of the room on track ten. I showed him how to increase or decrease the volume of his system without touching the volume control. I showed him how to variably squeeze the harmonics or open them up. I showed him how to go through varied changes and not "fixed" jumps.

May and Geoff, let us see your systems and see you do this. You act like you are at the same level well lets get down to it and off the talk. Come on guys get in the ring with me or someone who is actually doing and lets see what you got. Oh, I forgot Geoff doesn't have a in-room system, and May talks about once owning systems.

Come on Boys and Girls lets play! Let's compare making changes and how I got there and how you did. I'm tired of May being my spelling teacher, get in the ring May. And I'm tired of Geoff parading his goat around, let's get in the ring Geoff.

I believe I just took my glove off and smacked the both of you in the face :)

I think all of us reading this would like both or either one of you to go up against me in a real time audio reference. I'll put on a piece of music and make a change and share how, and you guys do the same thing and share how you did it.

"rubber meets the road time"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
BINGO X 3

ChrisS said

Geoff, you're one frustrating dude to read...

Geoff= words

Michael= tuning

Geoff= more words

Michael= listening

Geoff= more and more words

Michael= sharing

Geoff= many more words

Michael= working with listeners and professionals setting up tuning systems all over the world

Geoff= no words!

There's a pattern here that everyone else sees except you.
____________________________________________

OK, May and Geoff let's get with it!

Let's see these systems and do some listening. Let's show the audiophile world what we have or don't have!

Geoff you want to spread around the industry that I'm BS, let's get with it and let them all see where the BS is.

If what I'm doing is BS then I think we all deserve this to be put to the test. While we're at it and since we are on Stereophile let me invite any designer, reviewer or hobbyist that doubts the tune to put this to the test. Let's compare systems and you show me how you make variable changes and I'll show you. The only way to truly find out is to do right? Let's do! I personally think that it would be good to finally separate the talkers and the walkers, the takers and the givers.

Let's have a listen-a-thon.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune :)

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
The reason few are participating in the thread

With the exception of May, the egos in this thread don't leave enough room for any reasonable person to be willing to participate in the discussion. It's not the arguing and bickering, it's not even the semantics of language and the use of ordinary understandings of words being distorted from their meanings. It's the overwhelming dominance of narcissism that makes any useful discussion impossible.

Other than that, this is a fun train wreck to watch unfold.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
egos, attitude and confidence

Honestly Catch, I hardly see any post or threads on this forum without a lot of ego going on. I think this goes further than ego. This goes to the heart of this very hobby.

It has always been about listening, and that's the way it needs to stay. If some see this as ego, I wonder why they are even in the hobby.

I look at it this way Catch, it's only ego till you get to the other side of learning. There's nothing wrong with levels of listening and being confident once you reach a level. That's a natural part of life. However if you do reach a level you must be ready and able to show it and welcome people to come hear for themselves. In this hobby there are those who aren't practicing listeners, and yet say they have this magic without the demo of their own system as proof. These people will lead with their ego, and attitude but not enough belief in their own products or designs to let you into their listening habbits and system.

To be a great designer of anything you have to stay on top, and practice your skill. You also have to be transparent, and be willing to show your goods more than talk about them.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
Michael, let's start with the beginning

For me, the first idea of tuning started when I replaced the tweeters in my speakers. Initally I did not screw them hard to allow for easy dismounting if I misconnected them. All was OK so I just decided to affix them permanently, applying the necessary torque to my screwdriver. And this is when all got wrong: the nice, airy sound of my ribbon tweeters got contracted, everything collapsed and went into the "mucho resolution but no music" area.
Then I figured out that since every driver has its own plate I could just try to voice the speakers by adjusting the tension of the screws. Guess what - it worked! The problem is I would not adjust 40 screws for each and every CD I spin or I would spend more time screwing (oops, I did not mean it to sound like this) than listening.
So yes, I know that tuning works and I would like to try some more, except for gutting my system (as mentioned before, there is no way to have a dedicated listening room with 230V-carrying wires exposed).
As for the specially endowed pens, "mine >> yours" messages and electret cream (apply blue, then the stripe, then green, then use flashlight, so your amoeba brain will feel just cuddly) I'm sure they work... but only for people with amoeba brains.

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Reply to Michael.

>>> “and lets see what you got. Oh, I forgot Geoff doesn't have a in-room system, and May talks about once owning systems.” <<<

You are at it again, Michael. Putting words into my mouth which I never said i.e that I ONCE owned systems (implying that I don’t now) !! I actually said :-

>>> “It would not help you one iota knowing which audio system we were using in 1981 when we discovered A, what system we were using in 1985 when we discovered B, what system we were using in 1991 when we discovered C………………………………….. through to today. !!! “ <<<

Or maybe the system we had in the mid 1990s during the time we discovered that ‘things’ in another room had an effect on the ‘sound/music’ we were listening to ? Or, maybe Jimmy Hughes’ – a UK reviewer and journalist - completely DIFFERENT system when we demonstrated to him exactly the effect. How would knowing that be of any help at all to you ? Ditto today’s system.

>>> “Come on Boys and Girls lets play! Let's compare making changes and how I got there and how you did. I'm tired of May being my spelling teacher, get in the ring May.” <<<

>>> “I believe I just took my glove off and smacked the both of you in the face :)” <<<
I don’t DO playground jousting !!

Let me make myself absolutely, absolutely clear.

I believe that you Michael have discovered, by listening (and not from the conventional audio and acoustic text books) that you can change the sound by ‘doing this, and doing that, and doing that, and doing that’. I have no doubts about that and I have never criticised or challenged you in any way about that !!!

What you have discovered is, yes, contrary to what a lot of the audio industry believes. And, that is why it makes it extremely interesting. To discover things like that over and above the general belief structure !!

The audio industry, in general, believe that if they do what is necessary from a technical point of view and from a room acoustic point of view, then people WILL hear all the musical information which is on the disc (source). One has only to observe what happens at Hi Fi Shows to realise that this is the way the majority of them think (and act). I.e that so many manufacturers/distributors demonstration rooms have poor, if not sometimes, appalling sound !! From well made, well engineered.Hi Fi equipment.

You, me and Geoff (to name but a few) KNOW that there is a wealth of information (musical information) which people are not hearing (what I call resolving correctly) until they do certain things. Now, you say that you prefer to be doing ‘variable’ tuning. Again, I have no problem with your preference but you then follow that by criticising (dismissing/downgrading) what you refer to as ‘fixed’ techniques.

You say you have no problems if some people want to use so called ‘fixed’ techniques but that they are not for you. Fine. Don’t do ‘fixed’ things but don’t “knock” other’s fixed things.

But what I want to do is to describe general reality – what happens in most situations and why I keep referring to various ‘fixed’ techniques, although many of the things you describe as ‘fixed’ are not things ‘fixed’ to the fixtures and fittings permanently but are introduced, positioned, and left in place when the best position (for the sound) is decided – to reference one such device as an example. The tiny ART devices.

What I was saying about the audio industry in general is shown by the (mainly hostile) reaction to the reports of those tiny ART devices. After Jason Victor Serinus (a contributor to Stereophile) reported from Hi Fi Show how the position of some ART devices in a manufacturers demonstration room at a Hi Fi show greatly improved the sound, after John Atkinson also commented on the beneficial effect of these devices to the sound, after Paul Messenger also commented likewise, saying “My brain told me one thing but my ears told me something different”, the reaction to such comments created a heated and quite (at times) hostile discussion on the Stereophile Forum which ran for over 39 pages – until Stereophile had to halt the discussion because of the hostility.

These tiny devices are things which one brings into the room, position them in the best position for the sound of that room, then leave them in position. What you Michael call “fixed” devices or techniques. But, they give an improvement in the sound !!! In the room. So their effect cannot be ignored. – either in general or in discussions.

Now Michael, you say that you have ‘done’ over a hundred ‘rooms’ at Hi Fi Shows. Presumably with your ‘variable’ tuning techniques. So, does that mean that you have gone in to a particular room, during set up day, done your ‘tuning’ techniques, shown the manufacturer how to do more if they want to during the 3 or 4 days of the Show and then left ? Leaving them to do certain ‘tuning’ techniques if they want to play Dvorak’s New World in the morning but to do different ‘tuning’ techniques if they want to play Beethoven’s 5th in the afternoon, or if they want to bring to the fore the magnificent organ in Saint Seans (sorry, can’t spell it). Or does it mean that you have done all things necessary during set up day – and then stayed around each and every day, going from one to another of the hundred or more rooms regularly, to ‘tune’ things to which particular recording they are playing at that time ?

I am applying logic here. I would guess that the manufacturer, distributor, sales people would not want to be getting up during, after or at the beginning of each recording to do variable ‘tuning’ techniques. That they would very much like something – what you call a ‘fixed’ technique to give them an overall improvement.

I would now add that the general public (general listeners to Hi Fi) are not that much different.

Now I come to the viewpoint where both concepts meet. That one can (say) introduce techniques such as the tiny ART devices into the listening room but YET continue to do many, many other ‘tuning’ techniques to get even better results. As many as anyone wishes to get involved in doing. Because in hearing/resolving more and more of the musical information available, there ARE numerous things one can do !!! The journey, in my opinion, will never end. There IS so much more musical information available than people have ever realised – even your ardent ‘tunees’ !!!

>>> “I think all of us reading this would like both or either one of you to go up against me in a real time audio reference. I'll put on a piece of music and make a change and share how, and you guys do the same thing and share how you did it.” <<<

I think you are missing logic again, Michael. You are so hell bent on doing a “shoot out at the OK coral”. It is NOT about what improvement in the sound THREE people (you, me and Geoff) might or might not hear, through whatever different equipment they/we might be listening to at THAT particular time, in whatever listening environment they/we might be listening in, it is about how everyone’s techniques (many more than the ones I have even listed which have been introduced into the audio world over these last 30 years) can benefit the thousands of people listening to DIFFERENT music, through DIFFERENT equipment, listening in DIFFERENT environments, in DIFFERENT countries !!

I know you will say that this is exactly YOUR aim in introducing people to your ‘tuning’ techniques. What I have been challenging all along is your insistence that “tuning” is THE answer. It is ONE answer, Michael !!

>>> “You also have to be transparent, and be willing to show your goods more than talk about them.”<<<

And when have you, Michael, been prepared to do more than 35,000 free samples of one of YOUR products to be attached to the front cover of a Hi Fi magazine , for anyone to try for themselves ??????????

Know your audio history first Michael before you lecture others about being ‘transparent’.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Hello Costin,

Hello Costin,

>>> “All was OK so I just decided to affix them permanently, applying the necessary torque to my screwdriver. And this is when all got wrong: the nice, airy sound of my ribbon tweeters got contracted, everything collapsed and went into the "mucho resolution but no music" area.” <<<

You were adjusting the tension of the screws and the sound went wrong. Do you know WHY it went wrong ?

>>> “The problem is I would not adjust 40 screws for each and every CD I spin or I would spend more time screwing (oops, I did not mean it to sound like this) than listening.” <<<

This is the basic point I have been trying to make. That ‘generally’ people don’t want to be (as you describe) adjusting 40 screws for each and every CD you spin – even though it MIGHT give you specific musical enjoyment every time !!!!

Why don’t you try a ‘free’ suggestion. Aligning all screws so that the slot in the screw head is parallel to the earth’s surface. Try it with one, Costin. If it gives you an improvement in the sound, then gradually align the other screws and then leave them !!!!!

>>> “So yes, I know that tuning works and I would like to try some more, except for gutting my system (as mentioned before, there is no way to have a dedicated listening room with 230V-carrying wires exposed).” <<<

Again, the basic point I have been trying to make.

>>> “As for the specially endowed pens, "mine >> yours" messages and electret cream (apply blue, then the stripe, then green, then use flashlight, so your amoeba brain will feel just cuddly) I'm sure they work... but only for people with amoeba brains.” <<<

Continue to have fun !!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Free tweak

What you need for this tweak is one sheet 81/2 x 11 of 3M AB5100S RFI/EMI absorbing material. The adhesive backed material is easily cut into small squares that are placed on top of ALL semiconductor chips in the CD player a shown in the photo. The reason this tweak is effective is because all semiconductor chips are strong RFI/EMI emitters. This tweak in my humble system wrought very good results even though one of the mods to my tricked out Oppo 103 was the Audio Magic Pulse Gen ZX RFI/EMI device that appears to be attached electrically to the incoming AC. AB5100S can be obtained at Mouser.com. First photo shows a couple naked semiconductor chips.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Naked and they dance
toledo wrote:

We have been doing this back and forth now for months. Enough of the wordsmithing... Let's see the systems and how you use your techniques and how you voice your systems.

Where are your customers that use these techniques...maybe they can lend a hand here.

Maybe it is time to go our separate ways. You guys can discuss your things on your own threads.

Me thinks you don't want this ... you wouldn't get the exposure you are after.

If you want to discuss your products and ideas .. Let's do so, but in the context of actual use in systems and in listening terms ... not in terms of old reviews or vague generalities.

Where's the transparency guys .. You can go to tuneland and all is laid out, plain as day, for all to see and discuss. We encourage discussion and want to discuss our systems and techniques to get feedback and share.

You do notice that not too many others participate on these threads. They are waiting for something to actually discuss.

Oh, so now it's my fault there's no participation? Well, it's certainly true that YOU don't participate, I mean other than to scold and nag. And being a shill for TuneLand. Naked and they dance. Step right this way.

If someone would like to discuss something be my guest. I have about 25 products and The Belts have nearly 70 if I recall correctly. OK, which one of you sissies is going to be first?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
toledo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 7 months ago
Joined: May 12 2014 - 1:50pm
Geoff,

Geoff,

Now we are getting somewhere. Was that that hard.

Is this a pic of your oppo player?

I have used emi/rfi blocker strips on my transformers that were designed for military purposes. Mine did not have adhesive backing, though ... It has more of a fabric backing and very light. So not sure if same product.

I have also used, in some custom built components, top and bottom covers made from copper plates to help with blockage at the box level.

There are many approaches here that can be tried. The one you and I have tried is attacking the issue at the source. Another choice, which I am using now, is to use amp/players that have smaller and less components on the circuit boards to have more space between them, reduce surface area and reduce their interaction. That and opening up the chassis, help considerably to open up the signal.

Could you describe what improvements this has made to your listening?

How do you combine this with some of your other ideas to voice your system.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
Costin's tuning

Hi Costin

Excellent! Now what we should look at are the things in the system that might have the same adjustability as the speakers did. First thing to look at would be the rest of the screws in the system. Components, binding post plates, wall outlet covers, anything you can find that is using tention. Once you start your probably going to find that things were tightened too much, doing the same thing you found with your speakers.

I know you don't want to leave your components open but if you get a chance you could look inside and you will more than likely find a lot of stuff (tie wraps, board screws, transformer mounts) any thing that looks bolted down. If you loosen or free those things you will hear the system relax, stage grow and things become more life like. Also you might want to look at anything that looks like dampening and remove it if you can.

There's a lot of other things to play with, let me know the types of things you want to try and I'll make some suggestions.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
May, thank you for your answer

1. I would try to orient the slots horizontally (there is nothing to lose, after all) but these are torx screws with hex slots...

2. Sorry if my comment on subliminal messages sounded mean but I took the time to read your explanations and there are a few very wrong statements there. And if you base a product on wrong statements, how can that product work right?

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Military purposes
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Now we are getting somewhere. Was that that hard.

Is this a pic of your oppo player?

I have used emi/rfi blocker strips on my transformers that were designed for military purposes. Mine did not have adhesive backing, though ... It has more of a fabric backing. So not sure if same product.

I have also used, in some custom built components, top and bottom covers made from copper plates to help with blockage at the box level.

There are many approaches here that can be tried. The one you and I have tried is attacking the issue at the source. Another choice, which I am using now, is to use amp/players that have smaller and less components on the circuit boards to have more space between them, reduce surface area and reduce their interaction. That and opening up the chassis, help considerably to open up the signal.

Could you describe what improvements this has made to your listening?

How do you combine this with some of your other ideas to voice your system.

My condolences. The military stuff sucks. The 3M stuff is an entirely different animal. You asked,

"Could you describe what improvements this has made to your listening?"

Less noise and distortion translates to more information, more air and better bass response.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Positive messages.

Hello Costin,

>>> “Sorry if my comment on subliminal messages sounded mean but I took the time to read your explanations and there are a few very wrong statements there. And is you base a product on wrong statements, how can that product work right?” <<<

Our recommendation is always to use positive, beneficial messages so I am not understanding what you are referring to.

Particularly as we ask people to be sure that they do not use words which could be ambiguous.

You CAN use a ‘worse’ word (to use your description) but within a positive message such as “It’s OK, the danger has gone away”.

The word danger has been used, yes, but in a positive and reassuring way. As opposed to the “worse” side which would be “Watch out, there’s danger about”.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
there ya go!

I wanted to say "isn't it much better to be doing things than just talking about them"?

See how the mood changes when we start to listen :)

Talking is so limited next to the actual practice of listening.

Last night I put on Traffic "low spark of high heeled boys". The top end was too forced and felt out of balance with the rest of the recording, so I made "1" variable move, and everything turned to open airy and smooth on the top. Cymbals came to life and the drums fit perfectly in the stage. The stage is now wrapped around me and the hand clapping you can hear the cupping of the hands. The top hat is gorgeous and the keyboards are out of this world clean and full. You can see the size of them front to back. Here's the thing, once you get your system flexible enough the tuning becomes so easy and with practice you can make major changes and predictable at will.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
JA's 2011 Richard C. Heyser Memorial Lecture

http://forum.stereophile.com/content/2011-richard-c-heyser-memorial-lecture-where-did-negative-frequencies-go#comments-link

This is a very pertinent read that would assist people in understanding why being skeptical, but not dismissive, is entirely rational when it comes to people's approach to audio. I think it would also give you guys a better understanding of where Michael, Geoff and PWB are coming from and why their particular approaches to sound, while overlapping in some areas, also differ in quite a few others, but shouldn't be considered completely without merit. This is especially true if you consider the state of mind of the listener and how it can be tweaked with things similar to feng shui or simply tried and true interior design principles.

The lecture covers a lot of territory and provokes quite a bit of thought and even more questions. One observation that struck a particular chord within me is how the ear and brain react to a sound that the brain has no memory of ever hearing before. Say, for example, that I'm in the Amazon jungle and hear a plane fly over. Because I have experience hearing that sound before, my brain immediately processes the sound and identifies it as a plane and it sounds real. But, what if a native within the jungle also hears the plane, but has never heard that sound before? His brain has no reference from which to attach to the sound. Not only does the native have no idea what the sound is, he can have no way of determing the realness of the sound as accurately representing a plane.

My intent isn't to derail this thread, but to simply suggest that spending 30 minutes reading John's lecture might help everyone to understand where other people are coming from and perhaps help turn the heat down a notch or two.

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
May, let me be more specific

1. For a Romanian some messages in English are meaningless (talking about your foils now). Furthermore, while living in Canada a while ago I used to scream into the phone (while talking to friends and relatives back home) "Fac bine, fac foarte bine!, meaning ""I'm doing well, I'm doing very well", until the old lady next door complained to the superintendent that I'm yelling profanities in the middle of the night.

2. But then I'm not referring to this but to your "comfort by localization theory": in a 3D space (even forgetting about time) one cannot localize him/herself using 2D coordinates. I'll point you to your own site if needed.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
The heat

The heat turned down for me as soon as I saw people listening :)

People do so much assuming in this industry, stop talking and start doing is something I have always believed in. You will learn far more about your system when you are sitting in your room listening.

First thing you will notice is, do you like the sound or not, second is noticing that every recording sounds different from every other recording. For me those are the two biggest points in this industry. I look at this with logic. If I want to like all the music what do I need to do? For myself having this answer does away with everything else. All the other stuff is just talk.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
What heat ?

>>> “The heat turned down for me as soon as I saw people listening :)” <<<

Don’t be ridiculous Michael. People have been listening all the time. How else do you think we all know what we are talking about. Don’t you realise that you are talking to intelligent and experienced people ?

>>> “If I want to like all the music what do I need to do? For myself having this answer does away with everything else. All the other stuff is just talk.” <<<

Yes, we know that, in your opinion, having this answer does away with everything else !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
wrong person May

May, I wasn't responding to you, but to Catch.

catch said

My intent isn't to derail this thread, but to simply suggest that spending 30 minutes reading John's lecture might help everyone to understand where other people are coming from and perhaps help turn the heat down a notch or two.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
now your turn May

Hi May

A few times this question has been brought up to you and Geoff, and it touches on your comment.

"People have been listening all the time. How else do you think we all know what we are talking about. Don’t you realise that you are talking to intelligent and experienced people ?"

I don't really care how smart someone is, but I do appreciate seeing someones experience in real time. We have no idea what you are listening to or how May. This was the whole point of the thread. I was hoping that there would be an exchange about listening. Not what anyone has done only, but what people "are" doing. If you read back through the thread that's all we ever wanted. We/I would like to get a sense of your system and listening habbits, same as Geoff, and then start referencing some music together so people could see how we all do things to come up with the sound we do. That's all May.

These threads keep talking but they need to turn into showing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Catch said

Catch said :-

>>> “My intent isn’t to derail this thread, but to simply suggest that spending 30 minutes reading John's lecture might help everyone to understand where other people are coming from and perhaps help turn the heat down a notch or two.” <<<

Yes, I have read John’s lecture Michael And I quote from one particular paragraph :-

>>> “The brain is used to using incomplete data from which to create its internal models of reality, which in turn means that _everything_ we perceive, not just sound, contributes to our judgment of sound quality, which is what Mrs. Belt is suggesting.

John Atkinson” <<<

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
And further :-

And further :-

>>> “We/I would like to get a sense of your system and listening habbits, same as Geoff, and then start referencing some music together so people could see how we all do things to come up with the sound we do. That's all May.
These threads keep talking but they need to turn into showing.” <<<

If such as John Atkinson (to name but one) does NOT NEED to know what my system is or what I am listening to – to understand what Peter and I are trying to get at, why is it SOOOOOOOOOOO necessary for you to need such information ? Not knowing what our system is or what we are listening to is NOT a barrier to further understanding !!!!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
two different things

Hi May

So are you saying you have no interest in referencing music together with us?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Not necessary.

>>> “Hi May

So are you saying you have no interest in referencing music together with us?” <<<

I am saying it is not necessary for us to “reference music together”, in order to further knowledge. I understand what you are doing without ever knowing what audio system you are listening to or what music you are listening to.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
two different things

I think it's cool that you guys want to talk sound, but I need to do sound, and my clients, friends and associates have based their work and findings on the collective explorations of working together by doing. That being said, if I don't see you doing it or being willing to reference a piece of music with us in real time there is no way for us as a group of listeners to gain any thing more than what you have said and what we have tried of yours.

I appreciate that you have shared with us, but what you are saying and we are doing are two different things. If you ever want to experience what we do you are more than welcome, but as for me, I'm going to pass on the talk and no walk.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
May, just a trivial example of why the system is important

I know it's trivial but then one has sometimes to help beginners, so this kimg of things do happen. Here it goes: on a Romanian forum dealing with audio someone asked why he could not get any semblance of soundstage and imaging. As it happens, many experienced people suggested various changes to his setup, including checking speaker cable polarity, toe-in, decoupling and well, "the works". Finally I got fed-up and asked the guy to post a photo of his syatem and guess what? (insert drumroll here, please) He had his bookshelf speakers in... well... some bookshelves, with a huge TV in between. Furthermore, they were pushed far back against the wall so his kid would not reach the drive units. Just knowing this would have avoided countless hours of headscratching for a lot of people who had better thingh to do, like listening to music.

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 5 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Systems

>>> “May, just a trivial example of why the system is important
I know it's trivial but then one has sometimes to help beginners, so this kimg of things do happen. Here it goes: on a Romanian forum dealing with audio someone asked why he could not get any semblance of soundstage and imaging.” <<<

Hi Costin.

That particular sentence of yours says it all.

Yes, I know that people like to see another person’s system. But, the crucial thing here, with the example you have given, is that the person who said he was having problems in not getting any semblance of soundstaging and imaging ASKED for some advice as to why he was not !!

I, on the other hand am NOT asking for advice on how to get better sound, on how to get better soundstaging and imaging !! I am not asking for help. So, you, Michael or anyone else does not NEED to see my system because I am not asking for help.

If I WAS asking for assistance, then your sentence would be apt, and seeing what my listening environment is like WOULD BE of help in providing assistance – but that is NOT the case in my situation.

We have a very peculiar situation here on this forum with Michael asking (nay many times demanding) that I tell everyone what system I am listening through and what music I am listening to.

I have never known one manufacturer or producer of audio products to want another manufacturer or producer of audio products to take part in listening tests, via the internet, to try to work out what the other person is doing, or finding !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Parlor trick

Michael wrote,

"Geoff you want to spread around the industry that I'm BS, let's get with it and let them all see where the BS is.

If what I'm doing is BS then I think we all deserve this to be put to the test. While we're at it and since we are on Stereophile let me invite any designer, reviewer or hobbyist that doubts the tune to put this to the test. Let's compare systems and you show me how you make variable changes and I'll show you. The only way to truly find out is to do right? Let's do! I personally think that it would be good to finally separate the talkers and the walkers, the takers and the givers.

Let's have a listen-a-thon."

Let's not have a listen-a-thon. As a great philosopher once said, let's not and say we did. If words are not enough to convey thoughts maybe we need to go to a different medium besides Internet forums. I have told you where you went wrong already. I suspect some of your conclusions might be on shakey ground and probably explains why you are forced to tune the whole damn system for each and every recording. When you take apart a component almost completely and get it down to the barest essentials, perhaps a few capacitors and some transistors and some wires, lol, the fundamental problems I'm referring to are STILL THERE. They are INVISIBLE. It is because these fundamental problems are invisible that photos do not reveal them, not the ones I'm referring to. You can remove the nucleus of an atom and it will still function like an atom. You can cut a chicken's head off and it will still run around and act like a chicken. I would put it like this, no matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more in the beginning.

Ain't talking, just walking
Through the world mysterious and vague
Heart burning, still yearning
Walking through the cities of the plague.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Naked and they dance

Here's what my Sennheiser HD600s look like in person. Taken with my LG G2.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Online
Last seen: 14 min 16 sec ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
We Have Gear!! Geoff Says...

Let's not listen, and say we did...

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Play nice
ChrisS wrote:

Let's not listen, and say we did...

Let's not put words in my mouth, my pointy headed friend.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Online
Last seen: 14 min 16 sec ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
They are your words, Geoff.

"Let's not have a listen-a-thon. As a great philosopher once said, let's not and say we did."

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Hey Chris, here's a question for you
ChrisS wrote:

"Let's not have a listen-a-thon. As a great philosopher once said, let's not and say we did."

How many things can you find wrong with this photo?

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Online
Last seen: 14 min 16 sec ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Hey Geoff! Let's not answer...

your question and say I did.

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
ChrisS wrote:

"Let's not have a listen-a-thon. As a great philosopher once said, let's not and say we did."

How many things can you find wrong with this photo?

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

They left off Saturday Evening Post?

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Online
Last seen: 14 min 16 sec ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Geoff's Message

1. Please buy my products.

2. Have a nice day.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
referencing

There's many reasons to reference systems and personally it has been a part of my career for a long time.

Yesterday I worked on 4 systems, slow day I know but it's a holiday here. With each one the listener wanted to go after a particular sound. One was creating a 25' stage ceiling for one of his classical pieces plus placing him in the hall (in the crowd more). With this I first needed to see if I could get the recording to do it. I did this on system 2 because I was testing settling on system 1 and didn't want to interupt this. He was right the recording did have a high ceiling so I got back to him and walked him through. Second one was in a tunable room so that was a blast. I walked him through showing him how to align the stage through using some of the panels. I took him through going from a smaller in the room stage to going way out side. We also worked on stage presentation so he could decide how linear he wanted the effects to float through the stage. In the process we also tuned things up so the the instruments passing from one side to the other were exactly the same in tone and shape. With his system being completely variable he could make any change he wants, just needs to learn how to play the system. Next was a studio referencing mastering room to better match their live room. And lastly was matching the sound of a listeners setup to mine because he wanted to hear what I was to see if he liked it. He has been a midfield listener most of his life and wanted to tried extreme nearfield and see if he could put himself in the middle of the stage with the frontal being equal to the rear. After we did this he put on a different recording and noticed that the stage fell up front, and another recording fell behind him so he got back ahold of me and we started walking through each recording and I showed him how to make the adjustments.

I can't imagine these people would have the confidence in me to do this with them unless I showed and demostrated this to listeners in real time and with my systems that are fairly transparent to the public. Part of my biz is selling product but the bigger part is showing different methods of listening that they can use with their systems. This can only be done by me "doing" and the listeners "doing" along with me.

TuneLand is about the actual voicing of systems and referencing them together so that the listener can find that perfect path for them as master of their own system. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Another reason why it is absolutely imperative (I feel) that we show systems, is so that we can be an example to the rest of the listening community. As has been brought up here a few times these threads turn into ego bashing, spins and down right freakish falsehoods. The audiophile world has been over run with myths and myth makers. Even on this thread I have been called the king of BS lol by another product pusher, which could be very hurtful if I wasn't transparent with TuneLand and truthful with my findings on here. How can a listener trust someone in this industry if they are not referencing together. This goes for live sound all the way through to playback. If not for referencing all of this becomes nothing more than spins and those doing the spinning. Of course we need to see and reference the systems together. That's what this hobby and industry is.

This hobby is about the music and the systems that get to the music, and any and every designer should be putting their system front and center as their proclamation of being a part of. They should be showing people how to get from here to there by example on their own systems and be prepared to make real time changes to match (reference) the sound of someone else and then guide them through by showing and listening.

one more fact

Anyone can claim they are at the top of a food chain and this is something product makers and theorist try to fool the public with almost non-stop. Floods of product lists and the talk of absolutes. This makes my antennas and flags go way up and obviously most other listeners too cause the numbers of folks buying into high end is going way down. I know as a listener and someone in the recording and live industry that every recording is different and there is no one way street to bringing the music to life. It is scary and should be when someone makes a claim of a "fixed" product being an absolute, I don't care if it was me or anyone. This by absolutely no means is a one size fits all process and people who claim this absolutely without a doubt need to be doing something way more than talking. This is an industry of vibrating parts, signals, waves and fields. It's also an industry where the source is different with every project, and most of all this is an industry where every participant has a different perception and set of values along with priorities. In the rest of the music world this would be treated with the voicing and tuning of the musical halls, studios and instruments. All of these I can see, feel and play along with referencing and seeing the designers own worlds. Why someone who makes bold claims is not willing to do this is something to be questioned.

Why do I reference, because I can and because my clients want to build a listening relationship with me and I with them. I reference because I need to show the industry that there is more than mix and match and fixed products that give "An" answer but not always "The" answer. I reference because this is the best way to arrive at proof for the listener, and show each other when there is something we overlooked in a recording or with a system that we together as a team can help each other become masters of our systems. I reference because there are levels of listening and sometimes mixing these levels can do more harm than good. If you have a variable system and put something that is "fixed" (stuck) it can easily hold the rest of the system back. I reference because that's my job and responsibility to my clients, the industry and mostly me.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Pages

  • X