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michael green
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answering May

Hi May

I support a lot of products that fit into our goals. I also am truly happy when someone finds what they want. I don't play those games, and neither do the other tunees. You can intepret this any way you wish. At the same time I am constantly asked about products and sound, so I try to be as responsible as I can.

you asked

I am curious, Michael. Is there ANY treatment for CDs and LPs which you have found to give YOU better sound than just leaving it untreated ?

mg

I've answered already in a few places. Because labels are produced in many different ways, I have found that they would need to be treated as individuals. When I put on a recording May, I don't judge it by the recording played before it necessarily. The one before it is quite different in many ways and has it's own set of codes that can be brought out once the vibratory codes get close to mated, but when the new recording is put on this is a new ball game with a whole new set of values. These values can either be left alone or gone after by tuning means. That's what we do. It's not meant to be a put down to anyone, but it is a fact that a system set to only one setting may not bring the new recording to life.

None of this is meant to be a put down to anyone May, it is however another step that anyone can do to get even more out of a recording. If you or Geoff would like to explore this with us we would be happy to be apart of your exploration. This is not a put down but an offer. Maybe you and Geoff and Peter already do tune, but I haven't seen it.

I have asked you and Geoff this question a few times without an answer. How do you make the changes required to put an individual recording intune? There is no put down within miles of this question, only a desire to explore together. We have found that every recording is "tuned" differently than any other and design ways to put them intune. As we have said before, this shouldn't be insulting to anyone.

May, if I may, put on 10 different recordings (anyone can do this while May does). You can hear the different recorded codes going on correct? These don't get put into tune by applying a treatment. Treat these CD's, put them back on, and the codes will still be different. May, this is the area we deal in. If someone wants to tune before or after the treatment you provide, that's fine with us. What we are doing is something different than you, another part of the hobby May.

All I'm doing with you and Geoff is getting to know who you are, and taking a peek at how your stuff works within the perameters of the what we do. You and Geoff are spending your time trying to school the tunees for what reason, we don't know. If you guys did what we do and said try this, we would and have to some degree. But May, if we try something and find it to not head in the direction we find useful for us, please don't take it as an attack. We don't take it as an attack when someone likes your stuff. We take it as a choice and nothing more or less. If someone does Nordost as part of their formula, that's fine with us.

There's all different flavors on TuneLand, not michael's flavor LOL, and that's it. That would be the opposite of the purpose of tuning. Shoot that would be the opposite of the purpose of music.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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Attacking the root cause

Michael, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I have a sneaking suspicion that Tuners would not be quite so FRUSTRATED with the sound that they are inclined to Tune EVERY SINGLE RECORDING to a separate set of requirements when it would be MUCH EASIER TO ADDRESS the ROOT CAUSE of the problems. The problems from a philosophical point of view are that if you have to adjust the system for each recording to maximize its sonics then you have probably focused in on a LOCAL MAXIMUM. I think Tuners would be much more likely to locate or discover the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM if they subscribed to what May and I have been describing ALL ALONG. It is certainly NOT TRUE that we haven't answered your Question, how would we tune each reccrding? As I recently wrote in my paper, "What's Wrong with CDs and Why do they Sound so Horrible?" there are at least 10 Reasons why CDs sound thin, two dimensional, irritating, like paper mâché, compressed, rolled off, bass shy and just plain boring. This is not an indictment against any one particular CD, it's an indictment against the WHOLE PLAYBACK SYSTEM - this is the ROOT CAUSE of the problems we all hear with the music. And without address the problems in loved with READING THE DATA ON THE DISC the degradation to the sound will be transmitted upstream, no doubt about it. The most logical way to deal with these problems with the sound is attack the ROOT CAUSE, which means that you guys are going to have to roll up your sleeves and get busy with your Morphic Housekeeping, which is May's bailiwick, and get busy with all the things that affect our sound that aren't related to the audio system at all - not to house power, the acoustic signal in the room or the signal in the cables. Otherwise you will be lost sheep. It's a sad fact of life that Beltism, all this business with Morphic Fields and mind matter interaction is not amenable to TUNING. And get busy addressing vibration isolation, resonance control, addressing the magnetic field generated by the transformer, address RFI/EMI generated by semiconductor chips, address background scattered laser light that is producing errors in the data, and other INHERENT PROBLEMS in the whole playback system. Orherwise you will be lost sheep, out somewhere on the mountain trail, but a long way from the top of the mountain.

Link to What's Wromg with CDs? Article,

http://machinadynamica.com/machina35.htm

No matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more in the beginning.

From the 50s TV show Outer Limits:

First lines of each episode: "There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to – The Outer Limits."

;-)

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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Dealing with a root cause.

Thank you for your reply Michael. I hope we are now on a more balanced exchange of views. Our intention is not to attack each other but to further knowledge and experience.

I understand where you are coming from. I fully understand that you can achieve different sounds – better sounds – by doing many of the things you outline in your ‘tuning’ techniques. I DO NOT challenge any of your observations on the differences in sound you achieve and describe.

>>> “But May, if we try something and find it to not head in the direction we find useful for us, please don't take it as an attack. We don't take it as an attack when someone likes your stuff. We take it as a choice and nothing more or less. If someone does Nordost as part of their formula, that's fine with us.” <<<

I don’t take it as an attack Michael.

The point I have been trying to make all along, Michael, is that if “someone does Nordost as part of their formula”, i.e. applying a chemical to the label side of CDs and to the labels of LPs, then it should NOT be laid to one side as “fine with YOU” !!!! Because, in the world of audio, it SHOULD NOT be changing the sound at all. And, if it DOES change the sound, (which it does), then this should ‘knock anyone (who is seriously involved in audio) back on their heels ‘. And, therefore, the subject has to be addressed.

Applying a chemical to the label side of a CD or to the labels to LPs cannot be altering the 0s and 1s encoded on the CDs. It cannot be affecting ‘jitter’. It cannot be affecting vibrations. But it DOES affect the sound !!!!!!!!! In which case, one HAS to seriously address that issue. And ALL the other issues which can change the sound of CDs and LPs at the source - when they begin to be played. Before one even looks at what material the CD player (or LP player) sits on or what is inside the CD player etc. etc.

Applying such as a demagnetiser to CDs and LPs brings up exactly the same issue. It was such an experience which prompted John Atkinson to say, at a public discussion at a Montreal Hi Fi show :-

>>> “There are things that boggle my mind in High End audio. There are things that I would like to think I understand (from a technical and engineering point of view) and then something happens which literally blows my mind and it doesn’t fit the world view. Such as during the trip which Stephen and I did to Michael’s house !!” <<<

And Michael Fremer’s response to someone on this very Stereophile Forum:-

>>> “But more importantly, why don't you trust your ears???????

I trusted mine when I heard what the Furutech did, despite my utter cynicism about it (which is why it sat on the floor for 3 months before I tried it).

What I heard was so obvious, so repeatable, so clear, it was like "is that the Empire State Building?" Not "I'd better do an A/B/X to prove it really is the Empire State Building" (I know that analogy is not valid). The point is, not one skeptic---and I'm talking recording engineers, mastering engineers whose names you know, and the editor of the magazine have all heard the difference....the only reason. The only reason you wrote what's above is because you haven't experienced it. Because had you, even if you don't trust your own ears (or your own eyes I guess), this is an easily heard, easily repeatable phenomenon. It's a HUGH difference.” <<<

Michael, the point I have been trying to make all along is that as SOON as you heard anything (any treatment) change the sound of a CD, YOU should have also been saying:-

>>> “There are things that boggle my mind in High End audio. There are things that I would like to think I understand (from a technical and engineering point of view) and then something happens which literally blows my mind and it doesn’t fit the world view. “ <<<

It does not make any difference whether the change in the sound was better or worse. If NEITHER change should happen, then one is faced with a problem. A problem which will not go away – no matter what else one can do later in the audio system and listening environment.

I fully appreciate that afterwards, after doing any such treatment as demagnetising one can STILL do numerous things (to use your word ‘tuning’) to both the equipment and to the listening environment. I am not disputing that. But to casually say “Oh it’s fine with me if others want to ‘do the Nordost thing as part of their formula”, or “Oh it’s fine with me if others want to ‘do the demagnetising thing as part of their formula” is dodging the whole issue.

It is like me saying “Oh, it’s fine with me if some other people want to treat the transformers in the equipment if that is part of their formula” but I prefer to gain more control of the sound by ‘leaving the transformer alone and treat other things in the environment”.

It would be completely wrong of me to discount (ignore/evade) ‘treating transformers’ because I understand that EVERYTHING has to be included - treating CDs and LPs, treating transformers, capacitors, resistors, printed circuit boards, knobs, cables, equipment supports, stands, everything in the loudspeakers, as well as shelving in the listening room, pictures on the wall, mirrors on the wall, clocks on the wall, and SO on and SO on – the list is endless. As you know as well as I do.

If you know that transformers are a problem and sound better after ‘tuning’, then I am sure YOU would not ignore (bypass) the transformer and leave it untreated and carry on ‘tuning’ other things further along the audio system. If you knew that (say) isolating a transformer gave an improvement in the sound, I am absolutely sure that you would not do different things like isolating a transformer when listening to Dvorak’s New World but would remove that isolation for Beethoven’s 5th.

So, let us have a look at your approach.

>>> “I have answered already in a few places. Because labels are produced in many different ways, I have found that they would need to be treated as individuals. When I put on a recording May, I don't judge it by the recording played before it necessarily. The one before it is quite different in many ways and has it's own set of codes that can be brought out once the vibratory codes get close to mated, but when the new recording is put on this is a new ball game with a whole new set of values. These values can either be left alone or gone after by tuning means. That's what we do. It's not meant to be a put down to anyone, but it is a fact that a system set to only one setting may not bring the new recording to life.” <<<

Labels produced in many different ways. Yes. CDs produced in different ways. Yes. But, I am not talking about a system set to only one setting.

Let us look at basics – general basics. Re demagnetising CDs.
If, as some have suggested, there is some metallic element in the layering construction of the basic CD which could be magnetised – therefore ‘demagnetised’, then YES, different CDs could be variable – but variable only in the DEGREE at which any metallic layer could be magnetised and then demagnetised.

If, as some have suggested, there are metallic paints used in the printing of the label side of CDs, then the LEVEL of the amount of metallic powder of the paint will be variable yes, but only in DEGREES. The basic problem would still exist if ANY of the paint could be magnetised and then demagnetised.

If after demagnetising one can gain improvements, some as described by Michael Fremer as HUGE, then, logically, BEFORE demagnetising there must have been an adverse effect happening – somewhere !!! That adverse effect, therefore, must be on the actual CD and, again logically, one cannot just do nothing, and expect to later recover that adverse effect somewhere else in the audio system or in the listening environment. Again, logically, without doing anything to the CD, one would have the initial problem still remaining whilst, yes, being able to make further improvements in the sound by doing other (what you call ‘tuning’) techniques further in the audio system or listening environment. What I have described does not in any way alter what one can do to gain improvements later, but it still leaves the basic problem back at the CD !!!!! It is that the basic problem could vary but only in it’s DEGREE of adverse effect.

In exactly the same way. If YOU have discovered that transformers are a problem, then you can’t move past that problem and expect to recover something lost by doing something further along the audio system or in the listening environment.

>>> “But May, if we try something and find it to not head in the direction we find useful for us, please don't take it as an attack.” <<<

To put it into a nutshell and to exaggerate somewhat but only to make an important point.

It is like there being a problem (as in the past) with a pick up cartridge picking up the rumble of the turntable motor and someone saying “Oh, I don’t make turntables so I prefer not to deal with that problem -I can adjust for that later in my pre-amplifier and amplifier designs and I prefer to concentrate in those particular areas”.

If you, Michael, have (hypothetically) made discovery after discovery as to how and what to do with your pre-amplifier and amplifier designs to gain more and more improvements in their sound, then fine. Just don’t sideline other basic and earlier (earlier to the pre-amplifier and amplifier) problem areas.
Probably that was not the best example to use because there is a conventional explanation as to why a cartridge could be picking up the rumble of a turntable motor. Whereas there are no conventional explanations as to why applying a chemical to the labels of CDs and LPs or demagnetising CDs and LPs can give improvements in their sound !!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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Confirming the products

Hi Guys

I wanted to confirm that the products we did in our testing were indeed May's, Geoff's and Nordost among many others. I didn't want to speak out of turn about treating the Cd's. I wish I would have kept better records now but after talking with and hearing from the others I feel pretty confident that all the basis were covered, however I'm happy to do the testing again.

As far as what John, Michael and others you guys have mentioned, as much as I appreciate their comments I know they are using stock components and have not gone nearly as far as we have to the signals source. Meaning they have not removed all the system's fat. I would also say that looking at Geoff's he has not either. His component is completely intact. As far as May, we'll only know this when we see her system.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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past the talk

Ok, I've done some more listening and am ready to get past the talk. Time for simple questions.

1) May and Geoff will you describe your listening tests systems?

2) Are your systems in or out of their chassis?

3) Are you using a room, or headphones or both?

I've read through some of these threads and what still bugs me is that you guys are not willing to answer questions people give you. Both of you turn this into a question back to the asker instead of answering. I think if we can start off simply we might find out where we are missing each other when talking. So maybe it would be good if we cover the basics and move on from there.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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Strawman Arguments up the wazoo
michael green wrote:

Hi Guys

I wanted to confirm that the products we did in our testing were indeed May's, Geoff's and Nordost among many others. I didn't want to speak out of turn about treating the Cd's. I wish I would have kept better records now but after talking with and hearing from the others I feel pretty confident that all the basis were covered, however I'm happy to do the testing again.

As far as what John, Michael and others you guys have mentioned, as much as I appreciate their comments I know they are using stock components and have not gone nearly as far as we have to the signals source. Meaning they have not removed all the system's fat. I would also say that looking at Geoff's he has not either. His component is completely intact. As far as May, we'll only know this when we see her system.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Well, Michael, those are excellent Strawman arguments. There has been no proof that taking the component apart has any influence at all on the sound. Not to mention the potential for creating a dangerous situation for the average audiophile. Just because you are determined to "remove all the fat" as you say doesn't prove anything about regarding the advantage of such an extreme tactic. I have already made it quite clear I am not a disciple of Tuning, so why would you suspect I would be performing any of your Tuning rituals? I could just as easily say you have not gone nearly far enough with treating CDs, treating transformers, addressing scattered background laser light, coloring your CDs, suspending all cabling, ignoring the directionality of wire and fuses, ignoring the polarity of the system and that of CDs, or far enough with isolating components, or are using treated clocks in the room.

As far as "those guys" using any of my products in your testing I would also be quite interested as I am not aware of selling any products for such purposes or to anyone connected with your enterprise, for that matter. As far as guessing the state of my components you're just shooting blanks in the dark, like we've seen with your guessing that my headphone amp was sitting on one of my dampers and overlooking or dismissing the springs in my headphone iso stand. This is all very strange, if you don't mind my saying so too much, this whole my way or the highway attitude.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
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Proof for some but not others

Hey Geoff,

"There has been no proof that taking the component apart has any influence at all on the sound."

Why is it that proof is needed when discussing tuning concepts but listening results are valid for clocks, cd treatments, scattered light etc... and your other meta physical, Morphic Resonance tweaks.

geoffkait
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Proof and evidence
toledo wrote:

Hey Geoff,

"There has been no proof that taking the component apart has any influence at all on the sound."

Why is it that proof is needed when discussing tuning concepts but listening results are valid for clocks, cd treatments, scattered light etc... and your other meta physical, Morphic Resonance tweaks.

I never claimed that I have proof or that there is proof for any of my products, metaphysical or otherwise. Proof is a hard thing to come by for just about any audio device or cable, etc., don't you think? But listening is accepted as evidence, you know, evidence pro or con as the case may be. You understand the difference between proof and evidence, right? If you like I can post the Wikipedia page....:-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
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Double standard.. hold the spin

Geoff,

Do you need a wiki link on reading comprehension techniques?

Did I say you claimed you have proof of your products effects ... i said listening results are used to validate your claims!

So no proof is needed for your products, yet you require proof for tuning techniques (ie. opening up the chassis or taking the component apart to improve the sound.)

Do you get the double standard. Probably not .. I await the 500 word disparaging response you so love to make or attempt a dismissive "stop whining" remark. I am sure you will be as charming as usual.

geoffkait
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A semantic quagmire
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Do you need a wiki link on reading comprehension techniques?

Did I say you claimed you have proof of your products effects ... i said listening results are used to validate your claims!

So no proof is needed for your products, yet you require proof for tuning techniques (ie. opening up the chassis or taking the component apart to improve the sound.)

Do you get the double standard. Probably not .. I await the 500 word disparaging response you so love to make or attempt a dismissive "stop whining" remark. I am sure you will be as charming as usual.

I suspect we are having a mild mannered semantic argument. When you say validate don't you mean prove? This is why you have to love this hobby, nobody ever agrees on anything. What I am saying is that a person is allowed to voice his opinion on listening results, by all means. And we should not accuse anyone of misrepresenting the facts. However, we are not obligated to generalize his results - whatever they might be - and make some declaration such as the thing works or the thing doesn't work. I'm quite sure you will agree with this. In fact I won't even stay up to see your response. Catch you on the flip side.

By the way, speaking of reading comprehension skill, I did not say I require proof of anyone, in particular for "taking the fat off the component." In fact, I already pointed out the inherent problem with the (heavy) transformer. You probably missed it. You are getting quite savvy with Strawman arguments, you know, putting words in my mouth.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
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Geoff,

Geoff,

"There has been no proof that taking the component apart has any influence at all on the sound."

First line in your post. Nothing about fat. Pretty clear. I knew I would get spin. Unbelievable.

Geoff, you do realize a lot of people read these posts, don't you that are probably wondering what's with this guy.
No skin off my back.

Michael,

You have the patience of a saint dealing with Geoff. But, I wonder if you will ever get a rational discourse with him. Nothing but spin and deflection.

I think working with May has more potential to discuss her products and ideas and see if they are a good fit for tuning.

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the root cause

Hi Geoff

The only way to get to the root cause that you and May talk about is to get to the roots. From a design point of view in this industry or any other you have to take apart to explore, or you have to create. So unless you created the amp your using the only way to see how it responds is to take it down to the core and study the design from the ground up. If your not doing this how would you know how the different parts and pieces are interacting? It appears that your throwing tweaks ontop of stock, and that's not really exploring the signal path.

proof

That's a problem that people have who haven't done. I feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening.

my way or the highway?

How in the world is tuning "my way or the highway"? Tuning is the biggest and oldest musical technology there is. I'm just on board with the most proven technology, and enjoying the ride.

Geoff said

"I have already made it quite clear I am not a disciple of Tuning"

mg

Than your not a real designer or tweak. There's not one designer in this entire industry who doesn't tune, even if it is a fixed voicing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Catch22
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When does a tweak become a tune?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference between tweaking and tuning. What constitutes a tweak and what constitutes a tune? For example, would placing an Mpingo disc on a cable be a tweak or is it tuning?

May Belt
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Tweaking or tuning

>>> “When does a tweak become a tune?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference between tweaking and tuning. What constitutes a tweak and what constitutes a tune? For example, would placing an Mpingo disc on a cable be a tweak or is it tuning?” <<<

I think it is very much a matter of terminology and then practice. Using your example of placing a Mpingo disc on a cable.

When someone originally discoveries ‘something which affects the sound’ and then manufactures such as a Mpingo disc, the reaction by so many people professionally involved in the audio industry is either:-

“I heard it improve the sound, I don’t understand quite why it did, but it did. When I placed it on a cable, on an item of audio equipment, on something in the listening room, it ‘gave me better sound - opening up the sound much more”.

The response to this by many ‘professionals in audio’ is to describe it as a ‘tweak’ – to isolate it away from conventional electronic and acoustic theory, because it (such devices) don’t actually make conventional sense. But usually what is called a ‘tweak’ is something which is just ‘done’ and not altered, or is ‘attached to’ and then left – because it HAS improved the sound better than it was before. This is the positive side of the descriptive word “Tweak”.

OR :-

“it can’t possibly have any effect’ – so then the descriptive word “Tweak” becomes used as a derogative (dismissive/negative) word.

I am seeing what Michael G describes as ‘tuning’ is (say hypothetically) placing such as a Mpingo disc on a position on a cable to gain a desired but specific part of the music. But he could then suggest that the Mpingo disc be placed in a different position to achieve a different (desired) effect. Then, in other instances, he could describe placing Mpingo discs on different items in the listening room to achieve other beneficial but specific effects. In other words what he calls “variable” rather than ‘fixed’. That you ‘do this’ to achieve that effect, and you ‘do this’ to achieve that effect, and ‘do this’ if you want to achieve that effect.

To use Michael’s descriptions :-

>>> “I hear the organ play. Now I want to hear it play with more of the room, now I want to focus in on one pipe, now that one pipe but bring in the harmonics that surround that pipe...and on it goes.” <<<

>>> “and if someone becomes good at detecting what parts going out of tune sound like it makes it easy to go to the part of the system that is messing up and get it back intune with everything else.

Tunees get use to listening to parts and the different parts of their systems and after a while can pretty much guess where the tuning needs to happen for a recording to go where they want it to. It's very much like playing in a band, you make adjustments till everything is just right.” <<<

>>> “to give the widest range possible in the adjusting and flavoring department so the listener can tune in the sound they desire or adapt to a recording they may be having problems with.” <<<

>>> “Circuit Boards. The ones I have done have a few treatments and once done are put into a variable setting so the listener can make adjustments.” <<<

So from my knowledge of the audio industry the descriptive word of ‘tweaks’ is given to things which so many people can’t believe can affect ‘sound’.

Even different cables and different AC power cords are regarded as “tweaks”. As are support tables, equipment feet (wooden blocks, cones, spikes), different fuses, etc. They are described as ‘tweaks’ even though they can be variable (as in positioning or removing them) but once fixed, placed, fitted, they are usually left in place and not used as ‘variable’ but more permanent techniques.

Such as the ‘freezing’ technique, the demagnetising technique, colouring the edge of CDs, applying treatments to CDs and LPs, etc are more ‘fixed’ tweaks.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
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Time to start keeping a log
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

"There has been no proof that taking the component apart has any influence at all on the sound."

First line in your post. Nothing about fat. Pretty clear. I knew I would get spin. Unbelievable.

Geoff, you do realize a lot of people read these posts, don't you that are probably wondering what's with this guy. No skin off my nose. .

I suspect you are not following the discussion very closely as it was Michael who referred to dismantling the component, you know, reducing mass, as removing the fat. Maybe you should give serious consideration to just dropping out of this thread. Now, if you are still claiming I'm demanding proof from Michale while not providing proof for my own products, I have already answered that accusation: no proof can be obtained by listening tests. Would you like me to draw a picture?

Yes, I realize folks will be reading this thread. That is why I suggest you start keeping a log. So you don't appear like a cheerleader and troll.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
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Tuning vs Tweaking
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

The only way to get to the root cause that you and May talk about is to get to the roots. From a design point of view in this industry or any other you have to take apart to explore, or you have to create. So unless you created the amp your using the only way to see how it responds is to take it down to the core and study the design from the ground up. If your not doing this how would you know how the different parts and pieces are interacting? It appears that your throwing tweaks ontop of stock, and that's not really exploring the signal path.

proof

That's a problem that people have who haven't done. I feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening.

my way or the highway?

How in the world is tuning "my way or the highway"? Tuning is the biggest and oldest musical technology there is. I'm just on board with the most proven technology, and enjoying the ride.

Geoff said

"I have already made it quite clear I am not a disciple of Tuning"

mg

Than your not a real designer or tweak. There's not one designer in this entire industry who doesn't tune, even if it is a fixed voicing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Well, I actually agree there is a fine line between tuning and tweaking or even modding. But when I use the word Tuning I am actually referring to your whole, uh, program, the TUNELAND suite of tuning things. The overlap between tuning and tweaks even extends to springs. You say tuning, I say tuning out the vibrations. And you remove transformers while I treat transformers, so we both agree on the harm that transformers inherently cause. But I have a few tricks up my sleeve and what exactly I'm doing INSIDE the components, well, that's between me and my hairdresser. ;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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I'm still waiting for an answer
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

The only way to get to the root cause that you and May talk about is to get to the roots. From a design point of view in this industry or any other you have to take apart to explore, or you have to create. So unless you created the amp your using the only way to see how it responds is to take it down to the core and study the design from the ground up. If your not doing this how would you know how the different parts and pieces are interacting? It appears that your throwing tweaks ontop of stock, and that's not really exploring the signal path.

proof

That's a problem that people have who haven't done. I feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening.

my way or the highway?

How in the world is tuning "my way or the highway"? Tuning is the biggest and oldest musical technology there is. I'm just on board with the most proven technology, and enjoying the ride.

Geoff said

"I have already made it quite clear I am not a disciple of Tuning"

mg

Than your not a real designer or tweak. There's not one designer in this entire industry who doesn't tune, even if it is a fixed voicing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

All of the semantics aside, I'm still waiting for an answer from you regarding the use of PWB and Machina Dynamica products in your testing, which you alluded to a couple days ago. If you don't know if you did use them just say you don't know. If you did use them in testing I'd be very curious which ones you're referring to and how you obtained them.

Tuning is the most proven technology? Surely you jest. Haven't you been following the discussion on evidence vs proof? You also say about proof: That's a problem that people have who haven't done. I feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening." Well, I suspect we all feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening (as pompous as that might sound) but that nice warm fuzzy feeling is not to be interpreted as proof. The scientific method doesn't give extra points to warm and fuzzy feelings. You and Toledo are going to drive me to post some long professorial tutorial on evidence and proof. Look out!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff,

Geoff,

How many times have we said we use listening as our guideline? Hel-lo (to steal one of your favorites)
Listening is what we do and we don't dismiss the ideas of others by stating there is no proof. Sound familiar.

BTW, I am a cheerleader for tuning. It works for me after many years of using traditional high end audio products and not being able to listen to all my music as I would like. Where are your cheerleaders .. Sorry cheap shot.

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You're beginning to see it my way
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

How many times have we said we use listening as our guideline? Hel-lo (to steal one of your favorites)
Listening is what we do and we don't dismiss the ideas of others by stating there is no proof. Sound familiar.

BTW, I am a cheerleader for tuning. It works for me after many years of using traditional high end audio products and not being able to listen to all my music as I would like. Where are your cheerleaders .. Sorry cheap shot.

You said you use listening as a guideline. I agree. It is a guideline. But it's not proof. I knew we'd finally agree on something. Now, don't come back telling me that listening is proof of cryo, freezing, creams, CD treatments, vibration control, vibration isolation, springs, or Tuning. Proof they work or proof they don't work. As long as you're happy I'm happy. ;-). By the way, as it turns out I don't need cheerleaders. As far as your bad experiences go with the industry, and you'll have to pardon me for saying so, but you make it all sound a lot like Scientology.

Rah rah rah sis boom bah

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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One man's Scientology is

One man's Scientology is another man's Morphic Resonance.

Boom Shakalaka boom

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tune or tweak

Catch said

I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference between tweaking and tuning. What constitutes a tweak and what constitutes a tune? For example, would placing an Mpingo disc on a cable be a tweak or is it tuning?

mg

Tweaking, in high end audio started off as making adjustments, and as time went on it became a name for products that were more of a fixed sound nature, mosting products that used dampening or spot treating.

Tuning, is the method of aligning oscillation between all the mechanical parts, waves and fields.
_____________________________________

Tweak products can be used in tuning but tuning itself is the variable method of putting something "in-tune".

So lets say you were using Mpingo disc to change the sound. A tweak would be if you picked a ramdom or fixed place to put the disc vs tuning where you would go up and down the cable till you found the place where the disc and cable oscillated (harmonized) together.

Tuning is not fixing things to a set point, it's the blending of things together and being able to make the variable adjustments as conditions or the signal changes or the listener wants to shape the harmonics and vibrations of the recorded info.

Not always, but often you'll see tweaking as dampening the vibrations. With tuning you are tuning the vibrations together, using them instead of killing them off.

michael green
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Ouch. Very ouch!
toledo wrote:

One man's Scientology is another man's Morphic Resonance.

Boom Shakalaka boom

Hey! No fair hitting below the Belt.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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egos

Toledo said

"Michael,

You have the patience of a saint dealing with Geoff. But, I wonder if you will ever get a rational discourse with him. Nothing but spin and deflection.

I think working with May has more potential to discuss her products and ideas and see if they are a good fit for tuning."

mg

Thanks Toledo, comes with the territory of audio egos. Yesterday I needed to look at something at the metal shop (springs and hangers) and my assistant brought her kids with her. It started to get close to closing and the workers locked one set of doors at one end of the shop and left the other opened at the other end. They made the announcement over the PA, and put a use the other door sign on the door. At the end of our business, she started to guide her kids to the door. Her daughter said "mom that's the locked door", but instead of turning and going to the other door based on the info, she walked all the way up to the locked door and tried it, of course having to turn around with a smirk and laugh as she headed for the opened door.

My designing and whole music career has been based on getting to that open door, and once getting there helping others get to the other side of it. It's not as much based on making a living as finding how to get closer to the music. I'm not going to defend my product or anyone elses if it does not do what is needed for me, and that is finding all the music in all the recordings. For me, it's absolutely got to be about the listening and the trusting of my ears along with others who I have referenced with. All the other stuff is smoke and mirrors if the transparency of the designers systems is not there. Proof is in the listening, and when people stop listening they start talking, trying to convince others that they know what their doing. They twist their words around so that they don't have to head toward the listening proof. But as people read they can tell who the listeners are and who they aren't.

So I'm not sure if it's patience or being glad that they keep giving us the open door to share what we are hearing. The worst that's going to happen for us Toledo, is that people are going to put what we are talking about to the test, and that happens to be the best thing that could happen to us :)

michael green
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okie dokie Geoff

Geoff said

"All of the semantics aside, I'm still waiting for an answer from you regarding the use of PWB and Machina Dynamica products in your testing, which you alluded to a couple days ago. If you don't know if you did use them just say you don't know. If you did use them in testing I'd be very curious which ones you're referring to and how you obtained them."

mg

I didn't know their names Geoff, as I just am there to listen and tune. And I had to go back to some folks and ask who's products those were that I listened to. I still don't know all the names so sorry if this is not correct. But part of this was using Rainbow Foil, bowls, crystals, creams, bladders, spray treatments, other liquids, rubbery materials, plug in resonators, clock devices (more than one), fuses, cones, springs, demaggers, tube socks and a bunch of other stuff.

Most of my testing is done by audiophiles, musical instrument makers, audio designers, studio engineers or science dudes who send me things to play with or invite me to their places. I don't make it a point to follow all the goodies out there (too busy) but I do give a good testing to the products that come my way, whether they be a musical instrument tweak, studio, commercial or audiophile. There have been times that I think I get more stuff than the reviewers lol. I guess for some reason I have become a bit of a reviewer for the people using products that don't know how they work or what they really sound like or how to use them. For example you mention your isolation table. I've had over 10 different ones that use air. One of them was a compression table that had hanging spring isolators that were mounted to arms attached to the table. I could draw you a picture of it sometime if you wanted to play with this for your designs. It was pretty cool to be honest, but even it gave a particular flavor to components.

This is why I talk about isolation the way I do. I've never seen or heard any tool completely separate itself from the mechanics, except for one and it was at a space program demo that I got invited to. What they did was cool. They used regulated air pressure and suspended the objects without touching anything but the air. I can't imagine an audiophile using this LOL, at least not until one is made on a mini scale. So Geoff, when I see springs I still see transfer devices and not de-coupling or isolation (in the complete sense).

Geoff and May, I'm not your enemy, I'm really not. I've had the opportunity to see and test a lot of stuff, and am more of a student than anything. I'm fasinated by how sound works and have again had the opportunity to maybe be in the right places at the right times, I don't know, but as a collective of all the things I've been able to do and be apart of I have found that there is yet another chapter to this hobby. It's the tuning part. This doesn't mean anything you guys are doing is bad, it only means that we go after these things in a variable way. For us it's not theory as much as it is making products that actually are variable. Variable by moving them around yes, but also build to be variable, as in variably tunable speakers and acoustics and now before too long Amps. TuneLand spells it out better cause you can see the people in use.

So, if you guys feel I have over looked a design or product of yours I'm more than happy to play with it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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proof

Geoff said

"Tuning is the most proven technology? Surely you jest. Haven't you been following the discussion on evidence vs proof? You also say about proof: That's a problem that people have who haven't done. I feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening." Well, I suspect we all feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening (as pompous as that might sound) but that nice warm fuzzy feeling is not to be interpreted as proof. The scientific method doesn't give extra points to warm and fuzzy feelings. You and Toledo are going to drive me to post some long professorial tutorial on evidence and proof. Look out!"

mg

Do it, you should start a thread on proof and how you feel people reach it, why not. That's why this forum is here.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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In space nobody can hear you scream

Michael wrote,

"This is why I talk about isolation the way I do. I've never seen or heard any tool completely separate itself from the mechanics, except for one and it was at a space program demo that I got invited to. What they did was cool. They used regulated air pressure and suspended the objects without touching anything but the air. I can't imagine an audiophile using this LOL, at least not until one is made on a mini scale. So Geoff, when I see springs I still see transfer devices and not de-coupling or isolation (in the complete sense)."

Well, of course anyone can using regulated air pressure to create the illusion of suspension. In fact that is what air bearing tonearms and air bearing platters do. But there are forces involved with the pressurized air so it is not perfect at all, and there is also the air in the room to contend with, you know, through which acoustic vibration is transferred in the room. So, no, the demo you witnessed was not the magic trick you thought you saw. The LIGO experiment, the experiment to detect and observe gravity waves from the Big Bang I mentioned earlier uses MUCH MORE effective and complex engineering than NASA ever contemplated in the demo. There is no such thing as perfect isolation. And all isolation devices are filters. You know, like speaker crossovers are filters. Except that Isolators, like springs and air bladders (under load) are mechanical low pass filters. Make sense?

Michael also wrote,

"I didn't know their names Geoff, as I just am there to listen and tune. And I had to go back to some folks and ask who's products those were that I listened to. I still don't know all the names so sorry if this is not correct. But part of this was using Rainbow Foil, bowls, crystals, creams, bladders, spray treatments, other liquids, rubbery materials, plug in resonators, clock devices (more than one), fuses, cones, springs, demaggers, tube socks and a bunch of other stuff."

So, I'm confused, Michael, why would you mention my products and May's if you were not really involved? You apparently don't even know which of my products was involved, if one even was. How could you even begin to make a judgement about any of those tweaks with all those things in the room? Just curious, that's all.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff's questions

Geoff said

"There is no such thing as perfect isolation. And all isolation devices are filters. You know, like speaker crossovers are filters. Except that Isolators, like springs and air bladders (under load) are mechanical low pass filters. Make sense?"

mg

That's what I was saying Geoff. I don't find any audiophile isolation as being something that completely separates the signal from the mechanics.

Geoff said

"I didn't know their names Geoff, as I just am there to listen and tune. And I had to go back to some folks and ask who's products those were that I listened to. I still don't know all the names so sorry if this is not correct. But part of this was using Rainbow Foil, bowls, crystals, creams, bladders, spray treatments, other liquids, rubbery materials, plug in resonators, clock devices (more than one), fuses, cones, springs, demaggers, tube socks and a bunch of other stuff."

So, I'm confused, Michael, why would you mention my products and May's if you were not really involved? You apparently don't even know which of my products was involved, if one even was. How could you even begin to make a judgement about any of those tweaks with all those things in the room? Just curious, that's all."

mg

Sorry you got the impression I wasn't involved. Yes, I was in on the testing. Usually at these tests I like it better when I'm not told any names or specifics until after testing is done, if ever. I like keeping my thoughts cleared when listening so I ussually don't pay attention to the who's and why's till after all the results are in. I also am not crazy about naming specific brands as much as possible. I'm not here or anywhere to take away from someones livelihood.
_____________________________________________

Geoff

" How could you even begin to make a judgement about any of those tweaks with all those things in the room?"

mg

Sorry Geoff, I'm not following you here.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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LIGO isolation

http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/advLIGO/scripts/subsystems_sei.shtml

Correct me If I am wrong, but isn't LIGO designed for seismic isolation? Things are a little different for audio applications due to air borne vibrations from playback.

Given the assumption that you can never truly isolate a component from air borne influences or other internal component vibrations, better to have a strategy to use the vibrations as an advantage and open up the system instead of over dampening it. The tuning aspects kicks in later to get the desired result at both the signal and acoustic level.

Discuss at your leisure.

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a big audio circle

Hi Toledo

The interesting part of these threads to me is that they all end in a circle. First someone starts with isolation to prove their point, then after back and forths go on forever we end up with the fact that in audio there is really no such thing as isolation.

If we go through all of these tweaks we would find the same thing, energy is interactive and therefore is tunable. Too much of anything causes distortion and too little does as well. A lot of audiophile designers have a desire to hold the golden key that will give the "fix" for the hobby, but there is no such thing cause the hobby is like energy, in motion, and this makes tuning the only truly accurate way to get to a dependable place for that particular listening momment. Even though this is what music is all about, the "stuck" engineering type brain can not deal with a rotating, gravity based planet. They play against this stacked deck to the end probably because it is an opinionated ego driven industry. In the end it comes down to a listener, and a system and the most important part, the music. You notice though that the music is the last thing talked about. As May would say "A CLUE". It's not a clue or a fixed product, it's vibration and how that vibration is used.

Watch these designers try to work their way around this, as if they have the perfect stopping point between where the materials vibrations end and the audio signal begins. Nothing on the planet works this way BTW, but they will spin their words to build the case for their products as if they have the power to do anything more than a particular setting. What's more important is notice not one of these folks address the differences in recordings or personal taste with a plan to get there. They say "better" as if this means anything. Better than what? and, What else changed? They use the words of the whole but can't deliver. We keep asking them questions that refer to the music being in one sound setting and ask how do they get from that setting to another, and their answer is "better". Not once have they been able to describe getting from one sound to the next, like a guitar slightly changing the tension on a string. They even say things like "Tuning is the most proven technology? Surely you jest." These are people making products that are about changing the music and they don't understand or acknowledge the science behind making the music make sense. They treat vibration as something to get rid of as if vibration and music were two different things that could and should be divided from each other. Yet they can't divide them like separating the yoke from the white. So you have these folks fighting to see who can get noticed for coming close, instead of working together on what musical instruments have been demostrating since the beginning, the science and art of tuning. They can't explain using energy, instead of displacing or disfiguring it. Tuning is so simple, open it up and tune it in. A proven technology for the ages, but can this industry get their minds around this, even with musical instrument shops all around them thriving with this technology, as stereo stores become extinct. The answer sits right in front of them but this industry is going to push "fixed" sound until they aren't around any more. All this industry needs to do is start practicing the very thing that makes music, but these "huge egos" can't do it. Thay can't move away from the ego driven idea that they may be the chosen one that sets my people free. Their going to keep walking around in this wilderness until enough of them picks up a screw driver and makes a turn. They play in this little pond of tweaks when the entire industry and hobby is waiting to be made variable. They say "did you hear that" as if it was a big change when those who really have set their systems free and tuned them back in are at and in a completely didn't hobby.

blows the mind

Tuning has been right in front of their faces and their pride won't let them take the step, then they still ask "why is high end dying? High end audio is dying because they are not delivering what musical instruments do and are built to do, provide in-tune musical notes.

If your music doesn't sound right you have no excuse. You can talk all you want, everyone else is, or you can jump in with a bunch of music lovers who have made the connection between the music and the equipment that plays it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Seismic isolation
toledo wrote:

http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/advLIGO/scripts/subsystems_sei.shtml

Correct me If I am wrong, but isn't LIGO designed for seismic isolation? Things are a little different for audio applications due to air borne vibrations from playback.

Given the assumption that you can never truly isolate a component from air borne influences or other internal component vibrations, better to have a strategy to use the vibrations as an advantage and open up the system instead of over dampening it. The tuning aspects kicks in later to get the desired result at both the signal and acoustic level.

Discuss at your leisure.

When I use the word isolation I am referring to seismic isolation. Seismic isolation refers to filtering out as best one can the low frequency vibration as well as higher frequency vibration coming up into the component from the floor and building structure. It is the very low frequency vibration that causes the most damage, which is why the airborne vibrations are secondary, but I do not entirely dismiss them. So, we have already gone over what produces the very low frequency vibration that is causing the tonearm to resonate, the cartridge, the platter, the laser assembly in the CD player, the internal wiring, the electronic elements (capacitors, etc.), chassis, etc. The Earth's crust constant motion around 0 to 10 Hz, traffic, wind, wave action near the shore, speaker feedback, footfall, these are the biggest culprits. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Once you isolate your turntable or CD player from seismic isolation you will find (uh, hear) that, eureka!, airborne vibrations must not be that important. Especially in my case, you know, what with the headphone system and all. :-). The way seismic isolation works, since it acts like a low pass filter, is it is less effective for the lowest frequencies of vibration, but gets more effective as the frequency of vibration rises. Thus, a very good iso system with resonant frequency of say 3 Hz will be only about 50% effective at 6 Hz but will be around 99% effective at 20 Hz. I actually have a Dual layer iso system, two layers of heavy masses and two layers of springs, that is a stronger filter than a single layer system, for example. The LIGO iso system, because their requirements are so demanding, incorporate many stages of isolation, and many different types of iso systems to achieve extremely low resonant frequencies and very strong mechanical filters - I.e., very steep dB/octave slopes. Sound familiar? That's because the seismic isolation filter characteristics are analogous to audio, for the speaker electronic filters, you know, which are 6 dB/octave or 12 dB/octave slopes, generally speaking. For audio systems we have the further indignity of having the components themselves produce vibration, you know, things like transformers, CD transport motors, capacitors, turntable platter bearings. It is actually not a particularly good idea to let those vibrations run free, either.

So, actually things are not any different for the LIGO project and audio systems. Both have to isolate the sensitive electronics and optics from the very low frequency vibration, especially in the range 0 to 20 Hz, which as it turns out, is considerably below the capabilities of virtually ALL speakers, which is why airborne vibrations is a secondary concern compared to seismic vibration. This is why, as I showed in some photos of LIGO vertical isolation mass on spring systems, the technique they employ is actually the same one employed for audio systems. I.e., the ubiquitous mass on spring system, the same type found in Vibraplane, my air spring Nimbus platform, Bright Star air bladder system, bicycle inner tube system, tennis ball system, Bungee cord systems, mechanical spring systems like mine, things of that nature.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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The difference between proof and evidence
michael green wrote:

Geoff said

"Tuning is the most proven technology? Surely you jest. Haven't you been following the discussion on evidence vs proof? You also say about proof: That's a problem that people have who haven't done. I feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening." Well, I suspect we all feel comfortable with our findings and enjoy practicing the science and art of listening (as pompous as that might sound) but that nice warm fuzzy feeling is not to be interpreted as proof. The scientific method doesn't give extra points to warm and fuzzy feelings. You and Toledo are going to drive me to post some long professorial tutorial on evidence and proof. Look out!"

mg

Do it, you should start a thread on proof and how you feel people reach it, why not. That's why this forum is here.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Let me say this about that. Proof is established when a phenomenon behaves the same or is true for all cases. This is why in science there is the idea of repeatability. This repeatability issue was the problem with Cold Fusion, the experiment could not be repeated by other scientists. In the case of Cryoing CDs and freezing CDs, it's the same situation. We have a group that swears up and down that it doesn't work or hurts the sound and another group that says it improves the sound. That situation, lacking repeatability, is why there is no proof, in the scientific sense. Casual listening doesn't really qualify as a scientific experiment, though we might wish to think so, with all the rules for the scientific method adhered to.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Michael wrote,

Michael wrote,

"The interesting part of these threads to me is that they all end in a circle. First someone starts with isolation to prove their point, then after back and forths go on forever we end up with the fact that in audio there is really no such thing as isolation."

Michael, you and Toledo have not been paying close attention. The thread started with your questions regarding treating transformers and about my constrained layer damper. Then, after I posted a photo of my headphone amp, you jumped to the conclusion I was resting the amp on my damper. I responded to that by saying that, no, the amp is not resting on the damper, the amp is isolated with high mass (marble) and mechanical springs. That's how we wound up on the subject of isolation. So, the thread isn't really going in a circle it's going in a straight line. Now, I asked the other day, when are we going to get back to the subject of this thread, treating the transformer and how to use constrained layer damping effectively? I am only trying to help you. I assume at some point you two are willing to listen to reason, no?

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

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The circle game and the Backfire Effect

Michael wrote,

"The interesting part of these threads to me is that they all end in a circle. First someone starts with isolation to prove their point, then after back and forths go on forever we end up with the fact that in audio there is really no such thing as isolation."

Michael, you and Toledo have not been paying close attention. The thread started with your questions regarding treating transformers and about my constrained layer damper. Then, after I posted a photo of my headphone amp, you jumped to the conclusion I was resting the amp on my damper. I responded to that by saying that, no, the amp is not resting on the damper, the amp is isolated with high mass (marble) and mechanical springs. That's how we wound up on the subject of isolation. So, the thread isn't really going in a circle it's going in a straight line. Now, I asked the other day, when are we going to get back to the subject of this thread, treating the transformer and how to use constrained layer damping effectively? I am only trying to help you. I assume at some point you two are willing to listen to reason, no?

This thread seems to be as good as any for illustrating one of my favorite things, the Backfire Effect. I am officially adding the Backfire Effect to my list of cognitive anomalies frequently displayed on audio forums. The Backfire Effect is simply what often happens when a person is confronted with an opposing view, as we have seen in the case of isolation. The Backfire Effect is when a person's belief becomes even stronger in the face of contradictory evidence. This is precisely why you see so few audiophile conversions, as it were, so few people saying things such as, I used to be a power cord naysayer but now Im a power cord believer or, I used to think the whole idea of wire directionality was hogwash but yesterday I reversed my interconnects and wow, I can't believe the difference!

Geoff Kait,
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On the subject of air

Michael wrote,

"Most of my testing is done by audiophiles, musical instrument makers, audio designers, studio engineers or science dudes who send me things to play with or invite me to their places. I don't make it a point to follow all the goodies out there (too busy) but I do give a good testing to the products that come my way, whether they be a musical instrument tweak, studio, commercial or audiophile. There have been times that I think I get more stuff than the reviewers lol. I guess for some reason I have become a bit of a reviewer for the people using products that don't know how they work or what they really sound like or how to use them. For example you mention your isolation table. I've had over 10 different ones that use air. One of them was a compression table that had hanging spring isolators that were mounted to arms attached to the table. I could draw you a picture of it sometime if you wanted to play with this for your designs. It was pretty cool to be honest, but even it gave a particular flavor to components."

Yes, I'm familiar with the attenuators you're referring to for isolation tables, usually but not always from Newport Corp., the Mothership for commercial isolation products. I have been designing isolation devices for almost twenty years. My, how time flies. My iso systems have been in systems described as the best at the show as well as the best anywhere by high level audio reviewers. I would disagree if I could. As for devices that contain air, they are primarily mass on spring systems, you know, as air is a compressible gas. So air bladders, air springs, bicycle inner tubes, tennis balls, etc. act like springs, just like them. Honest. Air springs even have measurable spring rates just like metal springs. This is why air springs come in different sizes and different internal pressures, since the spring rate is related to the mass of the load on the spring and the resonant frequency desired. The only air contraption that doesn't act like a spring off the top of my head would be those air levitation systems used in floating tonearms and turntable platters - air bearings. One thing we haven't discussed yet, which is also an interesting approach, one which I'm pretty sure you can see the utility of, and that is the magnetic levitation system, mag lev for short. You don't feel like I'm schooling you too much, one hopes. While we're only the subject the Minus K iso device for audiophiles is yet another technology audiophiles use these days, one based on the idea of negative stiffness, capable of achieving sub Hertz performance, a resonant frequency below 1 Hz. I trust, after my long winded explanation you can see the advantage for seismic isolation, no? Maybe Toledo can even if you can't. There are many ways to skin a cat. But leaving the vibrations alone is not one of them. It's has a new age kind of ring to it, what with let the vibrations be free and all that, but this is after all the 21st century. Time to recognize the utility of the technology that is there for seismic isolation. Shucks, if you wish to be cheap about it there is always fishing line, bungee cords, big elastic bands, those Slinky like long springs, imagination rules in the field of seismic isolation. As I said, you are already an isolationist what with the springs and all. We're only having a semantics argument about them. You might say you're a closet isolationist. It's OK to come out now. There is no stigma. ;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Backfire effect

The issue of the Backfire effect has been brought up a few times as an argument that someone will hold onto their belief even more strongly when presented with contrary evidence.

This effect doesn't tell you much unless the contrary evidence is indisputably true.

Geoff, It could be argued that you are also a victim of this effect in the manner you are attempting to use it in this audio discussion.

Since there is no indisputably true evidence on either side, do you really think it applies?

Most people do not start out tuning ... it generally is found after a long and bumpy road of trying many traditional audiophile techniques. There is a huge after market of tools that are supported by audiophiles and manufacturers are more than willing to provide the "fix" we have all craved to improve our system.

We have tried many of these and have reached the conclusion that less is not more. Bandaid after bandaid has not worked for us.

The point I am making is we have tried some of the things you are suggesting and have informed listening evidence to back our choices not to use them. As new tech is introduced, I am sure we will look into it.

The way I see it, Tuning and tweaking are complementary. We may never agree on vibration control and dampening, but, there is ample room for other shared ideas.

For example we both use springs and see its benefits.

I would suggest you try some tuning techniques to get informed of them which would make for a more productive discussion and identify where both camps can use each others ideas.

You have tried heat treated cds and found some improvements. So maybe we are not crazy after all ;)

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Backfire Effect and beyond

Your fearless leader wrote the other day,

"I support a lot of products that fit into our goals. I also am truly happy when someone finds what they want. I don't play those games, and neither do the other tunees. You can intepret this any way you wish."

I interpret it as ye olde not invented here philosophy.

I'm sure I have been guilty of the Backfire Effect at least once, but not since 1987. Besides the Backfire Effect is what is happening right now with the notion on the Tunees' part that damping is somehow equivalent to over damping and that springs are somehow tuning and not isolation. It's like the bizarro world, if you'll pardon me for saying so. I suspect perhaps, I'm I'm being a little dramatic, but a little de programming might be in order. The argument isn't about whether springs are audible it's about what is responsible for it, no? If it looks like denial and walks like denial it's probably denial. I'm only trying to help. If you would appreciate that springs are isolation you could then move forward and select springs of certain spring rates that are tailored to your specific requirements. You do see the logic of that, no? Didn't you ever think to yourself, "hey, that's weird, why does Michael suggest using springs for tuning, that's a weird shape for a tuning thingie." Looking at it another way, if there's one thing that science understands very well, there is no mystery about them at all, it's springs. And that is why you see springs used for vertical isolation in one of the most exacting scientific experiments of all time. Hel-loo!

I am not attacking Tuning per say, only the logic of your positions in some cases. See the difference?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Sprightly spring into action

Geoff,

You keep wanting to make this discussion all about springs and isolation, dont ya. Ooh you sense you have a gotcha moment dont cha ;)

I am the one that got you rolling on this when I made a comment about the photo of your amp and the marble/graphite/ceramic it rests on. I stated that you likely enjoy a detailed and focused based on the materials coupled to amp.

Where the jump to isolation began occurred when you apparently felt that the comment I made "infringed" upon your isolation goals since no upward movement of vibrations was possible through the springs.

We all know that the materials touching a component affect the sound irrespective of any isolation and my comment had nothing to do with isolation.

Lets move on, shall we.

How about dampening which was the OP and i'm sure we will have resounding agreement on ;)

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Isolation vs Floating

I'm pretty sure that Geoff is using "isolation" in the same way that Michael is using "floating" to describe his floor. But, you don't hear anyone jumping on the literal translation of "floating" because it's a stupid argument to make when you know it isn't meant to be totally literal.

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isolation vs floating

Just came out of a great listening session so haven't read the new posts yet except for Catch's. I'll get caught up but wanted to say that one of the big problems with a lot of these designers is they try to get people on board the absolute train, with them as the conductor, and music doesn't work that way. It's a variable, and it's a variable where all the parts and pieces rely on each other. They try to make their one piece (product) as a stand alone must, instead of a connected part of.

With our floating floors for example like Catch brought up. I don't know how other engineers look at them but I've always seen these as a variable, not as an absolute isolation of. The area that I tune for the piano is different than the area I tune for the string section. The platforms I make for the singers I tune differently when using them for a drum kit.

Also when making a building and dealing with the low frequencies, I (nor do the other people I work with) think for one second we are isolating the building from the ground even though the parts we use to align and dissipate the vibrations all have the labels of isolation in their names. There is no true "floating" or "isolation", everything affects everything else, and everything is a part of everything else. How we make them work together is the science of vibration. Not to remove the vibration, but to use it. To put vibration in a working place with all the other vibrations around, harmonizing.

michael green
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Logical fallacy alert!
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

You keep wanting to make this discussion all about springs and isolation, dont ya. Ooh you sense you have a gotcha moment dont cha ;)

I am the one that got you rolling on this when I made a comment about the photo of your amp and the marble/graphite/ceramic it rests on. I stated that you likely enjoy a detailed and focused based on the materials coupled to amp.

Where the jump to isolation began occurred when you apparently felt that the comment I made "infringed" upon your isolation goals since no upward movement of vibrations was possible through the springs.

We all know that the materials touching a component affect the sound irrespective of any isolation and my comment had nothing to do with isolation.

Lets move on, shall we.

How about dampening which was the OP and i'm sure we will have resounding agreement on ;)

You wrote,

"We all know that the materials touching a component affect the sound irrespective of any isolation and my comment had nothing to do with isolation."

"We all know." Priceless.

By the way, this is the third time I've called for the discussion to get back on track. Actually the OP was the transformer tweak I don't sell and the damper I do sell, to be accurate.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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OP

Actually the OP was about making you and May more transparent, so those of us listening can make a connection or not. My goal in this thread was to be able to see what you and May do by looking at what you and May are doing, and compare it against what others do, and then weigh one approach vs others.

My goal was to get rid of the spins and see who May and Geoff are, the systems they use and the tests they perform to make decisions. I wanted to do this because in exploring some of their products and methods I found that I was getting different results or at least what I and others were hearing were changes, but the word improvement was in question.

Certain questions when asked to both May and Geoff never get answered and I was wanting to know why. They both throw out a lot of schooling and if someone sees things different the teeth come out instead of their systems being put on the front line to show us. This to me seem extremely odd, as I'm used to getting to the music and referencing.

What's also odd to me is Geoff's attacks with these catchy phrases, that I haven't looked up yet, but find amusing, cause what he doesn't get yet is that he and May both have become my top salespeople this last month. My email is full of people saying how much sense tuning is making to them now, and how can they get started. What both May and Geoff don't get is all they are doing is talking people into trying tuning. They by not walking through their systems while making their comments about the "thousands" they have is looking suspicious. As I have been doing a little research the picture is becoming more clear. I didn't know that this Randi guy was brought into things because May and Geoff are under and have been under scrutiny for many years. This was news to me because I really didn't know who May and Geoff were. When starting to read reviews I saw that what they are doing on Stereophile is nothing new to them. They have been in the "snakeoil" defending business for a long time. I think, and I may be wrong, this is why they find it hard to see us as friends. It's sad to me to see this and even be a part of it, but I feel it's important to share tuning, so this will need to be a cross to bear that I'm hoping will someday stop.

People wonder why I keep one step away from audiophiles? Your reading why. Over the years I have seen two types, the audiophile and the listener. Listeners are audiophiles of course but there is a happiness about them that the odd engineer-ish audiophile-ish people don't get at all. Listeners become friends who welcome all into their musical enjoyment, audiophiles build these camps and clubs that are like churches on every corner saying they are worshiping the same God but will have nothing to do with each other, because they can't see God any bigger than their personal doctrine. To others they make their doctrine look like the biggest but they end up missing the overall while preaching their overall. You end up seeing all these audio camps with no one breaking through because they can't move in fear of being seen by their clubs members. If they were seen they would be seen as falling from grace and into the darkness. So what they do is try to paint the picture of anyone who is free from the chains of closed mindedness as someone who is a threat to convention. They practice their own form of wichcraft, claiming to save the world and they don't realize the world is already saved. They can tune in the sound they want any time they want to open up and tune in. listeners are doing it everyday and as each one does another begins. No judgement, just a method of opening up and tuning in to what they hear as right. They have others to then explore with and reference together. Something that scares the B-Jesus out of the audiophile churches, who keep talking their doctrine and never show what they are really doing in private. It's all talk and nothing but talk.

Music is waiting to be heard and the very people preaching their different audio doctrines aren't even listening.

My purpose for this thread was to bring like minds together, and May and Geoff seem to me at least to want nothing to do with it. Really guys, you can do all that talking and yet not walk us through your systems for us to explore them with you? That's weak!!

michael green
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Two strikes you're out

Michael, I provided a photo and you mistakenly thought the headphone amp was resting on the constrained layer damper even after I told you I use a spring based isolation system. Why on Earth would I give more ammunition to someone who cannot analyze my system correctly? And what of the things in my system you can't see in photos? How pray tell will you analyze them? Are you going to put on a Carnac the Magnificent turban and hold the envelope up to your forehead? I.e., The transformer treatments, the scattered laser light treatments, specialized coloring schemes on CDs and the CD tray, RFI/EMI absorbing materials strategically located inside my Oppo and headphone amp, directional fuses and interconnects, vibration control of capacitors, vibration control of CD transport, silver/gold contact enhancement for all electrical connections including electron tube pins, isolation of all circuit boards and transformers, extensive cancellation of magnetic fields throughout system, dual grounding system, window treatment including my Flying Saucers for Windows, Flying Saucers for Wall Outlets, PWB Cream Electret and PWB labels and Morphic foils, Super Intelligent Chip treated CDs, extensive application of WA Quantum Chips on capacitors, headphones, transformers, etc., tweaked circuit breaker box, to name a few.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Isolating the building

Michael wrote,

"Also when making a building and dealing with the low frequencies, I (nor do the other people I work with) think for one second we are isolating the building from the ground even though the parts we use to align and dissipate the vibrations all have the labels of isolation in their names. There is no true "floating" or "isolation", everything affects everything else, and everything is a part of everything else. How we make them work together is the science of vibration. Not to remove the vibration, but to use it. To put vibration in a working place with all the other vibrations around, harmonizing."

Your new age spirit of everything harmonizing is touching and your use of the expression the "science of vibration" seems sincere enough but perhaps an afternoon in the library will help qualm your fears that isolating vibrations from getting to the electronics will somehow interrupt the free flow of vibrations in the universe and shut down your sound. If vibrations were actually good for the sound wouldn't a shaker table improve the sound? Hmmmmm, a new idea for TuneLand perhaps. If a little vibration is good a lot would be great, no? You could call it Shake and Bake.

Technically you and your homies are missing something. As I've said already, the typical mass on spring isolation system is increasing effective as frequency of the structural vibration rises, so that for a typical iso stand for audio applications the vibrations at say 25 Hz are attenuated by 99.9%. No matter how you dodge and weave it's simply not true that vibration isolation doesn't stop vibrations. Get thee to a library.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Laughing Goat award for excessive puffery and plain silliness

Michael, I hereby award you the Laughing Goat for excessive puffery and plain silliness above the call of duty.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

"People wonder why I keep one step away from audiophiles? Your reading why. Over the years I have seen two types, the audiophile and the listener. Listeners are audiophiles of course but there is a happiness about them that the odd engineer-ish audiophile-ish people don't get at all. Listeners become friends who welcome all into their musical enjoyment, audiophiles build these camps and clubs that are like churches on every corner saying they are worshiping the same God but will have nothing to do with each other, because they can't see God any bigger than their personal doctrine. To others they make their doctrine look like the biggest but they end up missing the overall while preaching their overall. You end up seeing all these audio camps with no one breaking through because they can't move in fear of being seen by their clubs members. If they were seen they would be seen as falling from grace and into the darkness. So what they do is try to paint the picture of anyone who is free from the chains of closed mindedness as someone who is a threat to convention. They practice their own form of wichcraft, claiming to save the world and they don't realize the world is already saved. They can tune in the sound they want any time they want to open up and tune in. listeners are doing it everyday and as each one does another begins. No judgement, just a method of opening up and tuning in to what they hear as right. They have others to then explore with and reference together. Something that scares the B-Jesus out of the audiophile churches, who keep talking their doctrine and never show what they are really doing in private. It's all talk and nothing but talk."

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Lets get started

Somebody got your goat, Geoff ;)

It appears you are gun shy about discussing your system since you don’t think you will get a fair shake.

I guess I would be too in the contentious environment that seems to follow you around from forum to forum.
Hmm … do I see a pattern, here?

Since you don’t like photos which show materials and exactly where and how your techniques are applied , lets try it this way to get started.

These are the items you listed that, I assume, are used in your reference headphone system.
Not sure why window treatments are needed for head rig, but you can explain.

It would help us all if you could describe what these are, the materials used, where and how you apply these and describe in listening terms the improvements.

Some are are obvious in their intent, but for completeness I have included them and you can describe your listening impressions.

The reason i ask for materials is you list isolation of circuit boards and transformers which based on prior posts means cork, if i am correct.

transformer treatments
the scattered laser light treatments
specialized coloring schemes on CDs and the CD tray
RFI/EMI absorbing materials strategically located inside my Oppo and headphone amp
directional fuses and interconnects
vibration control of capacitors
vibration control of CD transport
silver/gold contact enhancement for all electrical connections including electron tube pins
isolation of all circuit boards and transformers
extensive cancellation of magnetic fields throughout system
dual grounding system
window treatment including my Flying Saucers for Windows
Flying Saucers for Wall Outlets
PWB Cream Electret and PWB labels and Morphic foils
Super Intelligent Chip treated CDs
extensive application of WA Quantum Chips on capacitors, headphones, transformers, etc.
tweaked circuit breaker box

Also, if anyone else has experience with these techniques, please join in.

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Shirley, you jest

Holy Toledo! Let me get this straight. You want me to explain the materials I use in all of my products and
explain how I use them in my system? Shirley, you jest.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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building designs & other stuff

Hi Geoff

speaking of building construction designs and installing iso systems

In building designs you have to go through several meetings and classes if wanting to be up to date on how the vibrations work to be able to work on projects. In the classes we cover a pretty wide range of isolation devices, how they work and techniques of using them. I'm not quite sure why you are making fun of or marginalizing these schools, or fun of me and the teachers and design companies who provided the info, but I don't think it's very cool. If you feel you have something these companies don't than you should come to these conventions and tradeshows and show them. But if all you can do is make fun of I think they would find this an insult.

I find these trade shows and classes pretty informative and you get to see the latest products in action. This has helped me quite a bit in understanding what I do with springs and other means of dissipating energy. Fortunately I live less than 3 miles from the Las Vegas Convention Center and have a forum, so I get to attentend almost any class, trade show or cenvention I like. The other great thing in living here is this is one of those towns that do the state of the art building and I get to go see things as they are being done. I also live a couple of miles from the industrial settings here, with every shop I could ever want for testing and samples. So, Geoff since I go to the shows that display and explain every form of isolation device known to man it seems and have access to samples for my own use, I doubt that I'm too far behind on the isolation learning curve.

Again when you and May attempt your takedowns of others in the same industry it would be good to get to know them first and see how much they really have done. So far between you and May combined you have shown one picture of any type of system being used in your listening and testing vs TuneLand having both http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and www.tuneland.info . I think the readers can do the math, even with you trying to make our industry into a joke by posting pics that are to make fun of the ones who are working every day to help them get better sound. This is disrespecting to the hobby and to the people who have been serious about the topics that contribute to the audio industry.

What's even more strange to me is why you or May would come on Stereophile to try to one up me or anyone like me, with my background and reputation and associations. I can see people like Catch questioning me cause he really doesn't know me or what I do, or Costin cause of his knowledge, or Bill and Dan because of their journey, but you and May? I would think you guys would have looked into finding the potentual kindred spirit in us, instead of creating an us vs them type of situation. I have to say I'm disappointed and had hoped you guys had more on the ball than what you are showing.

If you guys can't even show your systems and listening tests to the public how do you expect people to get past lumping you in the snakeoil category? Here I am trying to explore with you, and your posting pictures like a child Geoff. Do you think that builds confidence in you?

You guys are leaving me with more questions about your legitimacy than you are building a common bridge. I find that common bridge with folks through the art of listening and exploring as much as I possibly can about it the technologies I work with. You guys come off with this "the rest of the world doesn't know what we do" attitude. I have news for you two, there are major brains out there that work together and feed off of each other that is far bigger than this little piece of the pie you guys are living in. You guys are not conviencing this listener that you have something more than creating the same "fixed" sounds that everyone else claims to have. News flash, this industry is more than Jedi mind tricks when it comes down to what Toledo said "rubber meets the road", and it starts with your personal systems, cause that's what your potentual clients are listening to.

May talks about holes getting dug and you about backfire, as if you are turning peoples impression of me, but again what your doing is creating the open door for me to walk through and share more of my background, tests and listening. And with that the readers will see that I am "actively" involve in conventional research in the technology and science of audio and what affects it, not just in the audiophile world, but as a whole. If you guys have done this, than good for you, we will be coming to the same conclusions. Tuning is the answer. If you haven't than you'll keep doing your spins and trying to distract people from actually listening.

I would like to invite the both of you to the trade shows and conventions we have here, to share your knowledge. I'm not sure that they will want to be schooled either though, seeing they too have done what you do.

Can I say one more thing. You guys keep quoting the same reviews and references. You need new material. Do you have any idea of how many reviews and awards I have or the other designers have? Geoff you talk about being at a couple of rooms at a show. The biggest show we ever did we were in 110 rooms. Our first show we were in 80-some. My Lord, do you have any idea how many award winning rooms we have been in? I'm glad that both of you have recieved recognition, but that's the starting gate in this industry. We get the attention of some and then "show" our stuff. Show what we got as far as listeners. Show off our golden ears a little, and roll up our sleeves by getting in there with the listeners. May since I've been here, have you come up to help one listener?

there's more than talk guys, a whole lot more

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Where's the beef

Nice deflection there Geoff.

No trade secrets needed. We already know you use glass, cork, marble, graphite, ceramic, etc... That sort of thing.

You know what I'm talking about .. Let's gets some meat on the bone that we can discuss and how your techniques are used and how you use them to voice your system.

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the meat

Hi Toledo

I was typing while you were lol. That's what I say, come on guys show something?

I go to what up to 5-6 conventions a year on materials and construction, all of cover dissipation of energy through all the means available, and all Geoff can do is post grade school na na na na-s. I hate to say it but there's a whole lot of the industry that has gotten away with this type of behavior for a long time. They'll do anything to distract from the actual listening.

time to eat a meal guys, and stop with the snacks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Proprietary information
toledo wrote:

Nice deflection there Geoff.

No trade secrets needed. We already know you use glass, cork, marble, graphite, ceramic, etc... That sort of thing.

You know what I'm talking about .. Let's gets some meat on the bone that we can discuss and how your techniques are used and how you use them to voice your system.

Here are more materials and tricks that I can reveal. Keep in mind this is all very hush hush and should not go any further than here. Copper for Flying Saucer tweaks (in all rooms), multicolor strobe light for CDs, high carbon steel springs for isolation, African blackwood (Mpingo), viscoelastic material, tourmaline gun negative ions, invisible light absorbing material, color coded permanent inks for coloring CDs, color coded plastic dots for CD tray (Codename Turquoise II), Red X coordinate Pen from PWB, suspensions for cabling, 3M AB5100S, Walker Talisman demag device for CDs and cables, low frequency high permeability alloy for transformers, Tibetan temple bell for tuning all rooms,Teleportation Tweak, Cream Electret for all capacitors and wires, Herbies tube dampers x2 per tube, Quicksilver Gold contact enhancer and Marigo VTS dots. Last but certainly not least the Quantum Clip from PWB.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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