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The average family income before taxes is only a bit more than $50K....This 'modestly' priced item costs perhaps 10% of their income after taxes! That is one hell of a lot of money to most folk.

Stereophile is aimed at enthusiasts, not "most folk," so drawing statistical conclusion based on the population at large is misleading.

According to our most recent survey, in 2005, a typical Stereophile reader is a college-educated male with an annual household income >$120k, who has an investment in his audio system of approximately $15k. A $3500 disc player is not out of place in that context.

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You really have to get away from the pinkie in the air, elite, French wine swizzling snobs who think such a wild extravagance is modest. You need to get out more in the real world.

Is it even possible, JIMV, for you to post to this forum without being patronizing or insulting?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Michael Fremer was just reporting the state of affairs, not snubbing the middle class. From my experience JA is not an elitist he'd rather near perfect digital performance be much cheaper than it is and thus affordable to us all. It's just a sad fact of life that it is not.

First, if someone can afford a 100k piece of gear and they have the interest in doing so geographic distance is of very, very little importance. That goes even for gear that costs 1/5 of that price. I'm not that lucky but I don't begrudge that luxury (and let's be honest it is a luxury) to others.

Second, in my experience it is a fact that you CANNOT get absolutely top-shelf digital performance for roughly $3,000. The performance at that price can be wonderful, but SLIGHT flaws are to be expected. In my experience it cost at the very least $6,000 if not more to get really state of the art performance out of Red Book CD. Basically double, which makes the "moderately priced" description sadly accurate.

I read the reference to "moderately priced" and "relatively modest price" in this context as meaning relative to other SACD/CD players. And in this context, $3500 is a moderately priced (tending toward the mean or average amount) SACD/CD player. This point is further clarified by the comparison to an $8000 player in the same review.

Just to be clear, I do not read someone saying "relatively modest price" as meaning "cheap" or even "affordable" rather it is a

JIMV,

I'm well aware there are players that cost less just as you are aware that there are players that cost more. That makes the Marantz's price moderate and even "relatively modest".

You seem to be stuck on affordability. My point is that's not what the words used in the review are referring to.

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I do not believe they are elitists, I believe they are out of touch.............................

Aside from JA's measurements, this is a journal of subjective analysis. Each of us has views unique to our own situation. So, if you think you understand this, why do you continue to berate reviewers, rather than relate their statements to your particular situation? It is little different from knowing the specific taste in sound quality of one reviewer or another and interpreting reviews based on that knowledge.

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The price is a relationship with the buyer, not the specialness of the item reviewed.

Ah but the value of the item, the relationship of price to performance, is an issue for discussion.

Kal

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I do not believe they are elitists, I believe they are out of touch.............................

Aside from JA's measurements, this is a journal of subjective analysis. Each of us has views unique to our own situation.
Kal

I do not believe I am berating reviewers, but instead trying to nudge them in the choice of their words into a world closer to a lot of readers, one where $3500 is not a moderate amount of money.

Hitting Stereophile's editor and reviewers over the head with a sledgehammer by posting the same arguments over and over is not the same as nudging. Frankly, I find your approach as subtle as Rush Limbaugh's.

Ultimately, as I see it, you want us to accept your viewpoint and write as you'd have us write. But we do not write as someone would have us write. JA does not control us, or dictate what we will say. To the limits of our ability, we are free to report and honor our individual experiences in a responsible manner, and in ways that we feel will best serve readers.

You, of course, are free to use this forum to post over and over, trying to legislate your viewpoint on the magazine. That's the advantage of the democracy that John and Stephen have established in this forum. Do not expect, however, that as you hurl accusations at staff and writers, and make absolute pronouncements on everything from the economy to Stereophile's average reader to global warming, that you will get your way.

At the risk of repeating myself, I read and weigh every criticism directed toward me. When something resonates as valid, I take it into account, and proceed accordingly. When it does not, I note it and continue to speak my truth. With moderation, I might add.

jason victor serinus

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I do not believe I am berating reviewers, but instead trying to nudge them in the choice of their words....

The nudge was accomplished weeks ago. Perhaps pestering is a better word than berating for what you do.

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I have not asked anyone to change a word of the substance of their reviews, just tone down the condescension over price a smidgen.

There is no condescension, only a perspective that we do not share.

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I'll plead guilty to 'pestering'....

We already know about special pricing for gear to reviewers...do you folk also get to write off that cost as a business expense?

Does your audacity know no bounds? Are you sure you're not Rush Limbaugh's twin brother?

You want to know how we manage our income taxes? I think not.

Jim

All audio gear is intriniscally over priced, thing is luxury items in every market are overpriced. Is a Ferrari 10 times better that a Ford mustang GT ? is Screaming Eagle 20 times better than Robert Mondavi ? is a Blacnpain 500 times better than a Swatch ? is first class transatlantic worth $12,000 more than coach when your in the same plane ?

Stereophile is a middle class publication aimed at people who have careers and a disposable income to spend on this type of gear. Why is that such a difficult concept ? ive never once seen an article saying that a new CD player is more important than feeding your family !!

Get real and just enjoy the articles for what they are, fluffy info for big boys toys. I like it this way and do not want the latest WalMart $29 CD player featured !!

Alan

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years ago I wrote letters to the editor in the magazine. They didn't print them.

You should note that I publish letters that are critical of the magazine on a regular basis. However, I get at least 10x as many letters than I have room to print, so I don't think you can draw any conclusion from my not printing your letters, JIMV.

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I am not alone, you get many letters and comments on the issue of cost and value and you ignore them all.

That is incorrect. We routinely publish reviews of products that even you, JIMV, would define as "affordable." What seems to annoy you is that we don't stop publishing reviews of products that you personally regard as expensive.

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Limbaugh is often right.

Well at least you have a sense of humor, JIMV. I am still trying to reconcile Limbaugh's current pronouncements with those he made some years ago, when he strongly felt that people who criticize the president in time of war were committing treason.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Well, at least you did not say that Holmes and Lincoln were in good company.

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I think Limbaugh is in good company

You miss my point, JIMV. Rush Limbaugh has criticized our new president virtually non-stop since the Inauguration. Thus by his own words, Mr. Limbaugh should also be condemned, don't you think?

BTW, the First Amendment notes no exceptions to freedom of speech. I have no problem with Rush Limbaugh using his pulpit to criticize President Obama. I did have a problem with his wanting to deny that right to those who disagreed with him regarding the previous incumbent of the White House.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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treason is treason, even when dressed in the fig leaf of 'dissent'.

But dissent is not de facto treason, no matter how politically convenient it may be to pretend so. Five years ago, Rush Limbaugh equated dissent with treason; now he doesn't. That is "hypocrisy," and it is that hypocrisy to which I object.

Rush Limbaugh, of course, is no stranger to hypocrisy in that he strongly supported punitive prison sentences for illegal drug possession and use, until it came to his own illegal drug possession and use. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Am i the only one who doesnt give a rats ass about Limbaugh ?

Hes just a loud mouthed two faced drug addict.

Can we get back to hifi please

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The question revolves around the price of audio gear and the characterization of 'modest' or 'budget'. I am simply trying to understand how one can make that claim for a $3500 item.

No one made the claim the Marantz was a "budget" player, except you of course. The review suggests it may be aimed at people looking to upgrade from a budget player. You also conveniently removed

rush limbaugh is the pt barnum of our times. he is simply an entertainer and nothing more. pt sold hot air and snake oil, rush sells hot air and snake oil. rush's lunacy keeps him on the air. it is the risk we take in having the first amendment, and i wouldn't have it any other way.

Hi Tom,

Just an fyi - I have not commented on that radio personality and don't intend to - that topic was being discussed by some other people in this thread.

greetings michael: i too would prefer to avoid this odious topic, but have to admit that sometimes my pique at the silliness of all of this gets the better of me. i suppose that i should not make light of the fact that many people do take what that person says seriously. the constant attack method of argument is probably one consequence of his brand of entertainment.
by the way, back on topic, marantz seems to be making some kick-butt equipment these days. i hope to audition some in the next month or so when i head up to indy for business.

I owned the Marantz SA-14 years ago and that player was also built very well "despite its relatively modest price" to quote Mr. Fremer. This new SA-11S2 certainly appears to be worth an audition if you're in the market for an SACD player in this price range.

all of their recent products seem to get great reviews. for my part, i am interested in the sm11si amp they reviewed last year for about $3995. i need a little more lower bass control than i presently have. the review sounded so positive that it might do the job for me and the price seems reasonable if it sounds as good as they say.

I haven't heard the Marantz sm11si but this an interesting point from Mr. Fremer's review:

"The company's secret weapon in the fight for good sound at reasonable prices is the utterly noncorporate Ken Ishiwata, who, working out of his listening room in Eindhoven, The Netherlands, fine-tunes all Marantz designs aimed at discerning audiophiles."

and

"Working with the Marantz engineers in Japan, he came up with a series of improvements that brought the sound to a level Ishiwata felt should be possible for the asking price. Once that was accomplished, running a pair of SM-11S1s in bridged mode with the SC-11S1 produced "incredible speed and control," he told me. "That was fun," he said."

Fun! Imagine that.

i don't know about you, but a little fun would go down good right about now. don't think i can afford 2 right now, but 1 would be a good start. i think the level of this amp would match the rest of my system well. going further up the amp food chain would really be counterproductive without a serious upgrade in the rest of the system; speakers, preamp, etc.

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i don't know about you, but a little fun would go down good right about now.

I'm with you on that. From my perspective, among a host of other things, a hobby should be fun -- especially one whose purpose is the enjoyment of music.

I also agree that there

JIMV, for a conservative Ditto Person, why would you espouse such a proletarian point of reference?

If you want audio communism, just say so, but that is so liberal coming from you!

You should be ashamed. "From each reviewer according to your needs" is one step away from a commie pinko take over.

Make up your mind, either you are a free market conservative, or a communist sympathizer who is getting moral outrage over a reviewer calling a 3,500 dollar piece of gear moderately priced.

Maybe we should just set limits on how much a person can spend on his system and what langauge reviewers can use. Yeah, Limbaugh teaches us that!

Shouldn't you be cheering on the master earners who consider this to be maybe even low priced?

Ayn Rand would say that Stereophile is just serving its community. If that isn't you and you resent it, get thee to work!

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Make up your mind, either you are a free market conservative, or a communist sympathizer who is getting moral outrage over a reviewer calling a 3,500 dollar piece of gear moderately priced.

Perhaps I simply hope for accuracy in the choice of words in a review, obviously NOT a popular position...No matter the pretense, $3500 is not a modest sum, not even 'relatively modest'

Don't forget, though, that that reviewer plotzed over a broken 43,440 dollar CD player.

You are lucky he didn't call the Marantz an 'economy' model!

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Make up your mind, either you are a free market conservative, or a communist sympathizer who is getting moral outrage over a reviewer calling a 3,500 dollar piece of gear moderately priced.

Perhaps I simply hope for accuracy in the choice of words in a review...

And accuracy is what you got, JIMV. You can pay as much as $70k on an SACD playback system or as little as $150. So $3500 is indeed a "relatively modest price," just as Michael Fremer wrote.

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obviously NOT a popular position...

Oh please...

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No matter the pretense, $3500 is not a modest sum, not even 'relatively modest'

At least you are now admitting that Michael wrote "relatively modest," not just "modest" as you wrote previously. And as I have explained to you before, the concept of "value" is _subjective_ in that it is not transportable. Different people have different priorities on what to spend their money and how much to spend.

You obviously think that $3500 is a large sum of money to spend on a disc player, yet there are plenty of people who will pay that amount or even more. There is, for example, a discussion on this forum of the relative merits of the Ayre C7-xe CD player ($3500) and the Ayre C-5xe universal player ($5500). You might regard these prices as expensive, but as both players have sold well since they introduced, this suggests that they are fairly priced for what they have to offer.

With respect, rereading your posts both in this thread and elsewhere, JIMV, you are really trying to impose your personal definition of value on others and then complaining when the magazine doens't adopt your position as its own.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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With respect, rereading your posts both in this thread and elsewhere, JIMV, you are really trying to impose your personal definition of value on others and then complaining when the magazine doens't adopt your position as its own.

True, as does each and every writer on the magazine. Your writers have an attitude and opinion on the issue, so do I. Your point?

That is the idea of a opinion forum. It does not exist simply to agree with anything a writer says but to note disagreements as well. Your staff is first rate in actually reviewing product and music. They have a couple of affectations that annoy me, price and politics. My negative comment is limited to those areas. The review in this months issue on the Sugden was very informative. It listed the strengths and weaknesses of the unit and used a line that really applied "value for money", not a line of pretense but one that said something about the item being discussed. My respect remains for the audio expertise but the affectations about price and politics,... not so much.

As you all seem to have the same view on both issues, my attempts to modify such language is doomed to failure, as yours is to convince me that big bucks are not really so big and that leftist throw away lines in reviews are really necessary to describe audio product.

As we will disagree, continuing the disagreement beyond simply noting examples is beating that dead horse.

This has gone past beating the dead horse to beating the Vultures and then the maggots feeding off that dead horse...

At first, I too complained about the number of luxury items reviewed in Stereophile... but JA's 'readership income explanation' ended that debate for me months ago... You need to realize that Stereophile is not written for you (or me for that matter), but for consumers with very high income AND very high spending on audio items... to those readers, the description of the Marantz's price as relatively moderate is reasonable... to a Taxi driver making 40K, it is not (but that doesn't matter, since the Taxi Driver is not the intended reader of Stereophile)...

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With respect, rereading your posts both in this thread and elsewhere, JIMV, you are really trying to impose your personal definition of value on others and then complaining when the magazine doens't adopt your position as its own.

True, as does each and every writer on the magazine. Your writers have an attitude and opinion on the issue, so do I. Your point?

That is the idea of a opinion forum. It does not exist simply to agree with anything a writer says but to note disagreements as well. Your staff is first rate in actually reviewing product and music. They have a couple of affectations that annoy me, price and politics. My negative comment is limited to those areas. The review in this months issue on the Sugden was very informative. It listed the strengths and weaknesses of the unit and used a line that really applied "value for money", not a line of pretense but one that said something about the item being discussed. My respect remains for the audio expertise but the affectations about price and politics,... not so much.

As you all seem to have the same view on both issues, my attempts to modify such language is doomed to failure, as yours is to convince me that big bucks are not really so big and that leftist throw away lines in reviews are really necessary to describe audio product.

As we will disagree, continuing the disagreement beyond simply noting examples is beating that dead horse.

This has gone past beating the dead horse to beating the Vultures and then the maggots feeding off that dead horse...

At first, I too complained about the number of luxury items reviewed in Stereophile... but JA's 'readership income explanation' ended that debate for me months ago... You need to realize that Stereophile is not written for you (or me for that matter), but for consumers with very high income AND very high spending on audio items... to those readers, the description of the Marantz's price as relatively moderate is reasonable... to a Taxi driver making 40K, it is not (but that doesn't matter, since the Taxi Driver is not the intended reader of Stereophile)...

JHC!

We're just now getting clear of the outrage that the Polk RTi A1 sparked among the 'target' readers who were incensed that such valuable column space was wasted on a 350 dollar pair of speakers.

That, of course, preceded the riots that the Oppo digital player caused in the Hamptons. That was particularly tragic, coming on the heels of the 35 dollar Playstation review that caused the stock market crash.

Then, there's the Shanling 999 dollar CD player with the free receiver built in. I don't know what JA was thinking.

Put that together with some Paradigm Atoms and you're pissing away 1250 bucks for a system.

Heck, toss the Playstation together with the Audio Engine 2's and you'd have a 235 dollar digital rig, ready to play!

All of the above have been reviewed recently. I guess they are writing those reviews....for who?

Bloody Hell, does every freakin' review have to be written to please the proletariat?

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With respect, rereading your posts both in this thread and elsewhere, JIMV, you are really trying to impose your personal definition of value on others and then complaining when the magazine doens't adopt your position as its own.

True, as does each and every writer on the magazine. Your writers have an attitude and opinion on the issue, so do I. Your point?

That is the idea of a opinion forum. It does not exist simply to agree with anything a writer says but to note disagreements as well. Your staff is first rate in actually reviewing product and music. They have a couple of affectations that annoy me, price and politics. My negative comment is limited to those areas. The review in this months issue on the Sugden was very informative. It listed the strengths and weaknesses of the unit and used a line that really applied "value for money", not a line of pretense but one that said something about the item being discussed. My respect remains for the audio expertise but the affectations about price and politics,... not so much.

As you all seem to have the same view on both issues, my attempts to modify such language is doomed to failure, as yours is to convince me that big bucks are not really so big and that leftist throw away lines in reviews are really necessary to describe audio product.

As we will disagree, continuing the disagreement beyond simply noting examples is beating that dead horse.

This has gone past beating the dead horse to beating the Vultures and then the maggots feeding off that dead horse...

At first, I too complained about the number of luxury items reviewed in Stereophile... but JA's 'readership income explanation' ended that debate for me months ago... You need to realize that Stereophile is not written for you (or me for that matter), but for consumers with very high income AND very high spending on audio items... to those readers, the description of the Marantz's price as relatively moderate is reasonable... to a Taxi driver making 40K, it is not (but that doesn't matter, since the Taxi Driver is not the intended reader of Stereophile)...

JHC!

We're just now getting clear of the outrage that the Polk RTi A1 sparked among the 'target' readers who were incensed that such valuable column space was wasted on a 350 dollar pair of speakers.

That, of course, preceded the riots that the Oppo digital player caused in the Hamptons. That was particularly tragic, coming on the heels of the 35 dollar Playstation review that caused the stock market crash.

Then, there's the Shanling 999 dollar CD player with the free receiver built in. I don't know what JA was thinking.

Put that together with some Paradigm Atoms and you're pissing away 1250 bucks for a system.

Heck, toss the Playstation together with the Audio Engine 2's and you'd have a 235 dollar digital rig, ready to play!

All of the above have been reviewed recently. I guess they are writing those reviews....for who?

Bloody Hell, does every freakin' review have to be written to please the proletariat?

Those reviews may have been aimed at the few regular readers who are not extremely well off, or they may just have been items that the reviewers themselves were curious about... the fact that those items are the exception and not the rule, shows that the magazine is not aimed at those readers... when I'm curious about SOTA gear or just to see if 1 or 2 products I can afford are recommended, I read Stereophile... but when I want to read about more realistically priced items I generally look elsewhere... 5 years from now (or maybe 10 with the current economic crisis), when I'm in the the kind of income category of average Stereophile readers, then the mag may become more relevant to me... but for now I'll make do with the odd budget piece they review (though I should admit that every component in my affordable system was reviewed favorably by Stereophile)

Ajani: i think the magazine is also for people who aspire to own some of the equipment shown, either new or more realistically - used. although i like to support my local dealer as much as i can, there is equipment he does not carry that i like and other bargains i have found. in 2 years, the $4,000 cd player becomes the $2,000 or less cd player. the review from the magazine will be just as valid then as now. just a thought.

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"...but when I want to read about more realistically priced items I generally look elsewhere..."

Squeezebox Classic -> Audioquest G-Snake -> Benchmark DAC1 -> AKG K701

So, where would you have run into reviews of gear that is affordable enough for you to actually own?

Benchmark DAC1

AKG 701

Squeezebox

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"...but when I want to read about more realistically priced items I generally look elsewhere..."

Squeezebox Classic -> Audioquest G-Snake -> Benchmark DAC1 -> AKG K701

So, where would you have run into reviews of gear that is affordable enough for you to actually own?

Benchmark DAC1

AKG 701

Squeezebox

What was the point of that question? I said that Stereophile reviewed all my gear in my last post (which you so nicely edited).... And all my gear was reviewed in several other hifi mags btw... not just Stereophile...

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Ajani: i think the magazine is also for people who aspire to own some of the equipment shown, either new or more realistically - used. although i like to support my local dealer as much as i can, there is equipment he does not carry that i like and other bargains i have found. in 2 years, the $4,000 cd player becomes the $2,000 or less cd player. the review from the magazine will be just as valid then as now. just a thought.

Agreed... that makes sense... people who buy used gear will find value in seeing expensive reviews... but those people are not the ones who are going to be complaining repeatedly that Stereophile doesn't review enough affordable gear... my point which seems to have been lost totally is simply that we can argue till we are blue in the face with the Stereophile team about why they don't review cheaper gear, but that will not make any difference... All I'm saying is that we should accept that this mag mainly reviews luxury gear and stop complaining...

Sorry, my bad.

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Squeezebox Classic -> Audioquest G-Snake -> Benchmark DAC1 -> AKG K701

Sorry for going off topic, perhaps we need to...

Curious as to how the G-Snake fits in to what I believe would be a digital connection. Are you using just one of the G-Snake as a coaxial spdif cable?

RG

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Squeezebox Classic -> Audioquest G-Snake -> Benchmark DAC1 -> AKG K701

Sorry for going off topic, perhaps we need to...

Curious as to how the G-Snake fits in to what I believe would be a digital connection. Are you using just one of the G-Snake as a coaxial spdif cable?

RG

A G-snake an analog cable and is NOT a 75 ohm cable optimized for video or digital audio. It would certainly reduce performance by increasing jitter.