You didn't mention what else (besides bass traps) you have done to try to tame all those hard reflective surfaces. All that concrete is worse than sheetrock and the wood floor needs some absorbtion as well. If the ceiling is concrete...well you've got your work cut out for ya.

I doubt changing anything in your system will yield improved results if the room issues aren't addressed, to some extent.

RG

Whatever you buy,there is absolutely no way you'll get away with excessive treble energy unless you treat your room accordingly,plus,the afformentioned treble,will make your system sound a bit anaemic in the bass (psychoacoustics).

Changing speakers will not fix your room problem. You'll probably find more improvement with a nice thick rug, some side-wall treatments and some difusion on the back wall. Your amp should have plenty of power into 4 ohms in that room, although "more power" never hurts. Ugh.

Placement of your speakers in that room will be super critical, even after you've made it more absorbant. Do you have them at the narrow end? If so, then moving them a fraction of an inch will change the image and bass. The long wall is where they'll work best. If you can get them about 8' to 12' apart toward the middle of that long wall, then you'll have a stable image and you can focus on getting the bass right. I'll tell you roughly how Sumiko gets it right:

Start with the left speaker and turn the right speaker out away from the listening area so you won't hear it too much while you're working with the left speaker. Start with the speaker close to the rear wall, listening to music with a lot of bass content and a solo voice (Rob Wasserman's "Duets" album "Ballad of the Runaway Horse" is what Sumiko uses). Move the speaker out in small increments until the bass bloat goes away but the bass is still solid. Move it out and back in small increments to confirm that placement and accuracy of the bass. Next, listen for the mids in the vocal. Is the bass muddying the vocals? (Very likely) If so, then you'll need to move out a little more, trying to find a compromise where bass is solid, without messing up the most important mids. Use a level to make sure the speakers are perfectly level (repeat leveling throughout the process). When you've reached the "right" compromise on the left speaker start on the right speaker.

Swing the right speaker forward and do the process just as you did on the left. DO NOT assume that the speakers will be the same distance from the back wall and side walls. Most rooms are NOT perfectly semetrical, so measurements simply do not work. Your goal is to get equal energy and SPL from each speaker.

Next, listen from the sweet spot, focusing on coherance. You can sometimes hear it when standing at the speakers, but it's something you're probably not used to listening for. The objective is to get the speakers firing absolutely as-one. This requires micro moves of the right speaker, up and back 1/4" or so until you hear them lock in. Remember, keep checking the levelness.

Back to the listening position, toe-in the speakers so that you see only a sliver of the inside edge. Check level and listen from the sweet spot. The image should have depth and stability.

Finally, with help, have someone slowly tilt the speaker back as you listen to the image. Usually in the first 10-degrees or so you'll hear the image open up and grow. That'll tell you the rake angle for best image.

Ok, easier said than done. i doubt that you'll achieve nirvana on the first try, BUT you'll have a better idea of your speakers' and room's potential after you've done this. Sumiko has a three-day course for their dealers to learn this. It took an hour and a half for my very experienced dealer to do this in my room, so don't expect to do this in twenty-minutes.

The results, when done right, are stunning. You'll greatly reduce intermodulation distortion between the speakers and room, improve bass performance, improve midrange performance. At the same volume settings, your speakers will sound less "noisy". You'll be able to turn up the volume another 25 to 33% without strain. Listening fatigue will be a thing of the past.

Good luck with your search.

Dave

OMG, I didn't notice that you are a Gator. As a Nole I may need to amend my advice!

Just kidding. I grew up in Jax and get down there once or twice per year. I doubt we'll meet, but we all be interested to hear if you have an satisfaction wrestling your speakers in your room.

Plan on taking several passes at your speaker set up. It's not easy, but when it's right you'll be amazed with your system.

Unfortunately I don't know ANY of the speakers you're considering. I'm using Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grands, which I highly recommend, but you're trying to narrow the choices, not broaden, so I'll say no more.

Dave

If you have an interest in the Meadowlark loudspeakers (now defunct), I would also suggest narrowing your choices down to the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II. The loudspeaker to come closest to the unadulterated, unfatigueing sound of the Meadowlark Blue Heron IIs or Kestrels I've heard are the Vandersteens.

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I just looked up the V-A Beethoven Baby Grands, and they've definitely caught my attention. Do you think they'd be too big for my room? (My Linn Ninkas are almost too big for my room, and they seem a lot smaller.) Otherwise, I was impressed with the write-ups. Reviewers seem to be complaining about too much microphonic detail, which I didn't think was possible. How are they at throwing a stage?

I think that the VA Beethoven Baby Grands will work nicely in your room, particularly along the long wall. They don

You mentioned soundstaging, and out of the ones I've heard, and for the room your size, I don't think you can do better than the Devores especially if you care about soundstaging. Another pair you might like that might work are ProAc 152. Or Zu Druids.

Ok, I see the problem clearly thanks to the picture. The correct position for the speakers, for serious listening, is probably in the traffic path to that door on the right.

Consider what I do. I place the speakers much as you have them for casual listening or when not in use. When I listen seriously I move them into their ideal position, using a lazer and tape measure to get them within 1/8" repeatable. They actually end up in the traffic path, but it's not usually a problem because I do most of the serious listening when the wife is out.

Yes indeed, almost any speaker will overpower the room with that placement. (You're getting both corner reenforcement and rear wall, producing some giant humps in the response). I think you'd gain from different speakers, but bass nodes are going to screw up the midrange and bloat the bass at key points unless you can move them around. The good news is that they can work at that end of the room, but you'll have to move them in and out of position for serious listening.

Dave

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Ok, I see the problem clearly thanks to the picture. The correct position for the speakers, for serious listening, is probably in the traffic path to that door on the right.

I would at least give Dave's sugesstion a try. I was very impressed with the Ninka's in audition and would have purchased except my room is twice the size of yours. The Ninka's look the perfect size for your room and I suspect can deliver the performance you desire if you experiment with placement and additional room treatment.

Hopefully that door on the right is a closet?

RG

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dcstep, you are uh-MAY-sing. I just idly pulled the whole rig out, til the left speaker wasn't *quite* flush with the front corner of that left-side notch. I kept the toe-ins the same, and left about 4" of recess for the front of the TV-stand, which means more like 9" of recess for the surface of the TV.

And it sounds *INCREDIBLE*. Way more improvement than new electronics, maybe even more improvement than the last time I got new speakers.

And this, mind you, was just a series of hunches; I didn't do any of this scientifically.

THANK YOU. ...Is there a small software application out there that will help me do this a little more accurately? I seem to want to remember hearing about it once before, but I might be imagining that.

Wow, thanks for the feedback.

Sitting 7' from the speakers is NOT too close when the speakers are that close together, in fact that's about how close I am.

Unfortunately you can't measure your way to correct speaker placement, but it sounds like you're on the right track. I think there's a software program out there that claims that, but other than giving some general rules, all of which you're breaking, it's useless. My dealer, with Sumiko's blessing, is hoping to put tother a self help DVD about how to do this. Unfortunately that's at least a few months away from production. I'll be the first to post here when the aid is available; otherwise we're on our own.

You know, the industry in general is not too keen upon arming audiophiles with a way to improve their systems four-fold without spending any money. My dealer friend, Rod Thomson of Soundings in Colorado has been in the business 30+ years and just got frustrated with trying to help people enjoy their systems. Over and over people would spend big bucks and then have an unhappy result. Almost always it's due to faulty speaker placement. Since he learned to do this Master Set it's been a boon to his business and self-image.

With some work this weekend you'll improve your system even more. It's important to take careful measurements so that you can get the speakers back into their exact sweet spots. Your ears will get spoiled and you'll really dislike when the speakers are not properly placed. Also, keep in mind that each speaker design will require different placement because they all have different acoustic energy signatures. Always start at the wall and move out, bass first, then midrange, then firing together and lastly the rake angle.

Dave

Get out your tape measure and make sure you really have room. Those are big traps. I think that you probably only need two, but they should be helpful, particularly when you move up to the Vienna Acoustics.

After all, they're right down the street from you. The gas cost would be way less than the shipping cost, assuming you have a large enough vehicle.

Dave

You could get four GIK Tri-Traps for less than that. Good product.

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I had an asylum member write back to say, "That's *WAY* too much money."

To me it seemed more like "a little too much money."

What do you think, Dave?

PS: The other two are "supposed" to go behind the listening chair.

I'm worried about how huge those things are. If he's selling at less than half of retail, then it's probably a "fair" deal, but only you can decide if you'll pay that much. Look at prices for smaller traps on www.audioadvisor.com and then consider if you still want to make the purchase.

Dave

Now that you've gotten to that point, there's more to be gained. If you move back toward the rear wall you can gain the bass without losing the midrange; HOWEVER, it's hard. You'll hit nodes that put the bass through the roof and ruin the mids, but if you really work at it I think that you can gain a TON of controlled, coherant bass.

Make note of your current settings so that you can always revert, but start again back at the wall. Remember, start with the left speaker, etc., etc., etc. I predict a sweet spot about two feet from the rear wall and about the distance you now have from the side walls, but don't let that influence you too much.

You've come a long ways Grasshopper...

Dave

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You must have gotten a big kick out of the asymmetrical placement? Somehow it's working, but I dare say the science behind all of this would say that it couldn't possibly.

It probably works because the room itself is asymmetrical - plus there are hirsute sound-absorbing felines which inarguably have an impact.

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You must have gotten a big kick out of the asymmetrical placement? Somehow it's working, but I dare say the science behind all of this would say that it couldn't possibly.

It probably works because the room itself is asymmetrical - plus there are hirsute sound-absorbing felines which inarguably have an impact.

Yes, it's clearly an asymetrical room. It's a very unusual room that'll have the speakers in a symetrical placement in optimal performance.

Dave

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Yes, it's clearly an asymetrical room. It's a very unusual room that'll have the speakers in a symetrical placement in optimal performance.

That's been my experience as well.

I have never had a perfectly symmetrical room to play with. In such a room symmetry has got to be the way to go, but this would be quite a luxury.