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From another thread:
"Playing devils' advocate here, what if the Lexicon actually sounds better? Is it worth the extra $ even though you can't see any difference?"
"A good question... let's assume that there are some hidden changes that make it sound better (or maybe the more expensive outer shell somehow does that)... then whether it's worth the extra money is up the individual consumer (just like all upgrades in Hi-Fi)..."
______
This is Hi Fi, there will inevitably be a subset of people who think the magic Lexicon Fairy sprinkled the unit with magic dust and it will sound better and validly command a higher price.
That's funny, but you need to read what is being said in that post again... as it was about a 'theoretical situation' and not what actually occurred.. That post was in no way a defense of Lexicon, as it spoke to hidden changes that increased performance... According to the reviews so far, there are no changes and no increase in performance... so try again... and use quotes honestly this time, rather than attempting to misrepresent what people have said...
And Welsh, if you could please very specifically and very completely, outline your entire case against high end audio.
Then we might finally see where the mis-communication lies. For we have tried to clarify the case for it, to you, for a quite long time now, but not having the benefit of your full and correctly delivered argument, we can't understand where the real exact bone of contention lies.
You have to be able to deliver a concise and fleshed out argument for there to be an actual discussion. Right now, it will degenerate into name calling and ending with no clarity at all.
I'm fully convinced from my many years of experience in high end audio that you really don't have a concise, valid, or workable argument of any merit, and I think that the onus is on you to submit yourself to an act of delivering your point(s) in a manner that makes some sort of sense.
Was I misrepresenting them? They seemed to be brining up the notion that Lexicon maybe did do something to the unit to improve its sound. "Maybe the more expensive outer shell somehow does that..."
I'm just saying that someone could walk by and spit on an Oppo and there will be some people who "ooh" and "aah" at the improvement.
For all we know, Lexicon performed a new, sub-quantum tweak that is a total bargain for the price.
If you don't think there are those who would buy that theory, then welcome to your first day in the hobby!
Seriously, how many equipment comparisons have you ever seen that said any two models of anything that claim "there are no changes and no increase in performance?"
There are always differences people hear, I am partially amazed at this "Miracle of Saint Oppo" revealing a given reviewer hears no difference, and that this lack of difference is broadly agreed upon! I also smell some posing so people can claim there finally were two products that sounded the same - for future validation.
Man, you'd think that thick faceplate would damp a little vibration and be good for something? Right!?!?
You make good arguments, but my position is as it has always has been: paying customers get served first.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Imagine the fun if Kal validates the Lexicon's value or superiority!
Pan
De
Monium!
Leaving aside the fraud we have been discussing and assuming that the speakers perform better than lesser priced speakers I completely agree.
If there are equal performing for less I would like him to know this. But if he then still springs for the $100k pair - no problem.
Interestingly some did (not here). I think it was the thread on Home Theater Review where HTR itself defended Lexicon. The thread is now gone. I saw some other threads where some posters were defending the practice.
I would like to see a response from Lexicon. Specifically, others have noted that the menu structuring is different. Lexicon claimed in its pre-release statements that its programming/firmware was special. Perhaps there are significant firmware differences (although none that I can think of would be worth $3,000.00.)
To answer your first question: Yes you are misrepresenting what is being said... In case you didn't realize, the person you are quoting in that other thread is me... So I can state for a fact that I was in NO way trying to justify what Lexicon did... I was merely answering a hypothetical question about IF there was somehow a REAL improvement in performance... Not a case where someone choses to imagine that the expensive faceplate somehow makes the Lexicon better, despite reviews showing otherwise... (the part in the quote about the expensive outer shell was sarcasm - as explained in a subsequent post in that same thread - Better casing can reduce vibrations, but it most certainly cannot give performance improvements worthy of a 700% price increase)..
As for your other point: Yes, the possibility exists that some people will believe that there really are hidden changes and magic pixie dust that justifies the price of the Lexicon, but I've yet to see evidence that many (if any) such persons exist... All the threads and posts I've seen so far have been very much against what Lexicon did...
Shocking!
Now, we should just chill and mark time until to 'contrarians' have a chance to reflect and realize that any gear change needs to be audbile, and you'll see some variation of opinion. If this switch is allowed to remain inaudible, imagine what else might be inaudible. This must not stand.
Really? That was you? They should find a way to mark these posts, or something.
I think we're in agreement then...
Though where it really gets tricky is that fraud (like the Lexicon Situation or Red Rose for that matter) is easy enough to expose... But what if the manufacturer uses parts that can genuinely justify the price? Since audio performance is relative to the individual, how do you prove that the expensive gear sounds exactly the same as the cheaper gear? That's why I regard the final decision about value as being really up to the individual.... It's up the person with the $100K to determine whether that speaker indeed sounds better than a $10K one... Hi-Fi publications can expose cases of fraud, they can also identify products they regard as performing exceptionally well or exceptionally poorly... but they can't tell you what is good value for your money...
Thank you for clarifying... since you are not attempting to engage in a serious discussion and are just clowning, I'll stop wasting time responding to you... Continue to believe that everyone is drinking the Hi-Fi Kool-Aid... And good luck with your quest to expose how High End is all fraud...
Geez, now I get you - parrot what you say or be labelled a Kool Aid drinker.
OK, to repost for someone of your cranial density:
1) There will be those who will find a way to validate the Lexicon product.
2) This is nothing new to Hi Fi, hence the references I made to Red Rose Audio (Ferrari radios, and perhaps even Goldmund.) You can use your own energy to learn about Red Rose and other 'rebadgers,' this is a longstanding phenomenon.
3) Since you seem to be unaware of high end audio reviews - NONE ever equate two pieces of gear. None, ever. The fact that we have this groundswell against Lexicon with so many people talking about "identicality" between to two units is likely disingenuous on the part of many of them. Hell, these are the people who think placing a wooden block on the top of a unit makes a night and day difference, and now we have them howling about the Lexicon and Oppo sounding/performing identically. The irony doesn't seep through for you? An M&M sized doohickey on a cabinet makes a difference, but not a machined aluminum faceplate and different case. If you are not an audio novitate, then that didn't sort of surpise you?
Keep trying.
4) Once the people who 'hear everything' realize that they shouldn't be allowing the idea of the Oppo and Lexicon sounding the same to be accepted, we will see some of that fringe come to the aid of the Lexicon.
5) I don't find high end audio to be a fraud at all. Now you are just making stuff up to be disagreeable.
6) Lexicon has some 'splaining to do (but they won't,) which should be fun to watch...and, yes, clown about. There is much that is funny in this story.
Just because one company gets caught sans pants doesn't mean the entire hobby does as they do.
Absolutely correct, Ajani. But then you run into the trolls and Stereophile haters who want to blame every high end excess on the magazine's staff.
And the redundant and boring accusations of collusion with the manufacturers for payola and freebies.
And the blanket condemnation and ridicule of all the ass-kissing Kool-Aid drinkers who enjoy the magazine and the hobby rather than flagellate themselves over and over for spending more than wholesale on a component.
Why are these people here? To hear themselves rant, I guess (as I rant, myself
).
BTW, I just rec'd my February edition. Talk about VALUE and bang for the audiophile buck! Great articles, reviews, R2D4's. Where you gonna get anything close for a measly dollar? But I'm just following the party line. I like the party line. People oughta party more!
p.s. I think Buddah's just fucking with you. He's really a good soul with a talent for high end sarcasm.
Well, I certainly noticed a touch of sarcasm...
Man, you guys!
OK, turban on head, envelope to forehead...
I predict there will be a small cadre of support for the superiority of the Lexicon as this moves along.
The Lexicon will be, for some, Malibu Stacy with a "New Hat!"
You've got to believe me!
(I do find the whole episode compleletly laughable. It's like somebody 'discovering' that Mark McGwire used steroids. Rebadging is a dirty secret, I guess. {Usually cloaked in new capacitors, at least.} Didn't any of you also have a partial, "Well, D'uh" feeling when you heard this sordid Lexicon tale? I recall the garden hose expose's, the high end power conditioners with wallwarts glued inside, etc...)
Good point. So how about emailing copies of Kal's review to interested subscribers? And yes I know that as soon as that happens the review will be posted in someone's blog and from there to the entire internet but at least Stereophile can then:
1) have a real voice in this controversy
2) have keep it's subscriber base, i.e. paying customers, somewhat happy, since after all Stereophile didn't publish the article on their web site before the March issue was released.
Just some more food for thought.
I own a Lexicon RT20, their previous model universal. It retailed for $5K but I got it new for $2k.
Many knockers of Lexicon have insisted that they have done this type of thing before with the said RT20 (given its based on a Marantz DV9500). Before buying the RT20 I did lots of internal board comparisons and the RT-20 for example has professional BNC component video connectors and XLR digital output (with associated boards), which are features I use.... plus upgraded caps among other things that made it completely different from the stock Marantz.
At the $5K-6K level, I prefereed the RT20 to offerings from Esoteric/Ayre etc. So there was something going on here with the mods Lexicon did.
At this point I am prepared to give Lexicon the benefit of the doubt based on what I saw them do with the RT20 (and in fact the previous RT10 they have which they also hot rodded).
In relation to the "box inside a box", which from my perspective wouldnt save them much in manufacturing costs , maybe they found that the "double wrapping" did have some sonic benefit. And based on what they did with the RT10 and RT20... I suspect that they have done stuff to the Oppo that maybe isnt apparent.
Jazzfan, at this point we know what it is going to say.
Can you imagine a conclusion: "The new Lexicon, at 3,500 dollars, is well worth its price. It is demonstrably superior to the Oppo products I have experienced. In fact, the unit is so good, I am buying it."
I think we'd have more foreshadowing if there were significant disagreement with the current hubub.
I may be reading it wrong, however.
Time for us to put together predictions about Kal's conclusion!
I'll even go first:
"If there is a difference between the Lexicon unit and the Oppo unit upon which it's based, I could not discern it. The Lexicon does offer improved functionality via its remote, but I found it to be a non-issue in my time with the player. As with any audio/video component, the final choice is yours, and if the styling or features of the Lexicon are more in tune with your sensibilities, then I recommend you decide about the Lexicon's value for yourself."
We can even play word-bingo and see who gets the most word matches!
And before someone jumps down my throat and says "they measured the same"...lets not go down that rat hole.
Two power amps can measure the same but sound different (based on different internal topologies that interact differently with the speakers).
So potentially two source components could measure the same but still sound different when connected into a complete playback loop.
Right!
This controversy and the accompanying 'identicality' of the two units could make for some strange bedfellows!
Excellent submission.
I am not willing to try to top it.
BTW, I enjoy your high end sarcasm. It is more subtle, yet contains greater astringency than mid-grade sarcasm.
And so the Michell TecnoArm sounds just like the RB250 tonearm its based on. It certainly looks the same?
What about the ICE digital power modules many manufactures use... do all amps based on this sound the same?
All I am saying is that I dont think Lexicon wouldnt be so stupid as to try and just do a box warp..It makes no sense in relation to the market place and it doesnt gel/match what they have done with previous universal players such as the RT20.
I remember participating in a thread on another forum sometime last year, where we discussed an Amplifier review by Michael Fremer... One of the Forum members was quick to point out that he has no regard for Fremer, because Fremer thinks a $15K turntable is affordable... That same member ranted quite regularly about all the overpriced excess in High-End and how it is killing our hobby...
The guy owns a $20K setup (about $10K on Speakers)... So he had no issue with a $5K turntable, but a $15K one is a ripoff... So the irony being, that to most persons his setup is a ripoff and a joke... $5K for "obsolete" technology, in the eyes of the masses, is batshit crazy...
I used to think that when more affluent audiophiles dismissed the 'Conspiracy/Rip-off Contingent' of just being jealous that they can't afford the best, that it was just arrogance and snobbishness... but now I really think they maybe right (at least partially)...
Why should a $3K pair of speakers be regarded as acceptable, but a $30K pair be a total ripoff? What makes the $3K pair not a ripoff, when I could get Speakers for $300?
From what I've seen it always seems to come down to the point that "whatever I'm willing to pay/can afford is good value and anything else is just a ripoff"...
Not at all.
This is because the ICE module is only one of many, many parts that go into an amp. Many easy DIY amps based on the module sound absolutely dreadful.
If Lexicon used only the Oppo transport no one would challenge this if the rest of the design was Lexicon's.
You would not think so, but it appears that this is exactly what they did.
As I mentioned before, maybe there is some outstanding improvements in firmware offered by Lexicon - but even this seems unlikely given that there are reports that bugs long since squashed by Oppo are still present in the Lexicon.
As Buddha pointed out, it is odd that the cognoscenti are all stating that the units sound/look identical.
One would think that the heavy faceplate alone would make a discernible difference to the gifted listener/viewer - by which the Internet is so heavily populated.
Lexicon's history is what makes this situation shocking... People expect better from them...
Even if they had no idea how to improve the video and digital audio performance of the unit, at the minimum they should have been able to substantially improve the analog output stages.... If nothing else, it should have been for video purposes the same Oppo, but for Audio a high end disc player...
I used to modify every single DVD or CD-type disc player that came into my possession.
Nowadays, with HDMI being the in-thing, less of that is necessary than ever before. I am expecting that the lexicon player is likely to be used via HDMI for the vast part of it's usage/lifespan.
Agreed... I was just saying that at a minimum, if they did nothing else, they could have made it a good disc player...
I think your comments are entirely appropriate to the situation. We can take the words, which you have offered here, and insert them into a new package emblazoned with Stereophile labels for distribution to our paid subscribers.
Kal
For the record, today I was given this in a phone call: Our cables (a full set) went into the lab of a very well respected and universally known manufacturer of, er, chips and associated designs, in the hands of a dedicated audiophile who is at or near their top tier of engineers. He makes his own cables for his own systems and those cables are made so they are as free of ANY measurable self-signal or self-noise as he can make them. Ie, they have no measurable characteristics of any kind, as far as he can get these designs to go. Now, our cables give him the fits as they sound notably better to his ears and he does use our cables..but he cannot explain how they work, which is where his 'troubles' lie. He is working very hard right now to try and understand this. I ain't talking!
Another guy who was jumping up and down like an excited kid when he heard about the design is the head calibrations expert for another big manufacturer, he really wanted to know all he could. Another big audiophile. I ain't talking!
At the recent show, after hearing our cables a distributor for a well known company called up the company he was involved with and cried the blues and said, when he heard that cable, 'I did not know whether to laugh or cry!'
So the cable is cutting edge, on all levels. On the listening and specifically on the hard physics end. Good luck putting a value on that. It is not even an audio cable, per se, it merely resembles one.
Everything in Audio can be measured... Hi-Fi is Science and not Witchcraft... BUT, the real question is whether we've learned how to measure 'everything' yet...
I think you nailed it. In addition, I posted the following comment to our CES blog a few days ago, and I believe it relevant to his part of this discussion: "I just don't get the atmosphere of entitlement that those complaining [about high prices] project. It has always been the case that very best-performing audio components are expensive. If you can't afford those components, so what? There are many, many components available for less that get close to the ultimate in sound quality. Or is it that your own sense of self-worth demands that you have the best but as you can't afford the best, you spend your days in a cloud of anger and resentment?"
The late Peter W. Mitchell described this syndrome to me decades ago as being typical of the "Boston Audiophile" mind-set - they want perfection but they don't want to pay more than $49 for it.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I'll give you 40.
Anyway, this thread is starting to give me deja vu!
If you think this stuff is costly, try pricing out Tiger Woods' cost per orgasm.
So, seriously, at what point is someone allowed to legimitately question value vs. being called a cheap whiner?
If 135,000 amplifiers were priced at ten times the cost, would anybody ever be 'allowed' to say, "1,350,000 dollars for an amplifier? Ridiculous!"
I know, the market bears what the market can bear, but there is a point where your credulity switches from sycophant to skeptical (I only use that word to tease Geoff...
...)
Can you picture Dr. Evil sticking out his pinkie and naming an amplifier price that would finally make you laugh rather than rush to justify?
"My new amplifier costs one billion dollars....and I'm limiting production to only fifty units."
I agree but I think you forgot to end that with a smiley
Mike wrote this at the end of the comments of the Deja Vu link:
michaelavorgna
I don't know what's more infuriating - stuff that costs more than I can spend or stuff that costs less than I've spent.
and I wrote:
Yes mike! Walking out of the audio shop should feel like a near completed act of deep perversion. The kind where you sandwich multiple emotions in a space meant for one. Fear that the wife will find out. Loss, for the money spent. Anguish over possibly not having the right piece of gear. Joy that you have a new toy. Shame that you could not afford the bigger one than the one you bought. Anticipation of opening the box and having fun with the new piece. Angst over the coming tube rolling choices. Depression that you will not be able to do this again, soon. Your heart should be beating like a jackhammer as you walk out with your new toy.
And charge 4 times the usual price, please. Those are Buddha's upgraded audiophile comments.
If I could not make same/more money than if I was doing something else, then the price would be that high, yes. If the item had about 10 years of hard work and innovation in it that exists no where else then yes, I would insist, like anyone else, on being paid for that effort,and the price might be higher. and it might be justified, if people buy it. AS for getting to an amplifier with a cost of $135k, it would be easier than you think. And the retail would be ..very high, I can tell you that much.
For example, If I wanted to go to custom exotic 99.9999 silver slit-foil nano-carbon/nano-silver, with silver binding post electrolytic capacitors,and they had to be DESIGNED first..and each mono amp took 12 of them..and they cost $3200 each?(not far from what would be the right price) Well..you can see that one would be well on their way to the $135k cost price. $40k used up, already. Right now you can go out and buy some of the best caps available, as some think..and that is the silver-oil-teflon V-Caps, and they come in at an easy $1k each. And that is NOT an exaggerated price. You can't do what they are doing at the quantities they are doing and be able to sell it for less. It really is that simple. then this $1000 cap, and there might easily be 4-8 of them in the given amplifier..well, you can see how it gets expensive, and fast. And, to add, these $ numbers are now costs, and must have multipliers added to them, no matter what. If you are in business and you spend a dollar anywhere, you must have a minimum return on it, or you will go out of business. You cannot 'gift' ANYTHING into the system of manufacturing, You MUST charge for it, otherwise you will simply go out of business.
The market will find it's own price on things, that's the way it works out from the bubble gum market to the lear-jet market. Same as usual.
Bitching about it only serves to irritate those within hearing distance and to show ones self as badly edjumacated.
I just spent 45 minutes writing out my logic, then I accidentally hit a wrong key and it was gone !!!
I dont have the energy to rewrite it so im just going to bow out and let Ken win this one.
He is right, High end audio is great value, we should carry on paying as much as the high companies want us to and stop even thinking about real things like value.
Alan
I never ever said that Alan. All I ever said was that not all things out there are a rip-off. Most are not. In fact, the vast majority are not.And if you do think it is rip-off, you can simply not buy it.
The problem comes when you try to slam all people who make and design in the art of high end audio...as rip off artists. Which you seem to do.
If we can't clearly see each others point, then no-one wins. We both win if we clearly understand each other and we both loose if we can't clearly get our points across so the other understands.
I thank you for putting in the time.
There are so many great products available in this hobby, that someone can build a good sounding system on just about any budget... So not being able to afford a $100K product is irrelevant....
There is a virtually endless amount of affordable gear from mainstream manufacturers. And if persons don't trust the major brands, there are so many direct sale boutique brands to choose from... And those guys will often give you a full breakdown of the parts they use and the difference between one product in their line and the next... So you can even recalculate the cost of the product yourself (if you need to be absolutely certain that you are getting value for every penny)... I just don't see what there is to complain about...
The part that always amuses me is that it is never someone who has $30K to spend on an amp who complains that such a product is overpriced, it's always someone who was never going to be a potential customer anyway, who somehow feels that he is being ripped off.... You can only be ripped off if it's your money being spent... Otherwise it doesn't affect you...
Ken
OK, another attempt !!
My issues relate primarily around the polution of the industry that high end prices are causing, let me try and explain my reasoning.
The first thing that i need to make clear is that im not against things purely based on absolute dollar's its about value and market relativity. I like a lot of the higher end things in life, i wear a rolex, owned BMW's, Mercedes etc. love fine wine. I do not hate anything purely because its a luxury item and im not a jealous type who hates because i cant have something.
Lets take your car example, a Yugo costs say $8k a Maserati costs say $80k or 10 x. Now you state that the mineral value of the materials is very little different and you are right, my thinking is that the intrinisic values of these cars are in the correct ratio though. The engine in the Yugo is a cast iron tractor engine, the Maserati is a hand built aluminum 32 valve turbo charged masterpeice, worth that 10 x factor, the interior of the Yugo is vinyl, the Maserati is hand stitched italian glove leather again no issue with 10 x value. The brakes/wheels, polished magnesium with ceramic brakes on carbon fibre discs or wheelbarrow wheels with a cable operated drum ? again the 10x value is clearly demonstrated.
This from a car prospective is what i mean by intrinsic value, it is clearly obvious where your money is going, now one of the biggest things that annoys me is that hifi people say " well we have to spend the money to listen to teh product so it sounds good " well if a maserati had all those nice features but drove like a school bus do you think anyone would buy it ? the engineering is not something you can claim as an extra, you have to do it just to create the product, stating that you need to charge for your time to make your cables sound good is ridculous, its like Coke saying you have to pay $50 on every can of their new flavors for research.
Now lets take watches, my Rolex submariner has been around 50 years and the price ratio between it and higher levels has remained remarkably consistant. Yes their are a few watches that are playing the same game as hifi and just being as expensive as possible but they are not doing that well.
Now lets get to hifi. teh first system that really excited me consisted of a Pink Triangle with Albarry Music mono blocks and Allison one speakers, that was like 1983 ish. At the time that was extremely high end and there were alternatives but nothing that much more expensive. The engineer who i was training with who owned that system was just a normal guy with a wife and kids, not well paid at all. The total cost was like 3-6 months of his income, a lot of money but not impossible.
Now let me state firstly some companies I really admire for their approach, Rega springs to mind, as you go up their chain from the fantastic Planar 3 to the P5, P7 your cost goes up around 30-40 % each time, you get to their ultimate P9 which comes with all sorts of outboard PSU,s etc and its $5k which on inspection I believe passes for good intrinsic value. Creek Audio, again as you go up in quality on their integrated amps to the Destiny you reach a class A product for $2500, great value. Lets take some American companies, Van Alstine, Salk, Odyssey, all fantastic products at very reasonable prices, yes you can spend $10k with Klaus but you will have a great system that i believe has intrinsic value
Now, lets look at what upsets me and what is wrong with the industry. Lets take 3 examples of things that are just plain gouging in my mind.
Number 1 on my list is Lars, if you take my car analogy, they are taking a basic simple transformer ( lundahl ) that costs around $70 and selling it as the primary output stage of a $100,000 amp. This is the equivalent of putting plastic wheelbarrow wheels on a Bugatti Veyron, there is just no way you can make any intrinsic argument for this product.
Number 2 Nordost and all other $10k speaker cables, its back to the point made earlier, yes it makes a system sound better but their is just no intrinsic value. The materials and assembely techniques just do not add upto $10k.
Number 3 Musical Fidelity Titan amp, $30,000 !!! MF are the ultimate example of hifi scam artists, they will exploit whatever the current fad in the market is, one year its low power class A, then its valve amps, then the power race came up and they introduced the superchargers, these bombed miserably so what did they do they put a bit more power in a fancy box and tripled the price. Now one thing that DUP always used to state was the watts are cheap and he is abolutely right. The electronics in the titan just do not possess the intrinsic value for $30,000
Lets take a classic example of a company doing things that wind me up. Klipsch, the Khorn had been around forever at a very consistant price, their high end alternative used to be the RF 83, a good speaker and at a price of $2500 a pair pretty good value. Now Klipsch killed that, they saw that the Khorn was no longer top of the hifi speaker food chain so they needed something new, this had to be expensive enough to seem good, they took the same driver arrangements as the RF 83, tarted everything up, stuck in a fancy veneer and hey presto the PF 39 for $20,000, now just is just gouging, their is no way the PF 39 has intrinsic value of 2.5 times a Khorn or 8 times the Rf 83.
Now the common argument that is thrown out is that why should i care if people want to spend $100,000 on an amp, im just jealous. Well my issue is that these rip off items are corrupting the marketplace, my home system would cost around $15,000 new, expensive but possible. When i was young a dream car cost around a years salary, it still does, a dream watch used to be 6 months salary, it is probably less nowadays, my dream hifi used to be 3-6 months salary, now its more like 3-6 years, thats is why im angry. These stupid prices are corrupting the market and taking innovation and the latest products into a financial area that is prohibitive for a normal person, it is further compounded by the fact that as ive hopefully demonstrated above no engineering/component reasons that justify these lofty prices it is simply that people are charging whatever the market will sustain and if MF can charge $30,000 for something that 2 years ago would have been $6,000 why wouldnt they ??
Ken, that is why i get pissed, i hope this at least shows i have a logic to my atitude
Alan
While I see the point you are trying to make... I question this major issue in your reasoning:
"my dream hifi used to be 3-6 months salary, now its more like 3-6 years, thats is why im angry" - is it a case that you can no longer get as high quality a product for 3-6 months salary as you used to? Or is it merely a case, that manufacturers have started creating even better gear than what existed previously, at never before explored price points?
All the reviews I've seen seem to show that the gear available at 3-6 months salary today is better than what was available for similar money a decade or 2 or 3 ago... So to use a car comparison... Imagine that 30 years ago the most expensive cars being made were Camrys and Accords... Today those cars still sell for relatively similar money, but manufacturers have started also producing BMWs, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc.... That's how Hi-Fi has evolved... The most expensive and highest quality component 30 years ago would be the equivalent of an Accord... Now it's a Bentley... The current generation of Accord is a much better vehicle than what it was 30 years ago, but it's no longer the BEST attainable in absolute dollar terms (that's now the Bentley)... But the Accord today is even better value for money than it was when it was king of the hill 30 years ago...
Let me explain it this way
I agree that the 3-6 months worth of product is better today than the equivalent 30 years ago. What im saying though is not about the absolute performance of a product relative to its price, its about its relative performance to the price AND the market at any one point in time.
So a family saloon as always cost say 4 months salary, a high end sports car has always cost say 12 months salary. Of course a family car from today would outperform a 30 year old sports car.
In hifi a good setup was say 3 months salary and a high end ultimate setup was 6 months. Now the good setup is still in that 3 month range but the high end is in the 3 year range.
Im not denying that if you compare the actual products that they have improved, im just saying that there is no reason why the hifi market should be different to anything else in terms its relative position.
Look at a better example, the latest and greatest computer has alawys cost around $2,000, yet Moores law clearly states that performance doubles every 18 months, The price of the high end stays consistant in just about every other market, why should hifi suddenely get away with moving that price point to a 3 to 5 times what it was relative to the market ( forget absolute dollars )
We are being conned by the industry, we need to step up and eliminate all this gouging, lets get back to good solid companies charging a fair amount for good product.
Interesting bits from a review of the Lexicon:
"I am sure people will attack this player as a "rebadged" Oppo, so I went out and bought an Oppo BD-83 SE in order to fairly compare the two. First off, there is no comparison between the build quality of the two players. The Oppo is lighter and the buttons have a far less solid feel to them. The Lexicon is a taller, much heftier unit. Black levels were close, but the Lexicon had a more natural contrast and color palette than the Oppo. More importantly, the Lexicon was nearly totally silent when loading discs and changing tracks. Those familiar with the Oppo know it is a rather noisy player when loading discs, switching tracks and scanning, even sometimes for no apparent reason. The drive is in the Oppo is noisy enough to catch my attention during quiet passages in movies, while the Lexicon is inaudible during use at all times.
"The Lexicon BD-30 has the best build quality of any Blu-ray player I have seen to date. The thick, machined faceplate with deeply indented lettering and recessed area for the drawer and display are exceptional-looking, while the remainder of the case is rock solid. This isn't some Japanese stamped steel player..."
From Home Theater Review
I guess the Lexicon is better, after all.
I hope this isn't too upsetting for someone. "Where is anyone defending Lexicon in our hobby? As far as I see, all the threads and posts on this scandal have condemed Lexicon..."
We're in agreement that the gear available for 3 months is better than what was previously available for 3 months.
The gear available for 6 months is also better than what was previously available at 6 months...
The gear at 3 years never existed before...
So basically what you want to see is the ratio remain as it was... so a good setup should be available at 3 and the best available at 6... which in practical terms means telling manufacturers that they are not allowed to sell products that cost more than 6 months of your salary... and telling consumers that they are not allowed to buy products that cost more than 6 months of your salary...
So since the quality of products available at 3 and 6 months are both better, the question persons rightfully ask is: why does the existence of products costing 3 years salary offend you?
Let's assume that $2K is the price for a top of the line computer... Why don't manufacturers sell $15K computers? Assuming that $0.5M is the price for a top of the line Sportscar, then why don't manufacturers produce $10M sportscars? I doubt it's because persons are going to complain that the "ratio" has changed... the issue for the manufacturer will come down to the question of: where is the demand for a $15K Computer and a $10M sportscar? Hi-Fi manufacturers are pushing state of the art, because they believe the market is there for such ultra-expensive products... eventually a limit will be found... it just won't be 6 months of an average salary...
First off: Congratulations on getting me to respond to you - you must be proud... give yourself a pat on the back.
Second: If you spent more time making real points and less time on comedy, your posts might actually be useful.
Third: Since the HTR review of Lexicon came out long before the scandal erupted (which I'm sure you know), then it is not a defense of Lexicon.. It is an example of an incompetent review... And after the scandal broke on audioholics, the reviewer on HTR got ripped a new one in the HTR comments section (which was subsequently removed by HTR - but can still be found on other sites)....
So yes your post was funny, but no it was still not a defense of Lexicon... Try again... (and if you find something suitably amusing again, I might even respond again)...
You obviously can't read, I guess.
You can't find a defense of the Oppo in there?
Since he found a difference, he's incompetent. Glad you can tell if there's any difference without any experience with the piece.
Ajani, I don't gives a rats ass if you reply, I was pointing out your lack of insight into what people will say about whether there are differences between the units or not. This reviewer directly compared the two (did you miss that part?) and favored the Lexicon.
Did you catch the parts of the review that might directly relate to the impact of the repackaging, in his eyes?
Quieter operation, more substantial feel?
Have you ever even seen an Oppo unit?
The reviewer had valid complaints about specific characteristics of the Oppo line that have been universally noted already.
I see your endpoint: Anyone who defends the Oppo is incompetent. Your work is done.
The timing of the review is irrelevant, the reviewer specifically acknowledged the similarities and directly compared the two units.
Did you think Audioholics was the first to note the similarity?
Think again.
That review was done before the scandal broke and before you got your marching orders. It doesn't matter if the reviewer was criticized. If that was your weak point, then EVERY reviewer is incomtetent by virtue of having been 'ripped a new one' at some point.
I told you there will be people who claim to hear differences.
"...but no it was still not a defense of Lexicon..."
I'll type real slow so you can keep up: His was a direct defense of the Lexicon, Einstein.
Buddha,
I think Ajani's statement that no one on these forums were defending Lexicon was accurate at the time of his posting- and meant as a rejoinder to the Stereophile haters who were complaining and blaming the magazine and its fans for Lexicon's deception.
So why the Einstein remark? IMO he was right. He was commenting within the context of the forum, not the whole audio community.
Let's get back to the question I asked (which you deliberately quoted at the end of your HTR post - clearly an attempt to diss me and get a response - so as I said before - Congratulations!)...
"Where is anyone defending Lexicon in our hobby? As far as I see, all the threads and posts on this scandal have condemed Lexicon..."
The question clearly refers to the scandal (Audioholics opening up the Lex and seeing no differences to the Oppo)... Not what people were saying before the scandal occurred (many people commented on the similar look of the Lex and the Oppo, but assumed their would be differences)...
The HTR review was before the scandal... So it is not a case that HTR is now attempting to defend Lexicon after the scandal... I severely doubt that the HTR reviewer would have released that review if the scandal had already broken... he would have done some proper investigation rather than just saying: black levels are different and transport is less noisy...
So my point remains that people have not been defending Lexicon in this scandal... There has not been a whole bunch of claims that the Lexicon must somehow be better than the Oppo...
It should also be noted that the reviewer later admitted that he had done some recalibration of his display between viewing the Lex and the Oppo. Or, at least, he says so.
Kal
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