CECE
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I apologize for being.........
Jan Vigne
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OK, just call me Rev. Al.

ohfourohnine
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Look, DUP, there's no reason for you to apologize for, "...being ME." as you put it. Yes, I was curious enough to see what kind of apology you'd offer to read your post without signing in - but not curious enough to undo the ignore code for your posts. I did that again a couple of days ago when the 24 hour summary of activity showed your ID on a majority of the posts listed. None of the eight or nine posts you entered that day contained anything but links to other sites - no comment or question of your own. That's pretty pathetic, don't you think? Still, it wasn't, in my opinion, cause to cancel my subscription to the mag or to abandon the forum. If someone chooses to do that sort of thing, it is on his own hook.

Considering the number of posts you have made to this forum and the content I recall when I used to read them, it seems clear that there is something strange about you - nothing, however, that I can comprehend or offer any suggestions about.

Good Luck to you, you strange, strange man.

bifcake
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Quote:
ME. Like I'm not a white man who has wires and outlets!!! Only thing is I can't hear it. sorry for that, I'm, a good person though, 100% of my stuff has wires attached,many of the wires are also black, a few brown ones too, so I know what it's like to have wires. hopefully I will survive, with this afliction. Steve has warned me of my posts, which are not in agreement with the masses who have wires they can hear. I musta' said a badd thing. http://www.optonline.net/Entertainment/A...icle%3D21758456

There is no need to apologize. You bring unconventional thinking into this otherwise middle aged white man dominated forum. Within your misspelled, rambling posts, there is wisdom and ability to march to your own tune. Don't let THE MAN beat you down. Do not conform. If poor spelling and rambling gets under THE MAN's skin, then so be it.

The words of even the greatest sages are subject to interpretation and are not immediately obvious to the masses, much less, THE MAN. One has to ponder and meditate upon your ramblings to find gold in 'em hills.

Let us meditate... Aaaouuummmm.....

ohfourohnine
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Leave it to DUP - by planting one of his beloved links - to bring the Imus fuss into this forum and to leave me no choice but to step into the murky world of politics.

As a life long resident of Chicago and a contemporary of Jesse Jackson let me point out that Imus is really unimportant as is the Rutgers basketball team. They are merely Jesse's targets of the day. He has made a good living all his life fomenting racial discord - shaking down both THE MAN (as you put it, Alex) and those he claims to champion. Without the kind of stupid stuff guys like Imus provide, Jesse would have to return to mugging old ladies on the street and he's getting too old for that now.

Lamont Sanford
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"[There]'s some nappy-headed hos [here], I'm going to tell you that,..."

gkc
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Alex, I am certainly not "the man." Nor am I entrusted with the judge's gavel. But, I will aver that "...poor spelling and rambling..." ought to be capital crimes if committed in public. Save them for private indulgence and proofread them for sharing. If these are your criteria for being one of the "...greatest sages...not immediately obvious to the masses," then the universe postively teems with as yet uncrowned wits who brandish the torch of ignorance.

Just brilliant. There is "gold" in the "them thar hills" of DUP's deathless prose. And he's the apple of my eye, whose ability to turn a phrase knows no bounds.

Excuse me. I must now go meditate on the depth of it all. There must be a great profundity dozing beneath this placid surface, a subtext worthy of great mental thrashing. Undiscovered exegetes, your opportunity for fame awaits you! Mine the subtext of the Great DUP and reap the accolades of the as yet unilluminated mob! Fame and universal adoration await you! All you have to do is find the gold in them thar hills and smelt it into the eternal truth we all lack!

Alex, in the words of Diogenes, "You gotta be shittin' me."

bifcake
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Alex, I am certainly not "the man." Nor am I entrusted with the judge's gavel. But, I will aver that "...poor spelling and rambling..." ought to be capital crimes if committed in public. Save them for private indulgence and proofread them for sharing. If these are your criteria for being one of the "...greatest sages...not immediately obvious to the masses," then the universe postively teems with as yet uncrowned wits who brandish the torch of ignorance.

Just brilliant. There is "gold" in the "them thar hills" of DUP's deathless prose. And he's the apple of my eye, whose ability to turn a phrase knows no bounds.

Excuse me. I must now go meditate on the depth of it all. There must be a great profundity dozing beneath this placid surface, a subtext worthy of great mental thrashing. Undiscovered exegetes, your opportunity for fame awaits you! Mine the subtext of the Great DUP and reap the accolades of the as yet unilluminated mob! Fame and universal adoration await you! All you have to do is find the gold in them thar hills and smelt it into the eternal truth we all lack!

Alex, in the words of Diogenes, "You gotta be shittin' me."

Clifton, you misspelled "positively" in your post. Are you to fall on your sword for this transgression?

With regard to DUP, he makes very good points in many of his posts. It's surprising sometimes the kinds of things you will hear if you take the time to listen.

jazzfan
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DUP,

Update:

Imus' show has now been suspended for two weeks.

What's your punishment going to be?

May I suggest that you write "the" instead of "hte" from now on as a simple way of atonement.

Regarding Imus:

Imus' big mistake was not in what he said but rather in his failure to remember that he is a middle aged white male and therefore not allowed to speak like that. Had those words come from a young black male they would have just been the lyrics for a major rap hit recording. Go figure.

Jan Vigne
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What would this forum be like without 70% of the posts being either by dup or about dup? Is that why he is allowed to stay? Because the forum would collapse without his input? So, the moderators would rather watch this forum sink into the muck by allowing this to continue. When does the rudeness stop? "Little black kid" jokes aren't enough to finally get someone booted off here? This isn't funny, this is getting quite sad that this forum is so dominated by one personality that it can't afford to tell him to shove off. This forum sinks lower and lower everyday dup is allowed to pollute its threads. Someone, please, do something about him! This is beyond defensible and this thread is just a joke on everyone who allows dup to continue in his diasgreeable manner. Get rid of dup! Now!!!

bifcake
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Dude,

You don't have to get your panties in a bunch. Live and let live. You can always ignore Dup's posts. Take a deep breath, else you'll die of a heart attack from all the stress you feel from some lousy forums.

Jan Vigne
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Sure, live and let live. Then it will be "a little kike walks into ..." or "a little wetback ...". Finally, if you live and let live in this fashion, the joke will be on you. Dup thinks this is funny and can't or won't have the common sense to be civil. There are moderators who can do something to rein this in. What in the world does this have to do with audio or music?

Buddha
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Hey, on the plus side, Clifton is back!

Yay!

Time for some steak!

tandy
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Welcome back Clifton. Sorely missed.

I think the public can see those gravitating to the scientific and intelligent and those gravitating toward the offensive and ignorant crowd.

smejias
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Yes, we've missed you, Clifton. Welcome back.

ohfourohnine
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Too late, I guess, for you to help keep Jan in the fold. Just flipped over to the "What else.." thread and read her withdrawal statement. Seems a shame that a person who appears to have some considerable knowlege and enthusiasm about music and audio isn't aware that the usual way to make a group endeavor better is to keep working at it.

Stick around anyway. You've been missed.

Jeff Wong
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I always figured Jan was a guy, like the Dutchman, Jan Six, with his first name pronounced, "Yon". But, it's a shame he or she has opted to leave; Jan was a voice I thought helped make this forum a better place. In any case, I'm glad to see Clifton back. I'm all for free speech, but, in my art forum, DUP would've been considered too disruptive and ousted.

ohfourohnine
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I too enjoyed Jan's posts - real good stuff. If your supposition that Jan is a guy is correct, I guess I've just unknowingly added insult to injury. Sure hope you're wrong.

gkc
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Alex, I have no sword to fall on. Only a bad thumb. The point, in case you missed it, is that piling up cliches will only lead you to more cliches. My sin is against the keyboard. Your sin is against the syncretic potential of the human mind. I prefer my errant thumb, in a universe full of bad choices.

Now, as a dedicated DUP scholar, an apostle to the Messiah of (ahem) well-meant verbal chaos, could you muse the obscure for us non-initiates, parse the impentetrable syntax of a true master of malapropisms, and give us the lowdown on what "good points" DUP has been hiding from us? Perhaps you could reveal the inner goodness 'neath the outer stink of what has offended Jan and others?

Surprise us with "the kinds of things" we ought to be "hearing," if only we could see what gold is hiding underneath the murk. Perhaps we have been misreading DUP all these years. Enlighten us to the real meaning behind DUP's apparent verbal hash.

And to think I wasted my life parsing the likes of Blake, Yeats, and Joyce. Much more fertile exegetic ground lies in the profundities of the great DUP. I admit my ignorance. Hell, write a monograph. If you can make sense out of DUP, the world awaits your solutions to even more impenetrable problems -- woes that, I am sure, are simply prolonged by our inabilities to understand the truth underneath the warp and/or weft that fixates us on the surface hodge-podge of conflicting images.

Alex, you could be famous! A translator of the great DUP! I can't wait.

bifcake
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Well, I have to admit that I'm no Yates or Joyce or even Sidney Sheldon, but I am up for a challenge. So, here goes my DUP translation:

It seems DUP is incensed by what he perceives as snake oil that permeates the high end industry. He sees the super expensive cables and record players as epitomizing the things he finds most objectionable. What aggravates him further is what he sees as the moronic conformist notions of various audiophiles who get on the analog or cable bandwagon to proclaim the virtues of these "snake oil" technologies. In a way, he feels like the lone kid in Emperor's New Clothes who screams out "but the king is naked!"

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What would this forum be like without 70% of the posts being either by dup or about dup? Is that why he is allowed to stay? Because the forum would collapse without his input?

No. It's because as disruptive as DUP can be, I really dislike the idea of our censoring or banning him because of his views or the way he chooses to express them. Why shouldn't we do likewise with the ABX "woodies"? Or those from another planet, like May Belt? Or those who recommend products that I personally wouldn't?

And while DUP is outspoken, offensive, and a bully, he also has the essental passion about his hobby, the passion without which there would be no point in listening to our music collections.

Because the forum has a tool to deal with unruly posters -- the capability for others to set their preferences to ignore them -- Stephen and I assumed that those most upset by DUP would avail themselves of that option. The fact that DUP would then be preaching into a vacuum would take care of the problem, we thought. Instead, valued forum members like Jan Vigne have left, which I regret.


Quote:
When does the rudeness stop? "Little black kid" jokes aren't enough to finally get someone booted off here?

I was offended by the "hoe" joke. Does it cross the line? Probably.


Quote:
This is beyond defensible and this thread is just a joke on everyone who allows dup to continue in his diasgreeable manner. Get rid of dup! Now!!!

Stephen and I will talk more about this today.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

bifcake
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I would very much like to have DUP stay. All posts are clearly labeled with the poster's name, so DUP's posts can be avoided even by those who are technically challenged. For those who aren't, it's really easy to silence DUP's posts for your own forum experience. I see no reason to take this any further. Besides, DUP is not a baffoon some make him out to be.

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Alex, I have no sword to fall on. <big snip>

Clifton, this was a delight to read! Wonderfully fun prose. Thanks!

gkc
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Yeats, Alex. It's okay -- so far, this has been a bad century for poetry, and nobody should expect Yeats to be a household name.

Here is my version of the overt substance of DUP. Wire makes no difference in a system's sound, and anyone who thinks it does is stupid and a sucker. For good sound, you must own several 200+ watt/channel amplifiers, no matter how senstive your speakers are, or how your room contributes to the system, and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and a sucker. Everyone in the business of high fidelity sound who advertises in Stereophile (except Van Alstine and Legacy) is a charlatan who is lying in order to hoodwink you out of your cash, and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and a sucker. Anyone who introduces a new product to this forum and is proud enough of it to proclaim its sonic virtues is a liar who, again, is trying to steal your money, and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and a sucker.

Alex, the only thing I (speaking as a literary scholar and former teacher) have against your analysis is that you missed the main theme that lurches through DUP's oeuvre : "...anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and a sucker." THAT's the message.

There is no covert gold 'neath the surface of DUP's tortured prose. It is what it is. DUP is DUP, concerning things audio, and everyone who thinks differently is stupid and a sucker.

By the way, Alex, when you attribute shrewd powers of observation to DUP (i.e., I believe you referred to his ability to dismiss "moronic conformist notions" about tweaks), you become worthy of disciple status. Anyone who can hear what DUP (and apparently you) cannot is entertaining "moronic conformist notions." Concerning music, if you can hear it, it is there, no matter what the locus, real or imaginary. If you CANNOT hear it, it MAY or MAY NOT be there, but you will never know.

I agree with you, however, that nobody should be kicked off the forum unless there is genuine psychic harm resulting from his opinions. DUP is essentially harmless, from my perspective, but I don't harbor resentments to the point of psychic damage -- I just get pissed, protest, and move on. I am sorry, too, that Jan felt violated by DUP's coarse joke, but that is always a personal call. The joke, after all, is not even DUP's. To paraphrase the mob who cornered Cinna in Julius Caesar ( "Burn him for his bad verse..."), I would say, simply, "Scourge him for his lack of originality." If the pun were genuinely funny, I would harbor deeper conflicts about its offensiveness, because I'll laugh at 'most anything, but it isn't at all funny.

So, keep him around, John and Stephen. Just don't put up with any of his delusional bullshit. Or mine either, for that matter...

Cheers, all, and happy tunes.

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That's an excellent post, Clifton. I'm Switzerland in this mess, but I think you summed things up nicely.

ohfourohnine
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It is hard to accept that a person at your stage in life doesn't understand the gravity of inflicting some kind of punishment on someone just because you don't like what he said. If DUP is banished, who goes next? The free market approach of the ignore button is the only approach which doesn't guarantee to do more harm than good.

By way of a word of caution, Erik, regarding using Switzerland as a synonym for neutral. Switzerland quietly made lots and lots of money while, for the record, staying out of a couple of major wars. Not something to be proud of.

CECE
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Don't have time to respond, or apologize, I'm a good person, who did a bad thing. I have to practice for my new radio show Monday. DUP'S Way in the morning. Have you heard about the opening for MSNBC/CBS? It's gonna mostly spotlight college sports and stuff. With some comentary, and peersonal side notes etc. should be good. Don't forget to listen. We will have very little compression on the signal, so the full dynamics of the show get's through. We will have beauty experts on, hair stylists, everything involved with SPORTS. WDUP. Listen in Am STEREO!!! For the finast sound, does AM Stereo still exist? Nice AM fidelity, bzzzzzz, crackle, hisssss

gkc
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Clay, I don't think Erik has violated his birthright neutrality. I honestly don't think DUP sees the raillery as punishment -- from all I can infer, his persona is ironclad in its insulation from criticism. He probably sees himself as a voice crying in the wilderness, against the audio trumpery that, to him, de facto and de jure , resides in any poor soul's system that is not Van Alstine and Legacy, strung together with baling wire and plugged into industrial strength transformers.

Now, I am as compassionate as anyone, but DUP doesn't answer that call. He is what he is. It's simply more fun to verbally moon him. There's no harm in it. Invulnerability is an essential part of his charm.

Cheers, and happy tunes.

gkc
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Thanks for the kind words, Erik. I love Switzerland. The Swiss eat their chocolate and store their gold. We, unfortunately, fill our gold with chocolate. Fort Knox -- 20 zillion kilos of Hershey's finest, coated with the glitz.

And, they make Basis turntables...not to mention the darTZeel and Nagra electronics. Now, why would anyone prefer this to AVA? Some of us have no taste, I guess.

Cheers, and happy tunes.

Jan Vigne
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Curse insomnia! Curse tax time! Curse those who swear to leave a forum and then appear once again! Most of all curse what I am likely to put in print with only two hours sleep.

Clifton, your eloquence has roused me from a restless night. I find much of your analysis of Dup to be quite accurate. What I disagree with is your conclusion that his gravest offense, the joke that lingers in the air around this discussion like the stench of a belching drunk, should be dismissed merely because it was not original. When exactly is racism and bigotry original? When Imus throws off his now fatal three words? How much thought went into Imus' words before they left his mouth? How much time do you suspect it took Dup to pen his "copy and paste" joke? I would say Dup had enough time to consider the effect his joke would have on those who read it and with considered intent went on to mock the rules of engagement that have to this point allowed him to push the envelope of civility knowing he faced no retribution.

I am all for originality and agree that it makes a large difference between "keep him on" and "toss the bum out". Originality is the difference between early Lenny Bruce and late Lenny Bruce. Between Red Foxx and Mr. Foxx's version of Fred Sanford or between Archie Bunker and J.J. Walker. Most definitely it is the difference between Richard Pryor on stage and Richard Pryor on fire. Despite the fact there are those who set their VCR's for his next appearance, Dup is all of the latter and none of the former.

Should Dup be punished for one blunder? Did CBS, NBC and a hundred sponsors make the right call? That is what an editorial staff must decide in this case. Just what psychic damage was intended? Not to those of us who already know Dup is very capable of such antics but rather what will be the effect on those who stray into Dup's web unsuspecting of the danger ahead? This issue is not about the past Dup but about the future Dup and the future he holds for the Stereophile forum if his intent is not tamped down. Is Dup truly a good person who did something bad? Or is this just another mockery Dup employs in an attempt to pull the wool over our eyes? Should Dup go into rehab for his crime or will that merely delay the inevitable Mel Gibson moment? Even if Dup is the good person he believes himself to be, do you doubt George Wallace thought of himself as a good person when he stood with the mob before those few black students many years ago? Racism is racism, new or old. It is never original and it is never perpetrated or allowed by "good" people.

JA hestitates to dismiss a contrarian. Quite understandably so. Censorship of your critics is totalitarianism run amock. We see that everyday and I am not asking for the silencing of someone with whom I disagree. But consider what value contrarian views have when they are spoken by the false prophet. How easy is it to be contrary without proposing an midground? Dup sticks his thumb in most everyone's eye and calls it truth-telling. But engage Dup in any one of his rants and he quickly falls into illogical, nonsenical contrivances that have nothing to do with his "truth". He can't back up his yells of "Charlatan!" He stands naked just as he suggests the emporor has no clothes. If JA wishes an opposing view similar to Dup's, give alomst any of us with passion for this hobby a topic and fifteen minutes with a search engine and we too can become the same sort of contrarian that Dup has called his style. All hat, no cattle as we say in Texas.

Dup has finally crossed a line that I feel strongly about. If nothing is done about that step, the next line is sure to be crossed. Who else then will finally say, "Enough!"?

Too late to try to get more sleep. I suspect I'll get to bed this afternoon and upon waking I will read this post and curse myself in the evening.

Good morning and good luck in making the right decision.

jazzfan
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Jan,

In spite of your lack of sleep you managed to to write a very nicely put together post.


Quote:
JA hestitates to dismiss a contrarian. Quite understandably so. Censorship of your critics is totalitarianism run amock. We see that everyday and I am not asking for the silencing of someone with whom I disagree. But consider what value contrarian views have when they are spoken by the false prophet. How easy is it to be contrary without proposing an midground? Dup sticks his thumb in most everyone's eye and calls it truth-telling. But engage Dup in any one of his rants and he quickly falls into illogical, nonsenical contrivances that have nothing to do with his "truth". He can't back up his yells of "Charlatan!" He stands naked just as he suggests the emporor has no clothes. If JA wishes an opposing view similar to Dup's, give alomst any of us with passion for this hobby a topic and fifteen minutes with a search engine and we too can become the same sort of contrarian that Dup has called his style. All hat, no cattle as we say in Texas.

The paragraph quoted above I don't believe could be expressed better even if you at slept very well at a Holiday Inn Express. However, in spite of all of your elegant prose I feel that you're missing a central point of the whole issue surrounding DUP's racial joke and Imus' racially tinged remarks. Taking strong action against racially insensitive language, while a much needed and useful activity, is basically useless without following up those actions with meaningful steps towards removing the root cause of such language: racism.

Banning racially insensitive language is only treating a symptom of the much deeper and more hurtful disease of racism. I agree that DUPs little joke has no place on this or any other forum but now that it's here one must ask oneself what is really going to accomplished by banning DUP and his offensive language. Will there be any less racism in DUP or the world? I think not. I may be very liberal in many of political beliefs but I am not nor have I ever been in favor of "political correctness". Sure I understand that DUP's joke goes well beyond the bounds of "political correctness" but nonetheless trying to change someone's beliefs by banning the use of certain language does not and will never work.

In other words, call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner. And to many people in the US never get called to dinner.

bifcake
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Let us not moralize. It's not our place. Whatever we may feel about the success or failure of DUP's jokes, there is no accounting for taste. Leave him be, I say.

Clifton, I confused Yates with the Yeates woman who drowned her children (was it Susan?) So Sue me?

Jan Vigne
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I confused Yates with the Yeates woman who drowned her children (was it Susan?)

Andrea. And she was re-tried and judged not guilty by way of insanity. Not an easy plea in this state. The jury decided she had no sense of right and wrong at the time of her crime unlike others who face severe punishment for similar deeds. She will spend the rest of her life in a Texas mental insitution as she is truly disturbed and can only benefit from some degree of mercy and then here is the fact that Texas mental insitutions are no walk in the park.

I am certainly not proposing that punishing Dup will in any way change his behavior. Only Dup can do that and since there has been nothing resembling an honest "I was wrong and I am sorry" only statements that he has been misunderstood, I doubt that any change will occur at any time in the near future. However, the longest journey begins with the first step.

So, shall we just wait for Dup to take that next step over the line because stopping him now would teach him nothing? To engage in a Dupian didactic, if you could predict a disastrous train wreck, would you have lunch or insult someone who just bought new cables?

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...To engage in a Dupian didactic, if you could predict a disastrous train wreck, would you have lunch or insult someone who just bought new cables?

I'd do both

Jan Vigne
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And I suspect you're not the only one who would take that route, probably both at once. Gentlemen, I think it is once again time for me to take my leave of the forum until another time when the mask and silver bullet are called upon.

I believe most of us can see the high ground I have staked out and understand how to get there also. Unfortunately, the live and let live crowd has used the fulcrum of "what's the big deal, no one was hurt" to place a boulder upon the most straight forward path. Possibly that opinion is mostly true in the majority crowd that populates this forum. However, that is a position which says only certain members need apply to this country club we call audio and that Dup can carry on, if not escalate, his activity by way of tacit approval. I hope you understand why I feel uncomfortable with that position.

There is little to be gained by a constant "let him live" against an opposing cry of "kill him". We could and have done this for long periods of time with no movement in either direction. Should Dup go? I think I've made my position quite clear on that matter and explained my reasoning for my decision. I also believe Stephen and John must make the decision, not those of us on the forum. This seems to be yet another choice of the best option among the many worst cases scenario. I have made a compromise available to both SM and JA through a private message. Actually, I find anything short of letting loose of Dup in a very small dingy without supplies would be unfortunate, but compromise is better than nothing. Therefore, I suggest rather than continuing to butt heads on either extreme, the forum members who feel they have something to say should work on a compromise solution that would help Stephen and John come to a better decision which might in fact be best for all concerned. So, there is the challenge; what are John and Stephen to do with Dup to make the most people happy and ensure that a repeat performance of any Dup'isms do not occur? Seek the middle ground, folks.

I shall take my leave. The forum and the compromise are in your hands, gentlemen.

HiHo, Silver. Away!

jazzfan
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Jan,

It seems you give us a choice: Jan or DUP

In Jan's favor: he write much better than most forum members and certainly better than DUP.

In DUP's favor: He provides a voice against hi-fi snake oil and voodoo.

Things not in Jan's favor: he's completely intolerant of others, particularly DUP, he has no sense of humor and he thinks that what goes on a little audio related forum has tremendous bearing on the world at large.

Things not in DUP's favor: he can't write, spell and type worth a damn, he's at times rude and crude and he told the a bad and very racist joke.

There may be other factors both good and bad for each individual but these appear to be the main ones regarding the present disagreement.

I say we ban both of them along with myself and Jeff Wong. Why Jeff Wong? Because looking at his avatar kinda gives me a headache and I'm a life long migraine sufferer who should not have to be exposed to those kind of headache inducing images. Sorry Jeff, but you gotta go!! And why should I be banned, as if that's not already obvious? Because I can't stand to listen to just about any audiophile approved music, especially the sacred and most holy "Jazz At The Pawn Shop". Sorry Jazzfan but you too must hit the road.

In closing I have two words for Jan: Lighten Up!!!

Jeff Wong
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Joined: Sep 6 2005 - 3:28am

I used to read all of DUP's posts, but, after awhile (some point past the 1000 mark -- I hung in a relatively long time) I just found his stuff tiring, devoid of anything new to say, and it made me not enjoy being here. Rather than leave, I placed him on ignore. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially because I actually met him, and hoped that he might have something truly positive to offer the community, but, he failed in my eyes. It is unfortunate that so many people have quoted him, because this led to my having to read his drivel regardless of my efforts to be DUP-free. It would be unfair, and I say this half jokingly, but, I do wonder if the default setting could be to have him on ignore to start so that newcomers can opt in rather than opt out.

Ralph - I just saw your post. Sounds like a plan. Ban us all. It'd be most democratic and a good final solution.

Elk
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Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am

I'm not particularly concerned with DUP's posting of one unclever tiresome joke in bad taste. Unless one is a member of the chronically aggrieved, we can all handle the occasional bigoted comment. If it happens again, ban him on this basis but not for this one lapse in judgment.

The much bigger issue is his bullying, name calling and the like. I have no problem with a contrarian and thoughtful respectful debate with one who disagrees. This beneficial to both participants. Unfortunately this is not what occurs; DUP engages in insult filled shouting matches.

I don't see his posts as passionate, but rather full of hatred and intolerance of those who do not share his views.

Yet, once in a while he actually helps someone or adds something constructive. It does happen! I've seen it.

I see no sense in being tolerant of the intolerant, nor in accepting the behaviors of the abusive. There are many places where such people can spit their venom. I avoid these people and their hang-outs.

I propose that the powers inform him that his style of discourse is wholly unacceptable, and that he be banned if he cannot behave any better than a spoiled pre-school brat.

Jeff Wong
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Joined: Sep 6 2005 - 3:28am

Elk - Your post reminded me of a quick cartoon I dashed off some years ago:

smejias
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Joined: Aug 25 2005 - 10:29am

Here's what I'm going to do. I hope you can appreciate my decisions, even if you don't agree:

1. I'm not going to ban anyone - not Jeff, not Jan, not Jazzfan, not DUP...
2. I'm going to send the joke to our Dead Zone. I considered doing this from the very start, but noting how it received some very deft responses, I wrongly assumed that the forum had handled it - corrected itself - as it has handled so many other things.
3. I'm going to take a more active role in nurturing the forum. I think, in a lot of ways, I've been something of a passive observer, allowing the forum to take care of itself, and playing more of a customer service / help hotline sort of role - An "I'm here if you need me / Just let me know" sort of thing. I'll still do that, but I'll also contribute more, such as my recent posts on Hi-Fi Happiness and Banning the Youth.
4. I'm going to lock this thread, as well as Jan's "What else" thread. I think things have played themselves out, and it's time to move on.
5. I'm going to hope for the best, and keep rocking on.

Thanks, everyone, for your help, patience, understanding, and support. We appreciate it.

Thank you for making this forum.

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