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June 24, 2008 - 7:15pm
#1
How come mics are not talked about, since they add their sound to teh original recordings, that now
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I've told this story before, I think, but in 1992, I got some college credit for computer wrangling on my college jazz ensemble's recording project. (Coincidentally, one of the other guitarists on the recording went on to be the president of Metric Halo, who make some of JA's recording gear) At one point in the project, the jazz prof brought in a guy to record some of the trickier stuff (ever recorded a 25 piece jazz band? It's hard), and the guy brought some unbelievably rare and expensive mics, which is how I ended up playing my $500 classical guitar into a $4000 Sennheiser tube mic. Somewhere or another, I still have a CD of the recording.
Nobody will ever be able to tell me again that it's impossible to improve on live sound. My classical guitar sounds good, but not that good. Especially not with me playing it.
There are actually several magazines about recording and "pro music" that cover that topic quite well.
Dave
I would happily pay $4000 for any mic that could improve the sound of my playing! Where do I get one?
That's where i got teh idea there should be some mic stories in Stereophile.....since they always talk about how this foot or that connector makes something sound so much better, bring it back to reality, talk about the source, Pro Audio Review, MIX magazine, Pro Sound News.... Since Stereophile is about the playback end, but a mic sotry once in a while would be interesting, but probably the only one capable of doing it would be JA, since he actually does it, and has teh technical smarts about how the stuff actually does what it does. MF, and others basically are story tellers, based on imagination, with no techincal knowledge, at least I don't get that inference from their writings, it's usually non testable dreams. JA puts facts into his writings. Which is where mics start, then talk about teh sound. Tlelfunken U.S.A. shows a $15K mic!!! Holy moly, the age old question, what would that do, over a $500 AKG? Is it really doing anything better? It sure LOOKS impressive, but they are LARGE, look tough to work with.
I think John Marks does recordings on regular basis and I remember him discussing mics in his column a few months back.
http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=4547
http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=4548
Yes, John Marks has discussed mics and different recording and mic techniques. For instance:
Ribbon mikes
A brief history of putting microphones in front of things
The strong desire to make a high-quality recording of something
John Marks has done a great job explaining a bit about recording and introducing audiophiles to some wonderful recording equipment.
Mic selection and placement is complex combination of art and science. It is absolutely fascinating, but something that Stereophile could not possible cover. Without a great deal of explanation the basic information that could reasonably be included (such as mics used on a project) would not mean anything to the average reader. Plus, as Dave pointed out, there are lots of good sources for this information already.
The difference in sound created by various microphones and mic'ing techniques is pronounced. A ribbon mic sounds very different from a small diaphragm condenser, etc. Some of the books on recording come with CDs of examples - a great way to learn.
Good microphones are expensive and better mics make a tremendous difference. However, like all things audio, once a certain point is reached the improvements are subtle.
Lionel's story is great and very accurate. And Metric Halo makes some very nice recording equipment - fun connection.
Interesting but outdated...watt's DAT, I don't know an obsolete medium...recording to a hard drive is now mainstream and cheap. KORG MR1000 changes everything.....See, y aneed up to date articles, not something from 6 years ago, things sure do change fast, even mics have come down in price with some stiff competition, my AKG C3000B all around mics do most things quite well for like $339 and I've seen em for less now, they list to close to $600. Superb not made in CHINA, made in Austria, let's keep them working too OK? Even the shock mount is made in Austria, see, good stuff is still out there, ya don't need to buy cheap junk, buy right priced good stuff, do some research The Korg was well under $1000 even though it lists for like $1200, shop around, LKet's have some current updates on stuff...I was gonna go with some TeleFunken...replicas...they have some nice made in U.S.A. now a mere $15K each for one model....I don't think so Homie....that's EACH, who uses that stuff?
Sorry, DUP. Not only are Mr. Mark's articles relevant, the little Korg is merely a blip on the radar - neat toy but far from revolutionizing recording.
Similarly, your mics are perfectly fine entry level mics but far from special. You obviously don't want to know what truly good mics actually cost.
Great stuff to learn on and to otherwise enjoy, and both are a great buy. However, they are far from recording workhorse quality, much less state of the art.
You are no different from the rest of us. The mere fact that you own something does not make it the end all of available products.
Everything can be better, but I have a knack for buying stuff that does it's jobs well and doesn't cost into the level of Absurd.......Sy Syms was my uncle.... Actually the AKG C3000B is like middel range for their line of great stuff, not made in China, it matters. 3000B is perfectly suited for what i am doing with it, can deal with 140+ dB SPL, can handle the range of what I am doing with Aplomb....If DUP says it, it must be. You'll understand one of these days....
http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/quality,85/brand,zzounds/akg-c3000b-7dff0afa00ec38e0bb21f906265c7910.jpg
It talks of DAT as teh end all, that hard drives are expensive THAT is not relavant no mo', things change in the years, move with it, don't be on a rotary phone, in a touch tone world, no cell phone, even touch tone is obsolete.
http://www.telefunkenusa.com/products/show_product.php?item=1&cat=mics Gonna give these 2 a run tonite...neat stuff, armed guards bring them into the event
Absolutely!
They are well suited for quick and easy field recordings, as is the Korg - great little portable unit with good solid sound.
Hey, DUP, welcome to the microphone party...a decade or so late.
Stereophile issued a microphone differential sample on their first Test CD.
Just think, you could have discovered all this a decade sooner!
Yeah, why doesn't Stereophile talk about this kind of subject?
Hint: Start with track 5 on the first Stereophile disc. I bet even you can find your way to the ecommerce section of the site.
I got those discs. Now what? So years ago , and many issues back, they wrote something about mics........and now........years have passed, new models are out, new mic electronics, ...of course writing about mic techniques hasn't changed with new models, but if the old stuff is what I should read, then I'll also stick to the original Dynaco reviews since they covered pre amps and amplifiers....why should I read about current stuff, pre amps and amps still do the same functions.......they reviewed an AR speaker decades ago, so speakers are done....oh wait, they did a re review of old stuff, they tried that Advents, some other 30+ year old speakers.....no need for anything else. They did a Henry Kloss table radio, why did they have to do the Ferarri one then? O'...cus it was something new.....
Most people reading Stereophile don't do much recording, hence, they're not particularly interested in mics and recording techniques. Once in a blue moon, it makes for an interesting curiosity, but for the most part, dwelling on microphone or recording topics would bore the majority of the audience to death since they're strictly interested in playback. Add to that the 50-50 content to ad ratio and now you have to decide what to exclude in lieu of the mic articles.
More mic talk, less wire talk. JA photos, articles about his live recording ventures, show how all the stuff gets onto the CD in teh first place....and all kinds of cool equipment, real equipment, not magic $27K CD players, but stuff that really does stuff, and priced like real stuff. And notice it's all DIGITAL recording.....analog is......obsolete......and digital recording has progressed, better than the first Stereophile CD. JA's recording setup still doesn't cost as much as MF's spinning platter, which .....spins!!!!! If there where more recording articles, it would get readers educated that the cable elevators, or magic AC cords, have no purpose, do nothing, since the recording is where it starts....using generic AC line cords etc.
But DUP, you would absolutely freak when you learn how many studios pay attention to irrelevant things like power conditioning, quality cables (not just the cheap stuff - even <gasp> audiophile cables), use Pass and Classe amps, expensive speakers, specialized power cords, vibration control devices, etc.
You would see lots of stuff you can't abide.
Your heart couldn't take it.
THIS is what a reality based recording setup looks like, I don't see any magic blocks, pucks, dots, fluids, etc. To think all that data is running through mere WIRES, without proper magic applied, and yet, it all comes out just fine. http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/1689/size/big/password//sort/1/cat/508
DUP you picked a bad example if you think this supports your position that cheap inexpensive equipment makes good recordings.
Mr. Atkinson employs wonderful equipment, even on location.
Let's start with the microphones, Neumann M150 tube mics $8,400.00 each. Magnificent mics.
B&K (now DPA) 4006 Omni directional mikes ~$2,000.00 each
dCS904 A/D converters ~$7,500.00 each
a PS Audio Power Plant ( I know how much you love PS Audio).
Meridian 518 Mastering Converter, pretty ancient at this point, ~$1,500.00 15 or so years ago.
Kimber Palladium AC cables
Various Audio Quest, Kimber and Cardas cables.
Then there are mic preamps, headphones, digital recording equipment, a computer, software, stands, etc.
We haven't even addressed mastering equipment.
Thus, for somewhere around $50k-$60k we have a nice solid location recording set up.
How is that heart of yours doing?
Excuse me for interrupting, but I would love to learn how many studios (and which ones) pay attention to these audiophile concerns. Is it only the "audiophile" recording companies, such as Chesky? Have you any links, Elk?
That's a great question.
All serious studios have good amplification and speakers for monitoring, and mastering studios have listening setups that we would all adore (great equipment, perfectionist room and placement).
All use good quality cables and pay a great deal of attention to dressing and routing. Some use exotic cables, but most are using well made, well engineered cable such as Mogami and Canare with Neutrik connectors. (Redco Audio is a great source).
All are hung up on electronics. Mic preamps and converters (DAC and ADC) get huge attention and studio types argue over and discuss this equipment constantly. Mixing boards are incredibly expensive and much care goes into choosing and maintaining them. Then there are all the effects and processors, EQ, compressors, etc. - people will almost come to blows over these.
Grounding schemes are always carefully considered and employed. Power conditioning is common. Some studios run completely balanced AC.
Certainly Chesky, ECM and others really, really approach this process as an audiophile might (more acoustic, less compression, less EQ, etc.) - but all studios desperately care about their recordings and sound.
There is lots of info about studios and recording on the web, including active forums. A bit of Googling should locate what you are interested in exploring.
No, I picked a good example, I wasn't refering to the price of all the cool stuff, but the lack of magic wires, puffs, pucks, lifts, and other assorted "audiophile" nonsense, that has no bearing on anything based in reality, other than from the minds of hucksters and ad makers. Notice the wires here and there to and fro.....no mapleshadey lifts, triangles, etc. Just real equipment. Do ya really need 15 mics? That seems a bit much....
Great question, which you can't answer....most studios ain't got audiophile cable nonsense....rugged well made to standards, that mean something, not mystical BS, that "audiophiles" fall for, and really don't get even teh most basic of electrical concepts...so they buy cable "elevators" and other assorted junk. Portable recorders keep getting cheaper and cheaper, better and better.
JA's remote setup has lots of "magic wires", and even a PS Audio Power Plant, equipment you have regularly railed against. My guess is that he just enjoys hauling it around.
Does one need fifteen mics? It depends. Many rock and blues recordings will have around ten mics on the drums alone.
Cables in studios: it depends on the studio and the budget. All carefully choose their cables. It is not uncommon to see specialty cables in studios. For example, Steve Hoffman uses expensive handmade cables throughout. There are many other examples as well (you are good at googling, you should be able to find quite a few).
Expensive microphones, expensive preamps, expensive converters - all these things make a positive difference if you think of the best way to spend your money and don't buy what will not improve the sound.
Portable do it all boxes are getting better. The preamps and converters are not up to snuff yet, but they will continue to improve as well.
Again, DUP, you need not use any of these things if you do not want to. Just as I can't imagine interjecting an inexpensive EQ into my system, you need not use those things you eschew.
Do you think JA mighta also get a "discount" on purchasing the equipment in use...which would lead one to use certain items, he does have lotsa cool stuff Grade A..Ps is hardly ion the realm of anything of any worthwhile stuff though Thinking about lotsa mics, I guess it would certainly aford some very flexible working with the signals, you would have all kinds of input to manipulte the final result, all cool stuff...except for PS stuff..lotsa cool mixers, converters, mics....o la la......JA needs to come down to Joisey and record Matt Oree at a local joint!!!! like in Leggets in Manasquan.....4 musicans that sound like 10....what a fantastic group of musicans. Or at Magee's in Pt Pleasant...all small places without being cramped, but not large hallsIt would give Ja a chance to hone his recording skills on an entirely differet music style.....lotsa nice PEAKs on teh max levels.....test out those mics the AKG C3000B can take like over 140dB SPL before it gives .5% distortion, I've seen much more priceir units not handl anything close to that, it's a very versitle mic, just no good for ZITHERD, but everything else, makes cymblas sound fine...shiiiiiiimer...snap and LIVE. www.mattoree.com
I'm certain Mr. Atkinson gets some of his equipment on accommodation, but this doesn't change the fact that it is wonderful stuff and necessarily expensive.
His recording of Attnetion Screen came out very well, with a mixture of close micing, DI and more traditional classical recording techniques.
A good blues band (performing with minimal amps as this group does) and recorded this way would have a glorious sound. This would be great. I'd buy it.
Large diaphragm condenser microphones, like your AKG, typically can handle large SPL before having any sort of problem, but even ribbon mics can routinely handle 135dB or so (just don't blow directly into them). Pretty amazing stuff.
Yes they are good stuff is always cool...lotsa good stuff is even cooler.....except for PS. But after recording with so may mics, there is so much information to put together, it can be an endless choice of what goes where over what.....now it's back to personal choice of what sounds the way you think it should, but quality stuff is out of the sound completely...but then where you put the mics, affects what it sounds like, more dilema, it's endless, and more endless.....but good stuff is always cool to play with. Good stuff, without the magic BS that aflicts too many "audiophile" items.....
Hard to argue with this.
Actually, the Power Plants are quite amazing, especially when recording on location. Power at the typical performing hall or church is dreadful. Mic preamps are sensitive critters given the tiny signal they are addressing.
Very true.
The odd thing about recording is that it is both art and artifice. What sounds best and more "real" as reproduced is not necessarily that which is most "accurate" or true to the actual sound at the event. Our little pea brains get in the way some times; we hear differently at different times/locations.