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Serious consideration ought be given to shutting down this failed experiment. INTERESTING...
Obviously there are insufficient resources to nurture it into something that would attract increasing membership (I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TRUE, IN ANY CASE IT'S NOT OBVIOUS TO ME)and one must question its comic relief value as source material for the (forums) Administrator's blog (NOT USUALLY THE CASE)

As things stand... as amply demonstrated by the recent music to listen to while watching porn thread (I READ THAT AS HUMOR), and of course the nonstop rants of the dememted DUP (GOT A POINT THERE)... it is little more than the private playpen for some weird individuals. TRUE, IT IS, PARTLY, A PRIVATE PLAYPEN FOR WEIRDOS. IT'S ALSO A SOURCE OF SOMETIMES VERY USEFUL ADVICE AND INFORMATION SHARING.
Personally I'd rate it as a blight on the industry and a stain of the publication's reputation.

I'D RATE IT AS HAVING GOOD PARTS AND BAD PARTS - AND THE BAD IS FROM SOME OF THE FOLKS POSTING JUNK OR ATTACKS OR OBSESSIVE ARGUMENTATION - NOT FROM THE FACT OF STEREOPHILE HAVING A DISCUSSION FORUM. IMO.

Goodbye and good riddance.

I VOTE TO CARRY ON.

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Serious consideration ought be given to shutting down this failed experiment.

Obviously there are insufficient resources to nurture it into something that would attract increasing membership and one must question its comic relief value as source material for the (forums) Administrator's blog.

As things stand... as amply demonstrated by the recent music to listen to while watching porn thread, and of course the nonstop rants of the dememted DUP... it is little more than the private playpen for some weird individuals.

Personally I'd rate it as a blight on the industry and a stain of the publication's reputation.

Goodbye and good riddance.

You'll be back.

ALL discussion forums have their guys out in left field- that doesn't mean the entire enterprise is a failure. What? a light-hearted thread of music and porn got your underpants all twisted up?

The Entry level and other various equipment/music sections are consistently good quality with many members trying to be helpful and encouraging in whatever ways possible. Guess you don't see that value in that.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

I'll take this opportunity to thank the many individuals who have decided to spend time here in our forum, making it an exciting, entertaining, and interesting place, and a valuable resource to audiophiles and music lovers of all levels of experience.

What I most love about this forum is that it provides a way for Stereophile's editors to communicate, almost immediately, with you, our readers. We learn from each other and inspire each other. I think we're very lucky to have this forum, and I hope it continues to grow.

Thank you.

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What? a light-hearted thread of music and porn got your underpants all twisted up?

Now there's an image.

I was thinking about this recently. The forum seems most useful when a newbie wanders in and asks a question. Generally we do a pretty good job in that regard.

However, it's upsetting to see how mired many regulars get in negative, energy robbing discussions (fights?). It's just too prevalent here for my comfort. Audiogon and AudioAsylum are much more tightly monitored and there are still disagreements, but they stay civil. There are one or two people here that wouldn't be able to post anything at A'gon, IMHO.

So I suggest considering much tighter monitoring. Some people will scream bloody murder, but in the long haul I think that the forum will benefit and grow well beyond the current small group of positive contributors. Some of my favorite audiophiles reside here, but two or three malcontents do rob the place of most of its positive energy.

Dave

The world is full of a great variety of people.
I find tolerance to be the least stressful and most beneficial way of dealing with that variety.

Intolerant people calling for bans etc. are the only variety I ever find mildly annoying. :-)

Leave that door ajar, you might want to come back.

I think it's a cartoonish statement to say that this forum is somehow doing a disservice to the publication or the audiophile community in general, because of certain recurring problems (admittedly, there are problematic elements surfacing of late.) I can testify that I came into this as a total newbie to hi-fi, and have learned tremendously. I've met a few of the members here, and I consider them as my friends. Even those whom I haven't met in person, I am very fond of them. There is a real sense of community here which is more tightly knit and, okay, eccentric, which I appreciate. I can't find this type of camaraderie anywhere else on the audiophile-web.

That said, I must agree with dcstep. This forum is still fantastic about helping newbies find their ways, but somehow, things have taken a turn for the worse in certain threads. I never imagined I'd be reading careless toss-offs about genocides and xenophobia here. There should be a zero-tolerance policy for that kind of crap, no matter who the member is. Plus, the "Charts & Graphs" thread is getting out of hand. It's gone on to nearly 40 pp and it's still the same hamster wheel of the constant name-calling & obstinacy. There's a lot of posturing and theorizing, but nothing new has come into the discussion except active perpetuation of hatred & insults. If someone told me that he left after seeing that, I'd completely understand, although I'm sorry that he'd be missing out on so much else that is here. Someone please let that thread die.

I think something has to be done here. I believe it's unfair for Stephen to solely shoulder the moderation of offensive material/members. There should be some invisible hand that nips the problem in the bud; excising gratuitously offensive posts or even suspending offending members. The policy should be clearly stated, and when someone is in violation of that policy, the policy should be enforced to the letter. As it is now, if Stephen decides to ban a member or kill a post, it can become too political.

I'd like to thank dcstep about bringing this problem to the fore.

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I'll take this opportunity to thank the many individuals who have decided to spend time here in our forum, making it an exciting, entertaining, and interesting place, and a valuable resource to audiophiles and music lovers of all levels of experience.

What I most love about this forum is that it provides a way for Stereophile's editors to communicate, almost immediately, with you, our readers. We learn from each other and inspire each other. I think we're very lucky to have this forum, and I hope it continues to grow.

Thank you.

I agree. I think that overall, this is a good, fun forum. As one of the offending members, I have to point out that I post the wacky posts in the Rants and Raves section. I'm pretty serious and measured in every other section of the forum. I don't even engage Jan in any other forum. So, I think it's important to separate what we see in the Rants and Raves section vs what we see every place else.

As far as the other complaints, I actually enjoy the laid back moderation of these forums. We're not little kids. Do we really have to run to mommy every time someone calls us a name? It's fun to have Jan call me an immoral, thieving, something or other because I sneaked a peek at a dealer's wholesale price on his computer while he was pulling up some data. It's fun to have DUP go on about requiring a megawatt of power to drive 100db speakers. It's even fun to have someone get upset over all of this nonsense, and pronounce that all of this is somehow relevant in the grand scheme of things.

Let's act like adults. Let's play like adults. We can give a few and we can take a few and then we can get together and have a few beers and talk music and shit. It's not a bad thing.

Good idea, maybe we should get rid of the Rants and Raves section. We're only talking a handful of people that could just use email to carry on ther "deep" discussions.

Dave

Although I find the recent threads about "size and acoustics" etc. ridiculous at best, I also don't bother reading it (other than a scan or two early on). I even took on a few of the concepts about the Mpingo controversy and did some experiments making and testing my own and the thread DIDN'T go into 42 pages of ranting. I'd say it was because it was obvious I wasn't going looking for a fight and just wanted to have a little fun trying out a new idea. So it's not like controversial issues or ideas can't be discussed reasonably around here. Mostly they are- the ones that aren't should be ignored 'cause it always takes two (or twenty) to Tango!

Even so, as Alex points out, the wacky or angry stuff mostly IS in the Rants n' Raves section, and if I were to make a guess, most newbies or semi-serious readers/posters don't visit the section all that much. So maybe the Acoustics and Size thread should be moved there? It certainly does nothing to bring down the publication as a whole. I have a good friend who loves reading the magazine, and yet has never read a word in the Forums section- maybe not even visited the main Stereophile site more than once or twice (and yes, he is online quite a bit both a work and at home).

Yeah- I DO think too many people treat online discussions as little more than opportunities to feed their egoic inner children, but that's the danger of open and free speech. You could get that anywhere- a bar, the grocery store line, a PTA meeting, in the lunch room at work or school- wherever. Not everyone is going to be adult about it. Some will show some seriously odd personality defects, and others may appear one step away from being locked up- but even in the "real" world they WOULDN'T get locked up just for being nutty. Usually just ignored! Ranting and arguing are not going to just go away by being militant about every posting and shutting down the oddballs.

We have to police ourselves, and not depend on Stephen or anyone else to be our surrogate parents. Kids have to work things out for themselves, so why would we ask someone else to do that for us now?

In the end, it's all going to depend on us NOT feeding the flames of angry posters or belligerent trolls, and I personally don't think we need to ask an Admin to do it for us, almost ever. The really bad stuff gets canned into the Dead Zone already, so how about if we want to support the health of the forum, we just think twice before hitting that Post button?

Peace Out Audio Brothers!

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...music to listen to while watching porn ...
Personally I'd rate it as a blight on the industry and a stain of the publication's reputation.

Well Porn and stains do go together :P.

Welcome to the Internet, if you plan on leaving careful not to let the door hit you on the way out, its a big one.

I think we need to maintain a bit of civility, no doubt about that. Disagreement and discussion is how we learn. If my ideas and beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny then that is nobodys fault but mine. The challenge is to express your ideas in a manner that makes them understandable without being offensive. Some folks are much better at this than others.

I find this place interesting and sometimes helpful. The porn and music gig was funny and thought provoking. If I find a topic offensive I can alsways click away. Kinda'like turning off the TV when something offensive like...nevermind. I vote to keep the forum going and appreciate Stereophile staff for giving us the opportunity to show our....ignorance.

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I'll take this opportunity to thank the many individuals who have decided to spend time here in our forum, making it an exciting, entertaining, and interesting place, and a valuable resource to audiophiles and music lovers of all levels of experience.

What I most love about this forum is that it provides a way for Stereophile's editors to communicate, almost immediately, with you, our readers. We learn from each other and inspire each other. I think we're very lucky to have this forum, and I hope it continues to grow.

Thank you.

"Stereophile's editors" ??? The only people from Stereophile who seem to frequent this forum with any degree of regularity are JA, Stephen Mejias and Kal Rubinson. John Marks shows up every once in while and Wes Philips hasn't been seen in ages.

Where are the rest of the editors and writers?

I assume that Robert Reina doesn't participate since he's much too busy editing those four or five pages of music coverage which begrudgingly appear in Stereophile every month. Fremer's too busy fighting with _____ (fill in the blank with the magazine/newspaper/writer who pissed Fremer off this month.) Art Dudley won't dare. And Sam Telling most likely doesn't even own a computer.

As for the rest the MIAs, how about getting a few more of them to pop onto the forum every now and then. It would really help to liven things up a bit.

you can't shut it down. some of these people may have no other contact with the outside world. do we really want to adopt the same policy as our government when it comes to people we don't like? see how well that has worked out. no, we must reach out to our eclectic brothers (where's grosse fatigue these days?).

tom

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I think we need to maintain a bit of civility, no doubt about that. Disagreement and discussion is how we learn. If my ideas and beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny then that is nobody's fault but mine. The challenge is to express your ideas in a manner that makes them understandable without being offensive. Some folks are much better at this than others.

Agreed. (And well expressed)

"As for the rest the MIAs, how about getting a few more of them to pop onto the forum every now and then. It would really help to liven things up a bit. "

Although it could have been said a little more diplomatically, the sentiment is right. The forums would IMO automatically take a few steps up if there were more direct interaction with the magazine writers. It's appreciated quite a lot when it does happen. Often questions that get bandied about and never fully answered would probably be cleared up in a snap by a writer with years of experience to draw upon.

Thanks for taking the appropriate measures over at some of the threads, Stephen. I'm sure it's not only me who appreciates what you've done w/ this forum.

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Although it could have been said a little more diplomatically, the sentiment is right.

I didn't say it "diplomatically" because I don't like being BSed. The fact is that the vast majority of Stereophile's editors and writers DO NOT participate on this forum regardless of JA's and Stephen Mejias' claiming otherwise.

Yeah, me too Stephen.

Dave

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"Stereophile's editors" ??? The only people from Stereophile who seem to frequent this forum with any degree of regularity are JA, Stephen Mejias and Kal Rubinson. John Marks shows up every once in while and Wes Philips hasn't been seen in ages.

Where are the rest of the editors and writers?

Most of us are just trying to make a living and have other day-jobs.

Kal

Kal,

I can appreciate that and I also appreciate the Stereophile editors and writers who do participate on this forum. I just don't appreciate it when I'm told that this forum is an area where the readers of Stereophile can interact with the editors and writers since for the most part that is just not true.

I guess it is just a matter of degree. Kal has been great. The other writers that have posted have been wonderful as well. It would be nice to have more participation but there is only so much we can reasonably expect.

It would be fun to always be able to direct specific questions to one's reviewer of choice.

Well, JA is here, SM is here and KR is here. Together, they can be considered editors. It would be nice to see more writers within these forums, but I do appreciate the ones who do take the time to reply and to engage in discussions even when we disagree. We need to give credit where credit is due.

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Although it could have been said a little more diplomatically, the sentiment is right.

I didn't say it "diplomatically" because I don't like being BSed. The fact is that the vast majority of Stereophile's editors and writers DO NOT participate on this forum regardless of JA's and Stephen Mejias' claiming otherwise.

Hi jazzfan. I didn't say anything about the vast majority or our writers and editors contributing here. I said this forum gives us all the opportunity to communicate. I think that opportunity to communicate is a special thing, despite the fact that we so often fail at properly communicating.

I'm sorry you feel I was bullshitting you. I don't bullshit people. I meant what I said, but I obviously wasn't considering your feelings or imagining how you perceive the situation. I'm sorry. I'll try to be more understanding. You might want to ask me to clarify something before accusing me of bullshitting you.

I would also like more of our writers to contribute to these forums, but, like Kal said, many are busy doing other things, and, I imagine, others simply choose not to visit. It's their choice. If we paid them to contribute to these forums, I imagine they would be more likely to do so, but we do not, and won't.

Also, to Elk's point, if ever anyone wants to reach one of our writers, all you have to do is e-mail me or JA, and we'll pass the e-mail along to that writer. It's not as immediate as this forum could be, but it's another way for your questions or comments to be presented.

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It would be nice to have more participation but there is only so much we can reasonably expect.

Maybe Stephen can set up a PayPal tip jar for forum members to partially compensate participating writers?

"I didn't say it "diplomatically" because I don't like being BSed."

I was unaware that courtesy, respect and a friendly manner were now deemed BS. That would explain the angry and belligerent tone so many discussions take- everyone is "just being honest." It'd really be sad if that were true, but I don't think that's the case.

Go on, assume the worst in others and you usually won't be disaapointed. Me, I'll give the benefit of the doubt (at first anyway) and communicate the way I'd like to be responded to back.

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Also, to Elk's point, if ever anyone wants to reach one of our writers, all you have to do is e-mail me or JA, and we'll pass the e-mail along to that writer. It's not as immediate as this forum could be, but it's another way for your questions or comments to be presented.

Hey, what a neat offer.

Thanks!

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"I didn't say it "diplomatically" because I don't like being BSed."

I was unaware that courtesy, respect and a friendly manner were now deemed BS. That would explain the angry and belligerent tone so many discussions take- everyone is "just being honest." It'd really be sad if that were true, but I don't think that's the case.

Go on, assume the worst in others and you usually won't be disaapointed. Me, I'll give the benefit of the doubt (at first anyway) and communicate the way I'd like to be responded to back.

You are correct, sir. There are civil ways to disagree and it is very disappointing to see brilliant ideas and passionate beliefs expressed with such anger at times. It's like the keyboards have Tourette's and the writers are incapable of moderating their seething contempt. However, I do believe that contention and strife is preferable to indifference and detachment. If it gets too hot, Dead Zone the immature bastards!

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if ever anyone wants to reach one of our writers, all you have to do is e-mail me or JA, and we'll pass the e-mail along to that writer.

We have a dedicated address for such letters: STletters@sourceinterlink.com . I always forward emails sent to specific writers at that address, and Art Dudley, Bob Reina, Michael Fremer, John Marks, Kal Rubinson, and Sam Tellig almost always respond promptly.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

My 2 cents is that this site is great! A great supplement to the mag! It would be good if more writers were here, but if they can't they can't.
While I've never worked at a mag, I would think running one would be 2 full time jobs(at least)! John, I know you edit, write, review,schedule reviews & I don't know what all else!! I don't know were you find the time to be here at all ! I wasn't even aware of the address to send emails to specific writers;cool! John, Stephen,Kal,etal, keep on!!! The archives are also great.
Oh, as for the rude folks,I tend to ignore them. though I do respond sometimes.

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My 2 cents is that this site is great! A great supplement to the mag! It would be good if more writers were here, but if they can't they can't.
While I've never worked at a mag, I would think running one would be 2 full time jobs(at least)! John, I know you edit, write, review,schedule reviews & I don't know what all else!! I don't know were you find the time to be here at all ! I wasn't even aware of the address to send emails to specific writers;cool! John, Stephen,Kal,etal, keep on!!! The archives are also great.
Oh, as for the rude folks,I tend to ignore them. though I do respond sometimes.

Rude folks? what the #$%^#@$%^& are you talking about you g#$%^***( !!!

There aren't any rude %^$$##@ here.