Hi, Elk! Good topic.

At the 1985 or 1986 CES (in the Sahara "low rise") I was strolling down the hall and heard the absolutely most lifelike sound I've ever heard from a system. It was a percussion piece that sounded as if someone were hitting pieces of glass with a hammer.

It sounded so lifelike, I hustled right over to the room to see what amazing system was doing this.

Sure enough, it was an Apogee speaker system being driven by a pair of amps with no-tellin' how many tubes per channel.

BLAM!

BLAM!

A split second later, I realized it was the sound of tubes exploding and the right speaker ribbon was sparking.

Sadly, it was a one time only demo.

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I mention that story first purely because I ran into the room not knowing it was an actual calamity, and for that one fleeting moment, I honestly thought I was about to encounter my first system that sounded "real."

Anyway, I love the subject you raise, because there is so much to it, and one part of my answer will be something that I think is at the subatomic particle level of the Hi Fi hobby...

1) Most

I've not heard a system that fooled me. I have heard recordings that have done a very good job. Without the recording, no system can sound "real". With an excellent recording, some surprisingly low cost systems can sound very convincing. I believe a large part of the problem is how the microphones in most modern recordings capture a limited amount of sound from any instrument or voice. A close mic'd voice or instrument can sound interesting but never, IMO, real. Seven mics on a single drum set doesn't convince me of much.

Listen to a vintage recording when the mic techniques were much less complicated to hear what I mean. I have a mono "Elvis at Sun Records" that is the proverbial jaw dropper and quite convincing in all but the breadth of the stage which is still excellent and has an accurate placement of performers within a somewhat confined lateral space as if you were viewing them from the wrong end of a telescope. Depth on this recording is excellent. I have several archival recordings of jazz groups which were recorded directly to the master disc (before tape was available) that have the correct tone and sense of body but again miss only the breadth of the stage width. Offhand, I can't think of a multi-mic'd recording in my library that was made in the last twenty years that captures the same reality.

Maybe it's just that I don't have enough watts.

Not by the music, but by ambient noises for sure. Often in a live recording if something happens outside the performance I'll give a start and look around for a second and then laugh. I think the thing is that any recording has ambiance or "room" and that sort of gives away something when it's not exactly the room it's being played in.

But I don't mind really- it's "close enough" for me usually. I'm not looking to be convinced I'm there anyway- only a few acoustic recordings would ever be able to do that- rock or anything electric kind of falls intro another realm.

Compare audio vs. video:
A stereo is orders of magnitude more realistic than any video display. That is, a good recording on a good stereo can get quite close to "real". But no one ever ever has thought, while watching a TV, movie, blu-ray, whatever, that those flat 2 dimensional images confined to the surface of a rectangle on a wall are "real".
I imagine it will be 100 years before video attains the level that audio has TODAY.

Yes dbowker!!! I have several well recorded cds, but to my ears the best is my Chesky DVD-A of Bucky Pizzarelli's "Swing Live". It's the Dolby Digital mix as I can't play DVD-A(or SACD)at this time. I have a 1 st generation Toshiba DVD player,a Kenwood receiver & 5 NHT Super Zeros & an NHT SP-2 Sub-woofer; I won't even mention the cables; no laughing! Quick side bar; when I bought the player(1995) I went to Blockbuster & asked if they rented DVDs & the kid at the counter had no idea what I was talking about! I had to explain that a DVD looked like a CD, but had movies on them!! How times have changed!
Anyway, to my ears, the music on this disc sounds great, but the thing that "does it" for me though, is the ambience sounds; dishes rattling, glasses clinking, people chattering quietly(it was recorded in a NYC Jazz club) . I won't say I'm "fooled" by it, but man does it sound realistic!! However, instead of thinking "I've arrived", I wonder how much better this will sound with the latest Oppo player(with DSD output) & Anti- Cables? Of course I'll eventually have to upgrade the receiver too(for multi-channel anyway).
And Jan what you say sounds like the "philosophy" of Mapleshade, Soundkeeper, Chesky among others. Very minimal miking!
I anxiously await my order of 2 cds from Mapleshade.
Also, I recently purchased a Reference Recordings sampler; sounds excellent!! In the notes they describe some of their offerings & list at least 2 that are direct to cd, wonder what a difference that would make?

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Anyway, to my ears, the music on this disc sounds great, but the thing that "does it" for me though, is the ambience sounds; dishes rattling, glasses clinking, people chattering quietly(it was recorded in a NYC Jazz club) .

Most of those people were from the audiophile press as we were all invited. As for the noise, we were given several pep-talks by David Chesky about modulating the level of our chatter and cheering. Of course, we didn't get any credits...................

Kal

Hiya Kal!! You were there? Very cool!!!
Have you ever been "fooled"?
Also, I'm looking forward to your review of the latest Oppo you mentioned last time.

My gut reaction to your post is that live music and recording are different experiences, like reading a play is different from going to the playhouse. The first is mostly a poor substitute, but can be sublime as well when taken on its own terms.

I recall that there is a quote defining an audiophile as someone pursuing sound reproduction as close a possible to the original sound. So it follows that an audiophile would pursue the environment in which he is be fooled by the recording.

Its never happened to me.

However, I have certainly had amazing musical experiences listening to recordings.

Since Buddha told his stories, I'll tell mine. When I was selling audio, I used Kraftwerk's LP "Tour de France" as a demo. When I wanted to demonstrate soundstaging/imaging on a pair of speakers such as the Celestion SL600's which excelled in this area, I'd ask the listener to sit in the near field of the speakers.

As the title song follows the path of a Tour De France cyclist the pace and beat of the track moves from a slow start to the rhythm of a cyclist moving into the front of the racing pack.

A few minutes into the title song the predominant sounds are the derailleur gears of a bicycle circling between the speakers accompanied by the heavy breathing of the cyclist. Clever pan pot manipulation of the stereo (only) tracks brought the gears and cyclist across, between and behind the speakers as the music gained intensity and drive.

As the bicyclist picked up speed he made his first lap beginning in the left speaker and traveled directly across the front of the stage to the right speaker and then behind the speakers at a reasonable depth. As he made his pass the cyclist's breathing became deeper and more stressed as it moved in unison with the sound of the gears rolling faster and faster with each lap and the electronic beat of the music folowing course.

On the next pass the bicycle/cyclist made the same trip except now the sound traveled farther beyond and behind the speakers, the music grew more insistent and then the cyclist passed slightly in front of the speakers. The listeners were almost always transfixed by the sounds travelling passed and away from them in precise location as only a decent system can manage. I watched as their heads slightly shifted to follow the path of the cyclist around the stage.

On the next arc the cycle/cyclist traveled across the soundstage and moved far, far outside and behind each speaker. As the cyclist rounded the bend of the left speaker, music now pounding in unison to his deeply rhythmic breathing, he was now several feet beyond the speaker boundaries. He headed out on the next lap at top speed and rounded the front of the stage sweeping across the room about six feet in front of the speakers as he moved into position for the next go 'round. The pace and drive of the music was now circling the room along with the sound of the gears.

As the cyclist/gears/music passed in front of the listener - almost in their laps - they always leeeeeeeaned back to give the cyclist extra room to pass. After the image had passed their seated position and they realized what had happened, they always had a smile on their face as they gave a little chuckle at their own response. Were they fooled? Well, by the sonic display they were.

I went to JVC R&D facilities in Japan

They have a bunch of rooms filled with all sorts of technology (JVC showing off their design muscles)--It's all very futuristic.

They had a stereo system - two speakers only and a control processor -- it behaved like surround sound.

very clever

Fooled? Close. One of the most convincing systems I've heard was in Cello's fully treated demonstration room at their Manhattan offices around 1996 (the room was heavily treated--spoken voice sounded about the same whether you were 3 feet or 10 feet away; it was very weird to experience). Mark Levinson played a recording he made of Michel Petrucciani on solo piano or a duet with Lee Konitz and the scale of the Grand was impressively accurate. I seem to recall the system featured the Cello Palette, maybe Cello Strings speakers (they were big) and an Apogee digital front end (it was small). Big special doors covered the windows facing the street and almost completely blocked out the street sounds, but, could not entirely, to be legal with Fire Department safety codes.

Only once. It was a really strange feeling. It was an Avantgarde Demo where they demoed the Trio with bass horns. It sounded as though I was right in front of the musicians. Everything was just right: The tone, the scale, detail, just everything. It was driven by a Linn CD player, Manley preamp and Lamm 2.1 amps. Awesome.

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Hiya Kal!! You were there? Very cool!!!

Sure. I can hear me.

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Have you ever been "fooled"?

Not by 2 channel but I have allowed myself to be fooled by a few MCH demos done in unfamiliar surroundings. The Pizzareli comes close.

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Has anyone heard a system that made you think there was actually a performer in the room? If so, what was it comprised of and what instrument(s) were convincingly reproduced?

Man, I must be easy: I'm fooled -- momentarily, at least -- all the fricking time. I can be home, listening to whatever [salsa, of course], and suddenly jump at the dude playing clave in the corner or wonder who's playing my bongos.

So, yeah -- typically, it's percussion instruments that fool me. Voices sometimes, too.

The first time I was really fooled was at a show. [I'm amazed at you dudes' ability to remember precise show locations and years -- I've only been to a handful and they're all a blur to me.] I can't remember where or when or what other components were at play, but I do know that the music was jazz and the speakers were big red horns. Freaked me out.

Hey Stephen,

Was it these?

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Was it these?

Nope, but you inspired me to search through our old Show Reports. I found the answer: They were Acapella Audio somethings -- maybe the SPH

Not me, my neighbours

I was playing Julian Bream on Spendor BC1's (prototypes) driven by Quad II's from a Revox G36

My German neighbour (a female Siemans engineer) came in convinced I was playing Rodrigo

If only...

I never get fooled in the sense that I actually forget I'm listening to my system and believe I'm listening to live musicians but I'm often been startled by how very life-like things sometimes sound.

For me seems to happens most often with high pitched percussive instruments/thingies. For example triangle, bells, and other things I don't even know the names of.

Cymbals, if recorded very well, not at all uncommon with acoustic Jazz recordings in particular (yet hardly ever with rock), can also have a very real-ish presence.

OH, I should add I heard pleanty of actual live performances that sounded a good deal worst that many even only moderately good recordings. Many a PA system is easily upstaged by a decent home stereo in my experience; encountering decent sound at an open space outdoors setting seems pretty rare.

For that matter that sound at the Stones concert in Moncton (2005) was pretty piss poor, not that it mattered much, it was plenty loud and an absolutely fantastic show!

In a casual, party setting, I heard the Ohm A speakers playing a vocal selection. That made me turn my head to look at the singer, then realizing it was a speaker, not a live person. No other speaker before then caused me to react that way to it's sound.

About 5 years later, I heard the Beveridge 2SW speakers at a store. I could pick out individual people applauding. The imaging was that good, from an LP source even, and not a moving coil cartridge used!

Sadly, I have not heard any since then that elicit those reactions. There are quite a few in recent years at the HE shows that do sound very convincing, but I was focusing on careful listening, not casual listening.

Maybe it's easier to fool the ear than we'd like to admit. Doesn't that make DBT increasing in importance to remove visual biases to preserve experimental naivete?

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Maybe it's easier to fool the ear than we'd like to admit. Doesn't that make DBT increasing in importance to remove visual biases to preserve experimental naivete?

I think JA has a good point that people knowing they are in a test effects the results.

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I went to JVC R&D facilities in Japan

They have a bunch of rooms filled with all sorts of technology (JVC showing off their design muscles)--It's all very futuristic.

They had a stereo system - two speakers only and a control processor -- it behaved like surround sound.

very clever

This is the future of surround sound and this why I don't upgrade my processor, a Meridian 568. As they try to sell you 7 speakers today, we won't need more than two in the near future. This is good news for stereo, 2ch music, too.

I tend to agree with JA. However, it may be possible to be in a DBT and be relaxed. One is not trying to satisfy anyone else, but rather to decide if a difference is heard.

Anyway, I threw the DBT in because I bet we all have been fooled by reproduced sound thinking it was live at some time in our lives, but not knowing it. Example: Years ago, I had gone to a party. Arriving at the house and standing just outside the front door, I heard very loud music, and concluded the band was playing. When I got inside, it was a stereo system cranked way up. How did I get fooled? Where's the bias? (Answer: I was told beforehand that the hosts would have a live band there. He didn't get one.)

Thanks Elk. I knew the risk of mentioning DBT in a question form might steer the discussion off-topic. Not my intention to do so, and hopefully my prior response keeps it on-topic.