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dumbo
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Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purchase

This is something I have always been curious about. In a world full of $15K-$150,000K audio dream components it wouldn't seem unreasonable to consider such an option but I don't personally know of anyone who has done it.

I'm not sure how many people out there have enough play cash sitting in their bank accountto be able to drop $15K-$25K on that set of dream speakers they always wanted. I'm sure it's doable for some folks if they saved their pennies for long enough but who wants to wait for a year or three once the audio bug has bitten again.

I must say that I have seriously considered financing several times after drolling over a few sets of speakers I have had my eye on.

When trying to rationalize why financing such a purchase would be a bad idea I can't relay think of too many.

For example, if you were to put this purchase in the same context as something like the purchase of a "Fun Car" for spirited weekend drives it starts to sound more reasonable.

I mean, if someone has enough left over cash after all the bills are paid to be able to afford the purchase of that second car which they may make payments on over the course of 2-5 years then how would the purchase of that dream component be any different?

From what I can tell the depreciation value of high end audio equipment really isn't much worse then that of a sports car once driven off the dealer lot.

What are your thoughts on this and have you ever considered such an option...Thanks

andy19191
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

> What are your thoughts on this and have you ever considered such an option...Thanks

No. Spending spare money on desirable luxuries would seem to me to be a well-balanced, normal thing to do. Borrowing money in order to purchase luxuries is probably only an activity for people with problems (or people that are pretty soon going to have problems).

Buddha
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

I financed my first amp purchase.

I was 15 and mowed lawns and worked for my bro-in-law who was plumber. My sister cosigned and the banker was a great old gentleman who thought I was crazy but gave me a caring introduction to this sort of thing. I opened a savings account, too.

(As an aside, the concept of witholding tax was a real eye opener!)

Paid it off over the school year next summer and would go and chat him up when I'd come in to make deposits and payments.

One of my favorite audio experiences.

Now, I guess Mastercard finances alot of these pruchases!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

It has never occurred to me to finance a stereo system. That is the sort of nonsense that got our economy in trouble in the first place. If you can't afford to pay for it at the register than you can't afford it. It doesn't fall under security. Do us a favor. If you have to ask if you can finance something than please don't do it. We're already buying a lot of houses and General Motor cars right now because people just had to have them and not pay. Just read the magazine. It's cheap.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

I borrowed against my 401K in order to purchase my SOTA turntable some fifteen years ago. Payments were deducted from my paycheck, and the interest went back into my account. Worked out great. I see no difference between this and financing any other major expense, like a house or a car.

To some of us, high-end hi-fi is not a luxury, it's a necessity.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Most shops have financing available. I've sold a fair amount of gear based on a bonus that was in the works and I've sold a few items based on someone's uncontrollable desire to buy something new. I once sold a system to a guy who stated his personal income as $0 and the finance company bought the loan. FICO scores are key.


Quote:
When trying to rationalize why financing such a purchase would be a bad idea I can't relay think of too many.

The issue with most electronics financing is you can't easily pack up a $150k house and drive it to another state.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

You bet your retirement account for sound? Nice.

We deserve to be in an economic crisis.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:
Most shops have financing available. I've sold a fair amount of gear based on a bonus that was in the works and I've sold a few items based on someone's uncontrollable desire to buy something new. I once sold a system to a guy who stated his personal income as $0 and the finance company bought the loan. FICO scores are key.

Don't listen to this guy. He is part of the problem. Just read carefully what he posted above. Make sense? Of course not.

dumbo
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that if you can't afford to pay for something at the register then you can't afford it. Granted being able to pay for every purchase with cash would be a beautiful thing but I don't know that it's very realistic for most people even though over the course of a few years it certainly can be.

The economy is in the crapper because people decided to listen to the Real Estate agent who told them they could afford a $400K house on a $50K or less yearly income.

To throw a number out there, if you have an extra $300 a month after all your other financial responsibilities are met then why would a personal loan for that new component be looked at any differently then a automobile loan? I would think that a Personal loan would be a better option over a credit card since the interest rate is far lower and you would still have the option to double or triple your payments if you wanted.

I wonder how may people who read this beloved magazine can actually afford even a small fraction of the stuff reviewed or listed in the "Recommended Components List" without resorting to a financing option of some sort. Most likely for most slob's like myself, we have to wait for the component to age 3-4 years and pick it up on Audiogon for half it's original value. With this comes the risk of inheriting a lemon that we have no real history of from it's previous owner at which point were out what ever cost we paid for it because it has no warranty. If we bite the bullet on that one new component that we can agree to live with until it's paid off or forever it would seem to be a safer way to go.

I can think of several components that I could live with for many years or forever knowing it doesn't get much better then this without doubling or tripling the cost I paid originally. And if that component required a loan to originally obtain to begin with it would be pretty easy, at least for me to live with that level of component happily ever after.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

You can justify anything you want. Just remember as long as you are making payments than somebody else really owns it. Knock yourself out.


Quote:
I wonder how may people who read this beloved magazine can actually afford even a small fraction of the stuff reviewed or listed in the "Recommended Components List" without resorting to a financing option of some sort.

Most people that read the magazine don't really buy that equipment. They buy what they can afford. I wonder how many people that did buy that equipment with say, a credit card, ended up defaulting. Or even paying a lot more than they should of paid as a result of financing. Financing is business. There are two sales going on here. The sale of tangible personal property, which you want, and the sale of a service, which you don't want. The seller doesn't care. He gets his money up front. Now you belong to the lender. They own your equipment. They have the title to your car. The mortgage to your house. But like I mentioned before you have the freedom to do business with the lender. Knock yourself out. BTW, if you have $300 each month after normal operating expenses than you should probably be saving it rather than wasting it on a lender. However, take that $300 and save half of it. Finance your equipment but double up on the payments to screw the lender. If you can do that than you can afford the equipment. See what I mean?

Also, don't kid yourself that you will use this particular equipment for the rest of your life. That is rationalizing a mistake you have yet to make.

Anybody that tells you that, "yeah, sure going ahead and finance it" isn't really giving you advice. They are just enabling you to make what is probably going to be a big mistake since you had to ask the question in the first place. Remember, you're the one that asked the question. Since you asked, than you must have doubts. That is your common sense speaking.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Never.

High end audio, racing motorcycles, sports cars, hand-made watches and fountain pens, all are toys - fun frivolities.

If you can't pay cash you can't afford it. Period.

If you can't afford new, buy used. If it was drool-worthy last year it still is highly desirable.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

That's the ticket!

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

It is very simple

We finance cars and houses because they are necessary, the sensible people finance things they can afford, the dumb ones finance things they cant afford but the financial industry has convinced them its OK. This gets everyone into trouble.

You should never finance a luxury item, the spare money that is spare this month might not be spare next month when you are laid off or your furnace packs up.

Prudent financial planning is the bedrock of a strong economy, im all for luxury items and have several myself they all share in the fact they were bought as cash purchases normally with work bonuses or overtime payments saved up.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

I buy toys with cash only, but that's just me. Let me ask you this, do you think it makes sense for me to borrow money to bet at the track? After all, if I pick a winner, the more I bet on him the more I'll make. Right? Why limit myself to money I can easily affort to lose?

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:
Don't listen to this guy. He is part of the problem.

What do you want me to do, Lamont? Tell someone I don't think they should be buying something because I disapprove of their buying habits? If someone asks whether financing is available, you want me to lie if I don't think they're driving a nice enough car?

The first time I ever saw an American Express Platinum the people who rolled out of the junker car looked like they couldn't afford a hamburger. They bought $5k worth of gear and the charge went through in about five seconds - no questions asked. That was back when Reagan was in charge.

This is Texas, lots of people here don't list any "personal income" or a job but they have it coming in as fast as they need it and them some.

Get off your f'ing high horse. I'm not going to debate it with you, but the fratboys you voted for are the problem here. For eight years we were told we didn't need to pay for anything, just charge it and let Daddy find a friend to pick up the tab.

How's that Arbusto, USA thing workin' for ya?

bertdw
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Lamont, I "borrowed" my own money that I had already set aside. I would have thought that you'd appreciate that I didn't put your tax dollars at risk.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

That's cool. I'm coming to Philadelphia to conduct some audits next month. Going to stay when done and meet up with Mrs. Sanford and do some sight seeing for about 5 days. Where do you go for good green chili?....

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

You're giving the guy advice from a sales person perspective. Your probably helped him but not in the way you may think. You would clean out a little old lady's savings if it meant a sale. And politics has nothing to do with that. Only greed. Its been around a lot longer than Democrats. So, yeah the problem is giving credit to people who can't pay. Like the guy with zero income. Just be glad you got security. Radio Shack is always hiring.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

You are an idiot. I didn't reach into his pocket and I didn't make him fill out an application for credit. I certainly didn't clean out any old lady's bank account, so get over yourself.

The finance company accepted the loan - during the Reagan administration! What do you want me to do, Lamont? Tell someone they can't have something they are qualified to own? You are a complete jerk with this. What if it was a gun? Should I become a gun salesperson just so I can stop people from owning a dozen guns or two dozen guns just because I think that's absurd? Should I sell gas guzzellers just so I can deny people credit and stop them from driving something that gets 10MPG? Unike you, Lamont, I don't make these moral judgements about how people should be or do or think. Only socialists like you want that authority over other people.

I deal with the equipment, the finance company deals with the loans. I don't have anything to do with the finance company's decisions and it would certainly be ridiculous of me to start deciding who got an application and who didn't. You don't like salespeople, shove it up your butt. That's the free market your side always preaches about and that's how that market works. Make your decsions which side your on and then go resisde there but stop straddling the fence between the two thinking you can always, always bitch about what someone else is doing.

Maybe someone has more money than you, Lamont, and they don't care to live like you do. That doesn't make them greedy. Maybe they have that royalty check coming in and they know what they can afford. Maybe they have money that you don't and they enjoy spending it.

That's trickle down economics. King Ronny preached that and his followers have swallowed Rushbo's call to all the rich people to get richer and screw the poor schlub who can't work over the next guy or screw the environment or work the system so they can get richer than they already are.

Who made you the person in charge to start telling them and me how we should run our life?

And politics has everything to do with the shape this country is in now and the "have more" financial sector was, if you recall, Bush's "base". They got richer while the rest of us got less under the non-watchful eye of a Bush "I knooow noooothink" regulator. So stop preaching to the rest of us about how we are greedy when you watched it happen and voted for the SOB's a second time.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


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You are an idiot.

That is a violation of the G&R code of conduct. Stephen please reprimand this member. Thank you.

dumbo
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Well I appreciate everyone's input on this topic and it seems the general consensus is that most haven't or wouldn't consider financing the purchase of an audio component. Thus far I have always purchased my equipment with cash and will most likely continue doing so in the future but it's still interesting to hear what others are doing to acquire their audio.

All in all, I still don't see this being any worse then the person who buys a high dollar item with a credit card and happily pays 18% or more in interest on that purchase for the next several months or sometimes years until it's paid off.

The way I see it is that you certainly can't take your money with you to the grave and were all only on this earth for a very short time. So what's the big deal with the person who would rather not waste time acquiring that dream component that will bring them joy as long as it falls within their expendable income range?

The fact of the matter is, anyone of us can walk out the door tomorrow and get hit by a bus or struck by a falling tree limb and never get the chance to enjoy that dream component we decided to wait a few years to purchase. Meanwhile, the guy who was labeled as being irresponsible for taking out a small loan was kicking back enjoying his financed purchase for the days, or if lucky, years leading up to his unplanned demise.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:
You would clean out a little old lady's savings if it meant a sale.


Quote:
That is a violation of the G&R code of conduct. Stephen please reprimand this member. Thank you.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:
All in all, I still don't see this being any worse then the person who buys a high dollar item with a credit card and happily pays 18% or more in interest on that purchase for the next several months or sometimes years until it's paid off.

Your money is your's to do with as you please. You might want to go to an amortization schedule on line, however, and determine just what that dream system would end up costing you over the life of the loan. Most $150k home loans are paid off over fifteen years and sometimes as much as thirty. That almost doubles your overall cost of the purchase. Electronics purchases are not financed over those long terms, you'd be on something like a five year schedule at best. Consider what your actual payments would be each month for such a purchase. That alone normally keeps the average Joe from even thinking about such expenditures and restricts them to buying something more reasonable on short term credit.

Let's assume though you could get a finance company to do a long term loan or you used a credit card on some audio system. Even though I use fifty year old amplifiers, I can't see myself paying for a hifi that became obsolete twenty years before I got it paid off. Just think if you had pursued this idea and purchased a high end El-Casette, 27" console TV and a BetaMax with your borrowed money and you still, today, had five years to pay on them.

I sold several of the original Kloss Nova Beam TV's with financing. But at $7k per TV in 1976 they were going in the house with the original Picasso's and the five car garage. It's unlikely that buyer didn't pay the loan off with the next stock trade or book deal.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=amortization%20calculator&type=

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

I can only say it is a terrible idea from start to finish, MAYBE if the financing is over a limited time (2-3 years) and for zero interest. But the numbers you throw out...I can't see it ever working out well. For instance, I just sprung for a $3k plasma TV that came with 36 months of zero interest financing. I simply set up automatic payments from my bank to pay it off in 35 months. Of course, I probably could have paid for it in cash too, but it would have taken a bite out of liquid capital as it were, and essentially Best Buy is floating us the dough. So it's financing yes, but relatively small and basically near zero risk.

But even if I COULD get a deal on something really big like some $35k speakers I'd never do it. WAY too much risk! If, and only if, you can pay it off at any time would it be something to even think about. The vast majority of the American public, who suddenly seem concerned about Gov. debt, have a large and unsustainable household debt themselves! I believe the official stat. is 140% of disposable income. The average family with credit card debt today spends about 20% of their income each month for interest related to that debt.

This is obviously the other half of the whole financial crisis. I personally know a number of families (some are relatives unfortunately) that have taken out home equity loans in the last decade to finance stuff just like this- usually boats, but also electronics, cars and other stuff. It didn't turn out so well in case you missed the last two years.

Bottom line for me (and my wife): excepting a car, which is a necessity, or a house, which we made sure was within our means, we won't finance a consumable product if we can't pay it off at any time if we had too.

Now companies, and governments, need debt sometimes, often maybe. But of course there is a limit, which was reached quite a while back. Too bad cutting budgets is the ULTIMATE "not in my back yard" issue!

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

"The way I see it is that you certainly can't take your money with you to the grave and were all only on this earth for a very short time. So what's the big deal with the person who would rather not waste time acquiring that dream component that will bring them joy as long as it falls within their expendable income range? "

The "problem" is, you probably WILL live a long time. And if you have no money towards the end, your kids, or the tax payers at large will be paying for your retirement, which was blown on your hi-fi (which you could hear by then anyway!).

Welshsox
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Its obvious from the thread, the only people promoting credit are the ones who benefit either sales guys or manufacturers. All the sensible people here ( even Lamont !! ) are promoting cash purchases or at worst an interest free purchase which does keep your money liquid at no cost.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

When you start to think of the populus that COULD afford to by decent audio with cash you have nearly 300,000 teachers being layed off, equivalent to a city the size of Phoenix or Denver losing their entire population's income.

The majority of them will be younger so the pospect of a real estate meltdown slightly less likely, but I do know a number of younger teachers under 3 years who bought their first house at a level of over $250,000. My first house was $11,400 and no matter how you adjust for inflation, that is way under $250K. Many in this generation do not want to wait for them have the best. Banks who should have said no, said yes and this is where we are.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:

Banks who should have said no, said yes and this is where we are.

Something that we should be storming the "Bastille" over.

The greatest act of bipartisan stupidity in my lifetime.

Left wing nuts say it was predatory lending.

Right wing nuts say it was predatory borrowing, aided and abetted by a liberal or two in congress overpowering the conservative majority...laughable.

Others point to Moodys rating the crap loans AAA in order to camoflauge it. The higher Moodys rated the toxics, the more they made by selling their ratings.

Yet others point to banks buying into this load of "Dutch Tulips."

Then we learn that our own investment firms were trying to sell this stuff as a 'sound investment' while converting the money they made into shorts they knew would weaken the very investments they sold to their beloved customers.

Almost guillotine worthy....but then there'd be nobody left, I guess!

Bottom line: Anyone who takes a partisan stand on this debacle is a world class idiologue dumb ass.

Keep that in mind in November!

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:

Quote:
You are an idiot.

That is a violation of the G&R code of conduct. Stephen please reprimand this member. Thank you.

Lamont, So that's why you wouldn't call me a dumbass on the other thread.

I am very disappointed. Throw out that G&R immediately !

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


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Its obvious from the thread, the only people promoting credit are the ones who benefit either sales guys or manufacturers.

If by "salesguys" you are referring to me, I am not advocating anything. I'm merely stating my experiences.

One more time for the slow learners out there, "salesguys" do not influence the decisions of the finance companies. They do nothing more than take information from a customer and relay that information to the finance companies.

It's incredibly arrogant of anyone to decide who should be spending how much and for what. That's the basic argument we arrive at with each "tweak" thread. If the person has the means to afford a higher than what you guys can afford component, you have no moral standing to suggest they are being predatory or in anyway harming anyone else. Certainly, if you think the guy buying the system twenty five years ago is at the heart of today's problems, you are delusional.

If you want to bitch about something, write a letter to the finance companies. Not that Household Finance had anything to do with the housing meltdown or the $700 billion handout made by the Bushies with no strings attached. But go ahead, bitch at someone who makes the loan decisions and not the people selling the product.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


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For instance, I just sprung for a $3k plasma TV that came with 36 months of zero interest financing. I simply set up automatic payments from my bank to pay it off in 35 months. Of course, I probably could have paid for it in cash too, but it would have taken a bite out of liquid capital as it were, and essentially Best Buy is floating us the dough. So it's financing yes, but relatively small and basically near zero risk.

Read the small print. The most common mistake people make with this sort of financing is allowing a missed or late payment or to have the payments extend beyond the agreed upon terms of "0% financing".

A few lenders will have terms which state you have until "X" date to make your payments at 0%, Mitsubishi - the guys with the big tanker style boats and even bigger bank accounts - have such terms. If you don't pay a cent to the account until the end of the 0% terms, you have no accrued interest. That's how it should work.

Most other lenders get you in the small print and people who don't pay off the loan by the date the 0% ends will find they suddenly have up to three years worth of back interest added to their balance.

I was always amazed at the number of people who wouldn't even bother to read the contracts they were signing. I encouraged people to take the time to go over the contract and I would answer any questions they posed. Probably 90% of the buyers simply put their names on the line without so much as a glance at the actual terms. This happened even when the loan was upwards of $30k. Even today, when I am asking people for keys to their house and access to their alarm codes, hardly anyone reads the contract before signing and giving me way more information than you should give to a stranger.

If the salesperson at Best Buy didn't go over the terms of the contract with you and you didn't read the contract before you singed your name, you might want to go back and do some catching up.

Otherwise, yes, it's generaly a good deal to let someone else's money loose the interest.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

It seems to me that durning the Bush tenure that Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were the head of the Senate Banking Committee and could have changed policy anytime they felt the NEED to do so. Why is it always Bush? There is so much blame to go around that no one party deserves to take the hit.

I remember during the cazmpaign when Frank and Dodd came forward with a press conference proudly saying that a "compromise had been reached" on the Bail-Out, when clearly that was far from the truth.

The real cusprit is the financial markets and they failed to follow decades of financial experience and many who should be in jail are not. They were all smart enough to find a "work-around" with their new "investment strategies" that were ill conceived.

I really don't blame anyone but Wallstreet for this mess. Each person will have to choose who thay want to blame. The problem is that blame will not fix the problem.

Welshsox
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Nobody is telling anyone with the money how to spend it.

What we are saying is that if you dont have the cake and are buying hifi on credit then you cannot afford it. This applies if your a student buying a $500 system or a doctor buying a $75,000 system, its not about what you are buying its about how you are buying it.

To say any sales person in any environment should not care where a customer gets his/her money or finance just indicates they are part of the problem.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha


Quote:
Why is it always Bush?

Why isn't it always "Bush" that's the answer to any question about the shape we are now in?

The man did more harm in his time in office than any other president in our history. He made Hoover look responsible! How many times during Bush did the National Debt Limit need to be raised? Do you remember that he had higher total deficits after his first four years than all the other 42 that came before him? And that was just after the first four years!

Everything was put on a fratboy credit card and we never had to pay for anything. Tax cuts were everywhere except where they did some good. The "have mores" got more and the rest of us got nothing but the shaft.

Did your actual taxes and total fees paid go down under Bush? Did your income go up? Did the services you received increase? How much did government grow under Bush? And what did you get for it?

How's your net worth today? Remember when the stock market was at 13,000? How about when it was at 7,000? Both of them occurred during Bush and you can guess who lost money on the bad deals - not Bush's friends that's for sure!

Remember Enron? Bush spent twenty minutes listening to a synopsis of a day's worth of town hall meetings with financially and morally broken citizens and that was sufficient for him to get a feel for the public sentiment. Yeah, sure! And nothing changed afterward, did it? We still got to $4+ gasoline.

What was the net job creation for G. W. Bush over his eight years in office? Clinton created 22 million during his eight years while pulling us out of another Bush recession. Any idea how many Bush is credited with? You're worried about the teachers, how many teachers lost their jobs during the Bush years? How many will continue to loose their jobs thanks to his policies? During Clinton we found the money for 150,000 new police and fire fighters. Funded them mind you! They were cut during Bush.

Remember John Warner asking, "Are we safer now?" The answer was, "I don't know, sir."

"Deficits don't matter." Remember that one? Obviously they do matter and now we are in the Norquist mode of finding the economy in the bath tub more than half drowned. If we were still running the balanced budgets that were left to Bush, where would we be right now? Not where we are right now that's for sure. We wouldn't have had to borrow the money to bail out those who took us to the cleaners. Not much of a bright spot but it's the truth.

Remember when George promised us we would go to Mars?

Remember when George told us we would have a balanced budget by 2009?

Same thing!

The man had no less than $1/2 trillion deficits every year in office and most of it, like the two wars he started, were completely off the books by their accounting schemes. He presided over a Republican Congress that ran up staggering deficits each year and passed unfunded mandates such as No Child Left Behind that screwed every state while benefiting Bush's brother Neal. And don't forget the infamous Medicare Part D that gave away $140 billion dollars to the insurance and pharmacuetical industries. Just gave it away! No accounting for any part of it in any way and the guy who threatened to blow the whistle got threatened with jail. It was just the tax payer's money (as much as $7 trillion over the next decade and still the seniors got the shaft) handed to big political contributors. And Tom Delay held the vote open on the floor while he illegally twisted arms by threatening to cut off campaign financing. No price bargaining for drugs in order to help the drug industry survive what they would have to go through under this legislation, then Bush signed it with a smile on his face and a campaign slogan for the senior vote.

How about the $44 billion given to the energy industry by the Republicans? Not a cent of that was ever vetoed by Bush. Not a cent of it was ever funded by the Republicans. And Bush signed the bill. How many vetoes did Bush use in eight years? How many for unfunded spending bills put forward while the Republicans controlled both houses?

Get off your partisan bandwagon and open your eyes to what this guy did! How much regulation that took place under Clinton was discontinued under Bush? Would the Gulf be flooded with millions of gallons of oil right now if Bush had kept the same regulations in place when Clinton left office? Would thousands of workers be facing life altering changes right now if Bush had not changed the policies and regulations? It was during the Bush administration that the regulators were literally sleeping with the industry. How many violations of Federal Statutes were never filed or pursued by Bush era "regulators"? How many jobs were filled by people on the take from the lobbyists?

Abramoff, how's that for a name from the past?

How many millions of acres of public land were handed over to the private sector for profiteering during Bush's eight years? How many people can't drink the water that comes out of their tap now that we've endured eight years of looking away rather than doing something? How many people died or are going to die due to Bush era negligence? How many first responders in NYC are sick due to the Bush administration lies? We're at five thousand dead American military - most of whom could not be honored with a photograph - in Bush's unfunded wars and what do we have to show for it? More than a trillion dollars borrowed and several trillion paid to those who want to kill us. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of refugees, orphans and dead in the Middle East due to his blunders.

And did anyone save Terry Schiavo after all?

No one is claiming the Democrats are not responsible for some of this but Bush and his minions are the worst thing that ever happened to this country and will be for generations to come as we dig ourself out of the mess he left.


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I really don't blame anyone but Wallstreet for this mess.

Cripes! You just blamed Dodd and Frank! Don't you listen to yourself?

Believe facts not Fox.

Jan Vigne
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To say any sales person in any environment should not care where a customer gets his/her money or finance just indicates they are part of the problem.

This from the fool who thinks every audio manufacturer and retailer is out to get him. Don't start, Alan, you have some heavy baggage hanging over your head in this department.

rvance
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Hi db, I "took advantage" of a 0% loan for 24 months from Amazon to buy a Samsung LED recently. I waited until a desirable model had run its retail course and tried to pick it up at the bottom price. I could have taken $$ out of checking or savings, but the terms were pretty straightforward.

Credit disclosure laws require the lender state that minimum payments must be made (approx. purchase total divided by months financed) or a pre-determined interest rate computed over the life of the loan will come due on any remaining balance at the end of the finance period. If you are half-assed creditworthy at all you won't be accidently missing payments or run late. That's why the auto payment plan you mentioned is the way to go.

You know you are handling your credit cards well when the financier gets sick of your responsible payments and zero balances and they change the terms of the card by trying to add minimum fees and canceling cash-back incentives, etc.

I call them when this happens and in almost every instance they have restored the previous terms or I stop using them altogether. There's a fine balance of maintaining a high credit to debt ratio without the need to cancel cards or getting dinged for being too stingy.

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Im also a person who has only a mortgage and zero debt, not a penny except the mortgage. I have a healthy 401 K, healthy pension and a sound financial plan that means when i retire i will actually be richer than working.

If the price for this sound financial position is that i live the next 10 years with a $15,000 system that i bought prudently and not a $50,000 system that is not significantly better im more than happy to accept that type of baggage. Like ive always stated, i have nice things that im comfortable with i have no problem stating that things are over priced in the hifi world simply because they are !!

I just shopped for a new car and in these times I got a great deal on a great car, i spent almost $40,000 but i believe i received good value. Again its about value not absolute cost, there is just no way that we ever agree that a $20,000 speaker cable is good value.

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I don't remember Dodd or Franks or any Democrat playing "chicken little" and saying the sky was falling? If the Dems are so smart why didn't they warn us?

The facts...oh, I'm not going to bother. It is so pointless.

Be happy with the socialism you have just elected. Sometimes you must be careful what you wish for. I am sure that as your president makes his way to his "56th and 57th state" and he stated he intends to go to all 60 of them (his words)...he will make this very clear to us.

Of course the BP spill is Bush's fault as well. As well as the head of Government Motors exciting us with the fact that they have paid off their bail-out loans early. We should overlook the fact that was with more borrowed money. At least someone made real money making up all those banners.

Jan Vigne
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It's also not about the salespeople.

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Quote:
I don't remember Dodd or Franks or any Democrat playing "chicken little" and saying the sky was falling? If the Dems are so smart why didn't they warn us?

The facts...oh, I'm not going to bother. It is so pointless.

Be happy with the socialism you have just elected. Sometimes you must be careful what you wish for. I am sure that as your president makes his way to his "56th and 57th state" and he stated he intends to go to all 60 of them (his words)...he will make this very clear to us.

Of course the BP spill is Bush's fault as well. As well as the head of Government Motors exciting us with the fact that they have paid off their bail-out loans early. We should overlook the fact that was with more borrowed money. At least someone made real money making up all those banners.

Jim, half your brain stopped working. Please reboot.

The Frank/Dodd administration must have been very powerful to have rendered the Republican majority and Bush/Cheney administration powerless and mute.

By blaming the Dems you are only halfway home.

Are you a birther?

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I don't remember Dodd or Franks or any Democrat playing "chicken little" and saying the sky was falling?

And I'm sure you're someone who has paid a lot of attention to what Dodd and Frank have had to say over the years. I hear this BS all the time from conservatives, "I haven't heard so and so say anything about ... "

Like, if you didn't hear it, if Fox News didn't report it, it didn't happen at all.

Well, hell no! If your only source of "news" is Fox and talk radio, where do you expect to hear Democrats saying things like, "The sky is falling because of what banks and corporations are doing to ... "?

Tell me, Jim, what's the most liberal source of information you listen to or read on a daily schedule? Where do you get your progressive side of the news? I'd really like to know. Surely you don't just listen to the conservative side of the dial, do you? Really!!! you only listen to who and what promotes the way you already have your mind made up?! C'mon, Jim, tell me I'm wrong about this. What's the progressive radio station call letters in your area? Who's your favorite liberal talk show host? You can tell me, nobody else needs to know.


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If the Dems are so smart why didn't they warn us?

There were more than a few on both sides of the aisle who tried to warn us. Like most whistle blowers, they were either shut down, threatened or, like Ron Paul, they were laughed at by the mainstream corporate shills such as Rushbo and Hannity or called names by people like Savage.

Ya know, the other day I heard Limbaugh complaining that the idle rich in this country have to pay excessive taxes just to support the over priced pensions of those lay about police and fire fighters.

Where do you get your information?!


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The facts...oh, I'm not going to bother.

Sad - and funny in a way - that I hear that exact same thing from all the conservatives I meet. Facts? Why bother with facts when innuendo and personality politics plays so much better? Why bother with facts when fabrications are better stories to repeat? You do know Limbaugh is a liar, don't you? And Beck is just nuts! Nothing he tells you is true.


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Be happy with the socialism you have just elected.

OK, Jim, until now I didn't think you were a complete goof. Now, you've removed all doubt.

Where did you say you get your hard facts?


Quote:
As well as the head of Government Motors exciting us with the fact that they have paid off their bail-out loans early. We should overlook the fact that was with more borrowed money. At least someone made real money making up all those banners.

Oh! I suppose that's Obama's fault? You don't remember Bush giving the auto industries money? You don't remember the nearly three page memo Paulson drafted telling Congress to fork over nearly a trillion dollars without oversight and without questions or else? No, of course you don't.

Where do you get your information?

Really, Jim, if you have no more respect for facts than you've shown here, why do you bother?

Tell you what, why don't you try to actually refute anything I've said about Bush? That would prove enlightening.

Give me some facts, Jim, not Fox News talking points or Tea Party/Sarah Palin BS, give me some facts about why George W. Bush should not be blamed for those things I mentioned. Tell me why Bush left with a 27% approval rating/87% wrong track rating and why no Republican - not even McCain (who has turned into a incredible joke of late) - wanted him campaigning for them then or now. Tell me why the Republicans now say, "We lost our way back then." What did they loose if they didn't have Bush leading them off a cliff?

You wanted to know why Bush got blamed. I told you why. You don't want to believe facts, you want to blame Obama because he hasn't cleaned up Bush's mess already. Jim, you're smarter than that.

Right? I mean, you're not so dumb as to only listen to and believe Fox and their friends, are you?

Shit! Jim, even Pat Buchanan blames Bush for that stuff!

Tell me what Bush did that has proven to be good for this country.

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Tell me what Bush did that has proven to be good for this country.

He made you an angry person. I take great pleasure in that and I blame Bush completely.


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Oh! I suppose that's Obama's fault?

Yes, completely his fault. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I see, you have no problem with lies.

You're right about one thing, Lamont, I am very pissed about what Bush did to, and not for, this country.

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The facts...oh, I'm not going to bother. It is so pointless.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-12-2010/back-in-black---glenn-beck-s-nazi-tourette-s

Priceless.

Lamont Sanford
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So, there is something wrong with Obama. I knew it. I wasn't lying. Just "misinformed".

Jan Vigne
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

You still are.

dumbo
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Aw, supporting a cult of personality is so sexy...

Buddha
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

Wow, lots of hate for financing.

No way liberals should be opposed! Hell, nor modern conservatives.

No financing = no Iraq or Afghanistan adventures!

Maybe we're differing on amounts, or timing, or something.

I look at this like someone asking about drinking. In moderation, who cares. To excess, then it may be a problem.

If somebody factors in 300 bucks a month as play money and wants to finance a 3500 dollar toy, or whatever, why all the fuss?

Elk
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Considered Financing A High End Audio Purcha

You got me.

I admit to financing almost all of my purchases.

I use a credit card for almost everything. I borrow their money for about a month at 0% and then pay the bill.

Thousands of dollars a year financed for everything from 2.5 gallon Ducati Superbike fill-up to <gasp> toys.

Buddha
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Quote:
You got me.

I admit to financing almost all of my purchases.

I use a credit card for almost everything. I borrow their money for about a month at 0% and then pay the bill.

Thousands of dollars a year financed for everything from 2.5 gallon Ducati Superbike fill-up to <gasp> toys.

Same here.

Is 5-25 day interest free financing OK with everybody?

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