The odds are with you that some hard disc source (iPod or whatever) is a central part of the future, and if Jobs' recent statements about DRM and his new deal with EMI are any indication, widespread quality improvements in downloaded material may be here pretty soon. So, what is it that makes you want a new CD player? Are you just old fashioned like me?

Hi guys!

I'm a bit dystopian in my outlook, so I will agree, but with a twist.

I think as soon as enough people have their iPods croak at a bad time or their hard drive go south during a party, there will be a return to hard copies of music, whatever the format of the future may be.

Yes, we may download it, but then we will store it on some piece of hardware that we own, in order to keep it safe.

Like a Flash Drive, it will have no moving parts and will require no power of its own.

But, even that will probably become dated, because for a nominal monthly fee, you will have access to streaming music and you won't have to worry about your own hardware crashing because none of "your" music will be on your iPod or on your computer - you will just be a licensee, paying for access.

I'm thinking both styles of music "ownership" will exist until us old timers die off and streaming style music becomes ubiquitous.

At that point, your devices will be monitored as you listen on the subway or at home, and if you find a way to access music without the proper license fee, the Microsoft Thought Police (the official police of our country, after the rights to policing are auctioned to the highest bidder) will briefly stop hunting down non-conformists long enough to come by your house and reprogram your brain chip that, by law, according to the patriot Act of 2013, enacted by President Jeb Bush, has been placed in your brain to make sure you behave in ways acceptable to the Neocon Hearts and Minds Act of 2011.

So, stock up and CD's, stand alone CD players, and NOS parts - because when independently owned CD's are outlawed, only outlaws will have CD's.

They can have my CD's (and LP's too) when they claw them out of my cold dead hands.

Not an IPod, but maybe another, similar portable music player from someone other than Apple (and hopefully with a digital output)

I will never buy and download music that is DRM protected (too many problems) or not in a lossless format.
I-Pod is closed source - you must run ITunes with it, you have problems if you get a new PC, will not play nice with non-Apple devices, etc.

That said, I love that I ripped my 500+ CDs to my hard drive, put my media in a closet, can use my PC as a music server to my living room system, can play tracks via an upgraded sound card to my stereo, can put the music on my GigaBeat portable and can back up my music collection to an external hard drive I keep safely at my office.

I like the convenience and have not noticed and degradation in sound quality.

The future of high end audio will always be the over $1K CD player, and class A amplification and speaker systems. Less will always be more.

I love my IPod and putting music into my computer HD, but to think that getting it back out will be as clean as into a Ayre C5, Rega Saturn, Quad CDP, DCS, or a Marantz 15 is foolish. Close...maybe, but not cigar, no Clinton pun intended.

In your computer you still need a great soundcard/firewire out into a great outboard DAC. Maybe the Benchmark USB DAC is it. I'll wait for JA to tell me this is the first acceptable, low jitter USB device. The Slim Devices Transporter fills this requirement from all I've heard and read. At $2K it should. You still need your class A amp and speakers.

The Ipod still requires wav files or equal and some sort of external headphone amp and some $400 cans to approach Class A or B. It is do able. Now a hi-rez, 96 khz/DSD player would be sweet. I can promise you it will not come from clueless Sony. They will be too busy working on the PS4 that will miss the next Christmas selling season.

MSB mods iPods with digital outputs. http://www.msbtech.com/products/iLink.php

Speaking of modded iPods, has anyone here tried the Red Wine Audio iMod? What other iPod modifications are out there?

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MSB mods iPods with digital outputs. http://www.msbtech.com/products/iLink.php

From the MSB Tech web site:

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MSB can upgrade iPods sent to them, or new units are available with the upgrade installed already.

iLink with RF link and iPod Upgrade - $1995
iLink with RF link and 80MB upgraded iPod Video - $2349. (white or black)
additional iPod upgrades - $199.

At those prices why not buy a Transporter and an external hard drive. Still less than the iLink with an 80GB iPod.

Here's a few of my misgives about a high end iPod.

First, iPod's cannot play FLAC files nor can they play Windows Media (wma) files. They can play wav and Apple lossless files. What this means is that the two most popular forms of downloadable lossless files (FLAC and WMA) are not supported by an iPod, therefore one would have to find a way to get either wav or lossless ACC files onto the modded iPod. And how does one usually do this? Why by ripping a CD into either a wav or ACC lossless file onto one's computer and then transferring the files onto the iPod.

With a streaming music player like the Slim Devices Transporter one can just download lossless files right onto one's computer and play them on any stereo that has a Transporter connected to it. Plus the Transporter comes with a built in high quality DAC, the iLink only has digital output meaning that an outboard DAC is required.

Just as digital cameras are rapidly changing the way people take, store, look at and share photos, streaming music players will change, albeit more slowly, the way people listen to, store and share music.

Streaming music players coupled with hard drive based music collections represent a paradigm shift (please see this Wikipedia link for more info on just what cconstitutes a "paradigm shift") in the way we will listen to and own recorded music.

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I love my IPod and putting music into my computer HD, but to think that getting it back out will be as clean as into a Ayre C5, Rega Saturn, Quad CDP, DCS, or a Marantz 15 is foolish.

The digital stream output from a HD is, inarguably, as clean as the digital output from any transport. The bit stream is identical.

Also, like with any transport, what you do with this datastream determines the ultimate sound quality.

Given the popularity of computer streamed music and of storing music files on computers high end audio will need to continue to incorporate such features. These capabilities will be critical to the future of high end as the music listening public ages. The average twenty something is very comfortable with music mass storage.

Your post, Erik, and Stephen's aroused my curiosity, so I followed the links and then returned to read Ralph's reaction. He and I are probably both willing to invest in system upgrades when they make sense to us, and we represent opposite ends of the spectrum regarding down loading music. I'm the traditionalist, he's the twenty-first century. We both have iPods (I think) and we both find those mods wanting.

The next $2,000 I have available for a system upgrade is already slated for my analog front end. That probably goes for the $2,000 after that one too. Part of being a happy cheapskate is spending your money where you think it can do you the most good. Can't imagine that level of investment in a piece of gear whose principal virtue is that it will to go to the beach and other such places.

The Redwine approach - shortened signal paths, improved components, at what seems like a sensible price - has more appeal, but it too makes portability more cumbersome by requiring something like the little Airhead or Bithead to provide volume control and amplification.

But, setting aside portability what do I think? Portability is what the iPod is all about. When it is reduced to digital storage, or digital storage plus an OK DAC, I'm inclined to forget the iPod altogether and go for those system elements elsewhere.

Looks, to me, like a good time to wait and see what tomorrow brings whether you're set in your ways or a really hip sort of guy.

The strange thing about new technology is that although countless pieces of new technology are released each year only a very small number of them actually have any lasting impact.

For example, a year or two ago Microsoft introduced those web enabled wristwatches and they very quickly bit the dust. On the other side of the coin, when the CD burner was introduced for a PC it rather quickly became a standard feature for almost every new PC plus the CD burner effectively killed the cassette recorder.

Another example is how the iPod has become the portable music player of choice and has effectively killed off both portable cassette and CD players.

Hard disk based music systems, with or without streaming music players, will most likely replace systems that use individual recordings, i.e. CDs and LPs, regardless of how the music gets onto the hard disk. And once these hard disk based systems become widespread than the entire recorded music distribution system will change to follow suit. Whether one downloads the music onto the hard disk or buys the recording on some kind of flash memory based device really doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not this technology takes hold and I really believe that it will take hold and in a very big way.

I also agree that basing a high end music playback system around an iPod is pretty much a fools game since within the iPod's present format it is just too difficult and very cumbersome.

As much I love the sound of analog there is just no denying that digital is far superior as an audio storage medium and offers new and very exciting ways to store and distribute recorded music.

Hopefully, Slim Devices and some of the other streaming music player manufacturers will be on hand at the upcoming Home Entertainment show so that those in attendance can get a change to see and hear first hand how these systems can perform and compete with more traditional forms of recorded music playback.

I sure can't argue with upgrading an analog front end.

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The Redwine approach . . . but it too makes portability more cumbersome by requiring something like the little Airhead or Bithead to provide volume control and amplification.

True. However, a portable amp makes a large improvement to an unmodded iPod also. There is always something to make everything better. <sigh>

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When it is reduced to digital storage, or digital storage plus an OK DAC, I'm inclined to forget the iPod altogether and go for those system elements elsewhere.

I fully agree.

Jazzfan,

Well and cogently stated. Excellent points.

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Hard disk based music systems, with or without streaming music players, will most likely replace systems that use individual recordings, i.e. CDs and LPs, regardless of how the music gets onto the hard disk.

As much as this doesn't appeal to me (as I enjoy the physicality of LP's and CD's, as well as liner notes!), I believe you are correct. You and I know how convenient it is to have one's music on a HD. Once those of us that like to have things to hold in our hands die off (and bandwidth increases) CD's will die too. Music will be downloaded; either off a website or at kiosks into a flash drive, or otherwise.

Jazzfan,

I'm with you...a $2k IPod is a little much. Transporter here I would come.

I would love to hear if someone has a MS Zune player and would tell us how they like it?

I would agree that a music server can be convenient and of equal quality, but If I have a music server (computer) at say $1K I now need a DAC of at least another $1K. My only point is that the competition of $2K CD/SACD playback is keen at this price point. Your servers would win in the area of eventual convenience. And, we need to go park our fans somewhere out of ear shot.

I'm also with Clay, as I sit here typing and listening to Solti/Chicago Symphony/London CS 7049/Beethoven Eroica the old fashioned way...dropping the needle in the groove. Man, how cool is that!

Clay, I agree with you and Jazzfan that $2K for an

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I would agree that a music server can be convenient and of equal quality, but If I have a music server (computer) at say $1K I now need a DAC of at least another $1K. My only point is that the competition of $2K CD/SACD playback is keen at this price point.

Good point.

I think that most advocates of a server based system assume that one already owns a computer, and very likely also a WiFi setup. Therefore, to their way of thinking, there is no new purchase involved.

Thus the average user is already ready to go; there is nothing more to buy and they can listen to their server stored music on computer speakers and/or with inexpensive headphones - later adding a inexpensive Squeezebox or the equivalent for remote locations.

For the high end crowd the only additional purchase over the average person is a DAC - which they often already have.

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For the high end crowd the only additional purchase over the average person is a DAC - which they often already have.

Elk,

I thing you underestimate the audiophiles ability to find all kinds of ways to tweak a system and thus spend money. For example, the use of special audiophile grade sheetrock on the walls between the router and the streaming music player. Ordinary sheetrock has been shown (see soon to be published white paper) to adversely effect the WiFi signal and add all kinds of distortion.

In addition, for those on a budget an air purification system is also a worthwhile investment is pure clean air has been shown (again, see soon to be published white paper) to allow for better transmission of the WiFi waves. For those more well heeled audiophiles for whom nothing but the best will do, there is a newly designed Himalayan air system consisting of five 250 gallon tanks of pure liquid Himalayan mountain air which is used to completely replace all the air in one's listening environment. With this system and the use of audiophile grade sheetrock, not only is the transmission of the WiFi waves guaranteed to be as pure as possible but the sound waves will also benefit by not having to travel through all the usual dust particles and other impurities found in normal household air.

Poor DUP thinks the wire business is snake oil, man he ain't seen nothing yet.

No, I don't want just ONE choice when it comes to what kind of air...I wan't at least TWO. And you thought I was kidding, didn't you?

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...for those on a budget an air purification system is also a worthwhile investment is pure clean air has been shown (again, see soon to be published white paper) to allow for better transmission of the WiFi waves. <snip>

I imagine clean filtered air exhibits much less comb filtering, too.

And "white papers" stay WHITER if the air is cleaner, no dirt particles.

Some of the latest I-Pods have digital outputs on mini toslinks within the headphone out.

This is 24bit capable on the I-Macs and possibly on the Pods.
So Mac to Dac via optical is getting better.

Also I use a smidgin of Tunes 'Sound Enhance', its a spacialiser and brings out low level reverb and ambience
at the cost of a little focus.

Great for difficult and crushed cds.
Especially good for classical too tightly recorded but in a good acoustic.