You are here

Log in or register to post comments
michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
a listening challenge

I invite May & Geoff to a listening challenge http://www.stereophile.com/content/may-geoffs-web-pages

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
So May, let me guess...

If everything is a passive component then everything should be treated... or not? Now some new questions arise:
1. Where should I start applying the cream? Mirrors, windows, photo frames? Is there a definite order or anything will do?
2. Is the cream always beneficial? I mean, what happens if after treating the next object in the room I find the sound got worse? Use Windex?
3. Did you test the cream on different fabrics? My wife would hate to have cream stains on her precious velvet drapes.

Waiting for your answers,
Costin

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Stop guessing.

Hello Costin,

>>> “If everything is a passive component then everything should be treated... or not? Now some new questions arise:

1. Where should I start applying the cream? Mirrors, windows, photo frames? Is there a definite order or anything will do?
2. Is the cream always beneficial? I mean, what happens if after treating the next object in the room I find the sound got worse? Use Windex?
3. Did you test the cream on different fabrics? My wife would hate to have cream stains on her precious velvet drapes.” <<<

1) No definite order. Try a corner of a mirror, a corner of the glass window, a corner of the photo frame. Don’t forget, only a tiny amount of the Cream is needed on only a small area – not the whole surface area.
2) Yes, the Cream is always beneficial. That is the purpose of it’s design. However, why don’t you try it ‘once removed’ as it were, if you are worried in any way. Get some of those tiny white address labels, apply a small amount of the Cream to a label and attach the ‘treated’ label to the object. Listen for some time, get used to that sound, then remove the label. That should give you some idea as to the Cream’s effect. You can then decide if you wish to apply the Cream itself permanently.
3) Again, if you are worried, try a tiny amount of the Cream to a small area of the curtain fabric at the top of the curtain – where it connects to the rail (or whatever you have fitted to the window frame). Why not try one of our ‘free’ techniques. Using a safety pin, pin back ONE of the four corners of the curtain. Listen for some time to get used to the sound, then remove the safety pin and listen again.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 42 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Passive devices, a short list
michael green wrote:

May said

What then happens if people want to actually talk about ‘something affecting the actual audio signal traveling through the audio equipment’ ? Is that the ‘signal’ ?

mg

It's all the signal, everything affects everything else.

May, I'm not challenging your word passive, so don't pull me into a word debate please, this is a web your spinning that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with your needs for what ever reason.

again

Hi Stereophile

here's the link I said I would provide for those who wish to ask questions of TuneLand on TuneLand

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t256-tuneland-answers

michael green
MGA/Roomtune

Well, it's an interesting question with respect to what a passive device is and there have been many different interpretations of this over the years. For those uncertain as to what I mean, and my interpretation might vary with someone else's, here is a short list of what I call Passive Devices. To be completely Passive means to be independent of the power system, cables, interconnects, the electronic signal anywhere in the system, and independent of the acoustic signal out in the room. Now, there are some things that almost seem to be completely passive but actually aren't, things like the Mpingo Disc and Super Intelligent Chip, even the Shakti Stone and Green Pen. NOTE: The original Intelligent Chip almost qualifies as a passive device since it had the ability to affect the CD in a permanent way just by placing the chip on top of the CD player while a disc was played. Hel-loo! But truly passive devices are few and far between, things like Schumann Frequency Generator (yes, I realize there is a school of thought, including the manufacturer, that believe the Schumann device affects RFI/EMI). OK, what else? The Red X Pen, silver rainbow foil, and cream electret obviously. I know what you're thinking, it's really some kind of,resoannce control thing, right? You got your clock. no, not the Tice Clock, silly, the clever one. You got your quantum temple bell from yours truly, and the colored magnets on walls and furniture, another no brainer. Anyone not see the DIY potential there raise your hand? Even the mu metal and AB 5100S almost look like passive devices but they're not. Now the tiny little bowls are kind of interesting because they resonate at acoustic frequencies but also at microwave frequencies. So the jury is still out on the tiny little bowls, if you see what I mean. Cork, not passive. Copper streamers, ground loopy things, suspensions for cables, all not passive. According to my definition. Isoaltion platforms, not passive, they affect the signal. Now, copper foils (Flying Sauces for Windows, all windows in the house) - well, we haven't decided what the heck those are yet. Flying Saucers for unused wall outlets, most likely just what they appear to be, RF blockers. Removing plants from the room, removing all telephone books from the residence, you guessed it, passive. Morphic messages, passive. Pop quiz: is the Teleportation Tweak active or passive? Humorous anecdote: I had a question the other day on the Clever Little Watch I'm auctioning over on Audiogon, the question was, "Can you tell me how the watch works? Be careful, I'm a physics professor."

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 7 months ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
Fine May, I'll try them

But I still have one question: will these tweaks work even if I don't believe they can work? I mean, do I have to be a "believer" or is their efect independent of my opinion?

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Yes, Costin, try them

Hi Costin,
>>> “But I still have one question, will these tweaks work even if I don't believe they can work? I mean, do I have to be a "believer" or is their efect independent of my opinion?” <<<

No, you don’t have to believe they can work.

I suggest that you read Carol Clark’s article in Positive Feedback Online where she describes her husband David ‘hearing’ such a label she had written improve the sound. She had not told him what she had done !!!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue1/beltpen.htm

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
some questions

Hi May

You said earlier "Yes, the Cream is always beneficial". First I'm happy Costin is going to try this and hope it does good things, but what about the people who do try it and it doesn't do so well? Were they applying it incorrectly?

Also when we tried it, the amount was a big deal. How do you guage how much to use?

I'm wondering if people were using too much.

Lastly we also noticed that it had different results with different materials, how do you address this?

thanks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Some asnwers

>>> “You said earlier. Yes, the Cream is always beneficial". First I'm happy Costin is going to try this and hope it does good things, but what about the people who do try it and it doesn't do so well? Were they applying it incorrectly?
Also when we tried it, the amount was a big deal. How do you guage how much to use?
I'm wondering if people were using too much.
Lastly we also noticed that it had different results with different materials, how do you address this? “ <<<

I have no doubt that people have applied the Cream correctly, whatever the results they have achieved. People can’t apply too much, it is just that it is not necessary to apply a lot of Cream to a surface, a small amount to a small area should be sufficient to gain good results.

Applying the Cream to different materials and to different objects and to different surfaces may, indeed, give varying results but in my opinion and experience the varying results would be a different percentage of improvement – not a difference of ‘better or worse’.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
the results

I want to go back to the freezing for a recap.

We did the freezing as May and Geoff recommended and the result was loss of content. We did the cream as May suggest according to the last post and the result was a different sound, but I wouldn't say positive or negative but different. If this particular sound change is something someone wishes to have than positive of course, but we found times when the cream called attention to part of the music while at the same time took away from other parts.

We also tested other creams and solutions and came to the same conclusions. Almost anything applied to the surfaces of materials changed the sound. I might add that when comparing the sound change on components, there was a far bigger change by removing the lid of the component than there was treating the component with the cream or other treatments.

moving on to crystals

When we did our testing of crystals we noticed that the frequencies would gather (cluster) and as we moved them this attraction would move and change with the movement. We decided to use other materials the same way and see if the effects were the same, they were. Every material we moved around the room in the same places as the crystals had their own flavor that was added to the music. We then took several different types of cups and cans and began filling them with water. If you changed the amount of water the sound changed. Tested different liquids in the cans and the same thing.

At this point we went back to the crystals and compared them against different voiced wood, and the wood did far more than the crystals. We did a combo of crystals and wood and crystals mounted in the wood, everything we tried the sound changed. Our conclusions with this is pretty obvious, systems are tunable. Not only are systems tunable but so was each different recording and the setups needed to be differed slightly in some cases and hugely in others. In comparison to variable products designed to make these changes the fixed tweaks make it so the listener would be moving things around forever to reach a level of performance that was close. People say "who wants to fuss with tuning" well these fixed products and materials make that game many times more difficult. Think about it, a change was made. There's the proof of tunability. Do you want to spend the rest of your days jumping from one fix to the next, cause that's what thousands of the audiophiles do, or would it be easier to go tunable right from the start and simply make the changes if and when you want? Food for thought.

foil

We worked extensively with foils, many different kinds, all of which made a change in the sound. You can read about this on TuneLand in the archives. We found one thing about all of these foils, copper, aluminum, rainbow, different colors, neted, corrugated, brass, zinc, frozen heated and others. If you add a glue or double sided tape, polish the materials turn into dampeners and part of the signal will cluster or be omitted.

Do these types of things make a difference? Sure they do, but so do all materials. The important thing here for the listeners is to learn how materials work and how to use them in a system to make the desired changes.

here's something though to consider

As you do these things play a wide range of music, and after a while you will begin to notice that part of your collection did sound better to you, but if you pay attention part of your collection sounds worse. This hobby is full of wishful thinking, but until you get to the place where you understand that every piece of music has it's on signature vibratory code which makes the materials in your system and environment react differently at different times you are going to chase the tail and tales of products.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

toledo
toledo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: May 12 2014 - 1:50pm
Michael,

Michael,

"As you do these things play a wide range of music, and after a while you will begin to notice that part of your collection did sound better to you, but if you pay attention part of your collection sounds worse. This hobby is full of wishful thinking, but until you get to the place where you understand that every piece of music has it's on signature vibratory code which makes the materials in your system and environment react differently at different times you are going to chase the tail and tales of products."

I would like to add how I have read references to jazz systems or classical systems or rock systems over the years. I am sure many of us have.

"You can't play rock on that system, it is a jazz system" kinda thing.

I am sure you have seen your share of statements like that.

I wonder why?

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
patents

Hi Toledo

This hobby has the patent on two things, myth making and excuses. Instead of saying "my system can't play it" they turn this into a category "a jazz system". Sounds audiophile-ish this way and gives them the excuse they need. Another one is "my system is so revealing it won't play it". This gives them the excuse to put perfectly good music on the shelf.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
They only seem like excuses from your perspective

For others, they recognize the limits, along with the virtues and vices of the combination of their gear and rooms. Cadillacs and Corvettes are both cars that do the job of transporting people, but in different ways based on the preferences of their drivers. Which car gets the driver closer to their desired preferences? Which one should be tweaked and transformed to be more like the other? Are cars being built wrong because they can't be tuned to be more like each other? Is the industry destined to disappear because the public can't adjust their cars to perform equally well on the track as it does on the highway?

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
not my perspective

Hi Catch

It's not my perspective that counts, it's everyones along with their choices. Just as many companies build many different types of instruments they all have one thing in common. They play musical notes and can be tuned many different ways and taste to do so. Cars can and do as well, but I like staying with instruments as these are our industries closest relatives. As far as audio systems go, your choice may be to do nothing, my choice may be to do as much as I can, and everyone inbetween has theirs. Fact is your system even in your home setup in any of your houses rooms will and does sound different. If you choose this to be as far as you go, I don't see anyone worried by that. At the same time everyone has their ideas of the sound they want and all types of systems and levels to get there, tuning as the same with cars or instruments or audio systems being the most flexible. You don't want to, don't, that has absolutely no affect on the listener who does.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

toledo
toledo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: May 12 2014 - 1:50pm
Catch,

Catch,

The car analogy is an interesting perspective, however, when you purchase a car you know if you are getting a sports cars vs a sedan vs a luxury cruiser, etc.... and have made the choice up front as to what to expect.

The audio industry does not market at the sub category level like cars. It is only through extensive research or through the experiences of others or through a lot of expensive trial and error of component swaps, speakers swap, cabling, tweaks, etc... do you put together a system that meets your current goals and it usually is in the form of a music choice trade off depending on how many genres of music are involved.

Sometimes the music choices are forced upon you as you move up the upgrade ladder to gain better performance. As certain music sounds better, other music gets worse and the trade offs increase.

Yes, it is up people to decide if the trade offs are acceptable and know what they are getting into but I think you will find many an audiophile who feels a little duped and they would like to gain back some control over their system and music choices.

I do think the industry is in trouble. I don't know the demographics, but, I suspect the average audiophile is older, has had multiple systems and they are not being replaced by younger hobbyists that resemble their older counterparts. The 24/7 online younger crowd will not enjoy music the way we do and I do not see them going to the extremes we do. For those that want great sound, I think they will look for simple solutions that can be tailored to their choices ... "Where's the app dude" kind of thinking ... I don't see them being satisfied with a fixed solution.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
catch's perspective

So tell me Catch, what is a Jazz system? Is that a system that interprets Jazz notes separate from Classical? And tell us catch, how does it do this? And catch tell us, would it be more high end if it had a switch that allowed you to choose different music types? So maybe these DSP systems are better than the high end ones that can only play one type of music? What's your perspective on this Catch? Or maybe we should setup different systems in different rooms and label the rooms, Jazz, Classical or Rock. What do you think Catch?

So Catch maybe we shouldn't be concerned about these "limits, along with the virtues and vices of the combination of their gear and rooms". They just are what they are right? And we as audiophiles, audio being what this is, and phile being someone who is an enthusiast (deeply into something) are wrong to explore how far the hobby goes? And if someone has a breakthrough and wants to share it and build products that take us further, well they are really just being an egotist. Sorry but I don't get your mindset. This is a hobby that has "enthusiast" attached to it. Why would I as a designer want to lesson the experience?

Dear Mr. Mozart

I'd like to hear the entire hall when Charles Mackkerras's conducted some of your music, but I have an audio buddy who feels if I go after this, I'm being egotistical and perhaps wrong to make the necessary adjustments. I'm sure the Prague Chamber Orchestra did a fantastic job of performing, but sadly I will never know, cause I'm going to listen to this on my Jazz system, and you know how that's going to go. I don't want you to think this is an excuse or anything, but this time around I'm going to have to live with what I got. It is what it is you know.

Please send my regards to the rest of the guys, maybe someday I'll get that classical system I've been reading about after I sell off my Jazz one on AudioGon.

sincerly yours and musically frustrated
:(

sorry catch I think we'll take another road

michael green
MGA/Roomtune

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
No doubt, a lot of people feel duped

Many people equate fidelity with dollars. If I spend more, I'll get more. They feel duped when they are both financially poorer and sonically no better...or even worse off than before they spent the money. However, more often than not, they reach this conclusion because they simply don't know what it is that they don't know. This isn't unique to High End audio, but a result of marketing and advertising.

When I say, "people don't know what it is that they don't know," I'm talking about not knowing the importance of things like proper speaker positioning, proper listening position, proper speaker compatibility with the amplifier, proper speaker for the size of the room, along with their needed sound pressure levels and low frequency extension...and equally relevant, the quality of their source material and musical style preferences. And this just touches on a fraction of the things that are important to getting good sound.

Very few people start off knowing all these sorts of things and many continue well into the hobby without ever learning these things. They blame the gear and fret over all the money they spend swapping stuff in and out with little to show for their efforts and money spent because they have not yet learned the importance of getting the basics right to begin with.

Before they know it, and in an effort to try and fix things or give it another try, they read something about how this or that tweak, or this brand of cables "transformed" somebody elses system to "new levels." So, they spend even more money in hopes that this is what has been keeping their expensive components from doing what all that money was supposed to do in the first place. Nope, that didn't work and now they are convinced the whole High End/Audiophile stuff is a bunch of crap. And the next time they read something about cables or gear needing to burn-in or settle for several hundred hours they throw up their hands and conclude that audiophiles are some sort of subculture of fools with more money than sense.

The first rule of investing is to never invest in something you don't understand. You either take the time to educate yourself to the point that you do understand or you hire someone else to manage your investments. Or, as Malcolm Forbes would always begin in his magazine, "With all thy getting, get understanding." The same approach could be said of buying expensive audio components without spending the time to understand what it is you are buying.

In general, most audiophiles who have either benefited from the experience of others or have paid their own dues, move on to new discoveries in audio and begin to personalize their connection with sound and music. It seems the more we learn, the more we appreciate things within playback that can hardly be appreciated by everyone, much less communicated in a way that would indicate the importance of the minutia of some of it. That makes it very difficult to explain to other people. You simply can't explain experience and personalization and also convey its importance in a way that would avoid needing to write a book on it. This is where the stereotypical assumption that audiophiles are a bunch of snobs stems from, I suspect. Audiophiles simply realize the futility of trying to explain something that has to be experienced personally to understand. Nobody can teach decades of experience within a few paragraphs or conclude that a person would or should value the same aspects of audio reproduction if they could.

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
What is a Jazz system?

Most seasoned listeners recognize a combination of components that excel in certain areas of reproduction and tend to consider these combinations as favoring one style of music over another. For some, it might be a tube based system that has a midrange character that favors less complicated accoustic material at the expense of the visceralness of electronic or synthesized material. When I think of a jazz system, for example, I would probably be much more forgiving of how it performs below 40hz and much less forgiving of whether or not an accoustic bass was properly rendered. I would want the bite of horns and the sax and piano to have their signatures present, along with a good rendering of the cymbals and technique employed in playing them.

Mostly, though, I would probably be ultra picky about the quality of recordings. I like jazz a lot and it gets a lot of listening time in my house.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
nah

Nah, that has nothing to do with seasoning my friend. That's just a guy who likes a tiny part of the whole and has built a system that can only deliver that part.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
a seasoned listener

A seasoned listener is that guy who learns every square inch of his room, electric, and mechanics. When you walk in his place your greeted with more music than a record shop and he knows the ins and outs of every label, every recording and every style. Sure he has audiophile stuff there but this is a guy who has spent his life finding the gems, and not just the gems but knows how to take something a little less than a gem and make it sound like magic. You sit there and listen to the recording and your almost in tears. A seasoned listener doesn't know or care about name brands. He's forgotten reviews and could care less who is in the popular audiophile race.

The season listeners chair is well worn and the only chair in the room as he invites you in, sets you up, asks you if it sounds ok, and leaves. He comes back at the end of the recording to see if you want more, or would like to make a little change to the music. He asks you what you want to hear, then carefully puts it on and listens for a second. He might make a slight tweak change and say "let that settle for a couple of minutes", you have a drink then he comes back into the room and says "ok it's ready", then you sit down for another listen.

A seasoned listener is the guy you call and always hear music in the back ground. He has this way of taking recordings you would never play and makes them sound like a million bucks as you wonder how in the heck did he do that. A seasoned listener is always on the look for something he hasn't heard before as well as relaxes with his favorites. He can play complicated music as easily as simple.

A seasoned listener doesn't have a showroom, everything in that room has a purpose and he is keenly aware of any change but doesn't worry cause he knows his place like braille.

The guy who has a "Jazz system", nah, that isn't a seasoned listener that's just an old man who couldn't get his system to play anything else but the easiest things to play. He has an audio closet of failures that could stock a used stereo store. He's opinionated and makes claims of having audiophile wisdom of some sort. He is the guy who jumps in with name brands and formulas. He doesn't understand that the room is the system and works around things in that room that shouldn't be anywhere near an audio system. You sit and listen to his system and after a while your skin starts to crawl because he has removed the music and replaced it with the sound of components. Certain things sound like heaven until you start trying to put the pieces together and get this very unnatural feeling. Something isn't quite in time, and when you put on a piece of music you are familar with you hear huge parts of the recording missing. The system falls apart in front of you and there's nothing you or him can do about it. You know it's not the recording cause you were just playing it on your system. You and he come over to your house and the same thing happens with his music on your system, it falls apart. At that point you realize that your jazz system is completely different from his jazz system. He's thinking how can your system sound so bad and your thinking the same about his. You find a few audiophile recordings that play on both and talk about how your systems are so revealing. "wow what a great hobby, if others only knew how great my systems was".

The jazz system guy has a system that very few music lovers can stomach or may sound great out of the gate but after you sit there a few minutes start thinking about other things to do. The seasoned listeners system is the one that has a line of friends who can't wait to get over with their new copy of whatever. "hey do you mind if I listen a while" is what the seasoned listener hears from visitors, audiophiles and music lovers alike, and all kinds of wonderful music. He's the guy you can say, do you mind tweaking the sound a little, and he asks you how would you like it to sound? Within minutes your in music heaven. The jazz system, or any limited system is only something that in time will get old like the guy listening to it, proud to the end but only had the opportunity to play in his little play box thinking that's all there was and the rest of the world was wrong.

Big difference between a seasoned audiophile component collector who listens to the components, and a seasoned listener of music.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Results.

Hello Michael,

>>> “Almost anything applied to the surfaces of materials changed the sound.” <<<

I absolutely agree.

>>> “When we did our testing of crystals we noticed that the frequencies would gather (cluster) and as we moved them this attraction would move and change with the movement. We decided to use other materials the same way and see if the effects were the same, they were.” <<<

I absolutely agree.

So, does the fact that other materials which had similar effects as the crystals challenge the widely held and FIRMLY held view (by at least one person on Audio Asylum) that crystals are ‘dealing with RF’ or are the other materials you tried also ‘dealing with RF’ or are the crystals AND the other materials ‘dealing with vibrations’ ? As you see, at least TWO explanations for the same effect !!!

>>> “Every material we moved around the room in the same places as the crystals had their own flavor that was added to the music. We then took several different types of cups and cans and began filling them with water. If you changed the amount of water the sound changed. Tested different liquids in the cans and the same thing.” <<<

I absolutely agree.

Now, was every material you moved around the room ‘dealing with vibrations’ ?

Now. Were all the different types of cups and cans filled with water ‘dealing with vibrations’ ?

>>> “At this point we went back to the crystals and compared them against different voiced wood, and the wood did far more than the crystals. We did a combo of crystals and wood and crystals mounted in the wood, everything we tried the sound changed. Our conclusions with this is pretty obvious, systems are tunable.” <<<

Of course systems are ‘tunable’ to use YOUR description, because everything one tries DOES change the sound !!!! We have been there, done that and worn the tee shirt !!

The next question is WHY does everything one does change the sound ?????

WHY did different liquids in the cans change the sound ?????

When you listened to different liquids, did you grade them between Very Good, Good, Not so good ? If you had graded them, did you ask WHY did one liquid give a Very Good result and WHY did one liquid give a Not so good result?

>>> “People say "who wants to fuss with tuning" well these fixed products and materials make that game many times more difficult.” <<<

You are back again referring to ‘fixed’ products. Whenever you have ‘treated’ some materials and improving their effect (which you have stated that you do), then that ‘treatment is then ‘fixed’.

I would suggest that the room acoustic panels which you market are not made from standard – untreated – materials. I would suggest that if you have found a beneficial treatment for the basic materials you use, you will use that treatment on them !!
Which would mean that, yes, you would recommend ‘variable’ positions for the panels but the panels would have a ‘fixed’ earlier ‘treatment’.

>>> “We worked extensively with foils, many different kinds, all of which made a change in the sound. You can read about this on TuneLand in the archives.” <<<

Did you ask WHY ?

>>> “We found one thing about all of these foils, copper, aluminum, rainbow, different colors, neted, corrugated, brass, zinc, frozen heated and others. If you add a glue or double sided tape, polish the materials turn into dampeners and part of the signal will cluster or be omitted.” <<<

It depends on WHAT glue !!!!!!!!!! Did you ask WHY those results ?

>>> “Do these types of things make a difference? Sure they do, but so do all materials. The important thing here for the listeners is to learn how materials work and how to use them in a system to make the desired changes.” <<<

How, yes, and WHY.

THIS is what I don’t understand. You say you have tried all these things but I don’t see your answers as to WHY the sound changed !!! Other than “it must be vibrations”.

You repeatedly say “Tuning is the answer”. Nowhere do I see you reaching the questioning position now reached by a growing number of people (experienced in audio people) as the example I gave earlier. i.e John Atkinson’s :-

>>> “There are things that boggle my mind in High End audio. There are things that I would like to think I understand (from a technical and engineering point of view) and then something happens which literally blows my mind and it doesn’t fit the world view. “ <<<

From the way you write, Michael, it appears that everything you experience “fits your world view” perfectly.

>>> “but until you get to the place where you understand that every piece of music has it's on signature vibratory code which makes the materials in your system and environment react differently at different times” <<<

So, it’s the vibratory code of the music which makes the materials in the system and environment react differently at different times ?????

Now, referring to the thorny subject of showing, audio equipment which one is using.

How on earth can a photo of one of your cans, in your room, assist anyone. How on earth can anyone SEE a different liquid in one can and another liquid in another can ?

You can’t, so looking at a photo is of no earthly use.

You CAN say to someone, yes, try this because we (and others) have found it improves the sound. Or try that because we (and others) have found that it improves the sound. But saying to someone – “look at this photo and all will be evident” *********

Regards,
May Belt.
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 42 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Why can't we all just get along?

Michael wrote,

"At this point we went back to the crystals and compared them against different voiced wood, and the wood did far more than the crystals. We did a combo of crystals and wood and crystals mounted in the wood, everything we tried the sound changed. Our conclusions with this is pretty obvious, systems are tunable. Not only are systems tunable but so was each different recording and the setups needed to be differed slightly in some cases and hugely in others. In comparison to variable products designed to make these changes the fixed tweaks make it so the listener would be moving things around forever to reach a level of performance that was close. People say "who wants to fuss with tuning" well these fixed products and materials make that game many times more difficult. Think about it, a change was made. There's the proof of tunability. Do you want to spend the rest of your days jumping from one fix to the next, cause that's what thousands of the audiophiles do, or would it be easier to go tunable right from the start and simply make the changes if and when you want? Food for thought."

Let me point out the lack of Logic in your position here, if you don't mind too much. You are accusing audiophiles of "jumping from one fix to the next" yet that is precisely what Tunees do - jump from tuning one recording to the next. Hel-loo! Doesn't it make more sense to tweak the system and room, you know, get to a certain point where the system sounds relatively good and take a break and leave things alone for a while? Your accusation that audiophiles jump from one fix to the next is not accurate, either. Dismissive yes, accurate no. What audiophiles actually do is discover a problem that was previously overlooked in how the system operates, including the room, be it static electric fields or magnetic fields or how the laser reading operation produces errors or how RFI/EMI affects the signal. For audiophiles, it's like an archaeological dig, finding new problems way down below the surface of what everyone like yourself sees. Then finding solutions to the problems. Ignoring the problems and sweeping them under the rug as Tunees apparently do doesn't make them go away. Besides everyone knows that anyone can perform the experiment wrong, and it happens all the time. That's the reason why there are such things as controversial tweaks like crystals, and wood, especially Mpingo, and even water as in my Frog Jump in Water Tweak. At the wave of a hand you've managed to turn CD fluids into a controversial tweak overnight. Congrats. I don't know if the cream you're referring to is the PWB cream electret but of it isn't I suggest you identify it so we won't jump to that conclusion. If it is the PBW cream didn't you even bother to read the instructions? Geez! Now, Crystals is a subject near and dear to my heart and I realize how tricky they can be to get right in a system. I was the first to offer a systematic approach for using crystals in the room and in the system. It is absurd to think you can just place crystals willy nilly around the room and expect anything. It all depends on which crystals, where they're used, the size of the crystals, how they're treated, and how many different types you use. Doing "the experiment" is not sufficient, doing it correctly is what's important. Foils are also tricky. I'm not terribly surprised you had null results. You were foiled again.

I kind of have this queasy feeling that this experiment kick you're on is actually intended to dismiss audiophiles and audiophile tweaks and to pump up TuneLand. I.e., business as usual. Thanks goodness I didn't see you experimented with any of MY products. I bet you probably feel like you have single handedly done a number on audiophiles and audiophile tweaks with a wave of your hand. High comedy on the Internet. Beats me why anyone would believe that negative results for ANY experiment would mean anything! much less that the thing doesn't work. It's failure to understand the scientific method plain and simple.

One pill makes you taller, one pill makes you small, the one that mother gives you don't do anything at all...

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
testing and referencing

Hi Geoff

The experiment kick never ends for us. I can't remember a time when we weren't doing testing and experimenting. Always things to learn and explore in this biz. Not just the audiophile part but all the other parts that intermingle with each other. It's a lot of fun really and for me it helps to test and even retest from time to time so that I don't get stuck in my thinking.

You mentioned me promoting TuneLand. I've always enjoyed promoting tuning, and having my own forum is a blast. It's great to be a part of listeners journeys. You know we talked about referencing on some of these threads, and for me this is one of the highs that makes the hobby fun. When people start talking about what they are listening to there's this connection that happens. For me all the audiophile-ish stuff fades when the music begins, or someone gives me an idea of something to listen to.

It's about doing for me Geoff. With the difference in opinions that you and I have, when you talked about Modern Times and the heat treating you did, those were the two times I felt connected with you. And during those times I could care less that we take different approaches to the hobby. I mean it when I say that I appreciate you and May taking the time to let me get to know you guys a little better. I now can see the differences and I'm cool with them. One of the fun things is getting to know someones personality and there's a ton of them in this hobby. It's different from the music world but has it's own thing going on.

have a great day

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Catch22
Catch22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 21 2010 - 1:58pm
That deserves some sort of Excellence in Rantage Award

It's those sort of letters in the Manufacturer's Comments section of Stereophile that are so much more valuable to the readers of Stereophile than the entire review efforts of the Reviewer. And who doesn't love the "Letters" section of magazines?

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 42 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Base Camp

Michael wrote,

"It's about doing for me Geoff. With the difference in opinions that you and I have, when you talked about Modern Times and the heat treating you did, those were the two times I felt connected with you. And during those times I could care less that we take different approaches to the hobby. I mean it when I say that I appreciate you and May taking the time to let me get to know you guys a little better. I now can see the differences and I'm cool with them. One of the fun things is getting to know someones personality and there's a ton of them in this hobby. It's different from the music world but has it's own thing going on."

Yes, it was nice to talk about Modern Times, which like some other Dylan recordings responds very well to tweaking, both the CD and the system. Slow Train Coming and Oh, Mercy! also reveal a wealth of previously undetected ambience, separation of instruments, purity and naturalness of the voice, objectives of the producer, etc. when the CD and the system are subjected to tweaking. I'm not talking about just a little tweaking, I'm talking about, for lack of a better term, tweaking lifestyle. What I have found over the years is that there is not enough time left once a man hits say forty five to actually do all the things he comes to realize MUST be done in order to get where he's trying to go, to get to the Promised Land. A new target is always ahead. Now, I know a lot of folks get to a certain place and think to themselves, gee, this must certainly be what they're talking about when they say Nirvana. "I have arrived! But I would say they have reached Base Camp, if they're lucky, not a higher camp. And certainly not the summit, nowhere near it, to use a Mt. Everest metaphor. Base Camp is at 18,000 ft., less than two thirds of the way to the summit!

"When you control the mail you control...information." ~ Newman

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance." - old audiophile axiom

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Pages

  • X