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May 6, 2007 - 7:02am
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Equipment between speakers - why?
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All too common and generally, for the reasons you cite, sub-optimal. I suspect it is for the same reasons that so many HT installs put the flat-panel display over the fireplace. They are iconic representations of "the system." Neither is optimal but there's an abiding impression in our culture that this is how it is done.
Kal
Symmetry is important for good imaging, especially in the front part of the room, and especially between your ears and the speakers. What happens behind the speakers is less important, and what happens behind your head is less important still. So putting your gear to the side anywhere between you and the speakers will actually make things worse, not better.
As for reflections, most speakers send sound forward and outward in an arc. So if the equipment is even with or slightly behind the speakers, it will not be in the direct path of sound and so won't be a source of reflections.
--Ethan
Most equipment was in the front due to pride ( we do like to show off what we have to a degree), the lack of romote IR than did not really come into play until HT, and for most of us it just seemed logical.
Most of us never really agonized over room EQ(we should have, but didn't), we just wanted to hear some tunes. Then HT brought us auto EQ calibration with measurement mics and made the sweet spot really sweet.
From what I seen and heard it would be near impossible to get most customers to due what Dr. Kal did and use the same speakers for the front three channels which has always made the most sense to me. I would think that his 3-800 series B&Ws with the Levinson amps must be really, really special to say the least. This would be MC SACD to die for I would think.
Also, as I get older I am finding that clarity of dialog is NOT an insignificant thing as would be the foundation of the main vocalist or instrumentalist in MC music. Doing less in the center channel does not make sense to me.
The three larger front speakers is easier if you are doing video projection/screen as when the room is dark what and where the speakers are is less of an issue, at least to me. This is where the issue of fashion comes into play. This works out better if you are a movie buff rather than a Televison/Sports viewer I would think. Being in the dark most of the time is not really what most people want I have found. With the price, quality, and size of LCD, Plasma, and DLP video becoming very reasonable this is less of an issue.
Kal is also right in that you must put that big honk'n TV where folks can see it. It is the center of your universe...now!
I would think that with all the mistakes made with gear placement that the auto EQ would fix most, if not all of this. That would be for Kal to call. We have not even taken into account the significant other who WILL have some say in all of this.
With all due respect to you HT/multi-channel buffs, I think the original question/suggestion pertained to two channel stereo set-ups and that Ethan's answer was the correct one. As an aside, I've never had a pair of speakers which needed to be as much as 7 feet from the wall behind them to produce their best imaging. Am I alone in that?
Yes it was related to a two channel set up. And Ethan did answer the question. Ethan is the ghost of Christmas audio set up. As usual, he knows his stuff.
BTW, Ethan will be happy to know that my two channel setup has all the equipment stacked vertically on top of each other in the middle between the four Sansui speakers that are spread out perpendicular to the stereo equipment. DUP, that means the speakers are standing straight up.
My experience has been that this depends on the size of the room and the height of the woofers. I have set speakers up from about three to nine feet from the back wall for optimal imaging/clarity.
Michael Green Audio in Nashville has tried to do this with his own line of speakers. I called on him in my old Jolida days. Every room there had the speakers out in the middle of the room well away from the walls. It was the strangest way to demo speakers I had ever seen. The sound lacked focus and position to me.
I have never met a real person who had a listening room anywhere near like this. I never met a wife who would tolerate it either.
Maybe it was his attempt at "product differentiation", but in this case I'm not sure a great marketing move. I have not seen other dealers here in ATL attempt anything like this.
The equipment was all stacked in the front due to no remote IR repeaters available and no one wanted to reach over their head toward the back or the side of the room to adjust something. In a closet was out of the question.
At least that was my experience. This is where HT changed eveything. I still doubt that most 2 channel buffs use remote IR repeaters. I could be wrong.
I used to think the equipment was in between the speakers so the speaker wire runs could be the shortest possible. It seemed to me, that when using small gauge wire like we used to, this made sense. Shorter wire equaled less resistance.
Back in the '90s I had all my equipment in a different room w/IR repeaters from Radio Shack. They were little black pyramids, and worked great.
The electronics were on a concrete slab in a glassed in porch and the speakers were in the living room. The electronics included a tube amp and the speakers were Klipsch LaScalas. We used to have these incredible Xmas parties w/about 150 or so people and the place would really rock. The electronics were safely hidden away from the crowd and microphonics. People would start turning up the volume and by midnight those LaScalas would be going full blast. What fun, really was the social event of the year. Was even covered in the paper one year. The reporter had to swear in front of a real Judge that was present that he would not reveal names or location under threat of never being invited again. Those were the days. Anyway, electronics in a different room can really work well in the right circumstance.
I have tried it both ways, many times, in many different rooms. I never could pin down any significant differences, either way. This, of course, is NOT home theater, but 2-channel stereo. I have put all electronics in an adjacent room, drilling holes in the walls to accomodate the wiring from room to room. It wasn't worth the trouble.
Caution. If you use analog gear in your system, you MUST have a stable set-up. Now, that COULD make a difference. Purists are quite strident about having the turntable support in another room. Still, with any gear, cheap or very expensive, I never could pin down any significant differences, as long as there was no feedback from vibrating stands (or wood floors). I often listen in the dark, so the visual angle is not an issue.
Speaker placement is a different issue. It depends on the speakers, the room, and listener preference. In a large enough room (I have lived in some small ones...), I have personally had the best results with the speakers about 6' to 7' out into the room, at least 1 meter from the side walls. This allows the sound of a symphony orchestra to fill in the rear spaces, from corner to corner. Which is what I hear at live events. I have to have that. You may not. There are no space police.
This response referred to HT only by analogy. My point was that, while equipment originally might have been put in the center for reasons of easy connectability and/or display purposes, such current placement is often simply because "it's always done that way." It's a tradition!
As for the comments about the importance of symmetry, I generally agree but would not put symmetry ahead of other competing and, perhaps, more important issues. Large bulky objects between speakers do change the imaging. Whether your rack of stuff does so depends on your rack of stuff.
Kal
Exactly.
It's all about the quest for good air.
Good point, and I should have elaborated more.
It depends on what's in the rack and how bulky the rack and gear are, and also on how directional the speakers are. Typical driver type speakers (versus flat panels) have a radiation pattern more or less like the one shown below. Once you get up to 1 KHz and above - where imaging is affected - much less sound goes off to the sides than forward.
--Ethan
Yes. OTOH, the fall off does not mean that there is still not significant (although) lower output widely distributed at those frequencies. And, as you say, it is different depending on the particular speaker.
Kal
Kal,
Agreed. In engineering circles, anything 10 dB or more below the original signal is considered not terribly damaging. This does not mean it's insignificant! Just not terrible. If most folks could get their rooms past terrible they'd be thrilled by the improvement.
In this case, if the speaker's output 90 degrees to the sides is 10 dB down, it will be even less of a problem in practice because the resulting reflections will be even further attenuated.
I believe in the "top 30" rule - what matters most is the top 30 dB.
--Ethan
So why the emphysis in sound treatment behind the speakers on the front wall?
Also your statement regarding "What happens behind your head is less important still" I find difficult to agree with. I have noticed a major influence in the quality of sound caused by the reflective/absorbtive surfaces directly behind my head.
My comments are not meant to be critical, but to be educational.
I know this is common, but it's third in the list of importance in my opinion. The polar plot above is from an article I wrote about just this:
http://www.realtraps.com/art_front-wall.htm
I was talking about left/right symmetry only. You are correct that reflections from a wall behind you can be very damaging. The closer the wall, the worse the peaks and nulls.
--Ethan