Thanks Bill ... I kinda figured it was an avg based on other DR test dumps.

Geoff,
Could we get a list of the treatments done on the disk sent to Bill?
I may have missed them since this thread has gotten rather long.

Also, could you please hold off on the hello's ... Is that really necessary .. Let's have some fun with this ... I think the assumption that cryo was a large part of the treatment is certainly valid.

Will there be listening tests of the treated disks versus non treated disks using non ripped source material? I know you want to start with this initial test with Bill. But as he and I have speculated, ripped files may not show much difference in comparison.

A legacy playback environment where all the digital playback gotchas are present may yield more interesting results. Yes, the listening tests of the treated disks will not answer the DR question as Catch has mentioned, but, it would show that some help for compression is available on an enjoyment level and in the end isn't that what really matters.

Hi Toledo,

I did state that I did not ‘expect’ there would be any difference between in the DR produced by ‘standard’ CD & the ‘treated’ CD after being ripped.

But as far as I know, and please understand I profess no expertise in the specific technology, the process of reading the data from the discs whether for playing by a CD player or writing to a hard drive should be essentially the same.

If there is someone who can lend valid expertise to this supposition, please enlighten us.

Additionally, Dan may have a CD player he can put in his system.
This is an option during the testing I could possibly peruse, but it would significantly delay the return of the disc to Geoff.
I have already promised the disc would be returned within 24 hrs.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

wkhanna wrote:

Hi Toledo,

I did state that I did not ‘expect’ there would be any difference between in the DR produced by ‘standard’ CD & the ‘treated’ CD after being ripped.

But as far as I know, and please understand I profess no expertise in the specific technology, the process of reading the data from the discs whether for playing by a CD player or writing to a hard drive should be essentially the same.

If there is someone who can lend valid expertise to this supposition, please enlighten us.

Additionally, Dan may have a CD player he can put in his system.
This is an option during the testing I could possibly peruse, but it would significantly delay the return of the disc to Geoff.
I have already promised the disc would be returned within 24 hrs.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

Any additional tests that add value like the one you suggest with CD player I approve in advance, even if it adds a day or two.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do artificial atoms right

Geoff,

This optional / additional testing will require both discs be given to Dan after I have ripped yours.

He would then perform the CD player comparison & return the disc to you.

I will contact him to see if the logistics of this new tack can be completed in a reasonable time frame.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

Just checked on the eta of the new 'standard' CD of Modern Times I ordered yesterday...

"DELIVERY ESTIMATE Friday, July 18, 2014 "

Unfortunately, it is too late in the order processing to obtain expedited delivery options.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

Hi Geoff

I only wanted to hear your treated CD that's all. BTW, if you look at my history of aproving products in the industry afterward, they ended up selling in the thousands. I do my listening completely outside of my own box, that's why I tune. If your product would have sounded good you would have had my pushing along with yours and May's. I'm sorry you saw this as something different again, and bent it into something it isn't.

I can only extend a hand to people I can't help them shake it. Building bridges in the industry is a good thing not bad, but your doing every thing you can to burn this one and we can't understand why. We are extremely straight forward in our testing, maybe one of the straightest groups you would find. So it makes me sad that you don't trust us, but that's life.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

This should not be a tune vs non tuner situation. If the treatment improves playback, sign me up.
Everyone is always looking for a new tool for the toolchest ... There is always room for improvement.
You wouldn't believe what some tunees do to gain an improvement..that's what we do.

Do you think we scour all available sources for the lowest mass components that can be tuned, take them apart and mod them, search endlessly through lumber yards for good wood and many other things for giggles. It's all about the music.

Hi Toledo

These guys have us so wrong! I think it's because they are involved in the negative end of things and we are always looking for the good. That hidden treasure in the music and the ways to dig it out.

What Geoff doesn't get is, us liking what he does to the CD could be one of the biggest things for him to come along in a long time. Some of these guys don't know when they have friends.

It would be wise of Geoff to get the CD to you, then to me, then back to him or maybe I could forward it to be reviewed.

oh well

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

wkhanna wrote:

Just checked on the eta of the new 'standard' CD of Modern Times I ordered yesterday...

"DELIVERY ESTIMATE Friday, July 18, 2014 "

Unfortunately, it is too late in the order processing to obtain expedited delivery options.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

Bill, sometimes the eta is on the conservative side so you might look for it sooner than Friday. In any case, it's not the end of the world even if it shows up as late as Friday.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

wkhanna wrote:

Geoff,

This optional / additional testing will require both discs be given to Dan after I have ripped yours.

He would then perform the CD player comparison & return the disc to you.

I will contact him to see if the logistics of this new tack can be completed in a reasonable time frame.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

I have no problem with that.

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

As requested here is a list of the CD treatments I applied to Modern Times prior to shipping the CD to Bill.

PWB's Red X Pen, applied to label side
Machina Dynamica's Dark Matter invisible light absorber, a permanent thin film applied to the label side of the CD
Machina Dynamica's Colored pens: black, orange, purple, cyan
These permanent pen colors are applied to outer edge, inner edge and the blank 1/8" track just prior to the start of data on the shiny side
PWB's special foils (2) + Quantum Cream applied to label
Black electrical tape, 3 one inch long "spokes" on label for stiffening, applied to label
Machina Dynamica's Super Intelligent Chip - CD treated for 2 seconds, permanent
Xtreme AV Liquid Resolution 2-step CD Treatment for data side
PWB's Leaf Green Cream, a smidgen applied to label
Freezer treatment, 12 hours at -10 F, slow thaw of 2 hours

NOTE: Three additional treatments, which are temporary in nature, I routinely apply to all CDs JUST PRIOR to playing but which will NOT be applied to Modern Times for Bill's DR and listening tests: CD demagnetization using Walker Audio Talisman, CD ionization using Machina Dynamica's Particle Accelerator tourmaline gun, and light treatment using Machina Dynamica's CD Re-animator multicolor stroboscopic light gun.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait wrote:

wkhanna wrote:

Geoff,

This optional / additional testing will require both discs be given to Dan after I have ripped yours.

He would then perform the CD player comparison & return the disc to you.

I will contact him to see if the logistics of this new tack can be completed in a reasonable time frame.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

I have no problem with that.

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

Geoff,

Your flexibility & patience are appreciated.
I promise your property will be well cared for.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

I only wanted to hear your treated CD that's all. BTW, if you look at my history of aproving products in the industry afterward, they ended up selling in the thousands. I do my listening completely outside of my own box, that's why I tune. If your product would have sounded good you would have had my pushing along with yours and May's. I'm sorry you saw this as something different again, and bent it into something it isn't.

I can only extend a hand to people I can't help them shake it. Building bridges in the industry is a good thing not bad, but your doing every thing you can to burn this one and we can't understand why. We are extremely straight forward in our testing, maybe one of the straightest groups you would find. So it makes me sad that you don't trust us, but that's life.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I appears, to me at least, you're being a little bit overly dramatic. Let's allow this thing to proceed without all the hystrionics, shall we? As I said before, I do not wish this to be turned into a dog and pony show.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

No problem doing my own tests. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t250-cryo-freeze-testing and http://www.stereophile.com/content/freeze-those-babies

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Since I'm coming in on the end of this (I'm sure Bill will fill me in) I'm taking it we are ripping both discs, doing a DR comparison (why not) and then comparing both and seeing if there is difference on a treated disc vs untreated?

I can do some comparison within Adobe Audition to verify any differences within the files as well (spectrum analysis)...

I can also do whatever other testing we'd like. I can even put my modified Cambridge Audio 840 CDP back in the mix on my system and play both from that for comparisons. :)

Anything that anyone wants Bill and I to test... I'm in!

Bill, I'm available whenever you get the discs and can bring them over (provided the wife lets you out!) ;) ha ha ha!

PewterTA wrote:

Since I'm coming in on the end of this (I'm sure Bill will fill me in) I'm taking it we are ripping both discs, doing a DR comparison (why not) and then comparing both and seeing if there is difference on a treated disc vs untreated?

I can do some comparison within Adobe Audition to verify any differences within the files as well (spectrum analysis)...

I can also do whatever other testing we'd like. I can even put my modified Cambridge Audio 840 CDP back in the mix on my system and play both from that for comparisons. :)

Anything that anyone wants Bill and I to test... I'm in!

Bill, I'm available whenever you get the discs and can bring them over (provided the wife lets you out!) ;) ha ha ha!

Hello, welcome aboard. Speaking for myself, I would like to limit the testing to DR since that is what all the fracas is about on this thread and as far as the loudness wars is concerned. However, having said that, I would be particularly interested in signal to ratio if I had to pick one additional parameter to measure. How difficult would it be to obtain an average SNR for both the untreated file and the treated file? Or maybe for a particular track obtain the SNR for that track on both files. The CD player comparison of the 2 discs would be very interesting and important, I suspect we all agree about that. Lastly, how difficult would it be to publish the snapshot of DR (and perhaps SNR) for the two files on this forum?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

The Disc has landed.
Last evening & with kid kid gloves (literally I used non-shedding cotton gloves from work to gently handle the disc) I ripped the treated disc to my hard drive using my dBpoweramp CD Ripper software & carefully placed it back in its jewel case.

The dBpoweramp software automatically accesses a database on the internet that compares my download to all the other downloads made of this release that have been reported to it and then compares the results. The idea being, if my downloaded data matches all the others, then there were no errors based on this comparison.
I apologize in advance for the ridiculous use of bandwidth which follows. I am providing all of this data in the sincere attempt to provide transparent disclosure of my testing. The following is the report of this comparison:

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 1' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 01 - Thunder on the Mountain.flac'
Track 1: Ripped LBA 0 to 26625 (5:55) in 0:26. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 01 - Thunder on the Mountain.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 194) [Pass 1]
CRC32: CAD8B16F AccurateRip CRC: 74D3AB16 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-1]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 194 [CRCv2 74d3ab16]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 4a661f84]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 190 [CRCv2 8d593a4d], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 5d4baf20], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 2' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 02 - Spirit on the Water.flac'
Track 2: Ripped LBA 26625 to 61323 (7:42) in 0:20. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 02 - Spirit on the Water.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 193) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 6679D460 AccurateRip CRC: 52F1FA80 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-2]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 193 [CRCv2 52f1fa80]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 3ba73ac7]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 190 [CRCv2 f5ac74cf], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 d7209c7f], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 3' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 03 - Rollin' and Tumblin'.flac'
Track 3: Ripped LBA 61323 to 88439 (6:01) in 0:14. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 03 - Rollin' and Tumblin'.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 197) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 7C0BEDCE AccurateRip CRC: 662FE2C9 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-3]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 197 [CRCv2 662fe2c9]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 48871e68]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 189 [CRCv2 9aa2cfe5], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 7756c6f4], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 4' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 04 - When the Deal Goes Down.flac'
Track 4: Ripped LBA 88439 to 111253 (5:04) in 0:11. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 04 - When the Deal Goes Down.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 196) [Pass 1]
CRC32: BBAC8C49 AccurateRip CRC: 434CBF44 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-4]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 196 [CRCv2 434cbf44]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 6374e318]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 191 [CRCv2 3df6eb59], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 59673d98], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 5' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 05 - Someday Baby.flac'
Track 5: Ripped LBA 111253 to 133420 (4:55) in 0:10. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 05 - Someday Baby.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 197) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 79E36F41 AccurateRip CRC: 3ACE9FEA (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-5]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 197 [CRCv2 3ace9fea]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 46d054d]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 192 [CRCv2 6061b501], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 25648655], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 6' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 06 - Workingman's Blues #2.flac'
Track 6: Ripped LBA 133420 to 160977 (6:07) in 0:12. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 06 - Workingman's Blues #2.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 195) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 3BEDE3A6 AccurateRip CRC: 37D5FDCC (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-6]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 195 [CRCv2 37d5fdcc]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 5ed19334]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 191 [CRCv2 c1c94c99], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 e2dbdd8a], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 7' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 07 - Beyond the Horizon.flac'
Track 7: Ripped LBA 160977 to 186185 (5:36) in 0:10. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 07 - Beyond the Horizon.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 192) [Pass 1]
CRC32: EF36BC76 AccurateRip CRC: D4FD6F6D (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-7]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 192 [CRCv2 d4fd6f6d]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 7651696b]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 189 [CRCv2 97857d12], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 3386ce6d], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 8' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 08 - Nettie Moore.flac'
Track 8: Ripped LBA 186185 to 217124 (6:52) in 0:12. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 08 - Nettie Moore.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 193) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 19B7A7FD AccurateRip CRC: F921F9A6 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-8]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 193 [CRCv2 f921f9a6]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 4f17ea0f]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 191 [CRCv2 3c7981b3], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 8be5481f], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 9' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 09 - The Levee's Gonna Break.flac'
Track 9: Ripped LBA 217124 to 242859 (5:43) in 0:09. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 09 - The Levee's Gonna Break.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 197) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 5C81ABC5 AccurateRip CRC: DC8A49FB (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-9]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 197 [CRCv2 dc8a49fb]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 5e08c8bd]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 191 [CRCv2 7e8ff2e5], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 fa8d42ad], Using Pressing Offset -12

Information ripping to FLAC, 'Track 10' to 'M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 10 - Ain't Talkin'.flac'
Track 10: Ripped LBA 242859 to 282464 (8:48) in 0:14. Filename: M:\My CD Rips\Bob Dylan - Modern Times from Geoff Kait\Bob Dylan 10 - Ain't Talkin'.flac
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 194) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 65DEAEFC AccurateRip CRC: 5436320A (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-00170d0d-00b7ed82-930eb60a-10]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 194 [CRCv2 5436320a]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 bfc4cd50]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 185 [CRCv2 4770e2a7], Using Pressing Offset -12
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 200 [CRCv1 aa805a4c], Using Pressing Offset -12

SOOOO………, in other words, the short version is, I have a clean rip.

I then listened to the entire file on my optimized system using Kernel Streaming, running Foobar 1.1.6 and using Fidelizer 5.0.0.0 which prioritizes my operating system to focus only on the audio playback functions.
The ‘standard’ disc (when it arrives) will be subjectively evaluated using the exact same method.

I will continue replaying the album in order to begin building a ‘sense’ for the nature of Geoff’s disc.

I will reserve any comments or impressions until I have the ‘standard’ disc for comparison.

As soon as the ‘standard’ disc arrives, it will be ripped to my hard drive and given to Dan the same day, along with Geoff’s disc.

As Geoff requested, the only test results posted will be those he has requested.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

....Notcho Dawg, insisted Geoff's disc be first thoroughly cleaned according to the standards set forth in our Quality Management System manual.

I think I just heard Geoff hit the floor!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

You guys have your methods......

I have mine.

Just as valid.

I even have a special offer!
The 1st 20 forum members who send me their disc for my exclusive 'Bill on the Hill' Caninomatic Omni-Salivack Purification Process using verified 100% green technology will get it for free!
Regularly a $35 option, this IS the deal you have been waiting for!
Hurry, this offer has already expired!

But, that is not all!
Send me two discs & I will only charge $85 AND I'll throw in a free Caninomatron Super-PooPer Storage container guaranteed to to turn you lifeless, over-compressed, enhanced interrogation CD's into 'Audiophile' grade, reference material.
So easy to use!
After filling with the appropriate 'Enhancer' just drop your CD in and after two short weeks it will have all your audio friends so jealous you will probably never see them again!

Hurry, operators (my niece, actually) are standing by to take your orders!

So Michael, how about you send me some your stuff, too?

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

Will you accept whole collections? Hate to be greedy but for that kinda money, I'm in!

Bad recordings and all.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Is it too late to put in a request for another test parameter?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

rotflmao

The dog ate my homework.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

wkhanna wrote:

rotflmao

Or something....

:-)

Toledo wrote,

"Let's have some fun with this ... I think the assumption that cryo was a large part of the treatment is certainly valid."

Uh, let's try to keep up. I've been addressing many of the problems with CD playback on this forum for at least two months as well as various products of mine that address these problems. When you ass-u-me something you make an ass out of me and Uma Thurman.

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. ~ Old audiophile expression

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

To review old posts (on this thread and others) to nit pick.

Hey Bill,

Does the dbpoweramp ripper software do a two pass read and verify scan of the cd.

In other words, does the first pass read the cd and store to hard drive. The second pass would then read the cd again and verify the hard drive data against it.

Hi Toledo,
I am sure it does at least two passes.
I am not sure where the comparison/s take place.
Dan is my IT guru & computer audio engineer extraordinaire & he is the one who installed & configured the software.
So I will defer to him for the precise & accurate reply.

Otherwise, I suppose you can find the answer here with a little extra reading

https://sites.google.com/site/dbpowerampripping/

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

except at my casa....
hoping the 'standard' disc will arrive tomorrow.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

Different pressing plants, different material composition and, finally, different care for packing & handling may lead to a different BER on two copies of the same disk. To avoid this problem I did experiment the cryo treatment in a different way: I copied a very well recorded CD on my computer (Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio: Autumn In Seattle on FIM) using XLD set on "try until you get it right", then I frose the CD and copied it again. This allowed me to compare both copies on the fly using the computer as a source. Conclusions were funny: cryo-ing did nothing to the sound.
And now comes the surprise: I compared the rip logs for both version and guess what - the non-frozen CD was ripped at an average speed of 6.3x while after freezing the speed dropped to 3.8x. What does this mean? Well, simply that the unit has to re-read the information many time and "slow down" in order to get a perfect read-out.

OK, so what is the relevance of this finding? The read-until-right trick only works when ripping a CD. When playing it in a CD player you need the signal in real time, so it just looks the servo has more work on a cryo-ed CD. Eventually, the reading is not perfect so the interpolator has to fill in the blanks with a mathematical guesstimate. Yes, this will provide a "cleaner" sound but also one devoid of micro-dynamics and thus lacking timbral richness (or "wholeness", as Michael puts it).

iosiP wrote:

Different pressing plants, different material composition and, finally, different care for packing & handling may lead to a different BER on two copies of the same disk. To avoid this problem I did experiment the cryo treatment in a different way: I copied a very well recorded CD on my computer (Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio: Autumn In Seattle on FIM) using XLD set on "try until you get it right", then I frose the CD and copied it again. This allowed me to compare both copies on the fly using the computer as a source. Conclusions were funny: cryo-ing did nothing to the sound.
And now comes the surprise: I compared the rip logs for both version and guess what - the non-frozen CD was ripped at an average speed of 6.3x while after freezing the speed dropped to 3.8x. What does this mean? Well, simply that the unit has to re-read the information many time and "slow down" in order to get a perfect read-out.

OK, so what is the relevance of this finding? The read-until-right trick only works when ripping a CD. When playing it in a CD player you need the signal in real time, so it just looks the servo has more work on a cryo-ed CD. Eventually, the reading is not perfect so the interpolator has to fill in the blanks with a mathematical guesstimate. Yes, this will provide a "cleaner" sound but also one devoid of micro-dynamics and thus lacking timbral richness (or "wholeness", as Michael puts it).

This is not necessarily a very scientific approach as there are many variables to consider. It is easy to jump to conclusions if all variables are not considered. The absolute level of the CD transport can influence how much the CD wobbles and vibrates inside the transport while it is spinning thus influencing how much the laser servo mechanism has to work. The out of round condition of many CDs also influences and exacerbates how much wobble and vibration occurs. This out of round condition was the problem that the Audio Desk CD Improver (edge beveler) solved. Another variable is when the CD is cryo'd or frozen a haze often appears on the surface of the CD, that is not water vapor but something that had been absorbed into the polycarbonate material, probably mold release compound or some other chemical involved with the manufacturing process, it must be wiped off with a clean dry cloth, otherwise the haze will interfere with the laser reading the data. There are also time of day and weather conditions to consider and can explain differences in results of ANY experiment. How many audiophiles keep a log detailing everything involved with the experiment including all of the variables? For these reasons one must be careful not to generalize results of freezing and cryo too much when the results are negative. As has been documented by Stereophile magazine there are at least four reasons why audiophiles sometimes to not get (positive) results from certain tweaks. Keep in mind a great many audiophiles get very good results with both cryo and freezing so reports of negative results once in a blue moon might best be considered outliers or anomalies.

Pop Quiz: Can whatever else is in the cryo cooler or freezer along with the CD or whatever is being treated influence the sound?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Same out-of round, same wobbling, same everything, just a "before and after freezing" test.
But then, if "reports of negative results once in a blue moon might best be considered outliers or anomalies." can you be sure that the (very) best results are obtained in scientifically sound conditions? Have you ever questioned the way those tests are done, or are you nitpicking only when the results do not meet your dogma/expectations?
See, both Michael and I got the same results. Are we living under the same blue moon, and can you give us examples of what testing methods were used by those "many great" audiophiles that got positive results?

IosiP wrote,

"Same out-of round, same wobbling, same everything, just a "before and after freezing" test.
But then, if "reports of negative results once in a blue moon might best be considered outliers or anomalies." can you be sure that the (very) best results are obtained in scientifically sound conditions? Have you ever questioned the way those tests are done, or are you nitpicking only when the results do not meet your dogma/expectations? See, both Michael and I got the same results. Are we living under the same blue moon, and can you give us examples of what testing methods were used by those "many great" audiophiles that got positive results?"

You would have to believe in a conspiracy of the highest order if you think that two people, both of whom are inexperienced with the whole cryogenics and freezing thing. not to mention with the scientific method and all of the variables involved, who obtain negative results from their first outing amount s to more than a hill of beans compared to what 50,000 audiophiles who got positive results over the last what 20 years? and that all the manufacturers and cable companies likie Purist Audio and Shunyata, would be totally wrong about what they heard and developed products that actually hurt the sound. Now, that would be a pretty big conspiracy!

Cable companies using cryogenics (at least):

Purist Audio since 1995

Furutech

Stealth

VH Audio

Jena Labs

Ultimate Cables

Shunyata

Revelation Audio Labs

JW Audio

Townsend Audio

Voodoo Cables

Museatex

Blue Marble Audio Cables

Silversmith Audio

Neotech

Reference 3A

Meitner (EMM) Cables

Darwin Cables

Silent Source

CryoClear

CryoParts

Connex Audio

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Not sure why you quoted me Geoff (in your response to Costin) ... Or was this a Freudian slip that you consider anyone who has disagreed with you conspiracy theorists.

Edit: I see you have edited and removed the quote.

toledo wrote:

Not sure why you quoted me Geoff ... Or was this a Freudian slip that you consider anyone who has disagreed with you conspiracy theorists.

Let me think about it and I'll get back to you.

Geoff Kait
Machina Diabolical

Geoff,

I dont think you can extend the benefits of a tech to all its possible applications. Making the rationale that cryo benefits cables does not implicitly extend those benefits to cd treatment.

toledo wrote:

Geoff,

I dont think you can extend the benefits of a tech to all its possible applications. Making the rationale that cryo benefits cables does not implicitly extend those benefits to cd treatment.

OK, I can was philosophical, too. Making the rationale that cryo benefits cables doesn't implicitly imply that they DON'T extend to CDs. Especially in light of the fact we know they DO extend to razor blades, rifle barrels, nylon stockings, trumpets, golf balls and more to the point, to LPs, vacuum tubes, speaker crossovers, entire high end (read expensive!) CD players, DACs, speaker drivers, cables, connectors, bare wire, tonearms, turntable platters, threaded rods, nuts, washers, bolts, transformers, springs, headphones, etc. Besides, who would bet that the benefits DON'T extend to CDs when the odds are 50,000 to 2? Just because a coupla guys just getting their feet wet announce EUREKA!! IT DOESN 'T WORK is not necessarily anything to get all revved up about. This kind of thing happens all the time. No biggie.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Geoff

First off, if I were you I would consider not posting those company names unless you have approval from them to be used in your debating. You using them for a discussion like this may hurt their business since this is indeed Stereophile. I encourage you to give this some thought. This is not some random opinion forum even though some of this goes on here.

Second, I have in no way said that cryo treating is the same as freezer treating.

Third, I have been experimenting with Cryo ever since I got back from a visit with Postive Feedback in the 90's. So this is nothing new for this camper, just something I wanted refreshed on since you and May were talking about it. I'm one of those that covers my tracks over and over to be sure I am on solid ground. One thing I have learned over the years is how everything affects everything else and when I was seeing this talk about freezing being a miracle cure I wanted to find out if this was truly a discovery or simply something being push without a strong back bone like many high end audio things are. I wanted to find out if I missed something and was looking forward to if anything get on the freezing band wagon. You were pushing like this was a be all end all, and you were making it sound like if we didn't do this we were missing out on the recordings true abilities, so of course I wanted to revisit.

You said in a post earlier for me not to be a "worry wart" I think were your words, now I'm part of a couple of "guys". Your making me again into someone who is out to get you instead of someone who wants to give you my approval by trying your methods. I have never been an "out to get you" or anyone guy. I simply study the signal path and look for ways to improve the conditions of listening.

Fourth, I am a cable designer as well http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t73-mga-cable-accessories and have done cryo and freezing treatments on my cable. I found that I and my clients prefered heat and vibratory curing vs cryo for tuning. Mainly because we didn't want to start at an up shift in pitch, but all the way down to the bottom scale and work our way up. If others like something different we're cool with that, but I find that many music lovers like all that juicy stuff surrounding the instruments and not the squeeky clean sterile sound. Personally I don't think it's all that hard to get a squeezed sound, the trick is to get the whole picture and that's what we are after. The pace and movement of music is what we like along with being able to see everything in that stage and how big it is. If someone has not really listened to a big stage set free they are missing out on a whole-lot-a-fun.

But once again I want to say the freeze sound is something that many might like and if they do I'm all for their happiness.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

1. Your "scientific method" of proving cryo treatment works is essentially flawed since the CD you sent out for test was not only frozen but also treated in several more ways. So yes, it may sound better than the original but then no one can state the better sound comes from the cryo treatment, the paint applied to the edges or from any of the other modifications you used. One simple rule of testing is changing only one variable and examining the results, which your "10-treatment" CD does not allow.

2. Technically speaking a CD is a sandwich of poly-carbonate - aluminium (or silver, or gold) - poly-carbonate- lacquer (paint). When frozen, all these different materials contract differently and due to the extreme thinness of the reflective layer I expect it to develop micro-fissures that cannot do any good in the reading process.

3. Most unadvised people prefer a high-rate VBR MP3 recording to the high-res original. This is psycho-acoustically understandable since their auditory system has less information to analyse and thus gets a sensation of "cleaner" and "more focused" sound. So just be careful when you state that lots of "audiophiles" hear improvements after cryo-ing a CD. And BTW, there is also an expectation factor - or placebo effect - playing a part: now wouldn't it be nice if you could improve your musical experience at no cost, just placing your loved CDs for 48 hours between two slices of frozen sirloin?

Relax and (try to) get real,
Costin

iosiP wrote:

1. Your "scientific method" of proving cryo treatment works is essentially flawed since the CD you sent out for test was not only frozen but also treated in several more ways. So yes, it may sound better than the original but then no one can state the better sound comes from the cryo treatment, the paint applied to the edges or from any of the other modifications you used. One simple rule of testing is changing only one variable and examining the results, which your "10-treatment" CD does not allow.

2. Technically speaking a CD is a sandwich of poly-carbonate - aluminium (or silver, or gold) - poly-carbonate- lacquer (paint). When frozen, all these different materials contract differently and due to the extreme thinness of the reflective layer I expect it to develop micro-fissures that cannot do any good in the reading process.

3. Most unadvised people prefer a high-rate VBR MP3 recording to the high-res original. This is psycho-acoustically understandable since their auditory system has less information to analyse and thus gets a sensation of "cleaner" and "more focused" sound. So just be careful when you state that lots of "audiophiles" hear improvements after cryo-ing a CD. And BTW, there is also an expectation factor - or placebo effect - playing a part: now wouldn't it be nice if you could improve your musical experience at no cost, just placing your loved CDs for 48 hours between two slices of frozen sirloin?

Relax and (try to) get real,
Costin

I think you totally did not understand why I sent the treated CD out for testing. It had nothing at all to do with proving if cryo worked or not. Or with proving freezing worked or not. As I already pointed out myself how could you differentiate which treatment was responsible for either the measurement or the sound? Duh! You couldn't! So don't lecture me on the scientific method, I don't care if you are a PhD, which I actually don't believe anyway. Even in this case when you are talking about micro fissures you apparently have no idea what you're talking about. Micro fissures! That is SO FUNNY. All that scotch has given you micro fissures on your brain. Just like you don't know the difference between an electric field and a magnetic field. And you call yourself a PhD. The placebo effect?! The placebo effect is for suckers. That's the oldest scam in the business, perpetrated by angry, frustrated naysayers. Next you'll be touting the advantages of controlled blind testing. Take two placebos and see me in the morning.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

You mentioned the edge treating.

I know that people have used the color treatment on CD's for many years and I have had a little misfortune in this area as well. When the "green" treatment came out I gave it a go and thought that the CD's that were treated pitched upward so I decided not to pursue this after a few were done. Did it make a difference? Yes. Did I like it? No.

About two years ago I found a classical collection I was excited to score on. I drove out to meet the guy and picked up the CD's without even thinking to look, it was one of those great deals. I got home all bubbly until I opened up the box to find that all the collection was "green treated". My heart sunk. I found maybe 3 or 4 that I had copies of and did a listen between the two. Was not a fun night (;0

People who push treatments of any kind should really give it some heavy thought to what they are doing and remember that people might take their whole collection, thinking they are doing something good based on someones push, and end up ruining that collection. I find it so sad that people do hot rod testing instead of being careful and recommending caution for the listeners sake.

I'm sure some do this and enjoy the sound, but caution and being careful should be way up there on the list when someone is telling you that you have to do something. I speak as someone doing this very thing every day, and everytime I suggest a step I'm on pins and needles till I hear back cause I want to be so sure we are moving in the right direction for that listener. What I do is make something more flexible, but it would scare me to death if I was telling someone to go less flexible.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Quote:

The placebo effect?! The placebo effect is for suckers. That's the oldest scam in the business, perpetrated by angry, frustrated naysayers.

Geoff,

In all fairness, wasn't it you that introduced placebos to the forum not too long ago in the snake oil thread in the tweak forum?

Here's your quote -
" Pop quiz - Would you accept a placebo if it improved the sound"

Also, does anyone have access to research microscopes with enough power to see before and after affects of cryo treatment if anyone wishes to delve further into the actual physical changes. Just a thought...

Geoff

"I think you totally did not understand why sent the treated CD out for testing. It had nothing at all to do with proving if cryo worked or not."

what?

Why would you send a freezer treated CD out if it wasn't part of the test?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

But then it wouldn't be the first time, would it?
Took my placebos and had a good night of sleep, please try to do the same: after all, you're an old man and I would hate to cause you a stroke!

Michael wrote,

"People who push treatments of any kind should really give it some heavy thought to what they are doing and remember that people might take their whole collection, thinking they are doing something good based on someones push, and end up ruining that collection. I find it so sad that people do hot rod testing instead of being careful and recommending caution for the listeners sake."

Hey, that reminds me of the old Steppenwolf classic, Pusher . Lol

I suspect it would probably be more helpful if you realized that the sound of the CD is influenced by the color or colors used in making the label, that the color green around the outer edge may or may not work for a particular CD, it depends on several factors including the color of the label. For example, let's take the 1990s reissues of the Mercury Living Presence CDs of the famous classical pieces from the 59s and 60s. The labels of the Mercury CDs are all black and white and actually sound worse when the outer edge is painted green. However the color red, which ordinarily destroys the sound of most CDs used there works like a champ. Now, if you had all the time in the world and the patience of Job you would find out that things get pretty complicated with trying to color CDs because in order to get the best out of the particular CD a scheme of different colors must be employed. And that scheme must be arrived at by experimentation for EACH CD. I did not create reality, but reality can be revealed by much effort, as far as coloring CDs goes, anyway. If you don't have good luck with the color green perhaps try the color turquoise, that is a more universal color and more in line with the idea that you are trying to cut back on the scattered background laser light, much of which is RED, even though the laser is infrared with wavelength of 780 nm. The invisible portion of the scattered laser light, 700 nm and up, is a more difficult problem since it doesn't respond to color. So, anyway, that's the main idea, but probably not the only thing going on. It's complicated. The color black is reserved for the inner edge, but never for the outer edge or label side. The color violet (purple) is very nice around the outer edge either by itself or along with turquoise. I also like to color the blank narrow band on the data side just before the start of data. You can experiment with a number of colors here, colors like violet, orange, turquoise, perhaps other colors will suit your particular tastes. But, as I said, it's complicated, and there are a whole lot of permutations and combinations if you want to be serious about it and "give thought to what you are doing," as you say.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo wrote:

Quote:

The placebo effect?! The placebo effect is for suckers. That's the oldest scam in the business, perpetrated by angry, frustrated naysayers.

Geoff,

In all fairness, wasn't it you that introduced placebos to the forum not too long ago in the snake oil thread in the tweak forum?

Here's your quote -
" Pop quiz - Would you accept a placebo if it improved the sound"

Also, does anyone have access to research microscopes with enough power to see before and after affects of cryo treatment if anyone wishes to delve further into the actual physical changes. Just a thought...

Yes, there is much background on cryogenics both from labs engaged in cryo and NASA and elsewhere and in the literature. Cryo has been used for treating audio items for at least twenty years and has been well understood in terms of the physical process that occurs for much longer. I cannot remember exactly when Ferrari and maybe others began using cryo for race engine parts but it was quite a while ago. If you google cryogenics microscope you might hit pay dirt, who knows?

If I used the word placebo here it was most likely in a joking way. Placebo effect, like expectation bias, is a cognitive bias that naysayers frequently use to attempt to discredit audio tweaks, claiming that golden eared audiophiles are tricked into thinking tweaks work. Of course, there is such a thing as the placebo effect, but suggesting that the placebo effect explains all tweaks is a little silly, don't you think?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamika

michael green wrote:

Geoff

"I think you totally did not understand why sent the treated CD out for testing. It had nothing at all to do with proving if cryo worked or not."

what?

Why would you send a freezer treated CD out if it wasn't part of the test?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I treat CDs in many different ways routinely. I suggested sending a highly treated CD in for testing just to see if a highly treated CD had a snowball's chance in hell of measuring better than an untreated CD. Especially with respect to Dynamic Range. Remember Dynamic Range? How soon they forget. So of course I would use as many treatments as I could to prove that point. I already explained I chose to freeze the CD rather than cryo it because of the long delay that would have been required to send the CD off to the cryo lab, then wait a week for the thermal shock to wear off. That's at least two weeks. But I could have just as easily not used freezing or cryo. Or I could have limited the treatments to say Dark Matter or coloring the edges, whatever. As I also already explained the measurements will not be able to identify or isolate which treatments are responsible for improved performance, if any, or ascribe percentages to the tweaks. Nor would a listener be able to identify which treatments are responsible for differences in sound, if any. So, from my perspective the test will simply be some evidence whether or not CD treatments can provide better measured performance and whether they sound better in listening tests. But it is not intended to prove whether any particular tweak I employ works or not. Plus there are some tweaks on the CD I sent to Bill that will most likely NOT show up on measurements but should show up on listening tests, if you get my drift (which I suspect you probably don't).

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica