I am a sound engineer, and the same thing happens in this profession.. particularly with DAW upgrades. Buy Sequoia for 3 grand, pay a lot more a year later for "upgrades"

it isnt right..

I can't think of a single McIntosh product with a mk.II designation.

I prefer an approach that says the manufacturer is relying on a specific concept for their products. To that end I would suggest McIntosh is one of the most reliable brands you can find. In over sixty years of production the "McIntosh Sound" has remained remarkably consistent from product to product and model to model. My feeling is I might not agree with a manaufacturer's decided upon approach to sound quality but I have to agree with any manufacturer who builds a line of products that has a consitent house sound. That strikes me as a designer or group of designers who have a singular idea of what music sounds like to their ears rather than a commitee who will decide what will sell in a given price range. Can a company with 36 models of speakers ranging in price from $199 per pair to $1699 per pair actually have a reason for buying the next model up in the line?

In general I have no real problems with a designer building an evolutionary product. My original VPI HW19 was a "tweener" with a mix of mk.II and mk.III pieces when it was purchased. My Audible Illusions pre amp was another tweener with a mix of parts that sold as a earlier model but would come in later as a full blown updated model. My McIntosh power amps use 95% of the same tube layout/circuitry as the model that was above them and beneath them in the model line those few years in the early 1960's (and, to be fair, in the current 2008 version of the MC275).

I have problems to some extent with a company such as Linn who has built the "same" table for nearly four decades but built to a level where the original can be "updated" to the new. What compromises are being made there? And while the model remains the same an original LP12 would need substantial upgrades at a very substantial cost and disposal of parts to actaully go from a base line original LP12 to a modern full blown model. There would be virtually nothing left of the original table if someone tried to do such an update. Why not just update the model designation to a "LPwhatever"? Then Linn could introduce the "retro" LP12 for all those who want to relive their youthful frivolity of disposing of their turntable in 1982.

I admit it does color my experience/

In the early 90's, I was system building and ended up with a PS Lambda transposrt. Soon thereafter it bacame the Lamba 2 and I shot the cash and shipped the unit. Shortly thereafter PS Audio wents tits up and there was no service for the Lambda at all.

At the same time, I bought Audio Alchemy gear, the DDE 3.0 and PTI Pro. Soon, the DTI Pro went to the Pro 32, but the new model wouldn't take the AES/EBU input from my transport. So, I decided I'd cascade the DTI Pro into the Pro 32. Then there was an update for the DDE 3.0, and off it went. Then, Audio Alchemy went tits up. (I had even purchased their powered Coax lines.)

Same period, I bouth a Krell KRC, which soon required morer cash to update it to the H.D. version.

Also that coulpe of years, I got my Apogee Studio Grands.

All of these procucts seemed to come from going concern companies who were part of the mainstream.

Shortly after buying from PS Audio, Audio Alchemy, and Apogee, I was left to fend for myself with regard to finding service or product support.

At least Krell still exists.

For a while, I was tempted to extort money from Hi Fi manufacturers by sending a letter saying that if they didn't send cash, I'd buy their product and put them out of business.

(Crap, I just realized we are on General Rants and Raves. Can someone spare us the inevitable Legacy/AVA busllshit, just this once?)

So, now, would I buy from the new PS Audio, AV 123, or Perpetual Technologies?

Not if I can help it.

I do get a little ticked off when I see a mafucaturer basically blow off any of the gear he's made in the past and pop up like some audio ingenue with his new product in hand, whispering sweet audio nothings in hopes we will believe him that 'this time, it's different.'

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The point is not that products evolve but that they evolve to quickly which says either they (the manufacturers) missed something the first time around or they have an internal policy of planned obsolence.

Thats why the gon is one of my fav places to buy.

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In defence of manufacturers, in some cases the rise of new technology (SACD/DVD-A/BLU-RAY) or technology that is half baked HDMI (1.0,1.1,1.2,1.3,1.3a) means that they must release new products with similar specs as the prior model.

Yup. Moore's law still holds.

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The point is not that products evolve but that they evolve to quickly which says either they (the manufacturers) missed something the first time around or they have an internal policy of planned obsolence.

That statement borders on the dupian in it's blinkered myopia. If that were true, we'd still be burning wood fires around the cave, running down large mammals on foot, judging the time of the season by the position of the stars all the while communicating by way of drumbeats.

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Planned obsolence prays on the insecurity of many audiophiles. We have enough trouble selecting our components already without having our purchases rendered obsolete in our minds every 3 or 6 months.

Sir, develop a reference for what live music sounds like to you and you'll have far fewer qualms about judging any audio system. In my experience, anyone with such a reference who still has insecurities about selecting components has much more deeply seated issues than any audio journal can present.

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Dont take my "Mark II" comment to literally... it might get a new model number but is a evolution of a prior model.

There wouldn't seem to be very many ways to take your "MkII" comment other than literally.

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And what does "judging any audio system" have to do with my post where I related to you that one of the considerations I use in my purchases is whether the manufacturer exhibits a tendancy for frequent model releases of products in the same product category?

Well, let's see. You could take that as advice on how to deal with your insecurities about judging audio components. Or shouldn't I take your "insecurities" comment too seriously either? Hmm, that would mean I have virtually nothing of your's that I can take as serious.

If you have as certain a reference for music as the designer of the product in question, your insecurities about buying such a product should be non-existent. If you are certain of what you say, you shouldn't be easily insulted.

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For a while, I was tempted to extort money from Hi Fi manufacturers by sending a letter saying that if they didn't send cash, I'd buy their product and put them out of business.

LOL Thanks for the typically Buddha-humorous, yet pertinent post on the subject at hand.

My recurring problem hasn't been obsolescence as much as equipment failure. I live in the coastal void of NorCal/SouthOre, so there are no manufacturer's reps or stores. Everything is done by post. Sometimes I get a replacement part that I hopefully can install. Sometimes the whole unit has to be replaced. Bummer.

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Sir, develop a reference for what live music sounds like to you and you'll have far fewer qualms about judging any audio system.

Uh oh, another hopelessly delusional twit.

I'm with you in principal but Krell hardly ever comes out with "new and improved". Every once in a great while they may come out with a new line or a next generation, but that is after years of a stable product line. Even then the "old" product is considered a classic worthy of solid resale or just a long life in one's system.

I think Musical Fidelity is more appropriate as I see something new at least every quarter, and as we know, they aren't cheap.

By and large I'd like to stick to a company who has a track record. That being said, some older ones may tend to get a bit stale in their ability to think creatively over time.

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Sir, develop a reference for what live music sounds like to you and you'll have far fewer qualms about judging any audio system.

Uh oh, another hopelessly delusional twit.

So what is a good reference point ?

Ive found live music has served me well as a reference point, it would be nice to have the benefit of being in the studio for the recording of all my favourite albums but as i wasnt ive no idea what they are supposed to sound like.

I do however know what live music sounds like, both amplified and non amplified.

Alan

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Sir, develop a reference for what live music sounds like to you and you'll have far fewer qualms about judging any audio system.

Uh oh, another hopelessly delusional twit.

And they say the Amish just don't get irony!

"Better a witty tool than a wooly tit"

I too like to see longevity in a manufacturers product line. It is a fine line though, when does longevity become a lack of innovation?

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But as part of the audition process for which products fit into my view of what a reference should be, I consider model longevity.

That's fine if that works for you. However, I think you are misjudging some manufacturers and possibly relegating others to "unconsiderable" status based either on misinformation or preconceptions based upon irrational biases. As I said, Mac doesn't build mkII versions and there is typically a few years in the lifespan of every model Mac introduces. Mac is not as evolutionary as, say, VPI or Wilson but they build a product that grows from their existing models. That they continue to improve their product line with the progression of time while their vintage designs grow in value is, I think, an excellent way to do business.

It would be difficult IMO for anyone who has spent a decade in this hobby to have been fortunate enough to have missed something that didn't pan out as expected. I'm still a bit peeved about SACD and universal players not to mention the $2k LaserDisc player that's occupying space in my room. But those are more the issues of the industry rather than issues with any one company.

High end audio has always had its fair share of designers who were excellent at putting together a product but not so great at keeping a company together. Sometimes the fault is not with the designer's business acumen but in their trust of others to do the right thing. You live and learn and try not to repeat the same dumb mistake too many times in too short a time span. There are worse things in life than than using an obsolete audio device as a room divider.

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Sir, develop a reference for what live music sounds like to you and you'll have far fewer qualms about judging any audio system.

Uh oh, another hopelessly delusional twit.

And they say the Amish just don't get irony!

"Better a witty tool than a wooly tit"

Yet without elenchus elucidation what is left but mundane meanderings?

"If a man is proud of his wealth, he should not be praised until it is known how he employs it."
-- Socrates

(again, very good young man)

"Shall we play a game?"
-- WOPR

"Is the tool yet fit to be wit for the fool? For if he's not then it's back to that tit"

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Sir, develop a reference for what live music sounds like to you and you'll have far fewer qualms about judging any audio system.

Uh oh, another hopelessly delusional twit.

So what is a good reference point ?

Ive found live music has served me well as a reference point, it would be nice to have the benefit of being in the studio for the recording of all my favourite albums but as i wasnt ive no idea what they are supposed to sound like.

I do however know what live music sounds like, both amplified and non amplified.

Alan

Since rvance has me "busted" I shall herefor be brief:

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...=true#Post51224

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"Shall we play a game?"
-- WOPR

"I can't let you do that, Scott"
-HAL

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"Shall we play a game?"
-- WOPR

"I can't let you do that, Scott"
-HAL

"Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind."
-- William Shakespeare

"HAL, I won't argue with you anymore!"

"HAL Sing it for me"

I react badly to patronizing. Jan Vigne's remark "A noobie who needs to hear a tale" in another thread set me off and I chased him here for a pound of flesh. Sorry for soiling your thread guys.

-out

No problem. Trust me, we all understand.

It is very gracious of you to acknowledge this as you have.

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I react badly to patronizing. Jan Vigne's remark "A noobie who needs to hear a tale" in another thread set me off and I chased him here for a pound of flesh. Sorry for soiling your thread guys.

?!, ??!! and ???!!! Your bio says it all, young man. You have so far not proven yourself to be a David nor an acrobat and your pedal skills seem to result in mostly self inflicted wounds. If with 55 posts on this forum you resent being called a "noobie" or you find it patronizing, you might want to get a backbone before you begin practicing any of your other skills. This is hardly a forum for the faint of heart. The remark was meant as a mere introduction to a story I have told several times on this and other forums. Your skin would appear to be far too thin to engage in serious battle when there are so many skirmishes breaking out on a regular schedule. Don't go looking for issues where none exist and you don't need to be chasing me down for even an ounce of retribution. We'll get along if we get along. If you've already decided otherwise, let me know and I'll be on the lookout for threads were you want to sling stones.

Oh, and watch out for Elk. He'll insult anyone at the drop of an adjective.

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I react badly to patronizing. Jan Vigne's remark "A noobie who needs to hear a tale" in another thread set me off and I chased him here for a pound of flesh. Sorry for soiling your thread guys.

-out

Scott- You have nothing to prove to anyone here! You will find, however, that some who take the most exception to perceived insults are the first and best at dishing them out until their exchanges descend into hellish grotesqueries of psychotic angst.

Which just makes everything a lot funner, eh?

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...get a backbone...
...faint of heart...
Your skin would appear to be far too thin...

"Argumentum ad hominem is the last shelter of a cornered demagogue.."

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If you've already decided otherwise, let me know and I'll be on the lookout for threads were you want to sling stones.

Looks to me like you have already made that decision.

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Oh, and watch out for Elk. He'll insult anyone at the drop of an adjective.

I've read many of his posts and have yet to see even a hint of this. However, it does apply to you quite well.

Wouldn't it be fun if this forum were more fun? So why constantly go looking for insults? The idea of any forum is to discuss opinions openly and forthrightly. At some point someone might actually disagree with you or have a different opinion than your own. How horrible would that be?! You might learn something new or you might convince someone else to do more research into a topic. What a calamity that would be!

If everyone on this forum gets insulted when anyone disagrees with their opinion to the point of chasing people down or holding grudges from thread to thread, then the fun just comes to a screeching halt, doesn't it? If all that can be posted in this forum are the negative remarks about cables, analog, cost of products, etc., the ol' I-IV-V routine with a turnaround, there's no fun for anyone. This is supposed to be enjoyable and not a contest to see who can wet the tree the highest. If you have nothing more to do than start another anti-cable thread or go in search of an insult that doesn't exist, then you should rethink why you are here and just who you are trying to impress.

We all get along when we decide to get along. Seems simple. Appears to be hard. That's too bad. There are some very bright people who frequent this forum. There are too, too many who have left and will never come back to this forum. This could be the best high end audio forum on the web instead of a forum dedicated to being so negative about everything audio and so petty that any comment becomes an insult in search of an escalation.

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Oh, and watch out for Elk. He'll insult anyone at the drop of an adjective.

I've read many of his posts and have yet to see even a hint of this.

I'm sure this is needless to mention, but I have to say that Elk is a true gentleman in this forum. Ever since I joined this forum, he was unfailingly encouraging & kind.

Scott - by the way, I went to Johns Hopkins a while back. HATED the Baltimore experience... ended up finishing at Columbia instead.

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You will find, however, that some who take the most exception to perceived insults are the first and best at dishing them out until their exchanges descend into hellish grotesqueries of psychotic angst.

Yeess... and now it looks like the hound has turned into the fox.

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Which just makes everything a lot funner, eh?

I has been fun with you. My guess is that others will not be as adept.

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Looks to me like you have already made that decision.

Sorry you feel that way, young man. There's no need for that approach and it doesn't make this more fun for anyone.

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The idea of any forum is to discuss opinions openly and forthrightly. At some point someone might actually disagree with you or have a different opinion than your own. How horrible would that be?! You might learn something new or you might convince someone else to do more research into a topic. What a calamity that would be!

If everyone on this forum gets insulted when anyone disagrees with their opinion...

Since you don't understand Latin and seem to be too lazy to look it up, I'll explain it to you:

It is one thing to argue against an idea and quite another to attack the arguer.

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...chasing people down or holding grudges from thread to thread

Now, who is chasing whom?

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This could be the best high end audio forum on the web instead of a forum dedicated to being so negative about everything audio and so petty that any comment becomes an insult in search of an escalation.

How do you explain your negativity in your last few posts?

"To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

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Looks to me like you have already made that decision.

Sorry you feel that way, young man. There's no need for that approach and it doesn't make this more fun for anyone.

Least of all you.

"All men can see the tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."
-- SUN TZU

I will accept your retreat as my victory and further engagement will cease.

Your call.

Amusing choice of quotes, Scott.

Back on topic:

I dislike quickly evolving products as it does beg the question as to how much work was initially put into the design.

However, some manufacturers appear to come up with an idea, make a limited number based on what they expect to sell, and then move on to another idea. This appears to be what Msuical Fidelity does.

I don't find this to be a problem, rather I find it fun. They are always up to something. I don't think this speaks poorly of them.

However, others seem to have another take on this. Let's use them as an example, not to bash the company, but as an exemplar practitioner. What is "wrong" with what Musical Fidelity does?

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I will accept your retreat as my victory and further engagement will cease.

Your call.

You may proceed to congratulate yourself. You won a non-existent game.

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I dislike quickly evolving products as it does beg the question as to how much work was initially put into the design.

The effort put into an intial design is, IMO, not directly related to the time span between "evolutions" of a product. Various manufacturers work at different rates due to their production facilities. Only a handful of electronics manufacturers and only a few speaker manufacturers produce their entire product line in house. Few of these manufacturers have engineers and creative personell who sit on their hands while a new product is being readied for introduction. What you might be overlooking is the time span required to bring a product to market as a viable entry into the competitive world of high end audio.

There can be no generalized guess as to just how long it might take to get a pre amp, digital source or loudspeaker from the drafting table to the sales floor. Possibly, some of the forum members with manufacturing experience could give some input on their experiences with the process.

However, even without delays due to subcontractor mistakes or lack of delivery of promised goods I would expect a good six months or more to pass while prototypes and changes are worked out in the preproduction process before the group arrives at a finished product. Considering the past history of high end audio over the last few decades, quite a bit can change in six month's time. If a subcontractor suggests a way to build a product better or cheaper or new materials are made available to the manufacturer, the process can change from an on-time schedule to one that runs well over what was expected. Waiting for the next product cycle can mean disaster for a high end manufacturer.

If you'll remember the interview with Lew Johnson that ran in Stereophile not that far back, the designers at CJ are constantly experimenting and listening for ways to improve their products. A small circuit change might result in an appreciable improvement in sound quality or reliability. Wouldn't you want that improvement in the product you purchase? If that change is the result of ongoing tests and experiments, wouldn't you want to own the best sounding product you can at the time of purchase?

If such a change occurs while the product is in preproduction stages, the manufacturer could easily decide to introduce the existing design rather than scrap six months worth of investment which would only raise the price of the final product. Therefore, a mkII designation and an upgrade would be one of the very few options available to the manufacturer.

As to what is wrong with MF's approach to product, I don't know. Within the high end community there would appear to be numerous opinions of MF's intent and motivations. There seems to be no disagreement MF is an iconoclastic company.

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I will accept your retreat as my victory and further engagement will cease.

Your call.

You may proceed to congratulate yourself. You won a non-existent game.

Who said anything about a game? These are your words:

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Your skin would appear to be far too thin to engage in serious battle

My quest as regards you has been to expose hypocrisy. Your very own words have proved worthy enough.

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Who said anything about a game?

Ehhhh ... you did.

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... further engagement will cease.

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My quest as regards you has been to expose hypocrisy.

Are you done now?

Or do you have something to actually contribute to this thread?

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Who said anything about a game?

Ehhhh ... you did.

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... further engagement will cease.

Again your words

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...engage in serious battle...

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My quest as regards you has been to expose hypocrisy.

Are you done now?

"Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war..."
-- William Shakespeare

Concede defeat now or prepare to be destroyed.

Again, your call.

Oh, goody, you own a copy of Bartletts's Book of Quotations! Check page 138.

OK, you have nothing of value to contribute. That's the same as everyone else who's shown up here all full of themself.

Your "game" is boring not to mention played by you under your own ever changing rules of engagement. You ignore the very groundplan you laid out in an earlier post and then call me a hypocrit! That too is the same as all the rest who have come "herefore".

You are playing crazy eights with a marked deck and you expect me to go along with this scheme?!

Do you seriously believe you are the first pinball wizard wannabee who has shown up on this forum? Son, once you fart and you no longer have enough gas to keep your ears apart the game is over. I prefer to be upwind of you when that finally happens.

Find someone else to play with. I don't beat up little children. Go take on upd, he's everyone's target and most people would mistake him for a three year old.

If you have something of value to add, you are free to do so. Otherwise, you are correct, you have soiled this thread. Please, go spread your wisdom on a more deserving lot.

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Who said anything about a game?

Ehhhh ... you did.

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... further engagement will cease.

Again your words

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...engage in serious battle...

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My quest as regards you has been to expose hypocrisy.

Are you done now?

"Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war..."
-- William Shakespeare

Concede defeat now or prepare to be destroyed.

Again, your call.

Okay. What is this, Dungeons & Dragons convention? Simmer down, guys, it's making you talk funny.

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Oh, goody, you own a copy of Bartletts's(sic) Book of Quotations! Check page 138.

Actually I just Google. Quotation helps to convey a message more succinctly. After all "brevity is the soul of wit". The hard part is knowing which one to use and when to use it.

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OK, you have nothing of value to contribute. That's the same as everyone else who's shown up here all full of themself.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You seem hell bent on making things difficult for newcomers. As a senior member you should be taking the initiative to make them feel welcome. Instead you take pot shots and make snide remarks.

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Your "game" is boring not to mention played by you under your own ever changing rules of engagement.

You continue to want to call this a game. So be it. This is a game. A very serious game and not one you want to loose.

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You ignore the very groundplan you laid out in an earlier post

Groundplan? Ah, game plan? You have much to learn about the Art Of War.

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and then call me a hypocrit(sic)! That too is the same as all the rest who have come "herefore".

I have not called you a hypocrite. It is my stated quest to expose that but your own words betray you in this matter.

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You are playing crazy eights with a marked deck and you expect me to go along with this scheme?!

This is your house of cards. But I wouldn't call them marked I would say they have been defaced.

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Son, once you fart and you no longer have enough gas to keep your ears apart the game is over.

Wow, now that is profound. So you are going wait around until I pass gas and the call it quits? OK... Wait... Ahh... There you go. See ya.

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Find someone else to play with.

Whats wrong you going to cry...

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Go take on upd, he's everyone's target and most people would mistake him for a three year old.

Not any longer. You have stepped into that role. I would say it fits you nicely.

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If you have something of value to add, you are free to do so. Otherwise, you are correct, you have soiled this thread.

On this I agree. I would have liked for this end earlier. returnstackerror I humbly apologize to you and everyone else who has had to endure this.

Ok, Takes two to tango, your turn.

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Please, go spread your wisdom on a more deserving lot.

See now here you go again. You complain more about how, what, when and why someone posts than anyone else on this forum. Maybe It's time for you to take a chill pill. If you can't, why don't you leave?

Anyone for a vote?

So, back when we were talking about the topic, I think someone mentioned "house sound" and I like that notion.

Same goes for wine, especially champagne.

I do think there is a bonus acquired via longevity that makes for an audiophile being able to come back to a manufacturer based on "house sound."

For me and Krell, it was always sort of an iron fist in a velvet glove sort of control and detail. For Lyra cartridges, it has been 'capturing fleeting-ness' (pardon my own bastardization of the idea of what they are about,) for Esoteric, it is about 'properness.'

Regardless of my dumb ass attempts to sum up a manufacturer in a one or two word phrase, there is a bonus associated with being familiar with how a manufactturer seems to hear things.

I bet other will have examples of house sounds, too.

For moi, that's a big part of the fun. Figuring out how the makers of gear hear things and how that compares to how I hear things!

ok scott, quit baiting jan. you boys play nice now.

returnstackerror -

I don't have a lot of money to spend and when looking for stereo equipment I agonize over it for a very long time. I would be very wary of a manufacturer that has a history of coming out with a "flagship" and 6 months later has another and another and so on...

electronics are marked up beyond belief and aren't something with a lot of resale value.

Once bitten twice shy

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electronics are marked up beyond belief ...

Awwwwwww ... no! Not again.

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returnstackerror -

electronics are marked up beyond belief and aren't something with a lot of resale value.

Once bitten twice shy

I agree. I always buy used. At least that way, I can pretty much sell the stuff without taking a mega hit.

Not again! Not again! Not again!!!

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Not again! Not again! Not again!!!

"Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more..."

Jan

(just kidding)