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geoffkait
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Data analysis vs subjective analysis

Michael, my analysis of the Official Dynamic Range Database is not intended to be a subjective comparison or a personal subjective comparison of media. It is what it is. My comments are simply intended to generalize the data contained in the Dynamic Range Database, especially the ironic twist that in reality CD dynamic range is not all that it's cracked up to be, not by a long shot.

The data contained in the database is actually more comprehensive and more revealing than I suspect most folks realize, if they have even heard of the Official Dynamic Range Database in the first place. By the way, have you seen the Official Dynamic Range Database? Do you use the. Database when you look for the best media for a particular recording? Or when looking for say the CD issue with the highest dynamic range? Or are you not really as interested in dynamic range as much as other audio parameters? It's OK if you're not familiar with the dynamic range database or if you consider dynamic range just another audio parameter and that there's nothing wrong with minimizing the influence of dynamic range on listening preferences.

Finally, one reason why I point out that vinyl generally is the preferred medium, at least according to the data provided in the Official Dynamic Range Database, when you wish to select the recording medium with the highest dynamic range, is that we have been led to believe that digital technology is light years ahead of analog for the parameter Dynamic Range. Maybe others, but I'm focusing on dynamic range only here. Redbook CDs have from the very beginning promoted as inherently providing dynamic ranges on the order of 20 dB higher than the best analog. You know, 90 dB dynamic range and 90 dB Signal to Noise Ratio. Compressed that to what, 65 dB or 70 dB for turntables.

Yes I've had very good turntable system as I've detailed on this forum. Shall I refresh your memory. You know, Maplenoll air bearing everything turntable with special 50 lb platter and modded 57 Quads. I should also take a moment to mention I have access to a quarter million dollar vinyl system not too far from here, one that I will actually be listening to one day very soon, and have heard many many times over the past twenty five years, you know, for reference. Footnote: would you believe at one point when I started out in high end audio lo these many years ago many of my customers had $60,000 turntables?

If one wishes to subjectively analyze any audio medium, be it hi res, cassette, vinyl, Redbook, whatever, or compare and contrast various media in a rational, organized and foolproof way look no further than the audio parameter matrix I provided on this very forum, was it last month? Now folks can take the guesswork out of subjective listening tests. Have you not been reading my posts?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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been reading everyone

Hi Geoff

I've been reading almost everyone as I get a chance. In reading you I have taken into account that you haven't had a turntable system for quite some years now, can you supply a date please of the Table/Quad system? From my reading (and I could be wrong) you refer to that system as, well in the past, before your fulton system.

Yes, I'm pretty up on the DRD but as pointed out some time ago by various sources on various audio forums including pro, this database has not past a clear bill of health as far as testing practices. I've personally experienced taking several copies of the same recordings with the same numbers even, to find that each one sounded different from the next even based on duplication run. I happen to have one cued as we speak.

If you could for the readers, please give the testing proceedure of the DRD so they may be able to see how these tests are performed.

"If one wishes to subjectively analyze any audio medium, be it hi res, cassette, vinyl, Redbook, whatever, or compare and contrast various media in a rational, organized and foolproof way look no further than the audio parameter matrix I provided on this very forum, was it last month?"

Could you please link to this for us and give your personal current testing equipment list?

thanks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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What's the difference?

I prefer not to engage in this sort of childish behavior you seem to be so enamored of, you know, trying to get all the details and dates so you can come back and jump on me with some ridiculous reason not to like the answer. Save the drama for yo mamma. We've been through all this already, anyway, ad infinitum. If you can't keep up with the conversation, please butt out.

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

michael green
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then don't

I don't see anyone asking you to engage in anything, geoff. I think most of us simply ask for others to actually have audio systems when talking audio. Likewise if talking about testing share yours.

I don't see any reason for you to get upset when someone ask you about your personal systems and real experience, especially as you say yourself, your practices have been in question at least since 08 on audio forums, including this one. From what I have read here the OP was giving some opinions and info based on his knowledge and point of view and was interested in seeing other points of view. As for myself, I was interested in others personal experience on this topic or any others here.

You don't like the fact that others are actively involved in this hobby from a doing point of view and I think that has been established and we accept your comments for what they are, a guy who hasn't an in-room system to talk about and reference. I say, no biggie as long as the readers are reminded that your point of view is really not based on your personal observations.

I am glad however you have decided to put the childish behavior in the past. I think you will find more taking you serious without the whole trolling gig.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
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Re

michael:

I know you've enjoyed a high level of success with the magnavox CD player.. Have you Listened to audio servers / transports in your work yet?

As is now obvious by my multiple threads and posts, I am having the best times in this hobby to date in seriously tuning my own music server and have recently surpassed my NAD 516 and Rega P1 in performance. I have a few more tweaks yet up my sleeve too!

I also am very lucky to have found an area in high end audio where I can directly leverage my expertise and approach tuning from a very different and new angle.

After I figure this media server/ digital transport out, I would like to move on to what I would call advanced room tuning; which is your expertise. For now, I am lucky enough to have a room with no bad issues, and have dialed in my speaker positions and listening chair... And use your wooden tuning blocks successfully under my amp; which after trial and error with my other components, yield noticeable improvements...such as deeper bass and slightly warmer sound.

Best Regards,

Ron

geoffkait
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See, you're doing it again

Just another snippy remark from Mr. Green, the purveyor of audio nervosa. If you can't keep up with the conversation butt out. I described my Maplenoll turntable system in detail on at least two previous occasions. I'm not going to repeat myself further just because you cant keep up.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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no biggie geoff, yes Ron

No Biggie geoff, just a reminder that we are talking in the present mostly here and keeping the distant past in relevance, seeing that change is an on-going issue here, and I don't want readers to think that what you are saying about that particular system is within the last 10 or so years, but more in your memories of such.

Hi Ron, the answer is yes & no, and this was talked about on TuneLand, but at the time I was about to dive in with both ears, I was pulled back by the Maggie out performing the supplied units at that time. Jumping in at improving 2nd or 3rd place was not going to work for me while designing a new speaker line, which requires all hands on deck. Saying this, the reference system in San Diego is almost completely server based. The Chicago system started as server based and has gone back to CD, I hear that might change. The La Crosse system is mostly Vinyl with some high end CDP's.

The plan was to make the jump to server here this coming up Jan-March but I'm not sure that is going to happen. Maybe in part but not full blown. To give an idea though of my thinking, I have been gathering Cassette decks and will more than likely be bringing back on board some R2R's. Tables, I'm not sure. Turntables can lead to a road of never ending variables that I'm not sure I have time for. Harold might have to take tables. When I go full blast servers I want to be able to have my CDP, Cassette, R2R chops down to compare against. In making my move from one source to the next it's a pretty involved process. So while I'm saying I have backed away a couple of times while getting my toes damp the fun & full jump is yet to come.

I'm also days away from my full blown all out reviewing of the Portugal based amps from Audolici, which I'm told and heard briefly could be a main player among the tube big boys. If this is indeed true and they mate well with the custom surrounding toys we have planned it will mean Class A performance we can offer under 10 Grand. I have not fully endorsed an ultimate High End Audio amp in many years so this is a big deal for me. There are a lot of products out there that I like and enjoy tuning, but to have one in my hands that brings back the true classic tube sound, has not been done in a long time.

So many new parts have been rushed through in this industry over the last 15 or so years some of the music has been left on the floor and the reviewers seem to be passing by without taking the time to go back and listen to what got us here in the way of tubes. Many speakers and drivers in general have been made to try to fix the sound some of the tube designs, that appeared on the scene starting some 20 years ago, have introduced but not truly been solved. If I can, I would like to be a part of bringing that magical sound back to the front & center.

So servers?

Hmmm...if among the projects it fits into the scheme of things, OK, but personally I'm really happy with sources and think there are other areas that need to be dealt with in order to get some things back on track. One of these is the whole discrete de-bunkle plus some of the over looked classic sounds. In other words I feel bad that this industry on many fronts have turned into an ear bleeding event when it should easily be one that provides hours of listening instead of these short burst. Something is wrong in the hobby when people only listen 20 minutes at a time. What's worse is the hobby not knowing who to blame or mis-blaming parts of the industry that are a small part at best of the problem.

Servers aren't going any where, but the audiophiles are.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Testing, testing

Mr. Green, I've forgotten more than you actually know now in the present. You know, you're supposed to learn as you get older. I frankly don't see any evidence of your actually being able to learn new things. Just based on what you say yourself you don't even know how to conduct proper tests for capacitors. I on the other hand was the government appointed witness for testing on a billion dollar program. Hel-loo!

As they say in golf, never up, never in. ;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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two different worlds

Hi geoff

We're just from two different worlds is all. If someone feels they gain from the posts you make more power to them and you as far as that goes. I'm cut from a different cloth. Everytime I enter any one of my listening rooms it's entering a new class room and for the next however long I am the student and the music and tuning tools are my teachers. I understand your point of view that having stereos many years ago made an impression on you, and it's a cool thing to think back on the good ole days, all of us do it. For me however looking back is just that. It's a building block on one hand, but on the other only a step toward what is better about today, and what is even better about this listening session coming up.

You can do your own thing, no problem, but for me listening to a portable cassette player and not having an in-room system for all those years sounds depressing. Frankly so does your tone as it continues to show disrespect for those who embrace the hobby now. I don't want to talk to you about my systems now, knowing you can only talk about your systems 20 years ago. Sorry, that's my take.

Like I've said, if people dig your posting cool, but for me and my friends it's as boring as black & white movies. Their cool cause we can pull them up from the archives, but their not new releases, and rarely classics. Their something run on the off channels, far away from prime time. Fun to visit, but we don't live there everyday or anymore.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Let's cut the crap

I am pretty sure you've completely avoided the topic of this thread as you seem to do so often these days, instead choosing to turn the discussion into your own personal vendetta and slug fest. So be it. You are cut from a different cheese, not a different cloth. It's not that we're in two different worlds as much as you are in a world of your own. And your world is orthogonal to reality. That's why you'll always be down there and I'll always be up here. I look forward to your posts not as a source of information but as a source of humor. Humor is the best medicine. It's also something you seem to have in short supply. Can I make a suggestion, go out and get really drunk. Maybe that will loosen you up a bit.

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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avoided the topic?

Heck no, avoid is the last thing I would like to do. Ron brings many great topics to the pages here, and he allows for many different points of views to be made. The only downside I see is the fact that posters are decreasing monthly because of the high levels of trolling that take place here, and the desire for many readers to get a more informative value for their time.

Much of the content here doesn't raise much above the beginner hobbyist level compared to the Stereophile magazine, and the Stereophile Magazine is the starting-line for the hobbyist. Plus when posters like yourself can only flame at those beginner levels and show that you don't even have a stereo to discuss, this takes and has been taking, the wind out of the Stereophile forum sails. This has been brought up several times and more recently been pointed to as many are going other forums or only coming up as readers and not participants. Easy to go back and compare the numbers, as well easy to go back and review the content.

Geoff what you are doing is not building a hobby, but putting the death to one.

There are many who would be interested in these topics, but if they never rise above talk and insults the crowds will continue to drop and the interest lessen. We've all seen the results of the diminishing returns here. The benefits gained for the majority has reached a pivot point where the energy invested is not adding up to the losses.

On TuneLand we see success stories out weighing the bottom debate lines. Questions get answered because listeners are taking the time to do. Here you see so little doing that the forum has become un-balanced and after a few posts the interest is gone. It's almost like reading poorly executed audio vacation brochures. Reader comes up and checks it out, gets incomplete data, never gets introduced to the listening side of the hobby, and leaves. This forum almost never rises above the beginner pages of consumer compulsive buying. Sorry, but in a hobby of participation that is a death wish.

I could set up a camera in all the high end shops in Vegas, and one in just one of the hobby shops in town and count all of the high end audio shop visitors not adding up to one hobby shop. Talk without the walk my friend. No matter how you spin your presence here, telling high end audio listeners you haven't had a stereo in many years, with you making most the stir, only looks extremely weak for this forum.

Now you can spin on me or anyone here, but the facts are the facts. No one but an idiot wants to feel good about listening after reading someone who doesn't even own an in-room audio system talking about this hobby. It doesn't give any comfort to the readers that the number one quantity poster here has a VooDoo avatar and posts 1st grade insult pictures on threads.

I don't mind, in fact I'm excited, that people are logging out here and logging on TuneLand, but I think this hobby is stronger when logging on both. Stereophile forum has gone from a mutual meeting place to the participating size of a group of pre-teens gathering for a sunday football game in Billy's backyard.

So, go on and keep the portable cassette player rolling along with the trolling practices, but I doubt there are going to be many more Ron's being nice enough to interchange with you on any knowledgeable levels. I could be wrong, maybe there are more that choose to stay at the starting line in circular debates, but I have always thought of the hobby being a little more advanced than that.

just another walk in the park for me, I get to listen to my stereo now

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Allen Fant
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MG-

MG-
tell me about the gear in your current system(s) ?

Nellomilanese
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Re:

here's the thing Ron: vinyl just gets better and better the more money you throw at it....in leaps and bounds.
The difference between a 1k turntable and a 5k turntable is staggering...velvet black silence in the background!
Difference between a 1k Dac and a 5k dac? minimal...or should I say there is but only if you have a super transparent system and listen really really carefully!
The difference in turntables is like wooow...it hits you in the face!
Note: I like both formats and enjoy collecting both. Personal opinion is that if you spend the amount you did on dacs vs a better turntable...well the jump in sound quality with a 3-4k turntable would've been A LOT bigger. With dacs it's incremental in lack of a better word.
But that's just my opinion after spending countless days listening to systems anywhere from 5k to 1 mil around Europe's best dealers. I've even been to a few loudspeakers factories in Europe.
I write articles and reviews of high-end audio for a luxury magazine (not specialized...just luxury in general: boats, cars, watches ecc)

michael green
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?

Which Magazine do you write for?

Secondly, you made a comment that there is "velvet black silence in the background!". I have no problem with personal taste, but you do realize that the nature of recorded space is the opposite of your comment.

Again personal taste is cool and if someone wants to remove parts of the recorded space they certainly may, but this is probably why your having a lower success with your CD's.

You mentioned the recording "Faith" for example. There's zero black space on this recording regardless of format used. One can color things and remove them, but as a result, part of the info will come up missing, out of pitch, or even pitch shifting, if the recorded code is not tuned well to the systems audio code.

This hobby often says the sin of omission is the way to a revealing system. We have found that omissions lead to missing info and is a major reason why these systems aren't able to play a lot of music.

I'm not trying to debate or question your taste, just giving the side of the story from those who can play any recording successfully.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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There he goes again

Michael wrote,

"Geoff what you are doing is not building a hobby, but putting the death to one.

There are many who would be interested in these topics, but if they never rise above talk and insults the crowds will continue to drop and the interest lessen. We've all seen the results of the diminishing returns here. The benefits gained for the majority has reached a pivot point where the energy invested is not adding up to the losses."

I'm not trying to set the world on fire. I just want to start a flame in a few hearts. I'm pretty sure you still,don't see that's it's actually YOU who's the name caller and the one who refuses to discuss advanced audio topics. You refuse to believe or accept the possibility that there's someone in the room smarter than you are. I really like the way you think you're speaking for everyone else. That's so cute.

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

rrstesiak
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reply to N

N:

I agree with your observations on vinyl... I even had a disclaimer of sorts in my original post; however, for now I am having a lot of fun exploring the digital domain...but plan on revisiting vinyl in the future.

rrstesiak wrote:

1. vinyl (unless you want to spend $5,000 or more, then I will yield to the vinyl purists; of which I formally was...a similar argument can be made though if one spent >$5,000 on a killer DAC.)

Respectfully,

Ron

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Re: Michael

Hi Michael.
I write for Luxos magazine. It gets distributed all over the world. Articles sometimes end up on their website as well: http://www.luxos.com/contributors/nello-todica
I'm no way a professional reviewer, or writer. I write an article / month more or less, sometimes under different pen names.
Maybe you misunderstood me...what I meant by "black silence" is that quieter passages on songs are just that "quieter" on more expensive tables. And I wasn't referring to Faith album of course..you made the assumption since I was talking about that particular album in LP vs. Dvd.
I'm not gonna debate your assessment on omissions as I honestly don't know what you're talking about...i'm not that far down the "tuning" and audiophile hole yet :D

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Re: Ron

Ron i'll stay in tune with your progress in the digital domain. I like your down to earth approach to things.
I kinda' dropped the ball on digital and stopped at Oppo Bdp-103.
At the moment I kinda' wish I should've just go for a RP6 or RP8 Rega rather than the RP3 w Elys2 as I seem to somehow enjoy vinyl more.

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Unsolicited thought

Nellomilanese,

Just a thought for when it is time to replace your Elys2 cartridge. Consider stepping up to the Exact2. I have a P3-24 with an Elys2 and an RP3 with an Exact2. The improved bass response with the Exact2 is very noticeable. Additionally, if you have good power treatment, the external power supply with the RP6 is not terribly valuable. In a stereophile interview with Roy Gandy, he admits that the better the power in your house is, the less valuable the external power supply is so if you have system wide power treatment...

Your result won't be exactly the same as the RP6. The RP6 still has a superior platter, an aluminum sub platter and an aluminum brace but an upgrade to an Exact2 will narrow that gap quite a bit and at some point your Elys2 will need to be replaced.

michael green
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thanks & more

Hi Nellomilanese

Thanks for the info. Always good to learn a little about who the people are posting, and what their experiences are.

to the gang for reference

I guess I should also list our current Vinyl front end, so readers know that we don't talk about comparisons in the blind.

table- JR Transrotor DarkStar
arm- Jelco SA 750D
cartridge- Shelter 201

We're running this with.

phono stage- Audolici AVP 01
amp- Audolici I50
speakers- MGA Viola FS Chameleon, Jaton REAL, Audio Note ANe

acoustics- MGA/RoomTune
cable- Picasso & Bare Essence
platforms & tweaks- MGA/RoomTune

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Allen Fant
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MG-

MG-

can you list your current Digital Front ends as well?

Nellomilanese
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Re: Exact2

Thx for the feedback! That is my plan also....just wear out the Elys2 and then get the Exact2...and maybe the $200 aluminum sub-platter people rave about as an upgrade towards RP6 performance.

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